Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

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Originally Posted by Neela

oh rly? xD

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What are you trying to say? I don't see her arguing that people should kick anyone, she just stated a fact that some people do kick others. Are you now just misreading intentionally?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Enough with the silly strawman arguments. Absolutely no one here has suggested anything like kicking people who don't cast 100%. The only discussions about removing people from party have - from what I've seen - concerned people who literally stand afk or /follow the tank or are otherwise being intentionally useless to their party.

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Oh it definitely is being suggested if I had time I would give you examples but just read the posts, like, If I see a healer not dpsing I will vote kick, or you have to be casting all the time or you are being carried etc etc.Even other pepole coming in with an odd remark not opposed to dps have called it hostile or words like it. I'm not being meticulous here with wording but its there

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Originally Posted by Neela

my point is that im one of the less who's actually fine with healers who don't wanna dps - yours is to convince people that your opinion is the one and only way to play.

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There is only one optimal way to play, it's a fact, not an opinion. What you do in the light of that fact is really up to you. I'm just trying to argue for people to actually use their head a bit, logic and reason, instead of opinions and baseless assumptions.

Of course, you don't have to play optimally, many people don't. Even I don't but I sure as hell try my best. But when people intentionally play suboptimally, they should be ready to accept the consequenses. Some people accept you, some people don't, and you'll just have to live with it.

My personal experience is that people are much more accommodating towards you if you put an honest effort into your actions and try your best to be useful to the group. Sometimes that isn't enough if the results don't match the expectations, but there's not much we can do about it. Everyone makes their decisions individually about who they want to play with.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

There is only one optimal way to play, it's a fact, not an opinion. What you do in the light of that fact is really up to you. I'm just trying to argue for people to actually use their head a bit, logic and reason, instead of opinions and baseless assumptions.


My personal experience is that people are much more accommodating towards you if you put an honest effort into your actions and try your best to be useful to the group. Sometimes that isn't enough if the results don't match the expectations, but there's not much we can do about it. Everyone makes their decisions individually about who they want to play with.

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Well in my experience even if you try your still booted if u cant do it, everyone is more demanding of optimal play than ever before and focus is on healer dps, for the majority of instances now where before it used to be the odd content that couldnt be cleared without it

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Well in my experience even if you try your still booted if u cant do it, everyone is more demanding of optimal play than ever before and focus is on healer dps, for the majority of instances now where before it used to be the odd content that couldnt be cleared without it

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What you experience isn't a valid argument to bring on the table of any form of discussion. I could say in contrary that I've never experienced anyone getting booted for not being able to do it. Whose argument here holds more water as both state the opposite?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Thank you very much for your post but wonder if you actually read mine. Your entitled to your opinion ofc, but my views may differ. You will get lots of likes for that. :) Have a good day, being 'a true healer' whatever that is

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This isn't about getting likes madam. I was simply analyzing the way I play a healer which I think is the best way. Your views differ but be aware that you'll be called a lazy healer if you decide to play like this.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

What you experience isn't a valid argument to bring on the table of any form of discussion. I could say in contrary that I've never experienced anyone getting booted for not being able to do it. Whose argument here holds more water as both state the opposite?

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With respect your experience isnt mine, and I will bring to the table whatever experience I like or is that not an option as well? And if the next 2 people say its their experience does that make yours null and void? To lambdafish, you really can sit there and say that you can guarantee i was not booted for not putting in effort wow thats amazing you can read minds and situations retrospectively. and you have no idea what I do or how I am in agroup And to dement just cos you havent experinced something doesnt mean it doesnt exist and if my exrience is anecdotal then so is yours

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Originally Posted by Feyona

With respect your experience isnt mine, and I will bring to the table whatever experience I like or is that not an option as well?

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Experience or not; communication, effort, and a positive attitude will get you much further with a party than a "I play how I like" attitude. You may have been booted because you rubbed the party the wrong way or many other reasons, but I can guarantee you that you weren't booted for putting in effort as Lyrica would like you to.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

With respect your experience isnt mine, and I will bring to the table whatever experience I like or is that not an option as well?

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You can certainly bring to the table whatever experience you wish but it's a poor form for discussion. Anecdotal evidence is always to be taken with a grain of salt as your experience may not and likely doesn't represent the community as a whole. I can personally say that I've never seen a healer kicked for not DPSing in dungeons. I've never seen a healer kicked for not DPSing in Hard Mode trials. I've never seen a healer kicked for not DPSing in Extreme trials where the extra damage was unnecessary to clear and/or was not incredibly beneficial to skipping mechanics. That being said, there's no reason for a healer not to DPS in pretty much any of that content once their healing duties have been tended to.

There... now we have lots of anecdotal evidence floating around and it's now safe to confirm that healers are safe to play however they like in most content without fear of reprisal. This is why arguments aren't conducted from a point of "in my experience" because it's incredibly easy for my experience to refute your experience.

Wow. Over 60 pages. This topic keeps coming back, and for the life of me I don't get why.

When you're new, sure, take it easy, learn the fights, etc. No problem. But if you are perfectly capable of throwing out DPS, and you just refuse to because you don't feel like it, or you are clinging to some sort of principled stance that healers "shouldn't" DPS because they're called healers, then that's just bollocks. Having a green, instead of red or blue, icon next to your name does not entitle you to stand around doing nothing for 50% or more of a boss fight. Get over yourselves. If you have absolutely nothing to do in terms of healing, status cleansing, or defensive mitigation for several GCDs worth of time, and you spend those GCDs actually doing literally nothing (or just overhealing like there's no tomorrow), then yeah, you're kind of a lousy healer.

It's a bit hard to fathom people defending this. Standing around or doing the Moogle Dance because you have nothing better to do at that time and refuse to cast offensive magicks just because isn't a "playstyle." It's letting your party carry you, and disrespecting their time, and for what?

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Originally Posted by Saito_S

Wow. Over 60 pages. This topic keeps coming back, and for the life of me I don't get why.

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because people are bored and have nothing better to do than bicker like old grannies on this topic over and over...

Personally I think a lot of people's problems with Cleric Stance is the fact that they have no choice in the matter.
As others have said, very often as a healer you're going to find yourself with nothing to do because damage output from enemies is so miniscule (excluding Savage content obviously).
Whilst none of us can really say what we're supposed to be doing (since we're not the developers), it's clear that the only thing healers have at the moment to fill this gap is dps.

The only problem I've ever had with Cleric Stance is the fact that it results in all three healers feeling very similar. Having something to do during healing downtime and trying to maximize its upkeep is perfectly fine and makes the process much more engaging; the problem is when this exact same playstyle is then copied and pasted between three different jobs.

Whether you're a White Mage, a Scholar, or an Astrologian, every fight can be simplified to the same formula: place damage mitigation (Regens, Adloquium, Aspected Benefic, etc), place your DoTs, spam your high-potency filler move until party member's HP has been reduced to a point that they're about to die (if the enemy has survived long enough for such a thing to actually happen), use an oGCD to give the dying party member some HP, repeat.

There's very little variation between the three healer roles at their core, and I think this is one of the places problems arise from.

White Mage has...Regens? How unique. Like the other healer's versions of mitigation, this is placed on a single target. This means that it suffers from a 'set-and-forget' usage, where you simply place it on the target and that's it. You have no means of interacting or modifying these regens once they're placed, so you're left with nothing to do besides dps.

Scholar has shields, but they suffer from the same 'set-and-forget' usage. There's not much thought required in putting up shields, especially with Deployment Tactics now available. Again, you have no means of interacting with these shields, modifying them, or making them do anything other than wait to be removed. With no access to any abilities that can affect their mitigation, just like White Mages there's nothing left for them to do but dps. And with access to only two GCD mitigation abilities, you're rarely going to be dedicating more than one or two GCDs to mitigation because any subsequent actions would be more efficient if spent on DPS.
Fairy micromagement doesn't use personal GCD's, so I'm not considering them for now (because ultimately you're still going to have nothing to do during healing downtime, fairy or no fairy), not to mention that it's rare for micromanaging the Fairy's abilities to actually be necessary outside of extremely difficult content.

Astrologian has Draw, once every 30 seconds. This makes it feel slightly different to other healers, but being bottlenecked by a cooldown (albeit a very short one) means that you can't keep placing buffs on the party to fill healing downtime. Personally, I think the 'Draw' system has the potential to be a useful way to fill healing downtime, but the weight of Balance is much more than that of any other card that the system is just about pulling Balance, rather than making an active effort to find ways to support the party with whatever you Draw.

Personally, I think the only solution that will make everyone happy is actually allowing healers to have different playstyles based on their job/
Some examples of what I mean are:

Healer #1 (Like a White Mage / Astrologian) - All healing and regens, on-GCD support abilities to raise party dps/defense/etc during healing downtime.

Healer #2 - Same as all healers currently; switching stances allows for dps abilities to be utilized fully. They could maybe even give it abilities that are only accessible in 'Cleric Stance'. Their pet means that they unlike healers #1 and #2, they can still help with healing whilst dps'ing, but have no/little party support.

Healer #3 (Like Dark Knight but it's a healer?) - Heals whilst dealing damage, with like, absorb-type attacks.

Healer #4 (Like Scholar) - Focuses on damage mitigation, puts up shields and can use abilities to interact with them in ways that make them much more engaging than current (e.g abilities that can extend shield duration for lower mitigation, lower duration but higher mitigation, removes shields but has them restore any remaining HP mitigation on them, making them explode to deal damage, etc).

Obviously, Healer #1 and #3 can't exist in the game's current state; Healer #1 would either be functionally useless or extremely overpowered (See - Astrologian), and Healer #3 would break the game. Healer #2 is the entirety of the healing role currently, and Healer #4 is just Scholar with more interesting shields.
The point is that giving healer jobs more varied playstyles that all contribute to party dps during healing downtime - whether through supporting the party, or attacking the enemy, or w/e other things there could be - could stop players feeling so disappointed with the healer role.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Personally I think a lot of people's problems with Cleric Stance is the fact that they have no choice

The point is that giving healer jobs more varied playstyles that all contribute to party dps during healing downtime - whether through supporting the party, or attacking the enemy, or w/e other things there could be - could stop players feeling so disappointed with the healer role.

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This post is constructive, thank you for your effort. I do wish some of the other people that post on here would read what people are saying before they make assumptions. But yes, you may be right, it may be lack of choice, and I am not bothered how others play just wish healing was more valued as a role and maybe buffs and other stuff would fill the gaps. Otherwise the game is just dps and Ive seen at least 2 posts that said they may as well go dps.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

There is only one optimal way to play, it's a fact, not an opinion. What you do in the light of that fact is really up to you. I'm just trying to argue for people to actually use their head a bit, logic and reason, instead of opinions and baseless assumptions.

Of course, you don't have to play optimally, many people don't. Even I don't but I sure as hell try my best. But when people intentionally play suboptimally, they should be ready to accept the consequenses. Some people accept you, some people don't, and you'll just have to live with it.

My personal experience is that people are much more accommodating towards you if you put an honest effort into your actions and try your best to be useful to the group. Sometimes that isn't enough if the results don't match the expectations, but there's not much we can do about it. Everyone makes their decisions individually about who they want to play with.

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just to clear things up for you – I totally understand your and 99% of the coms thoughts and points and believe it or not I got all 3x healers as well on ilvl270 (whm is my 2nd cls after smn). I personally try to dps as well cause im bored if I wouldn't. That being said I turn to my posts in this discussion: I never said xtra dps is bad or healer shouldn't dps. I just said that I can understand people who choose healer/tank cls for the reason they don't want to focus on a max dps-rotation. It's not about optimal ways - never said it's optimal. The point is I just can't stand if someone trys to convince people that they have to do it their way no matter what.

On the other hand I can't understand why people start saying "a healer who doesn't dps is carried by the grp" or "if the healer doesn't dps I leave or kick vote him" – with that kind of mindset you are not better than the ones who are actually against dpsing on healer cls -> both opinions are just selfish and definitely not open minded. There is more than black and white f.e. the grey of laziness to give a 150% in every random run.



so long
Neela

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Originally Posted by Neela

There is more than black and white f.e. the grey of laziness to give a 150% in every random run.

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But no one is asking healers to give 150% effort. What's asked is to give as much effort as the rest of your team instead of only being meaningfully active 20% or less of the run. The whole point is, for a healer to contribute as much as their party members, they are required to DPS in most cases. Since the healing requirements are so low, if the healer doesn't DPS, they simply aren't contributing as much, which is not fair. What is asked for is equal contribution, no more, no less.

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Originally Posted by Neela

On the other hand I can't understand why people start saying "a healer who doesn't dps is carried by the grp" or "if the healer doesn't dps I leave or kick vote him" – with that kind of mindset you are not better than the ones who are actually against dpsing on healer cls -> both opinions are just selfish and definitely not open minded.

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If it is selfish to walk away from a group where someone is being intentionally selfish, then so be it. It takes a person wanting to be carried (yes, carried) to start the selfish act of not wanting to put up with them. People aren't in a group to be "open-minded", they're there to do a task.

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Originally Posted by Taika

What's asked is to give as much effort as the rest of your team

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than let's make a thread f.e. in the Brd section and blame all the Brds who don't use swiftsong or requiem on daily runs too hm? haven't seen people complaining about lazy Brds yet. Every cls can do more than most of the com actually do in random runs - but noone cares if they won't give those xtra-% but healer-dps... this is just hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

People aren't in a group to be "open-minded", they're there to do a task.

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they are there to do a task? after all it's a game right? im here to have fun - and at least for me, I decide what is "fun" for me. to please raiders/hardcore farmers desires or opinions how I have to do things – is far away from having fun at all - if that means im selfish than yeah im proud to be selfish.

But I see... we are running cycles and won't clear our minds to a point everybody will be satisfy or agree with - maybe we should stop this right here ^^

It's a significant problem when the optimal playstyle isn't the fun playstyle for a large amount of players. I think Connor brought up a very good point on this topic.
We have a DPS-focussed meta, but there is in fact room to allow for a less aggressive playstyle by introducing on-GCD buffs, and changing up encounter design to require more forms of support or making support more attractive. The game design in general won't change that everything you'd do should be aimed towards increasing group dps, the way you can contribute can definitely change, it might make balancing the jobs and encounters harder tho..

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Originally Posted by Neela

than let's make a thread f.e. in the Brd section and blame all the Brds who don't use swiftsong or requiem on daily runs too hm?

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I have literally used the example of a BRD refusing to sing in comparison to a healer who refuses to DPS in this very thread. For example here:

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Originally Posted by Taika

They're a hinderance to their party because they have the potential to bring this huge benefit to their group and they refuse to do so. Just like a BRD who refuses to sing when they could boost their caster DPS or their healer has died and needs MP is a hinderance to their group. Bard songs aren't required for clearing any content, either, but it doesn't make it any more acceptable to refuse singing.

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If a BRD player was to start a thread on DPS forums about how they shouldn't be required to sing, I can promise the reactions to that would be exactly the same than they are in this thread towards healers who refuse to DPS.

The main difference between the two is that somehow some people are actively defending a healer who argues refusing to DPS should be considered a valid play style (within the current meta), while you're very unlikely to find anyone to defend a BRD who refuses to sing. I've said it before:

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Originally Posted by Taika

What you don't get is, healers don't have any more valid playstyle options than any other job in the game. If a DRG (or literally any other job than a healer) would start a similar discussion about feeling too stressed about having to use their full rotation and all buffs, especially in the difficult content like Savage, and wishing to choose to use only half of their abilities instead because of that, absolutely no one would support that. But for some weird reason some people think we should accept that for healers - and healers only.

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+1 Vulc & Connor ^^

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Originally Posted by Taika

I have literally used the example of a BRD refusing to sing in comparison to a healer who refuses to DPS in this very thread.
If a BRD player was to start a thread on DPS forums about how they shouldn't be required to sing, I can promise the reactions to that would be exactly the same than they are in this thread towards healers who refuse to DPS.

The main difference between the two is that somehow some people are actively defending a healer who argues refusing to DPS should be considered a valid play style, while you're very unlikely to find anyone to defend a BRD who refuses to sing. I've said it before:

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yeah now we talking on a human lvl... if you already brought the Brd example up it seems I sadly missed that, my fault than - but you understand what im trying to say ya? everybody tries to fight for his opinion with a kind of tunnelview -> like I said im overdoing this discussion on purpose with not that serious examples just to find guys like Connor who come up with "neutral" arguments or thoughts. this is what I meant by "open-minded".

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Originally Posted by Neela

just to clear things up for you – I totally understand
On the other hand I can't understand why people start saying "a healer who doesn't dps is carried by the grp" or "if the healer doesn't dps I leave or kick vote him" – with that kind of mindset you are not better than the ones who are actually against dpsing on healer cls -> both opinions are just selfish and definitely not open minded. There is more than black and white f.e. the grey of laziness to give a 150% in every random run.



so long
Neela

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Exactly this and Ive said all the same things as you and even got the same replies. So its like starting thread from beginning again. :) It seems some want to enforce the dps thing, but they say oh no play how you like but you will be lazy, I will vote kick , you will be carried etc. and in all these posts its not changed. It kind of proves my point that healers being forced.

yeah but this topic as it is flys around since month, if not years ^^

there are other examples as well, where you can see that most of the raiders/farmes just care about efficiency/time. one of my favorites is that leafs/novices are being blamed for watching cutscenes in main-scenario dngs/dailys - great one ^^

There will always appear problems and different point of views if "casuals" meet "pros" you can just stay your ground and hope for the best. Else you ll get crazy ^^

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Originally Posted by Taika

I have literally used the example of a BRD refusing to sing in comparison to a healer who refuses to DPS in this very thread. For example here:



If a BRD player was to start a thread on DPS forums about how they shouldn't be required to sing, I can promise the reactions to that would be exactly the same than they are in this thread towards healers who refuse to DPS.

The main difference between the two is that somehow some people are actively defending a healer who argues refusing to DPS should be considered a valid play style (within the current meta), while you're very unlikely to find anyone to defend a BRD who refuses to sing. I've said it before:

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You cant compare a bard to a healer though because bard is dps and stays dps to sing. A better example would be an ast not using cards. Dps is a different role to healer it isnt one role, and the difference to me is like the difference between choosing a dps class to play or a healer. Dps IS a different playstyle, and would like that choice back. That was orinally intended in the design of the game. And I dont care if some want to dps or not but would like it optional

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You cant compare a bard to a healer though because bard is dps and stays dps to sing. A better example would be an ast not using cards. Dps is a different role to healer it isnt one role

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It's funny how you're always trying to define things based on an argument you're trying to make, with no consistency whatsoever. Please explain how singing is doing DPS and not playing a support - especially as singing certain songs literally lowers the BRD's DPS. Is it just because there's no special icon colour for support job in this game and thus a BRD stays as your definition of a DPS while singing, while a healer doesn't stay as a healer while doing DPS? :D

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I define the roles because I think people would like to choose a particular role to play. As Ive said before some hate dps and some hate healing. Scholar is a healer role there is no special icon because, it isnt necessarily a support same as all the other dps that have support capacity, it doesnt mean their role is support. Scholar can heal as well as any other healer

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I see you completely missed all my points, either intentionally or unintentionally. A BRD chooses to play a DPS, by your definition, so why should they, following your argument, be required to play "support role" (= sing)? Or why is not singing as BRD considered changing roles (from DPS to support) like DPSing as a healer is changing roles (from healer to DPS) in your logic? Why are you holding different standards for different jobs? Also this had nothing to do with SCH so I don't know why you brought that one up.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

As stated before cleric exists to remind you that you are going into a different role or all classes are hybrids and intended to be. This is not the case you are a healer in one stance and a dps in the other . Bard doesnt have to become a different role it is intended as part of the DPS role. You can support with different classes it doesnt mean your changing role 'support' is not changing role. Or ast woul be termed just a support

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So what you're claiming is, you're "changing roles" by clicking a button, and since a BRD doesn't have to click a button to sing, they're not changing roles. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. :D

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Originally Posted by Taika

It's funny how you're always trying to define things based on an argument you're trying to make, with no consistency whatsoever. Please explain how singing is doing DPS and not playing a support - especially as singing certain songs literally lowers the BRD's DPS. Is it just because there's no special icon colour for support job in this game and thus a BRD stays as your definition of a DPS while singing, while a healer doesn't stay as a healer while doing DPS? :D

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I define the roles because I think people would like to choose a particular role to play. As Ive said before some hate dps and some hate healing. Scholar is a healer role there is no special icon because, it isnt necessarily a support same as all the other dps that have support capacity, it doesnt mean their role is support. Scholar can heal as well as any other healer

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Originally Posted by Taika

It's funny how you're always trying to define things based on an argument you're trying to make, with no consistency whatsoever.


I see you completely missed all my points, either intentionally or unintentionally. A BRD chooses to play a DPS, by your definition, so why should they, following your argument, be required to play "support role" (= sing)? Or why is not singing as BRD considered changing roles (from DPS to support) like DPSing as a healer is changing roles (from healer to DPS) in your logic?

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As stated before cleric exists to remind you that you are going into a different role or all classes are hybrids and intended to be. This is not the case you are a healer in one stance and a dps in the other . Bard doesnt have to become a different role it is intended as part of the DPS role. You can support with different classes it doesnt mean your changing role 'support' is not changing role. Or ast woul be termed just a support

Nope, wrong again. Clicking cleric stance means you are switching your MND and INT stats. That's all.

In all of the dungeons around 28 and under, I can sit in cleric stance the entire time, never swapping out of it, and still keep tanks topped off with zero issues. The healing requirements are THAT minimal. I haven't "changed roles." I'm using both damage spells and healing spells. The damage spells have added kick because of the INT bonus.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Nope, wrong again. Clicking cleric stance means you are switching your MND and INT stats. That's all.

In all of the dungeons around 28 and under, I can sit in cleric stance the entire time, never swapping out of it, and still keep tanks topped off with zero issues. The healing requirements are THAT minimal. I haven't "changed roles." I'm using both damage spells and healing spells. The damage spells have added kick because of the INT bonus.

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Then you are a dps and not a healer, which actually proves my point rather than makes it 'wrong' Just because low content exists that dont need much healing doesnt make the fact that you go into cleric to become a dps a fact, cleric makes you a dps role.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Then you are a dps and not a healer, which actually proves my point rather than makes it 'wrong'

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You're a healer who is using their DPS abilities. Healer jobs are hybrid jobs in this game: they heal, DPS and buff. You're not changing from one job or a role to another, you're playing one job which has all three types of abilities.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Ah c'mn Taika...pls...

I thought we were way beyond this false statement... cleric was designed for solo leveling

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This is not true in the slightest. The game is designed to support healer DPS in group content (it's even required in for example Antitower) and even the official instructions (Hall of the Novice and the official Japanese FFXIV magazine) from the developers say healers are supposed to look for opportunities for DPS.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Healer jobs are hybrid jobs in this game:

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Ah c'mn Taika...pls...

I thought we were way beyond this false statement... cleric was designed for solo leveling –
the com made it part of the "main" tasks healer should workout in the end... ^^'

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Originally Posted by Taika

You're a healer who is using their DPS abilities. Healer jobs are hybrid jobs in this game: they heal, DPS and buff. You're not changing from one job or a role to another, you're playing one job which has all three types of abilities.

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I dont agree that healer is the same role as dps and even if it was intended to be, which I believe from numerous sources that it wasnt then I would be asking for a choice of roles to play

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Originally Posted by Feyona

As stated before cleric exists to remind you that you are going into a different role or all classes are hybrids and intended to be. This is not the case you are a healer in one stance and a dps in the other . Bard doesnt have to become a different role it is intended as part of the DPS role. You can support with different classes it doesnt mean your changing role 'support' is not changing role. Or ast woul be termed just a support

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AST is defined as a Heal/Support, just as BRD is defined as DPS/Support. That doesn't change Taikas argument that when playing songs you are performing a function secondary to your job. The bit about songs that reminds you that you are going into a different role is the fact that it lowers your DPS while in the stance. The reason for this is because this toolkit makes BRD more versatile and able to perform multiple "roles", the drawbacks on cleric stance exist for the exact same reason.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

AST is defined as a Heal/Support, just as BRD is defined as DPS/Support. That doesn't change Taikas argument that when playing songs you are performing a function secondary to your job. The bit about songs that reminds you that you are going into a different role is the fact that it lowers your DPS while in the stance. The reason for this is because this toolkit makes BRD more versatile and able to perform multiple "roles", the drawbacks on cleric stance exist for the exact same reason.

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+1

this is way more neutral than those false-statements ^^

It's like the previous couple of pages never existed.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

It's like the previous couple of pages never existed.

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yeah thats what I thought as well ^^'

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Originally Posted by Neela

+1

this is way more neutral than those false-statements ^^

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Yes I get the extra support is required, and that all classes have them but not one of the other classes have to play a completely different role with different skill set, mindset, and playstyle to support, I play ast, when Im using cards I dont need to change role, I am still healing with the same skills I use as a healer. The argunent that support is a different role is debatable and sorry that was meant towards lambdafishes comment not yours :)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Then you are a dps and not a healer, which actually proves my point rather than makes it 'wrong' Just because low content exists that dont need much healing doesnt make the fact that you go into cleric to become a dps a fact, cleric makes you a dps role.

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Just because you're saying words doesn't make them correct.

"You're a dps and not a healer..." No, that's not correct. I am a healer using my entire toolkit. Stone heavies the mob and makes them move more slowly. Aero applies a dot. Meanwhile the tank takes a trivial amount of damage. Cure tops them off.

This is BASIC.

I don't have to do any of that with cleric stance switched on. In fact, I've seen plenty of healers apply stone without using cleric stance.

"Cleric makes you a dps role..." Nnnnnnno, it doesn't. It swaps your INT and MND and gives you a damage bonus. That is literally all it does. It doesn't SWITCH OFF your healing spells. It makes them less effective. But if you're in content where healing requirements are trivial, even that "less effective" cure can be enough.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Just because you're saying words doesn't make them correct.

"You're a dps and not a healer..." No, that's not correct.

This is BASIC.

I don't have to do any of that with cleric stance switched on. In fact, I've seen plenty of healers apply stone without using cleric stance.

"Cleric makes you a dps role..." Nnnnnnno, it doesn't. It swaps your INT and MND and gives you a damage bonus. That is literally all it does. It doesn't SWITCH OFF your healing spells. It makes them less effective. But if you're in content where healing requirements are trivial, even that "less effective" cure can be enough.

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You cannot hardly heal when in cleric same as a summoner cant heal effectively. Slightly less effectively is an understement. That is because you are NOT meant to heal as a summoner. Same as healer is not meant to dps in that healer role, and visa versa. And I do mean heal in the sense of the word like summoner being able to through 18k crit heals like my wmg does and yes its fine if u want o throw a dot in your chosen role To add to that cleric disabled in pvp, think broil is 100 and something I can dps yes but its not effective. Does give you something to do though and if cleric were disabled you can still contribute

While I understand everyone's comparisons between Bards using songs and healers using Cleric Stance, I don't think it's an accurate comparison.

A Bard is - first and foremost - a dps. This is why Bards are actively enouraged to not use Ballad or Paeon unless absolutely necessary.
The damage penalties from songs has been lowered in the past, so this isn't as large a bottleneck to their dps as it was, and for all we know the damage penalties could be removed in 4.0.
A Bard that sings is not performing a function secondary to their job because singing doesn't stop or alter their dps in any way other than lowering it. And it's this fact that means you don't want to be using these songs unless in a life-or-death situation. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if future songs continue the trend of being oGCD so they infringe even less upon Bard's dps. All DPS have their own forms of party support, and whilst Bard has a bit more than others, it isn't enough for them to be considered any less of a dps than any other job. Nobody is going to want to take a Bard that is good at support but bad at dps, and they wouldn't be expected to, because a Bard is a dps. If songs were more involved then it would be a good comparison, but you don't need to manage them at the level you should be managing Cleric Stance and it's related aspects (awareness of party HP, incoming damage, boss difficulty, incoming mechanics, etc).

A Bard sings Foe Requiem solely because it gives a dps boost. It wouldn't matter whether it was a song, an oGCD or a normal attack, it would continue being used because it increases dps. It's nothing to do with their 'role' as a support-oriented dps, it's simply to do with the fact that it increases party dps. Likewise, other support abilities like Ballad, Paeon, and the old version of The Warden's Paean, will always be avoided whenever possible because the Bard's ultimate goal is always to maximize their dps, and they can't do that while singing anything other than Requiem. A Bard won't choose songs that infringe upon their role unless a situation arises where their dps is put in jeopardy without songs that lower dps, such as the potential of a tank going down and the Bard getting hate.
The point is that a Bard's songs are almost always used for party dps, not because they're under any obligation to 'support' the party. Just like a Machinist will always use Hypercharge; not because they're under any obligation to 'support' the party, but because it increases their and the party's dps.

Not to mention that those who dislike having to support the party as a Bard can change to a less support oriented dps like Monk; for dps, there's variety in their playstyles. Obviously, there are a lot of aspects of homogenization that exist for dps as well, but this is a different point for a different thread


Singing as a Bard requires pressing a single button. It's another 'set-and-forget' mechanic that you have very little tools to manipulate or modify or interact with outside of a single 180-second cooldown. Once it's done you can go back to your main priority of dealing as much damage as possible.


For a Healer, however, it's very easy to heal too much. Healing too much obviously isn't ever desirable; you end up using time and resources that don't need to be used.
Unlike a Bard, who can't complete their main focus until the enemy is dead, a Healer's main focus is easily fulfilled during most fights.
Because healers have no tools to reinforce the party's dps like a Bard does, they have no choice but to utilize the only tools they have that won't result in overhealing, their dps abilities.
A Healer isn't magically changing to dps when they use Cleric Stance, obviously. Their main goal to keep the party alive is always their priority. But they have no abilities that are supplementary to this role; their GCD abilities are always either healing, or damage.

Unlike a Bard, who spends just 1.5 seconds every few minutes to sing, a healer must make a conscious effort upon using Cleric Stance to both maximize their dps and their healing output, whilst buffing the party, ensuring they heal only what they need to, etc, etc.

Now, like I said in my previous post, there isn't anything inherently wrong with Cleric Stance or having to dps as a healer. Having to move your awareness from a single enemy to the raid as a whole whilst still keeping the party healed is fun and feels rewarding.
I know I'm repeating myself, but as I said, the problem is that there is no variation on this playstyle between any of the three healers.

Giving certain healers the ability to contribute to party dps through different means than dps keeps everyone happy. Those who enjoy the current dual-nature of healing can still enjoy moving between offensive and healing stances, whilst those who'd prefer an alternative playstyle can also actually do so now. This would also mean that people who'd like to have an alternative, less offensive playstyle, can still do so without having to ignore large parts of their toolkit or face contributing less than others of the same role.

With all the talk of the 'revamped battle system' for 4.0, I think this is the perfect opportunity for them to look into adding more varied playstyles between healers.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes I get the extra support is required, and that all classes have them but not one of the other classes have to play a completely different role with different skill set, mindset, and playstyle to support, I play ast, when Im using cards I dont need to change role, I am still healing with the same skills I use as a healer. The argunent that support is a different role is debatable and sorry that was meant towards lambdafishes comment not yours :)

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Its all semantics really whether or not support is a role or not. I've said this so many time in so many threads that roles are fluid in this game. BRDs lower their DPS to aid in TP and MP regen, PLDs have access to healing skills and party mitigation skills, NINs have enmity reducing abilities, WARs are identified as DPS tanks, and healers have access to cleric stance and DPS skills. It doesn't matter what your definition of a role is, because the definition of every role is to do your best within the confines of your skillset. The way you play SCH is to mitigate, heal, and use skills like rouse to open up windows in which you can go into cleric stance and throw up DoTs and shadowflare, that is using SCHs skillset the way it is designed regardless of the fact that it is a healer (unsure on the other two, but you can do the same thing with regen and aspected benefic).

Healers are designed in a way that allows for gaps in healing, this is so that they can do mechanics, or if they don't need to do mechanics then they can do something else (whether it be mitigating, using cards or DPSing), there is no "playstyle choice" there, it is how healing in this game is designed, just as DPS jobs are designed to be played a certain way but people can choose to spam impulse strike.

I won't kick you for not DPSing, but that doesn't make it the correct way to play