New Jobs Gated Behind Completion of 2.0 Story?

Let's be realistic here.... A new player picking up the game on the expansion isn't going to drop the game because the job they wanted to play is gated behind the main story line. They'll drop it most likely when they will realize that already 2/3rds of the current available content is pointless and obsolete. The main story line can be completed in what... a weeks worth of game play. Then they'll jump on the new jobs and play the new expansion stuff instead of wasting time on old 2.0. The rest of the 2.0 stuff can be skipped, heck even the the none story dungeon can be skipped. You can thank the lazy vertical progression design that SE decided to use.

Rogue not a starting class, you can only play it closer to starting if you start in Limsa otherwise you locked from it until you complete certain amount of the story when you get the airship pass.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

There's a difference between having ONLY something and being DRIVEN by something. Final Fantasy does have both elements, however, it is DRIVEN by story while GAMEPLAY takes a side seat. XIV is no different in this matter. Even Yoshi has mentioned they have opted for XIV to be driven by lore and story.

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And they can do that, just so long as they balance it out with gameplay in between. I myself disliked the last stretch of cutscenes in 2.55 as it was just cutscenes. There wasn't an instance where I got to enjoy the events, all I could do was sit back and watch my character be a completely numpty.

2.55 spoilers

I get that we couldn't fight due to our lack of a weapon, however using the ROG/NIN quests as an example, fighting back isn't always the only way. We could have escaped by running, hiding in certain spots so we're not seen, etc. They could even have explained why none of us could teleport during the unfortunate event, too.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

People keep assuming that all new players think this way. Yes, the new jobs look cool and all. We get this, but who's to say that they won't enjoy some of the original jobs offered? Heck, they can be placeholders until they reach what they really want to do. Is there a chance that they will be turned off from this? Yes. But the chance also applies to the other side of the spectrum. Consider both sides and not just one.

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Even assuming that new players don't care about the new jobs, the question remains: What reason does a newbie have for buying the expansion? It's clear that SE WANTS newbies to buy the expansion. The existence of the ARR/Heavensward combo pack is a clear indicator of that. This is not an expansion being marketed solely toward existing players.

As it stands, though, a newbie would be a fool to do so; they have no idea if they're going to enjoy the game enough to play until they finish all of the ARR Main Scenario. And, from what we know of it so far, the expansion offers very little to anyone that has not done so. The opportunity to play as Au Ra is pretty much the only "newbie-appealing" thing that has not yet been stated to be locked behind Main Scenario.

As has been stated, an expansion should have plenty of content gated behind progress - but it should also have plenty of content to encourage new folks to pick it up, as well. Right now, there are three kinds of newbies who would bother with the ARR/Heavensward combo pack:
- Uninformed newbies who assume that they'll be able to play around with the cool features advertised on the box. These folks may well be justifiably pissed when they find out the truth, and will hopefully make smarter purchasing decisions in the future.
- Final Fantasy fanatics who love everything Final Fantasy and are confident that they'll be playing the game for as long as it takes to squeeze every drop out of both ARR and its expansion. Most of these, though, are probably already playing.
- Wealthier folks who honestly don't care about the extra 20$; even if they play for a week and then quit they don't even think about the extra expenditure.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Spoiler

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Well, if it helps,

Players can't teleport while aggroed, and if we consider the situation in Ul'dah to be akin to a dungeon instance, teleportation would be disabled altogether.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Rogue not a starting class, you can only play it closer to starting if you start in Limsa otherwise you locked from it until you complete certain amount of the story when you get the airship pass.

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So level 15 versus level 50 and a gear check.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Rogue not a starting class, you can only play it closer to starting if you start in Limsa otherwise you locked from it until you complete certain amount of the story when you get the airship pass.

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This here was pretty dumb and lazy on SE's end. Not willing to take time to make Rogue a select starter class just because you don't want to take time to make sure quest that guides you to the Rogue's Guild instead of the others.

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Originally Posted by Zplinter

So level 15 versus level 50 and a gear check.

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The gear check is an assumption which we can reasonably doubt. I think it would be more constructive to use this thread to ask Square Enix how they are going to do about the 2.1-2.55 main story content that is all compressed into level 50, in terms of progression for a absolute new character.

Maybe they've already solved that problem. In which case the whole argument against gating new jobs becomes moot.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

The gear check is an assumption which we can reasonably doubt. I think it would be more constructive to use this thread to ask Square Enix how they are going to do about the 2.1-2.55 main story content that is all compressed into level 50, in terms of progression for a absolute new character.

Maybe they've already solved that problem. In which case the whole argument against gating new jobs becomes moot.

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Right now, we are operating under the assumption that Yoshi P's statement that you will need to complete the Main Scenario before you can unlock the new jobs means that, yes, new players will need to complete all of the dungeons and trials that are a part of the Main Scenario. As this includes Steps of Faith, which has an average ilvl requirement of 90, we can conclude that in addition to completing the Main Scenario, new players will need to gear up their characters to this ilvl.

All kinds of things may become moot if SE has some Master Plan that we don't know about - but we can only discuss the things we DO know. Right now, from what we know, it's looking pretty darned newbie-unfriendly, and that's what all this concern is all about.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

hmm...

Dunno if this was mentioned before but, at the Marauder's guild, isnt there a flag with 2 guns crossed? There are even NPC downstairs practicing with some muzzles... that could pretty much be the Machinist spot... and would be in Limsa...

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2 guns crossed is already the logo for the Musketeers (even if not ingame yet). The Machinists get another logo.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

People keep assuming that all new players think this way. Yes, the new jobs look cool and all. We get this, but who's to say that they won't enjoy some of the original jobs offered? Heck, they can be placeholders until they reach what they really want to do. Is there a chance that they will be turned off from this? Yes. But the chance also applies to the other side of the spectrum. Consider both sides and not just one.

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New people DO think that way.

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Originally Posted by SummerSkye

You are entitled to your opinion. If this is how you feel, go play an "american" MMO like Wildstar. It has a pretty overworld, too. This game is a giant THANK YOU to those of us who have loved the Final Fantasy series since the first famicom/NES game. This series has always been driven by storylines first. If you choose to buy and play FFXIV, you have no right to ask them to bypass their vision of the game for your personal tastes in video games.If anything, I would like 10 more hours of story and I refuse to skip a single cutscene or line of text because you believe it isn't as important as gameplay.

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Can you please put on your brain a second and keep the insults low? Thank you. Can you not understand that some people enjoy FFXIV for its Gameplay/Raids/Challenging Content/Character Models? No? Yes?

Please think a little before you say something ridiculous =)

That is like saying: Why not go play CALL OF DUTY!!!

They are completely different games. You do not represent the developers nore their opinions, Square "WANTS" to make money, its a business. Your suggestion would be a VERY bad business decision. It could even hurt their company name by shooing off customers.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Now lets use our brains for a second ok?


Me: "Talks about how awesome of a time he has had in X Game."

Friend: "Wow, that sounds like a great game! You seem to be having a lot of fun in this game, and the new content sounds awesome! They are raising the level cap so I have a chance to play with you right?"

Me: "Pauses... reddens.."

Friend: "Whats wrong?"

Me: "Sorry, but I won't be able to play with you for awhile."

Friend: "Uhm.. but that sounds ridiculous, why?"

Me: "*Huge Breathe..* First you have to complete all the story content, then you have to get a certain ilvl, then after 50 you need to complete about 150-180 more quests, even more then you had to do to level 50. Then after that you have to complete the level 50-60 quests all whilst playing with pugs and new players since nobody really needs to do most of that content anymore."

Friend: ".... Enjoy your game man."

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What a nice friend you are. Not even want to party with him in the dungeons or helping him in the non-instanced story fights or craft him gear he is missing.

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Originally Posted by Felis

What a nice friend you are. Not even want to party with him in the dungeons or helping him in the non-instanced story fights or craft him gear he is missing.

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If he or she wants to craft (I hate crafting.) he or she can do it himself.

I do help my friends with dungeons though. Even buy them gear, however I like to be forward and honest, not lie to my friends about how boring and silly the story is. However you and everyone else knows that you can't ALWAYS be there and ALWAYS playing with said person.

I can understand you wanting to lie to your friends, however I'm simply not that kind of person. =)

Oh? Your not? I'm simply putting words in your mouth like you did me, enjoy that btw!

Point is: I don't like sugarcoating stuff like most people do.

http://i.imgur.com/szoVKeB.png

Looks like this is a job for Paperb--I mean Hero!

Oh man, Can you imagine how much story i'd miss if this quest was completely culled and burned? I love searching for tiny small objects! I'm glad there are so many of these insignificant quests in the main storyline or I would def miss out!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

http://i.imgur.com/szoVKeB.png

Looks like this is a job for Paperb--I mean Hero!

Oh man, Can you imagine how much story i'd miss if this quest was completely culled and burned? I love searching for tiny small objects! I'm glad there are so many of these insignificant quests in the main storyline or I would def miss out!

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without be insulting, seriously dude, why are you even playing the game if you don't like the quest of it?

by the way the example you show is the one where we must find the bomb that was hidden by the imperial for blow the place.... yeah not heroic! by the way, we are not heroic, we simply are at right time at the right moment, we did become heroes, not because we did choose it, but because fate did decide it!

indeed we will not refuse to do it (why we will play if we do refuse to be the main character) but before be a hero.... we are advanturer, the handyman for anybody that can pay us... we are nothing of glorious, and we never do it alone! we are always helped. i think your trouble lie into the fact that you want to be a god more than a hero, hero are rarely all white.

just like this: "for protect something it often ask to destroy something else." when you did fight for eorzea and did kill dozen of imperial, you was the destroyer of the imperial. all of this for say, that you must really take sometimes for reconsider what you think that our character are.

we are mercenaries! accept it....

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

without be insulting, seriously dude, why are you even playing the game if you don't like the quest of it?

by the way the example you show is the one where we must find the bomb that was hidden by the imperial for blow the place.... yeah not heroic!

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Huh? I'm still looking for these crates, and barely read the dialogue. Its not like I was in danger or had feelings to the story at all.

Simple: Gameplay, Models, Role-play.

Playing MMOs for the story is bad, because what do you do when the story ends?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I do help my friends with dungeons though. Even buy them gear, however I like to be forward and honest, not lie to my friends about how boring and silly the story is. However you and everyone else knows that you can't ALWAYS be there and ALWAYS playing with said person.

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You seem to be stuck on this, so tell me, what are some good examples of gameplay they cannot party with you on?

Since you have repeatedly distinguished 'story' from 'gameplay', please don't include "seeing person in cutscenes" as part of your examples.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

You seem to be stuck on this, so tell me, what are some good examples of gameplay they cannot party with you on?

Since you have repeatedly distinguished 'story' from 'gameplay', please don't include "seeing person in cutscenes" as part of your examples.

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Content that matters, high end content.

Fun Dungeons?

Hard Dungeons?

Loot?

End-Game Gameplay?

Getting your characters appearance gear? Appearance?

Glamour?

Here is what I care about:

Replayability>Appearance>Gameplay>Content>Roleplay>Grinding>Story>Leveling

In that order.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Content that matters, high end content.

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So you want them to be given max level as soon as they join? You want to eliminate the MSQs when the game is specifically story driven? All MMOs have quests such as these in them, but this one just has a deeper story behind why you're doing it. Skip cutscenes if you don't care, that speeds it up, or go play another game that doesn't focus on story.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Huh? I'm still looking for these crates, and barely read the dialogue. Its not like I was in danger or had feelings to the story at all.

Simple: Gameplay, Models, Role-play.

Playing MMOs for the story is bad, because what do you do when the story ends?

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you create your own story, we call this roleplay... the story is there for help us to give us a world with deepth... the gameplay is here for help us to feel the world.... without story, lore, the gameplay will have no meaning, often even the choice of the skill we can use are tie to the lore. why the ninja can only use 3 mudra? because we are missing the next mudra and use it is not something easy.
why do we get the bunny when we do a skill between our mudra? because we did loose our focus and can't use the spell we was trying to do.

i think you need to reconsider what you think is the mmorpg. because when the story of the world is ended, that when start our story!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Replayability>Appearance>Gameplay>Content>Roleplay>Grinding>Story>Leveling

In that order.

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ok, i will be hard, why are you even playing FF14 where the story is the most important? even the fact that the raid of bahamut are link together is tie to a story... even this end game content is driven by the story that put a end to the cataclysm that we did had at the end of the V1....

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

you create your own story, we call this roleplay... the story is there for help us to give us a world with deepth... the gameplay is here for help us to feel the world.... without story, lore, the gameplay will have no meaning, often even the choice of the skill we can use are tie to the lore. why the ninja can only use 3 mudra? because we are missing the next mudra and use it is not something easy.
why do we get the bunny when we do a skill between our mudra? because we did loose our focus and can't use the spell we was trying to do.

i think you need to reconsider what you think is the mmorpg. because when the story of the world is ended, that when start our story!

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Lore is a bit different then "Story". They are completely different things. I actually care about the lore of the game, the story though that isn't set in stone is meaningless unless it changes the lore.


Edit: It seems I can't make anymore posts today.

Levels are something that needs completely removed from MMOs, they do nothing for the game but make content irrelevant. MMOs need to focus on horizontal rather then vertical progression and remove things like ilevels as well and focus on lore and replay-able player-made content rather then quests.

I am sure you disagree, but I am an old MMO player, and that is my feelings on it.

By the way, doing a quest is not anything like an RPG. =) In fact its the opposite, for role playing is playing the role as yourself and the story (especially 2.55) takes that away from you completely. The game is playing FOR YOU.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I applaud SE for actually making the story integrated into the game instead of something totally pointless and a chore to work for.

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That is exactly what I think it is, a chore. It actually takes away the feeling of being immersed in the world by shoving you into instances and telling you how to play your character, the exact opposite of what an RPG should do.

I guess your work in the world actually changing it is "Garbage"! I can't wait to play my next Pen/Paper RPG and my GM takes control of my character and plays it for me, I guess thats now "Roleplaying!"

Fun Fun Fun!

MMORPG - Full acronym Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (Or Mostly Men Online Role Playing Girls)

Why do so many people completely forget, drop, or ignore the second half of that acronym? Final Fantasy is mostly focused on the RPG games, its what they are known for. Graphics, Story, and unique combat/level systems. I applaud SE for actually making the story integrated into the game instead of something totally pointless and a chore to work for. I played WoW and there was no discernible story in that at all. What little there was became buried in walls of text. This game is more for the FF fans than the MMO fans. Sorry if you were under the wrong impression.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Lore is a bit different then "Story". They are completely different things. I actually care about the lore of the game, the story though that isn't set in stone is meaningless unless it changes the lore.

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*sighs* lore = story.... what did happend at the end of the 2.55 become the lore for the 3.0.... seriously stop you are becoming ridicule there. all the event we had until the end of the 2.55 was tie, everything that did happend was guiding us to that moment. everything we have done was tie to that. the domians, the primordial, the fact that we have become soo important for the Eorzea, the creation of the cristal brave,....everything is part of the lore, everything will not change because it's the story! it's the lore, it's the world of FF14!

you can't simply say, this don't count because it don't interest you, even the even at the end of the 2.4 with the bomb in the cerulean facility was deeply tie to what did happend later. seriously dude.... did you read any of the story soo far for say that the story we had had no impact?

even the small talk of some random npc can have a lot of importance, like the talk of the guard after the 2.55 giving us a looot of information about all the event we did not seen.

because you don't like this don't means it's not important, it's more sad to see that you did miss the importance of the story.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

By the way, doing a quest is not anything like an RPG. =) In fact its the opposite, for role playing is playing the role as yourself and the story (especially 2.55) takes that away from you completely. The game is playing FOR YOU.

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Actually, Role Playing means you play the role of a character, meaning the Warrior of Light in this case. You play out their role, not how you would do it, but the role that was meant for them

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

Actually, Role Playing means you play the role of a character, meaning the Warrior of Light in this case. You play out their role, not how you would do it, but the role that was meant for them

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I think the poor man is too used to the Sandbox garbage and calls that an RPG... This is also a JRPG which kinda has a category of its own for a reason. Sorry to see this is lost on you dude.

(reads the response)

*facepalm*

P&P - ultimate sandbox RP I agree. This is nothing like that. It's not a choose your own adventure tell tale game. There are other games for that. Mass Effect, Walking Dead, SWtOR, etc. This is not that kind of game. If I want that experience, I will go play those games. Sorry I enjoy this game for what it is, not what I think it should be because I know better than the people making the game. It must frustrate you to no end watching movie and not being able to change it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ok, i will be hard, why are you even playing FF14 where the story is the most important? even the fact that the raid of bahamut are link together is tie to a story... even this end game content is driven by the story that put a end to the cataclysm that we did had at the end of the V1....

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Honestly, I'm not playing this game for the story only a little because 2.55, everything else is better. I've been playing since Phase 3 so at least the game is good enough to make this the 3rd longest MMO I've played.

I mean come on now...While there are lore heads, the main part of the MMO is the Gameplay. TERA had a good story going in my opinion still does, so it's a bonus for me. [I was half and half with it.]
Gameplay the best I've ever played. That's what keeps me going. Storyline will never save a game, no matter how good it is in a MMO because a lot of people do not care for it and even
if they do, you need more than storyline alone to keep a MMO going.
[This is just my opinion with it, not even going to agree/disagree with Nektulous because all he does is guns blazin' at everyone.]
But the thing is everyone is entitled to their opinions and likes...While I think the amount of silly quests there is are ridculous...It's a MMO.
I dislike it sometimes but I mean after a while, you get use to it...it's in EVERY MMO. There's nothing new here.

Also is 2.55 didn't snag you into the games storyline then even I'm surprised. It's gotten into a 360 turn for me...and now I'm into it.

Added: Also, don't be silly and remove all the story/random quest...Some people actually do not mind the grab and go quests! Just because you hate it doesn't mean all else does!
Don't like? Skip it like I do and many others and enjoy other aspects of the game.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I guess your work in the world actually changing it is "Garbage"! I can't wait to play my next Pen/Paper RPG and my GM takes control of my character and plays it for me, I guess thats now "Roleplaying!"

Fun Fun Fun!

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Acting for films and plays, you're playing the role of a certain character and you don't stray from what's already written out for you. That is the kind of role playing most JRPGs go down, they have the one story written out, and you play the role of the lead character.

If you want the role playing of Pen/Paper, you can go into your text role playing, or play another game that lets you believe you have control by giving you a couple choices, but all in all still has complete control of your character as the paths are already written out for you to play

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

Acting for films and plays, you're playing the role of a certain character and you don't stray from what's already written out for you. That is the kind of role playing most JRPGs go down, they have the one story written out, and you play the role of the lead character.

If you want the role playing of Pen/Paper, you can go into your text role playing, or play another game that lets you believe you have control by giving you a couple choices, but all in all still has complete control of your character as the paths are already written out for you to play

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Ah the illusion of choice. One of the first things I teach any aspiring GM.

Players need to feel in charge, but in the end... they're all dancing to my cadence.

The story is the fundamental underlying feature that holds the whole game together. It's what distinguishes one game from another. And it's the biggest draw that gets people to choose to play a game, as without it, there really wouldn't be anything worth doing. Without story, we'd be just randomly bashing one meaningless nameless mob after another for no reason except that it's there.

I absolutely agree that it's vital for all players to go through the entire story line. And that the expansion's story should continue on from where the existing story leaves off, meaning the existing story needs to be a prerequisite for it. I don't, however, see any reason for it being a prerequisite for unlocking the expansion's jobs.

It seems as though the job quests being located in Ishgard is the only reason they're locked that way, but it doesn't explain why SE is choosing to put them there. There have been plenty of indicators that Machinist was going to be in Limsa Lominsa, and the most natural place to put Astrologian is at that observatory in Coerthas. I'm not as sure where Dark Knight would go, but SE could come up with something. It seems more like they're being pushed into Ishgard because SE wants to gate them behind the story rather than that they're gated behind the story because they're there.

This isn't a matter of the story saying the jobs are in Ishgard so we have to get there first before we can learn them. It's a matter of SE deciding we should get there first, so that's where they're being placed.

(Nor is it the first instance of the story seeming a bit contrived to fit where SE wanted to place something. The Rogue storyline would have fit far better in Ul'dah than it does in Limsa, but it's in Limsa presumably just because initially Ul'dah had the guilds for 3 battle classes and Limsa had 2.)

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I can understand you wanting to lie to your friends, however I'm simply not that kind of person. =)

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And yet you freely admit you'll lie to them about how many quests there are after Praetorium. Which means now you're lying to us. Why are people still listening to your bull****?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

And yet you freely admit you'll lie to them about how many quests there are after Praetorium. Which means now you're lying to us. Why are people still listening to your bull****?

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I have been done with him, he says "Stop insulting" but constantly says "Can we use our brains" all day so screw it.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I have been done with him, he says "Stop insulting" but constantly says "Can we use our brains" all day so screw it.

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I mean of other people, I could care less if someone attempts to insult me actually. I am defending others if you have noticed. =P

Use your brain isn't really an insult. Its my way of saying: "Look at it from this prospective." except in a much meaner way.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

And yet you freely admit you'll lie to them about how many quests there are after Praetorium. Which means now you're lying to us. Why are people still listening to your bull****?

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First of all, your not my friend nore are you my ally. There are also almost as much quests after that then they have before. Or at least close. When your skipping through these things it all kind of blends together though.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...uide/db/quest/
I mean seriously. "LOOK"

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

The story is the fundamental underlying feature that holds the whole game together.

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No, i'm pretty sure thats game-play. Otherwise SWTOR would be more popular then this game. It has much better stories. However game-play, instancing and everything else leaves much to be desired.

Its too bad though that it became a game where you got to high level then quit. :(

I never understood why people rag on this game's storytelling. I understand some of the filler arcs were contrived, but really...I paid close attention to all Main Scenario dialogue.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If the expansion was nothing more than a lengthening of the story, then what you say would make sense. Of course they would just call it 2.6, and not an expansion.

They don't have to level to 50 to get to Mor Dhona, or the two cities other than their starter city, or start a different class, or most other features of the game that aren't end game content. Playing a new level 30 job and flying mounts shouldn't be lumped into end game content gating.

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Just wanted to point out that WoW (you know, the biggest MMO in history) gated its first new class AND flying mounts behind high level content. You couldn't play a Death Knight unless you had a level 55 character (near enough the original level cap) and you couldn't fly in Outland or Northrend until you went through the majority of the content in those regions and unlocked the training manual at 68 and 78 respectively. Why exactly are you arguing on behalf of new players when this is nothing new?

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I never understood why people rag on this game's storytelling. I understand some of the filler arcs were contrived, but really...I paid close attention to all Main Scenario dialogue.

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I just don't think such filler should be part of the main story, but side-quests that unlock as you do it. As they are pretty much things anyone can do really.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Just wanted to point out that WoW (you know, the biggest MMO in history) gated its first new class AND flying mounts behind high level content. You couldn't play a Death Knight unless you had a level 55 character (near enough the original level cap) and you couldn't fly in Outland or Northrend until you went through the majority of the content in those regions and unlocked the training manual at 68 and 78 respectively. Why exactly are you arguing on behalf of new players when this is nothing new?

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55 isn't near to 80. Getting to 55 was easy, but it took a bit of work to actually grind upwards. This game's grinding is much better with its progressive system. (Its about the same every level.) Where in WoW (at the time.) you flew past low levels.

You didn't need to complete any quests or side quests and once you unlocked it it gave you pretty much all you needed.

Anyways, WoW wasn't fun. I got to 80 then quit, didn't like the game-play of the classes much at the time.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Just wanted to point out that WoW (you know, the biggest MMO in history) gated its first new class AND flying mounts behind high level content. You couldn't play a Death Knight unless you had a level 55 character (near enough the original level cap) and you couldn't fly in Outland or Northrend until you went through the majority of the content in those regions and unlocked the training manual at 68 and 78 respectively. Why exactly are you arguing on behalf of new players when this is nothing new?

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Look, I understand the thread is huge, but people are constantly bringing up the Death Knight example only to be reminded over and over and over that Blizzard admitted that choice was a mistake. The conversation is looping with ripetitive posts that could be avoided by reading some pages before posting.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Just wanted to point out that WoW (you know, the biggest MMO in history) gated its first new class AND flying mounts behind high level content. You couldn't play a Death Knight unless you had a level 55 character (near enough the original level cap) and you couldn't fly in Outland or Northrend until you went through the majority of the content in those regions and unlocked the training manual at 68 and 78 respectively. Why exactly are you arguing on behalf of new players when this is nothing new?

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And Blizzard outright said that was a bad idea. Heck, Blizzard even removed that requirement, as you can now start the game as a (newbie) Death Knight without already having a level 55 character.

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

Actually, Role Playing means you play the role of a character, meaning the Warrior of Light in this case. You play out their role, not how you would do it, but the role that was meant for them

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Wonder if he understands that when you play even table top RPGs you don't play as yourself but as a separate character. In table tops you have to adhere to the character you created. If you made a rebellious cheating and backstabbing rouge then you behave like a rebellious cheating and backstabbing rouge in whatever situations come up. You don't act how "you" would react in that situation as you are not playing as "yourself".

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And Blizzard outright said that was a bad idea. Heck, Blizzard even removed that requirement, as you can now start the game as a (newbie) Death Knight without already having a level 55 character.

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3 Expansions later, well I suppose we can be generous and say 2, but it really happened towards the life end of MoP.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

First of all, your not my friend nore are you my ally.

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You have no idea how grateful I am for that, since you admit you would lie to your friends. Here, let me quote it for you:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Now lets use our brains for a second ok?


Me: "Talks about how awesome of a time he has had in X Game."

Friend: "Wow, that sounds like a great game! You seem to be having a lot of fun in this game, and the new content sounds awesome! They are raising the level cap so I have a chance to play with you right?"

Me: "Pauses... reddens.."

Friend: "Whats wrong?"

Me: "Sorry, but I won't be able to play with you for awhile."

Friend: "Uhm.. but that sounds ridiculous, why?"

Me: "*Huge Breathe..* First you have to complete all the story content, then you have to get a certain ilvl, then after 50 you need to complete about 150-180 more quests, even more then you had to do to level 50. Then after that you have to complete the level 50-60 quests all whilst playing with pugs and new players since nobody really needs to do most of that content anymore."

Friend: ".... Enjoy your game man."

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I edited out the bolding you did, and added my own where you lied. There are not 150 story quests after Praetorium.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

There are also almost as much quests after that then they have before. Or at least close. When your skipping through these things it all kind of blends together though.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...uide/db/quest/
I mean seriously. "LOOK"

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You want me to look at every single quest in the game as if that means something? Here, let me fix your crappy linking:

2.0 Base quests: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...=1&category3=1

Post-Praetorium quests: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...=1&category3=2

It's amazing how linking to the proper sections can take the count from 1,461 down to 346! But wait, there's more! Since I'm not a horrible liar, I'll actually point out the problems with these counts!

If you follow the link for the 2.0 base quests, you'll notice that a lot of them are counted multiple times. Also, many of them are mutually exclusive (e.g., you can't do "The Gridanian Envoy" and "The Lominsan Envoy" on the same character). Luckily, I've used my first-grade counting skills to count up how many quests I actually did. There are 184 quests from "Close to Home" until "The Ultimate Weapon," including those two. Add in the two that I'm pretty sure are main scenario but fall under "Side quests" in the journal, and you're at 186.

Now, for the Post-Praetorium quests, there's a different issue. Hard mode Ifrit/Garuda/Titan were not originally main scenario, and therefore are not included in the Seventh Astral Era section, even though they're needed for MSQ progression. That adds 4 quests to the 100 shown in the link, leading to 104.

Anyone following along at home will note that the 104 main story quests after Praetorium is nowhere near the 150-180 that you told your hypothetical friend about. And since anyone who's completed the MSQ can look at the completed section of their journal and see where the cutoff for Seventh Astral Era is, they can easily call BS on your claims, too.

The best part, though, is that I didn't even count all the quests you're expected to do on the way to Praetorium. Specifically, I left out 7 Class quests on your first class, up to 5 on your sub-class (assuming you have to do them to unlock the job; I don't remember, honestly), and 6 Job quests (not counting the relic, because there's no way to know if new players in 3.0 will need the relic). That puts the 2.0 Base count up to 199-204 quests. Which means the Post-Praetorium quests are almost literally half of what you will do before the first set of credits rolls.

In short, your lies are so blatant that anyone with any interest in the matter can point them out, and lying like that to your hypothetical friend makes you the sort of person I would never want to call my friend. Might I suggest spending less time in the game and on forums and more time bettering yourself as a person?

I don't see the problem with them putting new classes behind 2.55 story progression, in XI, you needed to get to 30 to unlock new classes, in my time, it took forever just to get to 30, then unlocking that class, then leveling that said class, or leveling the sub for that class so you won't be a noob.