What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

But that hadn't even happened yet, by that point in the story.

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True, my bad, still doesn't mean it was appropriately placed. It was still just slapped in randomly.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

As I've said elsewhere, Endwalker is the "Final Disc" of the FFXIV story. It's the "Hero's Return" portion of the tale where said heroes apply what they've learned into overcoming whatever the final adversary of the plot is. Sure, more dire stakes would have been cool, but it didn't make or break the arc. However, with that said, the reason the problem is so pronounced is because of the constant fake-outs. If you're not going to kill anyone in the main cast, then fine.....but stop trying to pretend that you might.



But that hadn't even happened yet, by that point in the story.

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It doesnt matter if its the final disc. Noctis still dies in the final disc portion. So does Serah in 13-2. So does Gabranth in 12 etc. It's no excuse. Whats the excuse for no deaths or consequences in ShB then? Also....said heroes had to apply what theyve learned in this same expansion to defeat the end goal foe so im not sure any of that applies here whatsoever. Regardless, it doesnt change the fact that despite this expansion being advertised as dark and grim and scary, its filled with the most fluff and fanservice than any other expansion.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It doesnt matter if its the final disc. Noctis still dies in the final disc portion. So does Serah in 13-2. So does Gabranth in 12 etc. It's no excuse.

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FFXV is also infamous for its finale being extremely rushed and being largely incomplete without the DLC/novels to tie things together, with said tie-ins even making a case that Noctis's sacrifice was mostly wasteful.

FFXIII-2 is the second part of a story which not only kills NO ONE in it's ultimate finale a game later, literally brings every main character that did die back from the dead to punch God with the power of friendship.

Gabranth is a "Support character". His death has similar plot significance to that of Zenos, and he's even an "antagonist" that helps the protagonists in the final hour, much like Zenos.

Honestly, you would have made a better point arguing for Shadow at the end of FFVI or Vivi at the end of FFIX. But even then, we're talking about specific exceptions to the FF formula. I'm sure that you really enjoy those games where the heroes have to sacrifice themselves in the end or die, but not EVERY game needs to end that way. I don't care if a story is an unambiguous happy ending or not. Chrono Trigger and FFX are two of my favorite games ever, with two radically different types of endings, but I don't think either is worse for it.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

To be fair, the story went sideways after the new writer took over during Stormblood. By the way, don't compare Xenogears with Mass Effect, that's just rude, lol.

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*To xenogears.

They're not in the same level, I just think they're all way better written than XIV. And despite the ending ME is cohesive enough IMO.
Chrono Trigger has a different strength compared to those examples too, or even the numbered FF titles. It just handles the pacing masterfully and the fact they kept to their limits makes its relatively safe story wrap up very neatly in a way few games compare. It wasn't until Cross that they bit more than they could chew.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

FFXV is also infamous for its finale being extremely rushed and being largely incomplete without the DLC/novels to tie things together, with said tie-ins even making a case that Noctis's sacrifice was mostly wasteful.

FFIII-2 is the second part of a story which, not only kills NO ONE in it's ultimate finale a game later, literally brings every main character that did die back from the dead to punch God with the power of friendship.

Gabranth is a "Support character". His death has similar plot significance to that of Zenos, and he's even an "antagonist" that helps the protagonists in the final hour, much like Zenos.

Honestly, you would have made a better point arguing for Shadow at the end of FFVI or Vivi at the end of FFIX. But even then, we're talking about specific exceptions to the FF formula. I'm sure that you really enjoy those games where the heroes have to sacrifice themselves in the end or die, but not EVERY game needs to end that way. I don't care if a story is an unambiguous happy ending or not. Chrono Trigger and FFX are two of my favorite games in the series, with two radically different types of endings, but I don't think either is worse for it.

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I’m not saying every game needs to end that way. But when the writers and the devs are preaching how suffering and sacrifice is necessary, it comes across as a rather hollow sentiment when none of the main cast has to actually sacrifice or suffer from anything. Not to mention the amount of plot altering plot armor or plot holes that are created purely to keep these characters alive that ruins the flow of the story. How am i supposed to take certain antagonists or threats seriously if they can’t even land a scratch on the main cast? How am i supposed to feel invested if i know the heroes are always going to win? This was what was interesting back in ARR,HW and other ff games. Games like 7,9,10,12 etc that actually had lasting consequences for the heroes and where they actually had losses. This has been absent from 14 for a long time know and this isn’t some unknown thing, it’s incredibly prevalent.

15 being rushed doesn’t matter. Endwalker was rushed, doesn’t change much.

13-2 is still a game in itself, it still had a “final disc” portion that you want to preach about.

Gabranth was a pretty pivotal member of the main cast, considering he makes numerous appearances throughout the entire game. 6 or 9 aren’t exceptions to the ff formula. If we want to make a case for a formula it’s that a main character usually dies. This has been prevalent as early as ff2, and has since been a thing in ff4,ff5,ff6,ff7 and ongoing.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’m not saying every game needs to end that way. But when the writers and the devs are preaching how suffering and sacrifice is necessary, it comes across as a rather hollow sentiment when none of the main cast has to actually sacrifice or suffer from anything.

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This again goes into that "finale" point I was talking about before. Estinien, Thancred, Urianger... even the WOL have all gone through hardships and lost people they care about. Alisaie lost a good friend on the First. I know you don't like G'raha, but even he's been through some stuff for over a century. Alphinaud and Y'shtola...I honestly can't remember, so you kinda got me there.

As I said, I don't particularly care that they didn't "suffer more" in Endwalker specifically.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How am i supposed to take certain antagonists or threats seriously if they can’t even land a scratch on the main cast? How am i supposed to feel invested if i know the heroes are always going to win?

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I mean, the antagonists in question are Fandaniel, Meteion and Zenos. The prior two are preoccupied trying to kill pretty much everybody all at once and the latter is hyper-focused on killing one person, who is literally the player. I'm not exactly sure what kind of ending was being expected here.

Also ignoring the "plot armor" part. We've been over that ad nauseam, and I'm not getting into that again.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Games like 7,9,10,12 etc that actually had lasting consequences for the heroes and where they actually had losses. This has been absent from 14 for a long time know and this isn’t some unknown thing, it’s incredibly prevalent.

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Again, the only way you can argue the characters haven't suffered "lasting consequences" is if you look at Endwalker completely on its own and divorced from the rest of the story. Again, I don't particularly disagree with the sentiment that the expansion was toothless on its own merits, but again....I don't see this as some absolute, objective failing of writing as you seem to be implying it is.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

15 being rushed doesn’t matter. Endwalker was rushed, doesn’t change much.

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Not sure what you're on about here.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

13-2 is still a game in itself, it still had a “final disc” portion that you want to preach about.

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FFXIII-2 ends on a literal cliffhanger which gets undone in the very next game. It being a "game in itself" is irrelevant, because Serah's "death" had zero impact.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Gabranth was a pretty pivotal member of the main cast, considering he makes numerous appearances throughout the entire game.

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Sure. He was a pivotal support character.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

6 or 9 aren’t exceptions to the ff formula. If we want to make a case for a formula it’s that a main character usually dies. This has been prevalent as early as ff2, and has since been a thing in ff4,ff5,ff6,ff7 and ongoing.

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Again, the majority of these games have main characters die in the first or second acts of the story. Not the final act, which is what Endwalker is. Of the games you listed, the ones that count for that are FF6 FF9, and I think FF2....but it's been a while since I've played it.

At this point, I feel like we're going in circles.

I think we talked about character death in other FFs many pages ago and the fact remains that the one title you can directly compare FFXIV to by virtue of both being MMOs is FFXI and that doesn't exactly have NPCs dropping left and right.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Gabranth was a pretty pivotal member of the main cast, considering he makes numerous appearances throughout the entire game. 6 or 9 aren’t exceptions to the ff formula. If we want to make a case for a formula it’s that a main character usually dies. This has been prevalent as early as ff2, and has since been a thing in ff4,ff5,ff6,ff7 and ongoing.

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You can't say Gabranth counts as a "main character" when he's an antagonist, is never playable, and kills Vaan's brother and Ashe's father in the first 15 minutes of the game. The closest we get to the deaths in the main cast are guest characters like Vossler and Reddas (comparable to Moenbryda and Papalymo) and the fake-out death with Fran and Balthier at the end.

None of 12's main, playable characters die.

If you're going to count Gabranth then at that point you may as well count Emet-Selch, Elidibus, Yotsuyu, and Zenos who are all villainous characters who have a change of heart before or after they die and/or help us before or after their deaths.

I don't have the energy today to comment at length but it's tiresome seeing the same misunderstandings of people's arguments repeated over and over again. Anything to justify the continued presence of these characters on our screen no matter how little they are contributing to the narrative of the game.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

This again goes into that "finale" point I was talking about before. Estinien, Thancred, Urianger... even the WOL have all gone through hardships and lost people they care about. Alisaie lost a good friend on the First. I know you don't like G'raha, but even he's been through some stuff for over a century. Alphinaud and Y'shtola...I honestly can't remember, so you kinda got me there.

As I said, I don't particularly care that they didn't "suffer more" in Endwalker specifically.



I mean, the antagonists in question are Fandaniel, Meteion and Zenos. The prior two are preoccupied trying to kill pretty much everybody all at once and the latter is hyper-focused on killing one person, who is literally the player. I'm not exactly sure what kind of ending was being expected here.

Also ignoring the "plot armor" part. We've been over that ad nauseam, and I'm not getting into that again.



Again, the only way you can argue the characters haven't suffered "lasting consequences" is if you look at Endwalker completely on its own and divorced from the rest of the story. Again, I don't particularly disagree with the sentiment that the expansion was toothless on its own merits, but again....I don't see this as some absolute, objective failing of writing as you seem to be implying it is.



Again, the majority of these games have main characters die in the first or second acts of the story. Not the final act, which is what Endwalker is. Of the games you listed, the ones that count for that are FF6 FF9, and I think FF2....but it's been a while since I've played it.

At this point, I feel like we're going in circles.

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Again, look at ShB not just EW where again, the protagonists had 0 consequences despite going against the strongest foes they’ve ever faced and had nothing to show for it. Theyve had more losses from far weaker foes than literal unsundered ancients, yet somehow they triumph with not even a scratch. As for people going through things…Alisaie lost a friend whom we knew for about 5 minutes. Yshtola….lost nothing really. Same with Alphinaud. Urianger’s loss was 9-10 years ago(irl obviously), Graha slept through most of the 8UC but sure i guess we can say he struggled on the first even though i’m pretty sure the npcs say he mostly just stays cooped up in his tower 24/7. Either way, it’s pretty sad when minor npcs have to suffer more than the main cast who fight literal demigods.

As far as the 11 connection goes, while i haven’t played it i did see some comments on here a few days ago where while they might not kill people off left and right, you at least typically get new faces every expansion and not the same bland cast of characters like the scions so….

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Again, the majority of these games have main characters die in the first or second acts of the story. Not the final act, which is what Endwalker is. Of the games you listed, the ones that count for that are FF6 FF9, and I think FF2....but it's been a while since I've played it.

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FFII kills Josef very early. Kills Scott, Gordon's brother very early. Kills Minwu rather late in one of the final dungeons, second or third to last. Kills Ricard Highwind when he sacrifices himself so that the party and Leon can escape Hell Emperor right before he raises Pandemonium.

FFV has Galuf die right as the final act starts, the final act being the optional tasks of collecting the 12 holy weapons/super spells etc.

FFVI kills Shadow in two different areas. At the end of Floating Continent if you don't wait for him, and then in Kefka's Tower he chooses to go down with the tower to try and repent for his past. It also kills General Leo right before Floating Continent, and kills Cid at the start of World of Ruin if you don't feed him enough of the healthy fish.

FFVII kills Aeris, what, mid way through? I'm not a big 7 fan.

FFX killed Tidus and Auron.

FFXI... it's been a long time, but... It kills Lion in RoZ, only to bring her back through some Crystal Line chicanery if you do all of CoP as well and then the RoZ CoP crossover mission, Apocalypse Nigh. In ToAU they killed some new side characters, and one of the main characters to the expansion. That would be Luzaf, the pirate king of Ephramad, though technically he escaped Hell to come back to try and get revenge on Aht Urhgan, so technically he was already dead/on borrowed time. WoTG killed more side people, some ancestors of NPCs you meet in the current time, and you have several missions dedicated to bringing Lilisette back to life after the first battle with the Spitewardens where her existence shatters due to idk, time paradox or something from her father being turned into a Spitewarden iirc. I don't recall any big deaths or side deaths in Seekers of Adoulin, but I will admit I've only played through it once, and even that was several years ago now. Rhapsodies of Vana'diel had some bad stuff happen that I don't recall fully, only done it once as well. Don't know anything about Voracious Resurgence. Haven't done any of it.

Anyway, it's not beyond Final Fantasy to kill characters in the final act. Endwalker's problem was trying to have its cake and eat it too. Oh boohoo, all the Scions sacrificed themselves. Oh wait, half way through those necessary sacrifices, the Cat Girl Awooga tells you point blank that you can just bring'em all back with the Azem Stone. Killing all emotional impact that could be had, if you were even inclined to think it was going to be permanent.

Mostly I hated a lot of the story instance battles this time around. Gave me PTSD of ARR/HW stuff. But that ending? Considering they didnt do my Elezen!Zenos x Elidibus!Zenos naked battle...*Chefs Kiss*

I've said before I don't need characters to die, but after HW with us being on the front lines of wars, in a post-apocalyptic world trying to prevent its utter obliteration, and then facing a universe ending threat no one but the Ancients barely survived, not having any deaths along the way (especially as neither ARR or HW were shy about them) has just been ridiculous. I'd argue that if the writers aren't willing to have casualties on the protagonist's side then they have no business writing scenarios that are unrealistic without them. I was particularly disappointed with the Final Days if for no other reason than I thought the sundered would learn to have more appreciation for what the unsundered went through, only for two zones (that we know of) to experience it. Overall, it seemed to have less of an impact than a calamity.

What I do need are some form of consequences that don't end up being a superpower like Y'shtola's "blindness" or Estinien's merging with Nidhogg. Even psychologically, the most we see is the WoL has PTSD regarding accepting drinks from strangers. I suppose it's too much to ask that any of the characters explore having emotional difficulties for everything they've been through, "forge ahead" after all.

I also think any desire for Scion deaths also stems from having a bloated cast of homogeneous and redundant characters. Attachment isn't a justifiable reason either as many, including myself, were far more attached to Emet and Hyth who are dead and gone for the foreseeable future (as far as we know). They were far more popular characters than any of the Scions, most of whom don't even make the top 10 in favorite character polls.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

At this point, I feel like we're going in circles.

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Aerith dies. Zack was violently murdered. Basch failed the King. Vaan lost his only remaining family. Kefka won and brought about the collapse of the world, and Celes tried to commit suicide. Midgar was destroyed, and the cast were trying to pick themselves up amidst its ashes for years after. You're doing the same thing you've done before - picking trivial arguments and resting on them for pages and pages until the discussion becomes nigh on incoherent. Then you try to imply it's the other party desperate to have the last word.

The semantics of when and who according to your own brand of reasoning are irrelevant, enough past FF games have had the protagonists experience some hardship that hits particularly close to home; to have everything they know destroyed, to lose the ones they love, to see their worst fears realised, or go through or have experienced some form of betrayal or loss. The impact revebrates for a long while after, and the ending is often bittersweet.

XIV at the same time tackles something supposedly deeper and darker, whilst completely scaling back on the result. For a story that deals with the very essence of these themes that have been so prevalent in these past titles - overwhelming sorrow, grief, loss, and suffering - as its protagonists undergo the second coming of a universe-spanning apocalypse heralded by the harbinger of all-consuming death and despair, the consequences were ridiculously inadequate, the characters left unrealistically unaffected, and Endwalker was fundamentally affected by this, in terms of plausible writing, storytelling and the impact it had on the message it wasn't so much as trying to convey as beat you to death with. It is impossible for the stakes to have been any higher than what they were, and yet... nothing happened, and nothing continues to happen. Everyone is fine, there are no lasting repercussions, ill feelings, or traumas. It makes the entire experience ring hollow, and it isn't true to XIV itself, let alone the FF franchise. I'm weary of the notion that expecting some sort of fall-out from disaster and chaos on such a scale is somehow equivalent to asking a George RR Martin novel, when SE themselves would never have approved such a light and unrealistically inconsequential ending in any of its other games.

It's one thing to be all right with it, but pretending it didn't affect the weight of the story or deviate from what we've come to know and expect of FF is just flat out denial.

MMO's are a different beast to 'one and done' single player campaigns. I also don't really consider anything but the player character to be a permanent party member since the sky's the limit in regards to what they can potentially have in terms of accompanying party members.

There also isn't this strange aversion to consequences for the protagonists in...practically any other MMO that I've played.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Aerith dies. Zack was violently murdered. Basch failed the King. Vaan lost his only remaining family. Kefka won and brought about the collapse of the world, and Celes tried to commit suicide. Midgar was destroyed, and the cast were trying to pick themselves up amidst its ashes for years after.

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Almost every single one of those happened before the final act of the story, which was my point. Frankly, I have no idea why you think ANY of this has anything to do with what I said.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You're doing the same thing you've done before - picking trivial arguments and resting on them for pages and pages until the discussion becomes nigh on incoherent. Then you try to imply it's the other party desperate to have the last word.

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It's more like you guys keep trying to nitpick and then acting like I'm the one being unreasonable, really.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

The semantics of when and who according to your own brand of reasoning are irrelevant, enough past FF games have had the protagonists experience some hardship that hits particularly close to home; to have everything they know destroyed, to lose the ones they love, to see their worst fears realised, or go through or have experienced some form of betrayal or loss. The impact revebrates for a long while after, and the ending is often bittersweet.

XIV at the same time tackles something supposedly deeper and darker, whilst completely scaling back on the result. For a story that deals with the very essence of these themes that have been so prevalent in these past titles - overwhelming sorrow, grief, loss, and suffering - as its protagonists undergo the second coming of a universe-spanning apocalypse heralded by the harbinger of all-consuming death and despair, the consequences were ridiculously inadequate, the characters left unrealistically unaffected, and Endwalker was fundamentally affected by this, in terms of plausible writing, storytelling and the impact it had on the message it wasn't so much as trying to convey as beat you to death with. It is impossible for the stakes to have been any higher than what they were, and yet... nothing happened, and nothing continues to happen. Everyone is fine, there are no lasting repercussions, ill feelings, or traumas. It makes the entire experience ring hollow, and it isn't true to XIV itself, let alone the FF franchise. I'm weary of the notion that expecting some sort of fall-out from disaster and chaos on such a scale is somehow equivalent to asking a George RR Martin novel, when SE themselves would never have approved such a light and unrealistically inconsequential ending in any of its other games.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

It's one thing to be all right with it, but pretending it didn't affect the weight of the story or deviate from what we've come to know and expect of FF is just flat out denial.

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What I specifically said was that Endwalker is the "Disc 4" portion of the Season 1 saga of FFXIV, and that Final Fantasy games typically avoid major party death during this phase of the story or afterward. There are exceptions; FF6, FF9, FF10, and FF15. But they are just that: exceptions, and not the rule. (And FF2 as well, but I couldn't remember specifics until someone else reminded me.)

I also stated that one of the weakest parts of Endwalker's writing was the reliance on fake-out deaths.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Kills Minwu rather late in one of the final dungeons, second or third to last. Kills Ricard Highwind when he sacrifices himself so that the party and Leon can escape Hell Emperor right before he raises Pandemonium.

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Yep. Which I already mentioned, but said that I couldn't remember specifics of.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

FFV has Galuf die right as the final act starts

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So not in the final act, which agrees with my point.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

FFVI kills Shadow in two different areas. At the end of Floating Continent if you don't wait for him, and then in Kefka's Tower he chooses to go down with the tower to try and repent for his past. It also kills General Leo right before Floating Continent, and kills Cid at the start of World of Ruin if you don't feed him enough of the healthy fish.

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Mentioned Shadow already. Leo dies in the middle act of the story. Cid is a supporting character.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

FFVII kills Aeris, what, mid way through? I'm not a big 7 fan.

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Yep. Late middle of the story. So pretty much where I said.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

FFX killed Tidus and Auron.

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Pretty sure I mentioned FFX as one of the exceptions.

I don't remember enough about FFXI to comment.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Anyway, it's not beyond Final Fantasy to kill characters in the final act. Endwalker's problem was trying to have its cake and eat it too. Oh boohoo, all the Scions sacrificed themselves. Oh wait, half way through those necessary sacrifices, the Cat Girl Awooga tells you point blank that you can just bring'em all back with the Azem Stone. Killing all emotional impact that could be had, if you were even inclined to think it was going to be permanent.

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All of this is almost word-for-word what I've said in this thread.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Again, look at ShB not just EW where again, the protagonists had 0 consequences despite going against the strongest foes they’ve ever faced and had nothing to show for it. Theyve had more losses from far weaker foes than literal unsundered ancients, yet somehow they triumph with not even a scratch.

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Sure. I mean, the FFIX party get their butts kicked by Kuja twice in the story proper, but manage to defeat him, Deathguise, and Necron in succession of another. AFTER being Ultima'ed by Trance Kuja to the brink of death. The FFVIII party need to run from a mechanical spider and lose to Edea, but then manage to defeat the most powerful Sorceress of all time, in her own element.

FF characters get stronger throughout the plot, and often win in the end with some power of love/friendship BS. It's not that strange.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

As for people going through things…Alisaie lost a friend whom we knew for about 5 minutes. Yshtola….lost nothing really. Same with Alphinaud. Urianger’s loss was 9-10 years ago(irl obviously), Graha slept through most of the 8UC but sure i guess we can say he struggled on the first

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Alisaie was stuck on the first and had known Tesleen for at least months (I think it was actually more like a year) before we arrive, which frankly, is LONGER than most die-hard "nakama" know each other in a Final Fantasy game. G'raha lived a hundred years giving up everything he had (his body, his soul, and with the expectation of his life) to try to save someone he cared about and the world.

Guess theres not much else to discuss if we're going to start nitpicking every single little detail... I really wonder why so many people in this community enjoy being willfully obtuse and ignorant.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Guess theres not much else to discuss if we're going to start nitpicking every single little detail... I really wonder why so many people in this community enjoy being willfully obtuse and ignorant.

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Gaslight someone long enough and you might finally convince them that they're wrong and you're right. It's more or less what's happening here. In any case I'm with Aveyond. I'm tired, and that live letter has given me little hope for the future of the game story wise. I don't mind some comedy here and there but the slice of life and happily ever after nonsense is becoming far too prevalent. The "comedy" itself is also becoming MUCH more stereotypical Japanese rather than more nuanced. Completely lacking in irony and comprised entirely of slapstick humor and explaining the jokes as they happen. Even though I don't mind Hildebrand in small doses for example, I hate that the Endwalker Relic is locked behind that entire slog. It grates after a while.

I really don't know anymore.

Found a picture that sums up my feelings about the game at the moment. Came here, started having a good time, now I'm dealing with people who clearly have different tastes than I do overtaking a space that was mine far longer than it was theirs, given that I have been here since day 1 of ARR. These newer players who scoff at Ivalice yet fawn over the attempts at humour clearly don't want someone like me around pointing out why and how this game could be doing better, so maybe I should just let them have the run of the place.

It's unbelievable that I have to put up with some of this stuff.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eacz1rPXgAAS04S.jpg

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Found a picture that sums up my feelings about the game at the moment. Came here, started having a good time, now I'm dealing with people who clearly have different tastes than I do overtaking a space that was mine far longer than it was theirs, given that I have been here since day 1 of ARR. These newer players who scoff at Ivalice yet fawn over the attempts at humour clearly don't want someone like me around pointing out why and how this game could be doing better, so maybe I should just let them have the run of the place.

It's unbelievable that I have to put up with some of this stuff.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eacz1rPXgAAS04S.jpg

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There is a bit of a disconnect between what you're saying and what image you are using. From what you are saying I get the impression that you want to be the grey crowd.

I've been here before. I think this game is living on borrowed time and although it is unlikely to 'die' in the typical sense, it is making the exact same mistakes that WoW did in terms of throwing veteran players and the core target audience under the bus in favour of courting streamer reactions and players with a surface level enjoyment who do not want nuance or depth in any meaningful capacity. They don't want to think. They just want to consume. Readily opening their wallets and purses for the next 'cool thing' to be added to the Mog Station.

I like what I've seen when it comes to Ashes of Creation and Pantheon. I'm hoping one or both does very well not only to provide FFXIV with some much needed healthy competition but because both are very much to my personal tastes and are games first and foremost. Not visual novels. Until then, ESO will have to do. I don't like the combat system but it's proving to be a lot more immersive than FFXIV is these days. Plus the playable races are more distinct, have deeper and more meaningful lore and portions of the player base don't screech and drool over themselves as they try and shame people for liking monarchies or Roman inspired aesthetics.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

There is a bit of a disconnect between what you're saying and what image you are using. From what you are saying I get the impression that you want to be the grey crowd.

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I think i understand. 14 in the beginning was a bit of a departure from everything. It was dark, it was gritty, it took itself seriously. Fast forward where now people are basically trying to change it and are making the game essentially a joke now. Then, when people, typically veterans of the game speak out about this they’re told they don’t belong here and the game just isn’t for them anymore(which is also basically what the devs have been hinting at with the changes in direction.)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think i understand. 14 in the beginning was a bit of a departure from everything. It was dark, it was gritty, it took itself seriously. Fast forward where now people are basically trying to change it and are making the game essentially a joke now. Then, when people, typically veterans of the game speak out about this they’re told they don’t belong here and the game just isn’t for them anymore(which is also basically what the devs have been hinting at with the changes in direction.)

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It doesn't just happen towards the story, either. Someone speaks up about how male characters have been increasingly neglected? Same reaction. I still remember how Yoshi-P was 'surprised' that people wanted stubble for male characters despite it being a common request for years...and yet the moment the 2B gear had a visual bug an emergency statement was pushed out within a day. Funny how that works.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Found a picture that sums up my feelings about the game at the moment. Came here, started having a good time, now I'm dealing with people who clearly have different tastes than I do overtaking a space that was mine far longer than it was theirs, given that I have been here since day 1 of ARR. These newer players who scoff at Ivalice yet fawn over the attempts at humour clearly don't want someone like me around pointing out why and how this game could be doing better, so maybe I should just let them have the run of the place.

It's unbelievable that I have to put up with some of this stuff.

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Does it really matter how long people have been playing this game in order for their opinion to be more "correct"? This is an MMO and it wasn't made specifically for your tastes. You don't own the rights to the direction of the game just because you've been here for awhile.

If you wanted to go that route, I've been here since 1.0 beta, subbed through all but the last couple of months of 1.0, and everyone else has been in my space and isn't as "real" of a FFXIV gamer as I am because I played the game back before there was a jump button or a market board. /s

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Does it really matter how long people have been playing this game in order for their opinion to be more "correct"? This is an MMO and it wasn't made specifically for your tastes. You don't own the rights to the direction of the game just because you've been here for awhile.

If you wanted to go that route, I've been here since 1.0 beta, subbed through all but the last couple of months of 1.0, and everyone else has been in my space and isn't as "real" of a FFXIV gamer as I am because I played the game back before there was a jump button or a market board. /s

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Nobody here is demanding that the game is catered specifically to them. In fact, they're asking for variety. Which we're not really getting. Aveyond's been pretty consistent in requesting a more diverse cast of characters. Not a weird lump of samey individuals who all share the exact same opinions and ideals without every truly going against one another or having much in the way of agency.

I also don't think it's unfair to suggest that the game has shifted its tone and target audience. Maybe the development team should be more honest about that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think i understand. 14 in the beginning was a bit of a departure from everything. It was dark, it was gritty, it took itself seriously. Fast forward where now people are basically trying to change it and are making the game essentially a joke now. Then, when people, typically veterans of the game speak out about this they’re told they don’t belong here and the game just isn’t for them anymore(which is also basically what the devs have been hinting at with the changes in direction.)

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Aveyond wants to be both groups in that picture, whichever one suits them currently. Both implying that they're the pink group haunted by the evil grey group but very clearly wanting to be the grey group. They see a boot coming down on them but the real problem they feel is that they are not wearing the boot themselves, bringing it down on others.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Nobody here is demanding that the game is catered specifically to them. In fact, they're asking for variety. Which we're not really getting. Aveyond's been pretty consistent in requesting a more diverse cast of characters. Not a weird lump of samey individuals who all share the exact same opinions and ideals without every truly going against one another or having much in the way of agency.

I also don't think it's unfair to suggest that the game has shifted its tone and target audience. Maybe the development team should be more honest about that.

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Honestly, I feel it's the opposite. The game already has a ton of variety, different trends and overall feels to each expansion, etc.. As an example, the storyline for several relic weapon series in a row has been on the serious world-building side, and you get people frothing at the mouth because this time around it seems to be more relaxed involving Hildy. The issue is people wanting the game to suit exactly their tastes all the time, and throwing a hissy fit because the world doesn't revolve around them.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Aveyond wants to be both groups in that picture, whichever one suits them currently. Both implying that they're the pink group haunted by the evil grey group but very clearly wanting to be the grey group. They see a boot coming down on them but the real problem they feel is that they are not wearing the boot themselves, bringing it down on others.

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Me wanting a decent story doesn't take away the slice of life and Hildibrand style humor that was already optional content without a reward on-par with the relic attached to it. I do not care to call for that sort of content's outright removal. But it should not be present in the MSQ and now the relic to the degree that it is.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Aveyond wants to be both groups in that picture, whichever one suits them currently. Both implying that they're the pink group haunted by the evil grey group but very clearly wanting to be the grey group. They see a boot coming down on them but the real problem they feel is that they are not wearing the boot themselves, bringing it down on others.

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I don't get that impression at all, though I don't doubt that certain posters will seek to try and downplay any and all concerns raised despite the pretty blatant attempts to shout down and push out people from the community who dare to suggest that maybe the tone of the game is changing a little too much across the board and that there's far too much 'slice of life' content and undeserved plot armour. Though my previous post touched on what Aveyond has actually been saying across a great many posts. I've read pretty much all of them, too, I think.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Honestly, I feel it's the opposite. The game already has a ton of variety, different trends and overall feels to each expansion, etc.. As an example, the storyline for several relic weapon series in a row has been on the serious world-building side, and you get people frothing at the mouth because this time around it seems to be more relaxed involving Hildy. The issue is people wanting the game to suit exactly their tastes all the time, and throwing a hissy fit because the world doesn't revolve around them.

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I think the issue people have with it is that the story has already been affected by this mindset of everything needs to be light hearted and full of fluff. I don’t think there would be nearly as big of an outrage if ShB and EW hadn’t been littered with this slice of life stuff, but it has. So just having one of the few remaining serious and lore intensive questlines be turned into another slice of life content is the breaking point for many people, myself included.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Nobody here is demanding that the game is catered specifically to them. In fact, they're asking for variety. Which we're not really getting. Aveyond's been pretty consistent in requesting a more diverse cast of characters. Not a weird lump of samey individuals who all share the exact same opinions and ideals without every truly going against one another or having much in the way of agency.

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That's not how their post comes across to me.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

now I'm dealing with people who clearly have different tastes than I do overtaking a space that was mine far longer than it was theirs, given that I have been here since day 1 of ARR.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I also don't think it's unfair to suggest that the game has shifted its tone and target audience. Maybe the development team should be more honest about that.

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I think they've been refining the game but I don't think it's changed the tone or target audience. They've never aimed to compete against any specific game and just want to do their own thing. 1.0 being the exception, but we saw how that turned out.


ARR was just a rush to get something that was playable out the door. A lot of the old plot elements from the OG 1.0 before 1.2 were changed or dropped altogether and it became a "Final Fantasy theme park" with much more fantastical design elements and a pretty black and white plot. The Scions and Minfilia continued their roles from 1.0 to be our story guides.

HW refined that a bit more with a political storyline overlapping fighting dragons in a war that was caused by the people of the city the expansion takes place in. HW also is where they seemed to start to build the classic "FF party" during our journey to Hraesvelgr with Estinien, Ysayle, and Alphinaud.

SB took that party concept again with Alisae and Lyse following us on our adventurers after thinning out the cast by removing the extraneous Scion, Papalymo and before writing Lyse out to do, whatever role she is now so that the cast herd is more manageable.

ShB, now flush with all that successful MMO cash took the thinned out herd of characters and was able to concentrate more deeply on them for a longer period of time since the expansion story was longer than the first few. Each of the characters got focus during their own parts of the story before we brought them all together. The story also came back to the grey-morality plotline that SB skipped over.

I just see EW as an extension of what they were doing in ShB. We have these set characters now, and we focus on them and since they're altogether for large swaths of the expansion or at least come together at the end of every arc, we can have them interact with each other.

I don't see a lot of what's being complained about as a "specifically designated" tone shift, but just the director and the writers building on what they had until they found something they liked. It's also why I never figured they would ever write Hydaelyn/Venat as a bad character. They definitely dropped the ball on writing her motivations but the intention has from the very beginning for her to be a character you're supposed to support. And they gave nuance to the Ascians but when they were written back in ARR as "I don't know what their goal is but lets just have them do bad stuff", they were never meant to be the characters that would ultimately be fully vindicated and "win". Especially since their version of winning deletes the whole game map.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Almost every single one of those happened before the final act of the story, which was my point. Frankly, I have no idea why you think ANY of this has anything to do with what I said.

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You referenced the supposed previous hardships of the characters as a means of defending the lack of repercussions for them in Endwalker; my point was they're still relatively non-existent next to the devastating and far-reaching effects of the backgrounds of previous protagonists, with the exception of Estinien. They're also relevant to the discussion regarding any character suffering; you're the one who arbitrarily defined Endwalker as a "final disc" to explain away the lack of any real impact the story had upon the cast, which is nonsense in itself considering Endwalker, like previous expansions, is a story in its own right within the saga. Do you truly read the final book of a series and expect nothing of real note to happen to the characters since it's the last installment in the tale, or would you not expect something all the more pivotal to happen considering they're at their most vulnerable at the most dramatic, climactic part of story so far?

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What I specifically said was that Endwalker is the "Disc 4" portion of the Season 1 saga of FFXIV

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And I reiterate that's nonsense. And even in the event that it wasn't, 5 games out of 15 is not "an exception", nor does that have any bearing on what should or shouldn't happen - it's down to the plot of the story, and if said writing takes me through a world-wide apocalypse to a creature of doom at the ends of the universe that can "unmake" a person with their power over life itself in their domain, I would expect far more serious implications than what we had.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Found a picture that sums up my feelings about the game at the moment.

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If you're going to become despondent every time you are challenged, especially when the opinion you hold is in a relative minority, and - if I'm being honest - at times fairly incendiary in tone, then you need to readjust your expectations or go elsewhere where others share your opinions. Everyone has as much right to address you as you do to express yourself. It's also a tad childish and a little egocentric to think of yourself as any more deserving of space here than any other given person for whatever reason you deem appropriate.

aaaaand we’re back to if you’re in the minority just put up and shut up or leave. Glad to see this all come full circle

Aveyond's nowhere near as inflammatory a poster as those suggesting someone is a 'bad person' for liking the 'wrong' characters or factions in a video game. How interesting that the same posters very eager to jump down Aveyond's throat are always silent whenever actual personal attacks take place.

The tone policing wears rather thin as well, on that note.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Aveyond's nowhere near as inflammatory a poster as those suggesting someone is a 'bad person' for liking the 'wrong' characters or factions in a video game. How interesting that the same posters very eager to jump down Aveyond's throat are always silent whenever actual personal attacks take place.

The tone policing wears rather thin as well, on that note.

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If you sound hostile, you will invite hostility. The way you express yourself matters, and goes a long way in dictating the response you will get. Reminding someone of that is not "tone policing."

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

aaaaand we’re back to if you’re in the minority just put up and shut up or leave. Glad to see this all come full circle

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That's not what I said at all.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't see a lot of what's being complained about as a "specifically designated" tone shift, but just the director and the writers building on what they had until they found something they liked. It's also why I never figured they would ever write Hydaelyn/Venat as a bad character. They definitely dropped the ball on writing her motivations but the intention has from the very beginning for her to be a character you're supposed to support. And they gave nuance to the Ascians but when they were written back in ARR as "I don't know what their goal is but lets just have them do bad stuff", they were never meant to be the characters that would ultimately be fully vindicated and "win". Especially since their version of winning deletes the whole game map.

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Well if they did not intend to write her as "evil", then I find it very interesting that she did things that could most definitely be described as evil or, if we want to be generous, as questionable at the very best.

She lied to us (and by extension everyone who could hear her) from the start, telling a very colorful tale about how she and Zodiark apparently held hands around the campfire for a long time until he "suddenly" became "hungry for power" and then poor old her had to shackle him!
When in reality nothing of that was true - Zodiark never had will of his own, he had to be imbued with one by giving him a core which was Elidibus.

And about poor her never having a choice when it came to sundering the Ancients, tearing their souls apart? Hydaelyn was from the start designed by the person who dreamt her up (Venat) to be able to sunder with no alternative outcome, the visual evidence being her feet, which look like they were tailormade for that purpose.

Venat did never intend for this to go any other way, she was always perfectly willing to spill blood in order to make a new humanity that is more malleable to her purpose and easier to bend to fit her ideology.

She at the same time pampered the player character by trying to shield them from certain things and also manages to abuse them psychologially with carefully chosen lies to coax them into "heroics".

Jesus Christ riding on Ra-La, she even ripped her world into unstable reflections that, as we later learn, were never even meant to survive, she never considered them. Which results in her accepting that parts of souls could possibly become lost forever.
She also coaxed Minfilia into committing suicide so she could wear her body as a flesh suit, only to then abandon her on the First like an old sock puppet.

And we can even consider the loporrits, she made them and never told them that humanity doesn't exist in the same form anymore, they kept building everything Ancient sized - she could have sent a message through Sharlayan, sent a memo to the moon, anything really during those 12k years. But apparently it was funnier to see their little rabbit hearts explode upon learning that they had been doing everything wrong for an insanely long amount of time.

And concerning her being a bad character? Oh boy.
There is nothing good in the writing of a character that is expressed to be loved by every single person who talks about her, is an expert in every field of study, is the best as creation magic, knows everything about the world, is the strongest, the most experienced, the most loving. It's bad character writing at its finest.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

If you're going to become despondent every time you are challenged, especially when the opinion you hold is in a relative minority, and - if I'm being honest - at times fairly incendiary in tone, then you need to readjust your expectations or go elsewhere where others share your opinions. Everyone has as much right to address you as you do to express yourself. It's also a tad childish and a little egocentric to think of yourself as any more deserving of space here than any other given person for whatever reason you deem appropriate.

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I endured the backlash from the community when the Final Fantasy mmorpg version of Blue Mage went from their epic origin story and gameplay in FFXI to a limited job in FFXIV that takes after a carnival magician.

I endured the backlash from the community when I spoke out against limited and gender-locked races. Anyone else remember when people actually defended the release state of Viera and Hrothgar? Because I sure do.

So on and so on. This is getting old. Forgive me if I feel the same way now as I did back then.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

If you sound hostile, you will invite hostility. The way you express yourself matters, and goes a long way in dictating the response you will get. Reminding someone of that is not "tone policing."



That's not what I said at all.

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There is 0 reason to bring up whether someones opinion is a minority or not. Especially in a thread where most people typically agree with the persons views youre arguing against.

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Originally Posted by Tama-Kanzashi

There is nothing good in the writing of a character that is expressed to be loved by every single person who talks about her, is an expert in every field of study, is the best as creation magic, knows everything about the world, is the strongest, the most experienced, the most loving. It's bad character writing at its finest.

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It's entirely possible that a person can be the best in everything, but not really as it is now. as you imply, Hydaelyn does come across as a Mary Sue in the current lore. She was in the seat of The Traveler; one which invites world-class good guys by its' nature, so it would make sense for her to be "the best at everything and well-loved." the obvious example of the premise working is your character, the sundered version of The Traveler, the Warrior of Light, being well-loved for good reason and the most powerful and nobody bats an eye; clearly the problem is not in premise but execution. unfortunately, it's poorly communicated in-game and she comes across as a doofus. For example, if Hydaelyn did actually do everything correctly and was good 100% of the time, while also making personal sacrifices (as the story wants us to believe but doesn't show beyond a cutscene that implies it), it would make sense that she was loved for the reasons the cast does. For now, the story in EW feels like 2 entirely unrelated expansions cut together because it was the 10-year anniversary and they didn't want to wait until the 12th for the big finale, which meant they had to fanangle all of the important and meaningful character arcs.

I feel like something that could have fixed her EW character is even a short quest that shows her fear about the job required as well as an actual attempt to change the future, instead of her immediately going "well I'm going to play by the rules of two immensely homicidal maniacs because lol." it would establish her as a well-meaning but imperfect character, and failing to convince the convocation about the final days would make a great failure point to allow for her becoming Hydaelyn as a last-ditch attempt to save the universe.



and a minor side note: the ea (blob aliens) could have easily circumvented entropy forever by time-traveling backward, as we know it's possible and only uses the aether of the future. at least a mention of them trying would be immeasurably better than not for purposes of storytelling, as primals seemingly do not require actual knowledge of how to do something in order to do it, and a severely weakened Garlond Ironworks only took a few generations to figure it out. Honestly, the addition of entropy in my fantasy universe literally killed any sense of magic the game had.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I endured...

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No one is asking you to make a martyr out of yourself and "endure" anything. If participating in discussions is detrimental to your mental wellbeing, then step away from the forums for a while. This is not the crusade you make it out to be, and disagreeing with you is not the personal attack you think it is.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

There is 0 reason to bring up whether someones opinion is a minority or not. Especially in a thread where most people typically agree with the persons views youre arguing against.

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There absolutely is a reason when I'm defining why you will be getting a response you perceive as a "backlash."

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

No one is asking you to make a martyr out of yourself and "endure" anything. If participating in discussions is detrimental to your mental wellbeing, then step away from the forums for a while. This is not the crusade you make it out to be, and disagreeing with you is not the personal attack you think it is.



There absolutely is a reason when I'm defining why you will be getting a response you perceive as a "backlash."

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Sorry for trying to stop the game I liked from turning into what it's turning into. It's more than just "disagreeing" when it's clear that there is a group of people who do not want players like me around and are cheering this whole thing on. This isn't even as bad as some of these recent job changes because at least when it comes to that I can just change jobs. But when more and more of the story is going down this same path? What else am I supposed to turn to?