We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

It's good you recognize that.

Plenty of people have done a great job already of detailing why your suggestions are unnecessary at best and crippling to other parts of the game at worst so I won't go into those details but has it occurred to you that you're taking to a public forum to express your opinion and then just been rude to anyone who disagrees with you for expressing theirs?

Perhaps WhyAmIHere is here (lol, good name) is here to defend the content that they enjoy from people like you who only care about certain parts of the game. It isn't your place to question them or imply that they shouldn't be responding to you.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

But because of your sense of entitlement? Either do the content that awards it, make it if it can be made, or get over it.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I would go with uninformed or nonsensical personally) but rather that your proposed solutions to your perceived problems are detrimental.

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Calling me entitled or at least implying as such isn't rude? Ordering me to "get over it" isn't rude? Stating that my opinion is "uninformed or nonsensical" isn't being rude? In my opinion, there seems to be a double standard here.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Calling me entitled or at least implying as such isn't rude? Ordering me to "get over it" isn't rude? Stating that my opinion is "uninformed or nonsensical" isn't being rude? In my opinion, there seems to be a double standard here.

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It could be rude, but that's do to how you're coming across towards them with your tone and responses, so really, maybe some self-reflection is also needed here. You need to figure out a "why" people are first jumping towards the word "entitlement" towards you in the first place based on how you're wording things. Fighting rudeness with more rudeness gets you absolutely no where and you probably know that by now.

If people are saying those things, they have their reasons why to and have probably explained why they feel they disagree I'm sure and you're just not seeing their point of view or side either.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Calling me entitled or at least implying as such isn't rude? Ordering me to "get over it" isn't rude? Stating that my opinion is "uninformed or nonsensical" isn't being rude? In my opinion, there seems to be a double standard here.

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Well it's a good thing we all agreed your opinion doesn't matter, then ;D

I jest. Mostly.

I can only speak for myself but I genuinely believe your opinions on gearing are nonsense and born of a fundamental lack of understanding of the game from anything but your perspective. If I walked up to you on the street and said 'I hate your shirt' it would be rude but discussing the validity of opinions on a forum and in a thread that is literally discussing the validity of these opinions isn't rude.

I'm not going to apologize for saying those things. You put your opinion out there and got feedback you don't like. That sucks but you chose to voice those opinions.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Well it's a good thing we all agreed your opinion doesn't matter, then ;D

I jest. Mostly.

I can only speak for myself but I genuinely believe your opinions on gearing are nonsense and born of a fundamental lack of understanding of the game from anything but your perspective. If I walked up to you on the street and said 'I hate your shirt' it would be rude but discussing the validity of opinions on a forum and in a thread that is literally discussing the validity of these opinions isn't rude.

I'm not going to apologize for saying those things. You put your opinion out there and got feedback you don't like. That sucks but you chose to voice those opinions.

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I'm glad for the feedback I got on my opinions about the game, but not of the "feedback" I've got for myself personally. By discussing my opinion, I learn what others want from the game. I feel players shouldn't feel discouraged from discussing their opinions on this forum, otherwise it might become an echo chamber.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

That wasn't a personal attack on your character. You are literally looking to be offended by what everyone says at every turn. Seriously, take a breath and step away from the forums or something. Not everyone is out to insult you, but you're sure looking to play the victim after being rude to others because of a disagreement with opinions.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

You....can't really preach "Getting over it" when you can't seem to comprehend that other people are allowed to have criticism and opinions, sometimes negative, against your own as well.

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Literally everything you said in your reply was a criticism of me personally. You completely ignored my opinion of this game and thus the point of the thread topic in your reply.
You may mock me for saying this, but have some self awareness. Even if you believe you are doing the right thing, you are derailing the thread to criticize me, and thus I'm derailing the thread replying to that.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Literally everything you said in your reply was a criticism of me personally. You completely ignored my opinion of this game and thus the point of the thread topic in your reply.
You may mock me for saying this, but have some self awareness. Even if you believe you are doing the right thing, you are derailing the thread to criticize me, and thus I'm derailing the thread replying to that.

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No, it wasn't. I said that you shouldn't preach towards others the words "getting over it" when you too, can not also seem to handle conflicting or negative opinions regarding your own very well by immediately jumping towards an aggressive standing. And that still seems to be a problem here based on how you're reacting. I didn't ignore your opinion, I allowed you to have it. I never said that you couldn't have it, just that maybe you shouldn't be so quick to fire back that one comment and it's harming your stance more than its doing you good.

Criticism of a person is not always considered a personal attack. I didn't name-call, flame, or insult you. Just merely stated that maybe you shouldn't say those things because you're doing the exact same thing what you're chiding the other person for doing. It's a little hypocritical behavior.

I don't need self-awareness. I know exactly what and how I'm typing things. I suggest that maybe, once again, you look towards your own advice and possibly do the same here. You're not immune towards criticism, neither am I. I don't know why people think it's okay to criticize others, but then expect not to be in return.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Calling me entitled or at least implying as such isn't rude? Ordering me to "get over it" isn't rude? Stating that my opinion is "uninformed or nonsensical" isn't being rude? In my opinion, there seems to be a double standard here.

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You came onto a relatively public forum expecting to find an echo chamber of "yes I agree" remarks. You got upset when people said "no I disagree." Instead of debating those points you resorted to dismissing the opinions of others because you weren't interested in dialogue, just affirmation of your own views. Your actions have been trying to seek validation, and now victimization, merits of defeat in a debate.

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Originally Posted by Edax

This is topic discussing the path of FFXIV. If you feel my opinion, playstyle and personal goals are invalid, then get over it.

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You're putting words in my mouth. Here, I'll spell it out for you:
Being inaccurate and erroneous (made in error) does not equal invalid. Your opinion is not invalid, but inaccurate and ill-informed. When presented with evidence to the contrary, you retreat away from this point.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Thank you for the personal attack on my character. I can't stop you for having your opinion, or your personal criticism of me, but I can be offended by it and I can defend myself since you have made this personal.

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nothing that I can recall that has been said towards you has been an attack on your character. If you really think all you are is your opinions, stop selling yourself short. You may be a better crafter / gatherer / pvp-er / RP-er / whatever-er than myself or anyone else on this forum/game. But if you're offended that people are saying that you're wrong, without either wanting to justify why you felt right in spite of this, trying to have a back and forth and debate the merit of your points, and instead resort to what you've been doing... I don't know what to tell you.

Saying you're wrong is not saying you're worthless.
EDIT::
Here, I'll even prove my point.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I already know my words here will not change the game. That doesn't mean I'm happy about the current situation and I feel I have a right to voice as such on this topic.

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You have as much a right as anyone else to express the game and your satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the game. I'm upset with Pagos. Plenty of other people are as well. SE sees the amount of people upset by this content and try to make it better for the players.
My point? Get enough people to agree on the points you're making and eventually those changes you seek may very well be implemented. But if the things you want only appeal to you don't get upset if people, naturally, disagree with how you feel.

Glamour's been a hot button issue for a long time. SE heard the complaints and finally implemented the glamour dresser, removed the myriad glamour prisms and made them all single-purpose items. So, there is proof to what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

You came onto a relatively public forum expecting to find an echo chamber of "yes I agree" remarks.

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No I didn't. If I thought everyone would agree with me, I wouldn't even be on the forums in the first place.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

You're putting words in my mouth. Here, I'll spell it out for you:
Being inaccurate and erroneous (made in error) does not equal invalid. Your opinion is not invalid, but inaccurate and ill-informed. When presented with evidence to the contrary, you retreat away from this point.

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Please explain how to me how "This is topic discussing the path of FFXIV. If you feel my opinion, playstyle and personal goals are invalid, then get over it." was putting words in your mouth. That was my reply to your order that I "get over it".

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Either do the content that awards it, make it if it can be made, or get over it.

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My statement:

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Originally Posted by Edax

Better equipment is aspirational and not everyone aspires to be a raider.

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Was a general statement about the game and it's playerbase. It should not have spawned so many replies about me personally.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

You need to figure out a "why" people are first jumping towards the word "entitlement" towards you in the first place based on how you're wording things.

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Who get to declare who and who isn't entitled? I am paying for this game, same as you. I argue this game should be more egalitarian and yet I'm accused of being entitled.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

It's a little hypocritical behavior.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

nothing that I can recall that has been said towards you has been an attack on your character.

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I take being called hypocritical and entitled as an attack on my character. It sidesteps the discussion about the game entirely.

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Originally Posted by Edax

No I didn't. If I thought everyone would agree with me, I wouldn't even be on the forums in the first place.


your actions conflict with your statement here

Please explain how to me how "This is topic discussing the path of FFXIV. If you feel my opinion, playstyle and personal goals are invalid, then get over it." was putting words in your mouth. That was my reply to your order that I "get over it".


I did. Reread what I wrote and you should see it.

My statement:

Was a general statement about the game and it's playerbase. It should not have spawned so many replies about me personally.


You've removed ALL of the context leading up to this point, and ignoring why the events turned out to lead to that point. This doesn't help you. You have stated before that you feel you should have access to the best gear rewards without having to resort to raiding. People have countered your opinion saying "you don't have to raid. But "best" gear is relative to what you want." Instead of debating this, you took personal offense to this, and well... here we are now.

Who get to declare who and who isn't entitled? I am paying for this game, same as you. I argue this game should be more egalitarian and yet I'm accused of being entitled.


Because you expect to get a Gold medal for doing the work of a non-gold medal performance. Simply put.

I take being called hypocritical and entitled as an attack on my character. It sidesteps the discussion about the game entirely.


...any more than you've already? Context matters, but being called a hypocrite isn't always an attack on your character. Being called entitled isn't always an attack on your character. Context matters.

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see the bold/underlined.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Who get to declare who and who isn't entitled? I am paying for this game, same as you. I argue this game should be more egalitarian and yet I'm accused of being entitled.

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No one. And that includes you, but that doesn't mean people don't have to the right to say or not say it simply because the word itself makes you feel uncomfortable or offends you. Arguing that the game isn't egalitarian as a concept is an extremely silly and hyperbole-strawmen type statement that you're basing on personal feelings rather than actual facts. The game itself doesn't discriminate content against its users outright. You are free to pursue everything the game has to offer and you stating this simply because you want better gear without raiding because you don't like raiding, is personal bias and nothing more than that. You're not being forced to pay an additional sub fee for content you don't use. Let's leave the discussion of something as serious as "Equality" out of an MMORPG, please.

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I take being called hypocritical and entitled as an attack on my character. It sidesteps the discussion about the game entirely.

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Then, maybe don't do or sound like it and people will overlook those flaws? Or own up towards the fact that's how your tone and responses come across? Maybe not throw the first stone the moment, the exact moment, you are met with negative criticism and seek to improve oneself instead? This isn't a safe space for words after all. Again, as another user mentioned, context matters and how you make yourself appear through words over the internet.

Reading between the lines and tone is equally important.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Then, maybe don't do or sound like it and people will overlook those flaws?

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Players should overlook those flaws anyway. It's a video game forum about discussing a video game. Justifying insults is pointless. Ideally no one should be trading insults here.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

It doesn't matter whether you think it was or wasn't designed, it's still accessible by everyone willing to start and do the quests.

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(IMO) It does matter because it's bad game design. Paying customers are unhappy and they paid for Pagos to be developed via the subscriptions.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Players should overlook those flaws anyway. It's a video game forum about discussing a video game. Justifying insults is pointless. Ideally no one should be trading insults here.

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No, people shouldn't overlook those flaws simply because being called out on them makes you feel uncomfortable as a person. Learn to take constructive criticism against your opinions and how you present yourself and your arguments, they're not insults. And, if you're taking direct offense towards how others perceive you and labeling them as such instead of owning up to your own mistakes, then it starts to make people wonder if they're true and that you're simply in denial of having character flaws or imperfections towards your personality.

It's not the other person's job to change themselves just to change and please you. It's your own job to change oneself when you find out how you're coming across in context and that your tone is detrimental towards having any kind of healthy discussion. You don't get a free pass at being a hypocrite when talking to someone in real life, why on earth would you think it would be okay here? :confused:

Honestly, seeing as there's a daily posting limit, I'm not sure if I should be wasting them on someone that continues to shift every time their argument is debunked.

Ladies, Ladies...

Clearly, I'M the beautiful one here.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

At least you're consistent.


From there people have seriously questioned why you felt that way, and tried to express why they feel you're opinion is wrong. You talk about gear stagnation later on like that's an issue that only affects you, which it doesn't.

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I confess that I did contradict myself because the early name-calling got me emotional and my earlier arguments lost coherence because I started replying on instinct. My opinions were also not static from the start and having been shifting as my suggestions were discussed. I realized that nobody wanted BiS gear on the MB so I was convinced to abandon the idea.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

You act like only you have had to deal with the issues you're addressing... in an MMO. You're far from the first, only, and last to have those issues in this game. Your statement presents an opinion that your problems are more important that the problems of others with regards to this game... even if the problems are a direct 1:1 ratio.

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I apologize if I came off that way. It was not my intention to imply I was the only one. I am still somewhat new to the forums and do not know much about topics that have already been discussed and this was the first time I was voicing my complaints about the game.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

You contradict yourself here. I CBA to dig much more but you'd be fine if things are harder to get without distinction towards if those items are obtained from raids or not, which is where I think? someone else even suggested. But, how would players have MORE options to progress if the means of doing so were more rare?

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I wanted the crafting system to be a bit more rewarding and challenging. More options to get BiS should mean more options to progress. Just letting the crafting system have some BiS would let it compete with tome farming and raiding when it comes to giving certain players something to work for.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

But the utter dismissal of content you don't like based on a notion of it, while that same notion can be applied to the thing you enjoy; that is what comes of as hypocritical.
Expecting to get the same result as someone whilst not putting in the same effort as them is hypocritical. Especially if your reasons for wanting those results can just as well be achieved with other pieces of gear. But because it's not what is considered "the best," you're upset by this: that's the sense of entitlement the people disagreeing with you, myself included, perceive.

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My biggest problem with the game isn't related to gear at all, but I keep (foolishly) dragging myself into the conversation. Yes, I know the raids and roulettes are there, but they were not the reason I joined this game. If I raid, I won't have fun. If I keep my character as is, I'll get bored. I'm stagnant and I want to escape this situation in the game.

Sigh* here we go again. I guess I'll have a nibble at it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

^This.
This section in Mal's OP called "Gear Rewards, Progression, and Raiders" is just full of nonsense and misinformation.

-Relics are worth getting, even raiders make them, just because some people think they aren't worth it doesn't make it the raid or raider's fault

-Trial rewards are worth getting, even raiders get them

-Tome gear is worth working for, it upgrades to max item level for the tier, even raiders get tome gear, what game are you playing? It doesn't sound like it is this one?

-24 mans are not a waste of time, it is the some of the most fun experiences I've had in this game besides raiding, fun is the best reward and the gear can be used to gear alt jobs or even main if it has better substats or you are missing some pieces

-We can't have overpowered current gear.....because overpowered is broken and balance is a thing people appreciate....? If you want to game shark play a solo game

-We can have powerful PvP gear if people want it, it can just be for PVP only and glams, how is this raid or raider fault?

-We have usable materia slots in our gear, seriously are we talking about the same game here?

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And this whole section was built upon a misunderstanding and jump to conclusions. The point was that we cannot have any rewards outside of glamour, meaning no gear that is used in battle, because devs have to absolutely avoid making anything remotely more powerful or equal to, raid gear IN THE CATCH-UP patch like old Diadem i210 gear. Higher stats in gear is an incentive to do certain content regardless of if they're a raider or non-raider because surprise, people just like seeing big numbers. That's why I said they're all a waste of time to me, because none of the options, not even relic can reach ilvl cap at the very least during the catch-up patches and only raid and tome can reach cap meaning there is no ways to reach perfect BiS.

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Ask SE for it

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Yeah I guess I have to because obviously you just want to argue for 40 more pages instead of being productive and present some ideas yourself?

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More gear options from more avenues = gearing up to max quicker = clearing content easier = less need to do content to get clears or geared up = less people actively playing since they have nothing left to do = less people subbing longer = SE losing money.

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Holy opinion! Did you not read my post a few pages back explaining all the different ways to make a whole bunch of varied sets without affecting raids and raid progression while giving everyone more options to make really great sets during the catch-up patches and adding GEAR incentive to ALL content?

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This paragraph doesn't make any sense. If you progged savage yourself I think you would realize why this doesn't make any sense.

As a raider myself:
-I buy some crafted gear at the beginning of a tier
-I try to get the new trial primal weapon at beginning of tier and even midtier (Shinryu weapons and Tsukiyomi weapons helped people clear O4S and O8S)
-I work for my raid gear
-I work for my tome gear
-I use 24 man gear to close gaps in my gear
-I use the catch up patch upgrade items from the 24 man to close gaps in my gear

None of these things were dead on arrival for me even though I raid.

If all of this content is incentive for even someone like me who raids savage and has access to savage gear then how is it possible that casual players have no incentive to run the same content????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? The logic is non-existent.

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Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? You want to talk about me not knowing anything? This whole piece of post is super ignorant and all you're trying to do do is split yourself from me. "Unlike you, as a raider... I know-". Well guess what? You don't know anything about me and before assuming all of that junk maybe you should've asked me first.

I am an ex-raider. I know EXACTLY how progging and EX Primals and all that stuff goes. I raided in Creator and some of Deltascape(unsubbed when I got bored). I beat/farmed every EX primal of ARR and HW on-time, and beat Susanoo and Lakshmi to prog Deltascape. All without ever getting into a static. Why? Because I wanted the stuff that is dropped IN THE RAID. I'm only not raiding now because I unsubbed because I wasn't interested and wanted a break.

So please, spare me all that "As a raider" talk. I know exactly how being a raider is and I don't need you to tell me. Raiding now is no different than before in HW. Me not liking raids has absolutely nothing to do with not being able to raid or because I don't know any better. I just don't agree with the design and I have my own opinions. Surprise! A raider doesn't actually like the raids and only does them for the gear. And I get the gear to simply feel strong. If a piece of gear from a raid doesn't appeal to me stat-wise, I just won't do that raid at all. THAT is why I want more paths to ilvl cap gear that offer more stat sets.

You lashed out on me 54 pages late just because you thought I didn't like the raid concept because I don't know as much as you and that's not cool at all. I don't have to raid and agree with you. Stop judging people, especially me.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Actually this. I think the person you're replying to either doesn't actually play the game enough to know how gearing actually works, or is being willfully obtuse.

As a Bard personally who had to wait until 4.3 before I was able to clear O8S, I went through the same phase you did, except I got my upgraded ilvl 370 tome weapon fairly early and thus had no reason to do Tsukiyomi EX (not to mention Tsuki EX bow doesn't have crit IIRC), and I skipped over the 24-man raid in terms of gearing since the chest piece from Ridorana didn't have crit on it (unlike Rabanastre). Meaning that Bards have to go from ilvl 350 (which became 360, see below) crafted chest piece to ilvl 370 diamond shirt if they wanted to maintain their critical hit rate.

At the very least, SE did introduce -upgraded- crafted armor that lets us upgrade said armor from 350 to 360 (at the cost of making them untradeable, which is going to happen anyway if you intend to actually use them), which is a plus and actually a very good idea.

The people in this thread acting like raiders don't do other content is actually pretty hilarious. This is especially considering that a good population of the raiders actively raid precisely because there's not much else to do in this game otherwise. This was one of only two reasons I decided to raid myself come Alexander Creator after not having the confidence to raid during the year prior (the other being some friends dragging me into it because they had trouble finding decent Bards in HW).

(I still run Ridorana frequently, probably more than the 'self-proclaimed casuals', just because I find 24-mans fun and hilarious. I usually run it about 3-4 times a week, and I ran Rabanastre about 10 times one week because I was literally that bored.)

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You too. Thank you kindly for judging me and making it out like I'm some inexperienced person who doesn't know any better, without even thinking that maybe I just have a different opinion that has nothing to do with my skill or experience. Also I'm a Bard too.

You need to calm the heck down with the false assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Edax

You first, hypocrite.
That's one of the smarter things you said. You shouldn't justify insulting people, you should be walking away.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/12msOFU8oL1eww/giphy.gif

Stop insulting people, geeze. You're adding nothing with this.

There's really no need for this level of hostility. I don't know what's happened to the official forum lately but it used to be a lot more pleasant. The sheer amount of posters who are unable to agree to disagree and deliberately assume the very worst about the people they claim to be engaging with both on this board and the lore board is baffling.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

impossible you're a lala.

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The lala, with muffins

https://thekittchen.com/wp-content/u...-9-600x750.jpg

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

The point was that we cannot have any rewards outside of glamour, meaning no gear that is used in battle, because devs have to absolutely avoid making anything remotely more powerful or equal to, raid gear IN THE CATCH-UP patch like old Diadem i210 gear. Higher stats in gear is an incentive to do certain content regardless of if they're a raider or non-raider because surprise, people just like seeing big numbers. That's why I said they're all a waste of time to me, because none of the options, not even relic can reach ilvl cap at the very least during the catch-up patches and only raid and tome can reach cap meaning there is no ways to reach perfect BiS.

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Tome gear upgrades to max item level for the current tier - the same item level as the gear that drops in savage. They could add maybe one more way to get some i370 gear during the catch up patch if you really wanted?? But it would still end up weekly locked in some way or time consuming to get and it won't be higher than the current tier.

It won't make much of a difference. It also won't give you BiS because if a BiS piece is in savage then you would still have to do savage for it, since not all the "new" i370 gear will have the substats properly for it to overtake the savage piece as BiS.

I mean you keep talking about incentives, but if you throw in i385 gear for example like your idea of "more powerful than raid gear stuff from other content during catch up patch" then it takes away part of the incentive to do the savage raids that people were progressing.

If you want BiS you have to do the savage fights. BiS is part of the incentive to dip into all content since you need to get a mixture of gear to get it.

You can get your big numbers by getting the max item level gear SE gives you via tomes and upgrades. If you make use of The Hunts you can even bypass weekly limits to upgrade your gear to max for the tier. You can be full i370 without raiding which is the max for this tier minus i375 weapon. Two ways to get to max gear for a tier are not enough? I guess if you have that opinion that's fine, but I don't agree, seems fine to me.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

instead of being productive and present some ideas yourself?

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Explain to me why you think I should fix your issues for you?

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? You want to talk about me not knowing anything? This whole piece of post is super ignorant and all you're trying to do do is split yourself from me. "Unlike you, as a raider... I know-". Well guess what? You don't know anything about me and before assuming all of that junk maybe you should've asked me first.

I am an ex-raider. I know EXACTLY how progging and EX Primals and all that stuff goes. I raided in Creator and some of Deltascape(unsubbed when I got bored). I beat/farmed every EX primal of ARR and HW on-time, and beat Susanoo and Lakshmi to prog Deltascape. All without ever getting into a static. Why? Because I wanted the stuff that is dropped IN THE RAID. I'm only not raiding now because I unsubbed because I wasn't interested and wanted a break.

So please, spare me all that "As a raider" talk. I know exactly how being a raider is and I don't need you to tell me. Raiding now is no different than before in HW. Me not liking raids has absolutely nothing to do with not being able to raid or because I don't know any better. I just don't agree with the design and I have my own opinions. Surprise! A raider doesn't actually like the raids and only does them for the gear. And I get the gear to simply feel strong. If a piece of gear from a raid doesn't appeal to me stat-wise, I just won't do that raid at all. THAT is why I want more paths to ilvl cap gear that offer more stat sets.

You lashed out on me 54 pages late just because you thought I didn't like the raid concept because I don't know as much as you and that's not cool at all. I don't have to raid and agree with you. Stop judging people, especially me.

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I didn't assume anything. You are currently not progging or doing sigma savage and that is what I based my response off of and why I think you missed the holes in your OP's logic. It has nothing to do with if you were an Ex-raider or not, nor did I say that you have never raided. I also never claimed you can't raid or said anything at all about your skill level. You are bringing all of this into the discussion, not me.

I did not wake up on the wrong side of the bed just because I disagree with you.

I am not lashing out at you just because I disagree with you.

I am not saying you don't know as much as me, but there must be a disconnect somewhere because again there is something really off about your opinions and logic in your OP about raids and raiders which you failed to answer much of my points about.

You are taking the disagreement personally. Instead of answering my points you are just...getting defensive about things I never even said and just because I explained I was a raider to answer your entire OP section claiming things about what content raiders do or don't do.

I explained I was a raider who did these things because your OP has a section entirely directed at raids and raiders. It was relevant to the discussion because you made it so in your OP and also relevant for me to explain my experiences and how it does not match up with your issues claiming that casuals have no incentives to run all this content and for raiders it is DoA.

I am sorry if this is kind of blunt, but I am not going to avoid saying I am a raider just because that fact somehow offends you.

As a raider none of the things you claimed were DoA for raiders were DoA for me or anyone else I know that raids. I also have incentives even as someone who has access to i370 savage gear to get the gear from other avenues as well even if they are not i370.

You claim casuals have no incentives to run this content, but if even a raider like me who has access to extra i370 gear still has incentives to do this other content and get this other gear then something doesn't add up with your ideas and opinions. There is logic missing here.

Whether you raided previously or not doesn't somehow make your opinions about raids and raiders suddenly make sense. Unless you can explain the problems with your logic that I pointed out?

If you know how it is to be a raider then you would know raiders have incentive to get tome gear, so why are you claiming tome gear is not worth the work? If you know how it is to be a raider then why would you claim there is no incentive to do trials? 24 mans? Raiders do all these things to help gear themselves.

If it is incentive for raiders even though they have access to more gear than non-raiders then why are you claiming there is no incentive for casuals to run this same content? It makes no sense.

If it is just your personal opinion that there is no incentives at all to run any of this content or get any of the gear available then fine, but in your OP you wrote it in a way where you are trying to speak for entire subsets of the community and not just yourself; which is why I replied and explained the issues with what you are claiming.

You don't have to raid and you don't have to agree with me, but people are not "judging you", we may be judging your opinions and ideas, but not you as a person or your skill level, so stop trying to turn it into that.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Tome gear upgrades to max item level for the current tier - the same item level as the gear that drops in savage. They could add maybe one more way to get some i370 gear during the catch up patch if you really wanted?? But it would still end up weekly locked in some way or time consuming to get and it won't be higher than the current tier.

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And I want to. And I'd very much like to have choices other than grind tomes or do content I don't even have fun with for gear with stats I don't even desire either.

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It won't make much of a difference. It also won't give you BiS because if a BiS piece is in savage then you would still have to do savage for it, since not all the "new" i370 gear will have the substats properly for it to overtake the savage piece as BiS.

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Uh.. yes it would? To many people who want to feel stronger. You cannot be i370 with every piece having Critical Hit/Direct Hit secondary because raid and tome don't supply that and we have no options at all to achieve it. If you want to ask me how can I decide what's worthless or not, I can ask how can you tell me how much having certain secondaries mean to me? Also I thought I made it clear that if a raid has a certain piece with certain stats I want, I'll just go do it.

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I mean you keep talking about incentives, but if you throw in i385 gear for example like your idea of "more powerful than raid gear stuff from other content during catch up patch" then it takes away part of the incentive to do the savage raids that people were progressing.

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Maybe the devs could do something else other than repeat the same raid cycle for the 9th time(literally) and have the raids come later.

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If you want BiS you have to do the savage fights. BiS is part of the incentive to dip into all content since you need to get a mixture of gear to get it.

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Again.. I made myself quite clear that if there was something I wanted from a raid I'd just do it. As I did in the past. The point is to have BiS at i370 not have i360 and i350 in random spots. The only reason why BiS is so limited is because we have so limited items. I'm not sure how you don't understand that. BiS is also defined differently by different people. Some people probably stack Crit>Direct>SS or Crit>SS>Direct whichever. Savage isn't even hard enough for computerized BiS to matter anyway. This section is literally what I suggested in the post I made earlier which I'm still not sure you read. Have a catch up patch where there are more i370 options and all of a sudden you have more ways to make BETTER BiS.

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You can get your big numbers by getting the max item level gear SE gives you via tomes and upgrades. If you make use of The Hunts you can even bypass weekly limits to upgrade your gear to max for the tier. You can be full i370 without raiding which is the max for this tier minus i375 weapon. Two ways to get to max gear for a tier are not enough? I guess if you have that opinion that's fine, but I don't agree, seems fine to me.

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Nope it's not to me. I want more options and if we were to have them, it's not like you would mind it right? Your fine with tomes and raid BiS set-up. This whole fiasco could've been settled with "I don't agree" instead of paragraphs.

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Explain to me why you think I should fix your issues for you?

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Never said I thought you should :p. Only that you aren't adding anything besides arguing about a single piece of my sectioned OP. And since you seem to think everything is okay, you could've even made a simple "I think the raid scene is fine" back on the first few pages and go. If I recall correctly this is the first time you actually said something along "I think it's all fine already" within all these pages. Could've said so earlier.

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I didn't assume anything. You are currently not progging or doing sigma savage and that is what I based my response off of and why I think you missed the holes in your OP's logic. It has nothing to do with if you were an Ex-raider or not, nor did I say that you have never raided. I also never claimed you can't raid or said anything at all about your skill level. You are bringing all of this into the discussion, not me.

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The moment you started talking to me with "As a raider myself" I took that as you already making the judgement that I'm not a raider so I don't know what I'm talking about. And you said it at least twice to clarify that you're a raider.

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I did not wake up on the wrong side of the bed just because I disagree with you.

I am not lashing out at you just because I disagree with you.

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I don't know Miste, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't confused as to a reason why your post even appeared at such a time. 51 pages after my OP was posted while you have been here for dozens of pages already. It looked like a sudden lash-out.

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I am not saying you don't know as much as me, but there must be a disconnect somewhere because again there is something really off about your opinions and logic in your OP about raids and raiders which you failed to answer much of my points about.

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There is no disconnect. I just don't agree with you and your vision of the raid scene. I don't see the logic in why you don't want more options for whatever reason, or anyone else to have more options. Is that a disconnect in you?

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You are taking the disagreement personally. Instead of answering my points you are just...getting defensive about things I never even said and just because I explained I was a raider to answer your entire OP section claiming things about what content raiders do or don't do.

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Ummmmm you quite randomly(in my eyes) made a really long post in defense of.. yourself(?) clearly because you were offended by my post. I merely responded in defense to you being very defensive at first. You're the one who made the post directed to me after all. And judging by the bold letters, the "do you even play this game?" and the 10 question marks at the bottom, observation tells me you were unsettled by my post, a single section I might add, as I don't normally see you post on the forum in the way you just did there. So pardon me for not understanding what even happened.

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I explained I was a raider who did these things because your OP has a section entirely directed at raids and raiders. It was relevant to the discussion because you made it so in your OP and also relevant for me to explain my experiences and how it does not match up with your issues claiming that casuals have no incentives to run all this content and for raiders it is DoA.

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Okay, raider to raider then. I don't like that the only content for me to do to get gear that's ilvl cap is a raid or a tome. Because I, as a raider, won't feel like doing the raid at all if the gear from it isn't to my personal liking. Also, as a raider without a static, I get sick of grinding out 8 weeks to get 2 measly pieces of gear because RNG decided I wouldn't get anything for my time, effort, and skill I put in the actual duty. *I* would like to have the perfect stats I dream of and if that includes raids and random pieces from 4 different i370 sets then so be it. That would be my choice...something that this game sorely lacks.

And lastly, as a raider I personally feel like 24mans are a waste of time outside of the single token a week(Temporary because eventually all tome pieces will be upgraded) because the gear from it, regardless of stats, is already lower ilvl with no way to upgrade it. And I have to deal with the RNG of the piece I want dropping, then the annoying winning rolls over me because I never win. If I could upgrade it I'd actually do it. Do you understand my motives yet? And EX primals in catch-up patches are worthless because if I already have a tome weapon or heaven forbid, savage weapon why would I even care? Unless by the grace of goodness the tome weapon had crappy stats already in which case I'd stick with he first primal weapon. Of course, maybe I'd actually do the late EX primals if they gave something useful like jewelry?.

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I am sorry if this is kind of blunt, but I am not going to avoid saying I am a raider just because that fact somehow offends you.

As a raider none of the things you claimed were DoA for raiders were DoA for me or anyone else I know that raids. I also have incentives even as someone who has access to i370 savage gear to get the gear from other avenues as well even if they are not i370.

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So are you saying you want to purposely try to offend me? I feel so pretty and loved right now.

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You claim casuals have no incentives to run this content, but if even a raider like me who has access to extra i370 gear still has incentives to do this other content and get this other gear then something doesn't add up with your ideas and opinions. There is logic missing here.

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Or maybe you have different motives? Desires? I don't feel like gearing my DRG. Maybe you would. That's your desire. There's no missing logic.

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Whether you raided previously or not doesn't somehow make your opinions about raids and raiders suddenly make sense. Unless you can explain the problems with your logic that I pointed out?

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Are you the voice of raiders or am I the voice of raiders?

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If you know how it is to be a raider then you would know raiders have incentive to get tome gear, so why are you claiming tome gear is not worth the work? If you know how it is to be a raider then why would you claim there is no incentive to do trials? 24 mans? Raiders do all these things to help gear themselves.

If it is incentive for raiders even though they have access to more gear than non-raiders then why are you claiming there is no incentive for casuals to run this same content? It makes no sense.

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Already answered this. It makes perfect sense. I simply don't share your vision. And some casual players like feeling powerful or having a great set-up just because they want it. Maybe they think seeing 3,000 skill speed is cool. That should be their choice. Raiders don't need i370 to beat savage so why do they need i370 right?(excluding those who do Ultimate)

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If it is just your personal opinion that there is no incentives at all to run any of this content or get any of the gear available then fine, but in your OP you wrote it in a way where you are trying to speak for entire subsets of the community and not just yourself; which is why I replied and explained the issues with what you are claiming.

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It's been awhile, did I forget to add "In my opinion" at the section? I'm too tired, typing this on a phone.

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You don't have to raid and you don't have to agree with me, but people are not "judging you", we may be judging your opinions and ideas, but not you as a person or your skill level, so stop trying to turn it into that.

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If you can stop reminding me that you're a raider sure, I'll stop. I never wanted to derail my thread further and am sick of the raider conversation. Also that other guy definitely spoke poorly of me.

Can we not do this anymore? This thing was like 40,000 characters.

So we are at the Point were we dont even get a f#### trainler at the live letter huh? nice...

The lack of a trailer is pretty disappointing. It should have been made in advance given that it's the only major part of the Live Letter that the English speaking audience understands. Furthermore, a lot of the things discussed in the Live Letter is stuff we already knew or was very obvious. Why, exactly, do we need a slide to tell us that new MSQ's are being added? We know that. It's obvious.

my goldfish died this morning

how could raiders do this to my poor goldfish

those damn raiders

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's really no need for this level of hostility. I don't know what's happened to the official forum lately but it used to be a lot more pleasant. The sheer amount of posters who are unable to agree to disagree and deliberately assume the very worst about the people they claim to be engaging with both on this board and the lore board is baffling.

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It's a perfect storm of absolute crap. Frustration of the game's design direction having apparently stagnated since the start of HW (it's really not a good thing when most of the community is able to accurately guess how 90% of the content is going to be laid out for the next patch before the details are actually released, if not the -entire expansion cycle- itself), a lot of good people having been banned from the forums for a variety of reasons, and it all results in the community lashing out at each other.

For being the second most popular MMO right now, there aren't really any major fansites too, just databases. Of the few large organized communities and fansites there are, some have drowned in their own drama because the owners decided they wanted to be disgusting human beings. Of the two or three major discussion venues (this forum, Reddit, and Balance Discord), all of them have major, major problems with elitism, cliques, and general idiocy. The people in-game may be nice, but I wonder how much of that is the in-game community actually being nice, or most sane people are smart enough to avoid engaging with the community outside of the game at large.

I think another problem is, I think we're reaching a point where people in this community take *any* criticism as a personal attack. The 'you don't pay my sub!' statement exists for a reason. We really shouldn't be surprised when people take that concept out of the game and into virtually everywhere else at varying degrees.

(Although I really don't see the hostility you describe on the lore board, unless something has changed in the past month.)

Going back to the topic of the community mentality towards the developers and content release cycle, though... I was an official moderator for a different MMO, once. Some people probably remember me mentioning that too many times before. Thing is, I noticed a gradual shift in that community that I am starting to see within FFXIV, and it worries me greatly. That game ALSO had a content release cycle that was almost entirely predictable, one that gone on for about 5-6 years before the developers made a series of really bad design decisions that basically woke up the community. A lot of people in a short amount of time started to re-evaluate why they were still playing a game where the developers clearly weren't listening to the community. All this, while the community itself descended into madness, resulting in a cycle of frustration - at the developers, people lashing out at anyone who will listen in the belief that the developers aren't, friends leaving the game, players feeling left behind and remaining in the hopes that things will get better enough for said friends to return. Only it didn't, and people just kept calling it quits. And this was a Korean F2P MMO.

I keep telling myself that FFXIV won't go down that path, but... I am honestly becoming less and less confident of that as time goes on. If you were to ask me where the state of FFXIV's 'community relations' is in, compared to the previous MMO I played and moderated for... Considering the reaction to Pagos and the incredible amount of 'hurr raiders/parsers are hurting the design direction of this game' threads, I'd say we're somewhere right before the series of bad decisions that caused most of the community to ask why they are still here.

(What happened to Dragon Nest is quite frankly something that should be required knowledge for any online game developer, but alas, the host transfer of the NA version from Nexon to Eyedentity wiped a lot of records.)

Eureka takes 1 step forward and 10 steps backwards, especially when you make content for casuals only for casuals to abandon it due to it not being worth the time of day.

What the OP stated about raids influencing every other aspect of the game is dead on. Think about it, if there were no mounts in the ex trials there would be no point in doing them.

I hope 5.0 gets a major rework of the system. Especially since it wont come out until late summer 2019.

Can we all take two steps back and calm a bit down? The last few pages honestly were just attacks from people on both sides. (More or less passive aggressive posts from some people; not all!)

Maybe we can focus on other parts of the game next to raiding? Because seemingly that seems to be a hot topic. Whats your opinion on the over world? What would you change with it? What would you change with glamours or the leveling system?

To start:

I already posted about the over world. I want it to have more details in it like animals, NPCs and things like that and I want more lore that can be found in an way. Maybe even have a solo questline that takes you through the whole map with different challenges that will reward you with lore information, certain pets and other things at the end. This way people can work on this on their own time, they use the map and there are rewards.

I also wish we had more settlements that we can help rebuilt. Doma is nice but still done way too fast per week, so having more of them would be great. Maybe the Doma style for major cities and for settlements they might want to have certain items that you can craft or gather or you have to kill monsters to help them. Just something that you can do when you want and since we have quite some maps this could be a longer investment too. A reputation system for each map would be nice, where you can do zone quests and other stuff for the people in that map and gain reputation for them and you will see changes over time too. I know its already kinda in the game with the tribes but I want this with a larger scale for the whole map.

Glamours: I still hope that we one day get a glamour book. It would help a great way if you have this and see what glamours exist and where to get it. Chasing after a completion of this book would be a great way to keep me busy for quite some time and solve quite some inventory problems. Also this imo celebrates the work that they have put into the gear more because you wont be just throwing them away. Also I do hope that they will lift the restriction on who can wear what. Its utterly frustrating to see NPCs in different restricted gear but somehow our WoL cant do that.

Still we cant sweet talk it, the way gear is made, savage always gives us a early limit how high we get... it sucks the even numbered patch limits all following gear >_>

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Can we not do this anymore? This thing was like 40,000 characters.

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If you can stop making suggestions that are detrimental to the content that we enjoy we can stop arguing with you about them.

If you want to keep doing things like blaming Savage for casual gear stagnation and asking for them to start raids later then... no, we probably won't 'not do this anymore' because you are saying things that would make this game significantly less enjoyable.

I'm sure if I was calling for the invalidation/delay/downscaling of your absolute favorite kind of context under what you deeemd to be false or just plain stupid pretexts you would want to argue against it as well.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The lack of a trailer is pretty disappointing. It should have been made in advance given that it's the only major part of the Live Letter that the English speaking audience understands. Furthermore, a lot of the things discussed in the Live Letter is stuff we already knew or was very obvious. Why, exactly, do we need a slide to tell us that new MSQ's are being added? We know that. It's obvious.

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What I'm honestly really curious of is what kind of content could we possibly be getting in 4.4 and 4.5? By 4.3, Heaven-On-High has concluded, the last beast tribe scheduled was Namazu, there won't be any more Ultimates, so where will the content even be? What will it be? Eureka is releasing at 4.45 and not even 4.4. So are we seriously getting just MSQ, 2 dungeons, trial, and raid tier for 4.4 and MSQ, 1 dungeon, trial, and 24man for 4.5 plus Eureka with each of them at 4.x5? Gosh I hope not. The drought would be insane.

I'll laugh if they release the new Rival Wings or some Gold Saucer mini-game as the fill-ins.

Hmm that's odd my previous post seems to have gone missing, I wonder what could have possibly happened.Really gets the noggin joggin

No trailer LL, and (excluding the dev break of 3.1) for the first time since the game launched dev time increased by 1 more week with no extra content being added.

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Originally Posted by 24spencer

my goldfish died this morning

how could raiders do this to my poor goldfish

those damn raiders

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We all told the goldfish not to stand in front of the laser. We all did try, but they stayed in the AoE and told the healers to adjust.

were we supposed to get a trailer?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's really no need for this level of hostility. I don't know what's happened to the official forum lately but it used to be a lot more pleasant. The sheer amount of posters who are unable to agree to disagree and deliberately assume the very worst about the people they claim to be engaging with both on this board and the lore board is baffling.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I think another problem is, I think we're reaching a point where people in this community take *any* criticism as a personal attack. The 'you don't pay my sub!' statement exists for a reason. We really shouldn't be surprised when people take that concept out of the game and into virtually everywhere else at varying degrees.

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If you notice, it's the same people, in every thread. If people "lurk more" before posting they'd notice that certain posters have red buttons that you can press by mentioning the same thing, over and over.

Like this thread, the same 6 people dogpile on everyone any time someone mentions raiding in a negative context. EVERY time.

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

were we supposed to get a trailer?

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It's delayed apparently, it should be out sometime during the week.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you notice, it's the same people, in every thread. If people "lurk more" before posting they'd notice that certain posters have red buttons that you can press by mentioning the same thing, over and over.

Like this thread, the same 6 people dogpile on everyone any time someone mentions raiding in a negative context. EVERY time.

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It couldn't be because those six people (it's far more than six) have grown tired of their preferred content being blamed for literally every issue the game has? A good portion of threads either fault raiders or parsers when it's simply poor development and lackluster content. If these people, whom I'll no doubt assume you count me among, were wrong? Why is it their posts are typically agreed with and liked whereas those they reply to wind up on a twitter feed to be laughed at?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It couldn't be because those six people (it's far more than six) have grown tired of their preferred content being blamed for literally every issue the game has? A good portion of threads either fault raiders or parsers when it's simply poor development and lackluster content. If these people, whom I'll no doubt assume you count me among, were wrong? Why is it their posts are typically agreed with and liked whereas those they reply to wind up on a twitter feed to be laughed at?

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Omg, I'm counted among the six now....? I don't even raid that perfectly. I'm not sure if I should feel honored or confused.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It couldn't be because those six people (it's far more than six) have grown tired of their preferred content being blamed for literally every issue the game has? A good portion of threads either fault raiders or parsers when it's simply poor development and lackluster content. If these people, whom I'll no doubt assume you count me among, were wrong? Why is it their posts are typically agreed with and liked whereas those they reply to wind up on a twitter feed to be laughed at?

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Astroturfing likes means nothing. If it's the same six people liking each other posts, just to inflate their "medals" for whatever reason, like they're playing a game on the forum.

I'm really sad that Chaos is Seph reskinned. No original model? come on. Same with Suzaku she's literally the T12 boss. SE, what's going on?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you notice, it's the same people, in every thread. If people "lurk more" before posting they'd notice that certain posters have red buttons that you can press by mentioning the same thing, over and over.

Like this thread, the same 6 people dogpile on everyone any time someone mentions raiding in a negative context. EVERY time.

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You mean, kind of like it tends to be the same couple of people that, every time anything related to endgame or DPS or healer DPS or harder dungeons - or, sometimes, something else entirely unrelated - is mentioned, come in to hijack a thread with anti-raider/anti-parser nonsense? Those same couple of people who cannot see beyond their own personal bias, and make blanket generalizations against an entire subset of players (sometimes even an entire server) just because they dislike someone on this forum? Or because of an incident that happens eons ago? Because that also happened in this thread with one of those individuals a few pages back. And now the other one has arrived to, once again, contribute their own nonsense.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Astroturfing likes means nothing. If it's the same six people liking each other posts, just to inflate their "medals" for whatever reason, like they're playing a game on the forum.

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It's cute that you think I would care about silly likes or medals on a discussion forum. I'm quite certain you count me among those "six" you referred to. Just based off of our previous encounters and discussions.

I like things I agree with. Doesn't matter who posts them. Even people I've disagreed with in the past have posted comments later on that I find reasonable or agree with.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you notice, it's the same people, in every thread. If people "lurk more" before posting they'd notice that certain posters have red buttons that you can press by mentioning the same thing, over and over.

Like this thread, the same 6 people dogpile on everyone any time someone mentions raiding in a negative context. EVERY time.

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Does this mean you'll just start liking posts promoting zero dps healers instead of making rants of your own?

No, because (for whatever reason) you care about that.

We care about raiding, what's so hard to understand about that?

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Omg, I'm counted among the six now....? I don't even raid that perfectly. I'm not sure if I should feel honored or confused.

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Welcome! My discord is moromurasaki#5719, I can have your 't o x i c | e l i t i s t' pin sent out to you within 48 business hours.