Please Allow 50's to Enter Ishgard w/o having completed MSQ

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Originally Posted by berries

I wish I could properly discuss about the access to Ishgard lore/story wise, but for the moment I can't. But what I saw reading/skimming trough this thread, they are very xenophobic there and don't allow anyone else in than the "hero?" player... singular.. as in as far story is concerned only one is let it? And if that's the case how it's explained in the story that there's actually ton of players there? Now I'm probably all wrong with these so shoot me down if I am and if possible correct me without any major spoilers, please

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It's pretty simple: it happens cause every player is "the hero or heroine" who beat the MSQ like in the WHM JQ you end up being the choosen one, but obviously you're not the only one WHM in the game, are you not? LOL

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Originally Posted by berries

But what I saw reading/skimming trough this thread, they are very xenophobic there and don't allow anyone else in than the "hero?" player... singular.. as in as far story is concerned only one is let it? And if that's the case how it's explained in the story that there's actually ton of players there? Now I'm probably all wrong with these so shoot me down if I am and if possible correct me without any major spoilers, please

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Not hero, heroes. The cutscene prior to the last trial explicity mentionned "help from the free companieS" and suggest that you "gather a group of adventurerS"

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Speaking for myself, I loved 1.0, loved 2.0, and I'm confident that 3.0 will be loved as well.

And I did mention mistakes in your quoted text. I am aware how much they realized there was a problem, and went to extraordinary lengths to ensure that the Final Fantasy brand was not tainted. They rebooted an entire MMO. NOBODY does that, nor did anyone expect it to happen so smoothly. And again, such a retcon would be extremely risky on their part because of what FF stands for, and how it would taint their brand.

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I actually dabbled in 1.0 too for a little.. the story part was little thin back then and it couldn't keep me interested.. The gameplay mechanics were fine to me otherwise. I'm pretty much omnivore with MMOs... just as long the story(ies) keeps my interest... and it doesn't get too difficult. The Realm Reborn turn around was a happy turn around for the whole insustry, I would say, meaning evrything can happen.

If a new player really wants to be one of the 3 new jobs, that player just has to get in a cool FC and get rushed to the end of 2.55 in a few days by a Lv.60 team carrying that player into low level dungeons and all that stuff.
In less that a week that player will have its new shiny job.

But that's a really little minority so... no real problem here.

Same deal with "I'm a crafter/gatherer! I don't care about the story or fighting stuff!". Just get yourself carried, take the insane exp the MSQ will give and call it a day.
Woah, big deal.

Pretty sure that for anylone past 2.55, the official line is that due to the brave actions of the Warrior of Light, and some persuasion from Lord Hauchefant and Aymeric, all adventurers who participated in the battle to protect Ishgard will be permitted in. You and your 7 fellows saved Steps of Faith, but there were at least 3-4 other battles going on simultaneously that could account for the thousands of other people.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

They are implementing a system where you can enter dungeons with fewer than the required amount of people. I can't recall if this applies for 8 man content too.

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A preformed party can enter a dungeon with less than the ideal number of players. They can choose to have no level sync at all and blaze through it at full power or they can choose to have the lowest minimum level sync for a greater challange. They are also making it so we can do "Practice Runs" of boss fights so we can learn them without having to go through all the trash in between. On top of all that they are going to implement a NPC squad from your GC (I think) that allows you to build and level up your own party of NPC's. More details to come, most likely in the patch notes.

I can't even see the 'new player' argument from a new player's perspective. I recently started a new character in a jerkwad lalafell (whom I used for the recent screenshot contest... which has that been judged yet or what?) and I've been having fun. It's been telling how I've forgot some of the small details of the story of early 2.0 (you'd think after repeating it several times over the Betas that'd not be possible... /shrug). Do I want to have them fly to Ishgard once that lands... no. It wouldn't make sense. They've only just started making a name for themselves with the three nations, much less set foot in Coerthas or even Toll for that matter. Really no point in them even going there before they should even be there. I'm content in working up through the story, and I'm one of those 'filthy casuals' that seems to be championed all of a sudden.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not hero, heroes. The cutscene prior to the last trial explicity mentionned "help from the free companieS" and suggest that you "gather a group of adventurerS"

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Okay so if that is the case and others.. and perhaps more mundane people are let in there. Was there some story limitation for someone going there who haven't done the story. As I see it, story wise that person would be considered just a another person going there helping with however he or she can.. just not with the story parts.. or did I misunderstand that now?

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Originally Posted by berries

or did I misunderstand that now?

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yup. Honestly? Just play through it and then form your opinion, instead of deciding why it may or may not be broken by how it might hypothetically work. Explaining how the story works in detail without spoilers is kinda impossible.

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Originally Posted by berries

more mundane people are let in there.

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Mundane people are only citizens of Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by berries

I wish I could properly discuss about the access to Ishgard lore/story wise, but for the moment I can't. But what I saw reading/skimming trough this thread, they are very xenophobic there and don't allow anyone else in than the "hero?" player... singular.. as in as far story is concerned only one is let it? And if that's the case how it's explained in the story that there's actually ton of players there? Now I'm probably all wrong with these so shoot me down if I am and if possible correct me without any major spoilers, please

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WOW have we really reached the point where people ask this ok.

So you play the WoL Isgaurd gets opened not just to you but all other adventurers (please don't please no one say then why can't every one get in and have to do the main story because we all the WoL people) because you showed them how useful they can be that's why you see a whole bunch of other people there.

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Originally Posted by berries

...or did I misunderstand that now?

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Yes, but you kind of answered your own question in the Vishap example. See, yes, as far as the world is involved you are the only Warrior of Light and everyone else is just 'an adventurer'. But all those other adventurers who also fought Vishap with the Warrior of Light earned their entry by, get this, also fighting Vishap. That is, they are up at that point in the storyline as well. They aren't 'just mundane people'. Ishgard saw the potential of adventurers because they'd earned that attention. An adventurer that only managed to get their airship pass so they could fly around and unlock the Land and Hand classes doesn't exist as far as Ishgard's vision goes. Why should they 'scratch your back', if you don't even want to look at their's?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not hero, heroes. The cutscene prior to the last trial explicity mentionned "help from the free companieS" and suggest that you "gather a group of adventurerS"

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I always imagine it's like this reverse "party in your pocket" thing.
You know how normally in FFs before XI, your party would kind of "merge" with you on overland zones?
Well here and XI it's the opposite: they're implied to be "merged" with you for story cutscenes!
This makes more sense when you realize Japanese doesn't have standard noun pluralization (adding -tachi to the noun just makes it "X's group, or "group of X," it's not a standard pluralization.) so when they call you 英雄 (eiyuu) the word they use for "Warrior of Light", the could be referring to you singularly or collectively.
So "The Warrior of Light is escaping!"
and "The Warriors of Light are escaping!" would translate exactly the same (well, they can, you can also use 英雄たち (eiyuu-tachi) but yeah)

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

Same reason why you don't die from gun shots and sword swipes in Final Fantasy.

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phoenix down?

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Originally Posted by Chevrefoil

I personally would like a little flexibility on this (maybe not having to finish all the patch content, but only the original 2.0 MSQ)....I have a number of friends who just started playing recently and are still working on the MSQ. It takes a long time if you just started.

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And they better hurry as all the Heavensward content will disappear when Yoshie deletes everything with a hotfix in mid july. Oh, wait, he won't. This is not a race like at the end of 1.0. The content isn't going anywhere. In fact as time goes one it will only increase. A lot.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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The game has referenced us as "warriors of light" on numerous occasions, at least htey did on the trial descriptions (ramuh EX is one I can name off the top of my head).

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Originally Posted by Dererk

WOW have we really reached the point where people ask this ok.

So you play the WoL Isgaurd gets opened not just to you but all other adventurers (please don't please no one say then why can't every one get in and have to do the main story because we all the WoL people) because you showed them how useful they can be that's why you see a whole bunch of other people there.

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All I asked was a lore/story justification/clarification about the entry... and this next one does it nicely I think

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Yes, but you kind of answered your own question in the Vishap example. See, yes, as far as the world is involved you are the only Warrior of Light and everyone else is just 'an adventurer'. But all those other adventurers who also fought Vishap with the Warrior of Light earned their entry by, get this, also fighting Vishap. That is, they are up at that point in the storyline as well. They aren't 'just mundane people'. Ishgard saw the potential of adventurers because they'd earned that attention. An adventurer that only managed to get their airship pass so they could fly around and unlock the Land and Hand classes doesn't exist as far as Ishgard's vision goes. Why should they 'scratch your back', if you don't even want to look at their's?

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Thank you for the answer.. though this "if you don't even want to look at their's?" leaves me puzzled, but I guess I need to find that out why it's like that myself.. somehow

Anyway keeping track with this thread is becoming so time consuming now. I guess all I wanted to say I'm not really happy about expansion gating like that, but there's really nothing that can be done about it now.

It seems like all that has been brought up since my last post was that some people don't care about the story, or feel like it's a chore to do the quests.

Honestly, the MSQ makes leveling 1000x easier than every other MMO I've ever played. It's pretty much a fast lane to 50 if you do it. Not only does it express you to 50, but it also teaches you nearly every mechanic that you will encounter by the begining of the end game raids, and in all of the end game dungeons, via the required duties to progress, plus it provides gear, and gil. Add on top of that that all of the quests will now grant even better gear, and more exp, and that 2.1-2.55 quests will now help you cut into level 50+, and it's honestly a god send for people who want to get to end game FAST. The alternative is grinding FATEs, duty roulettes, hunting logs and challenge log... which is what you have to do if you want to level a second job.

Point is, Ishgard and all of its content are level 50+ content. It exists to supplement the people who have all ready been at end game for a while now, and it serves to make that path to end game that much easier for new people. Every MMO has end game, every MMO makes you work (and in our case, teaches you how to play so that you're ready for end game) to get there. FFXIV is extremely forgiving on that side.

Not to sound old, but I spent 3 years playing FFXI, hardcore sometimes, casual sometimes, and I never even got to end game. I've never achieved max level in ANY other MMO. I got end game in 2.0 on my arcanist (since I had everything else at 50) playing casually (meaning a few nights a week)for about a month, watching every cutscene and reading all NPC dialogue.

Gotta do work to get things you want. It's like this everywhere.

This is just one more way to screw up the RMT as well. You guys should be happy they are gating this.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

This is just one more way to screw up the RMT as well. You guys should be happy they are gating this.

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RMT already does the MSQ. And spamming unfortunately wont be gated.

Ew no,if I had to spend hours throughout it, I want all the new people to do the same.
-Denied

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Originally Posted by Fortified

Why are you all even still arguing? They aren't going to change it.

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And again.

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Originally Posted by Fortified

And again.

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They really really want their crafting bots and desynth alts in Ishgard..

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

They really really want their crafting bots and desynth alts in Ishgard..

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Ironicly, playing an MMO that are usually about stories, people do not want to actually do stories. if these people want to craft and what not then do it, they clearly do not need the expansion if gill is all that matters to you. oh, but of course you'll need to cash in on the new items now won't you? Better get to those story quests then, one mule/alt/bot at a time.

In others words, Deal with it. It's not changing.

NO! To OP! NO NO NO!

Maybe in the next exp pack... They can open it, but not for this one. Thank you and good day!

Don't meen to sound like a jerk but..No..just..no..seems to be a excuse to get to hw without the work put in..or to take new jobs that are not earned. Most online games I have played you needed to reach a certain lvl to complete a quest/part of a storyline to get access to do new things or get to new area's. Or you can try to get to new area's and die in 1 hit because your lvl is not hight enough. Same with all final fantasy games. "Yha terra joined party now lets kill Kefka..game over in 10 min"..just dosent work that way. Instant gratification for nothing earned?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hmmm yeah, and what's the problem ? Bless them, for they have a lot of content to have fun with.

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Waiting hours in df for the soon to be irrelevant to queue for trials is loads of fun.

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Originally Posted by Naruil

Don't meen to sound like a jerk but..No..just..no..seems to be a excuse to get to hw without the work put in..or to take new jobs that are not earned. Most online games I have played you needed to reach a certain lvl to complete a quest/part of a storyline to get access to do new things or get to new area's. Or you can try to get to new area's and die in 1 hit because your lvl is not hight enough. Same with all final fantasy games. "Yha terra joined party now lets kill Kefka..game over in 10 min"..just dosent work that way. Instant gratification for nothing earned?

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Level and story gated content are not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Waiting hours in df for the soon to be irrelevant to queue for trials is loads of fun.

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I've lost count how many times in this thread alone that this false claim has been disproven because of the modifications to first time players' duty finder access.

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Originally Posted by DarthBuzzer

Level and story gated content are not the same thing.

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They are when the fastest way to level.... is via story.

While I personally have no qualms doing all the MSQ to have a character access the expansion stuff (in a way, it's kind of already like that in other MMOs, except that the only gate is the character's level), I have seen others refer to the 2.55 MSQ requirement as the "MSQ Cockblock". And I've seen others whom recently started playing and have canceled their subscriptions because they won't be able to access the expansion if they do not complete the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Noshpan

While I personally have no qualms doing all the MSQ to have a character access the expansion stuff (in a way, it's kind of already like that in other MMOs, except that the only gate is the character's level), I have seen others refer to the 2.55 MSQ requirement as the "MSQ Cockblock". And I've seen others whom recently started playing and have canceled their subscriptions because they won't be able to access the expansion if they do not complete the MSQ.

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Hate to say it, but then a Final Fantasy game was not the correct game for them.

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Originally Posted by berries

Okay so if that is the case and others.. and perhaps more mundane people are let in there. Was there some story limitation for someone going there who haven't done the story. As I see it, story wise that person would be considered just a another person going there helping with however he or she can.. just not with the story parts.. or did I misunderstand that now?

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You misunderstand everything
Chronologically the "Step of Faith" event haven't happened yet in that characters story.
It is like if you say "Millions of players have already defeated Ifrit (storymode), why can't my lv1 character join a Grand Company to get his Chocobo?"

First visit in Coerthas -> everyone see in you a stranger, a trouble on 2 legs. Some even want to kill you

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Well here and XI it's the opposite: they're implied to be "merged" with you for story cutscenes!

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Except you see them during specific cutscene. At the end of Praetorium, or in the Coil, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n08YJ1-sD0

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I've very much enjoyed the story, and I don't really get why other people don't enjoy it. But, hey, different strokes etc.

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Mixed. Story had some great moments and all but on the whole it felt kind of lacking. but to me this is a difficulty thing. struggling turmoils and primal threats and all that stuff but you don't ever feel the supposed threat when you can pretty much blast through it all with no real sense of danger.

I get they made it easy for casual gamers but in making it easy they really dampened the emotional aspect. in a way you don't really "connect" to the story cos the major threat to the lands is laughably easy to overcome.

as for ishgard it should be locked off I think. but given that the main story was designed in such a way that its there to level new players up. it's really not a problem that they have to do it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except you see them during specific cutscene. At the end of Praetorium, or in the Coil, for example.

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Each of THOSE people has a few thousand within them :3

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Originally Posted by Naruil

Don't meen to sound like a jerk but..No..just..no..seems to be a excuse to get to hw without the work put in..or to take new jobs that are not earned. Most online games I have played you needed to reach a certain lvl to complete a quest/part of a storyline to get access to do new things or get to new area's.

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Do not take this the wrong way, however: What work?

Simply put, the jobs are level 30 each. Thus, the requirement to unlocking them, likewise, should be a level 30 of Any job. The only "Work" people should be required to do in order to get access to the jobs is buying the expansion, clearing any pre-leveling required (Like we did for our base jobs), and completing a quest. At that point, it should be unlocked to them.

The things that should be locked behind MSQ:
- Story.
- MAYBE special areas, but not an entire expansion. Even FFXI knew this - you could get access to special high-level areas, but you were never gated from the other zones. Quite the contrary, many a time the game introduced areas specifically for lower-levels.
- Quests, due to level (I.E. DRK being a level 30 quest is accessible, but you can'd to the first quest in the zone because it's level 50 - out of your range)

By doing things this way, SE only succeeds in dividing the playerbase, and making people play the game on jobs they're not truly interested in. I genuinly hope there aren't people who have cancelled their preorder until such a time that they will actually be able to -play- the content they're paying for, because that means we're losing sales for it.

Baiting with a level 30 job just seems cruel in its own way.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

Allowing access to Ishgard without MSQ would make no sense at all. The Ishgardians have absolutely no reason to open the gates other than MSQ.
Tying the new jobs to MSQ does make some sense, but it could be done without, but they would have to put the guilds somewhere, and all the cities are pretty full.

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You know what, I respect you. You kinda feel both ends of the sword with your post and I like it a lot in that regard. You're right - cities are very much so "Full" right now... for classes. But these are jobs we're talking about, and there's a whole world out there that coudl be filled with the new jobs.

Warrior: Costa Del Sol [East Side]
Paladin: Ul'dah
White Mage: South Shroud [South]
Scholar: Limsa
Black Mage: Ul'dah/Eastern Thanalan
Summoner: Gridania
Bard: South Shroud [North]
Monk: Ul'dah I think? I dunno. Chakra.
Ninja: Easter La Noscea [West Side]
Dragoon: Coerthas

Unused:
Central Shroud, East Shroud, North Shroud, Western Thanalan, Central Thanalan, Southern Thanalan, Northern Thanalan, Middle La Noscea, Lower La Noscea, Western La Noscea, Upper La Noscea, Outer La Noscea

The world's very much so got a ton of space available, as you can see. There's 3-4 zones open per region, and when it comes to jobs, most jobs aren't in major cities. There's plenty of ways to tackle that, but I will admit - adding it to the new zones will be interesting and fun, and allows for more freedome in the characters.

As for "Making Sense", I'll tackle that with the next guy:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, opening Ishgard is a major plot point of the game, and it even started in 1.0. I don't want the whole world to lose its consistency just because people only want to play the new jobs...
Cause, basically, this is the only problem...if you haven't done MSQ yet, you have plenty of things to do with your already level 50 job before whining about how you can't access Ishgard. ven moreso if you aren't lvl 50.
As for other adventurers, no you're not the "only one". It's mentionned frequently that the cities will seek adventurerS to help (And even Free Company), and you even have some adventurers NPC.

The "you're the only one" part refers to the "Warrior Of Light" status (And even that is not really unique, per se), but you can't actually ever "see" another adventurer with such a blessing while playing.

The good thing of this topic, it's that we'll maybe get rid of all the players who want to throw the lore out of the window just to unlock the new "fancy" content, in a franchise famous for its lore. Good riddance.

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You say "Lose its consistency", I say "Constantly evolving world"... Both are their own respective avenues, and both have pro's / cons to them. As we're seeing with this topic. I won't deny that you're right - having a straight story path is nice. I enjoyed the story myself, but my issue comes in the form of if I ever choose to make an alt, I'd have to go through it all AGAIN (And btw, I've already done it once for one of my alts... it's a mindnumbing process and so boring at that point.)

Plenty of things to do for a leveling player who is new to the game, going from 50-> Heavensward? The only thing the players will have to do is the MSQ. They might opt to stop and do all the level 50 dungouns, but I don't see why they would do that. Most players will be persuing what they want, and neither you nor I can speak for them in what they want.

It's mentionned frequently that the cities will seek adventurerS to help - So why can't a level 30 adventurer be of any help? Let's face it - this could easily be a sidequest. A "Temporary Access to Ishgard" permit of sorts. A pass to allow you in pre-heavensward... or perhaps even a quest to smuggle yourself in. Only being given clean access to Heavensward once it was "Earned." There are ways to write it while maintaining the integrity of the story.

Or perhaps... The trainers can send an NPC out to the world, seeking able-bodied (level 30) adventurers... And when you speak to them, they warp you to the NPC in Ishgard for your training, then send you back out. They're training you. Making you indebted to them. It could even be a cool flag in the story.

The simple fact of the matter is, this gating is rather foolish because it only negatively affects new players. New players are the life's blood of FFXIV. Trust me, there's plenty of thigns I dislike that a new player would h ate me for saying I dislike - and that's the way it works. But trying to say "Good riddance" to new players is just being stubborn.

Honestly, If they had made the classes level 50 to start, I'd be more receptive to the idea of them being locked in heavensward. But for some reason, SE makes you hit level 50, complete MSQ, only to take 20 steps backwards in levels to unlock the new jobs... Doesn't that seem a bit silly? The jobs are clearly designed with some degree of fostering some better low-level environments and getting us veteran/all 50's to go back to them. So why not help those who also want to play them sooner by getting them hooked/interested sooner?

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Each of THOSE people has a few thousand within them :3

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Yea, the amount of people involved is much less important than the chronology of events within the MSQ's internal lore.


What I do empathize with is the classes though.
You shouldn't have to get to 50 and then finish all post 50 MSQ, just to get go back to 30 as a new class and deal with ARR all over again (even if leveling isn't so bad).

I think the new classes should've started at 50 so you can move forward in Ishgard with the new Ishgard level Jobs.
It even makes more sense for the Job quests to take place in Ishgard (though I guess we'll see).

I feel like they're only 30 so that there'll be people doing the older content while the new one is released.
That's fine, but that's only likely an issue for launch.

I'd be fine with it too if they planned to up it to 50 later, but that's unlikely due to how Job quests are designed.

Number 1 reason people buy expansion? To try out the new classes and level in new zones. Neither of those are possible with this expansion so no matter what anyone says this is the single most idiotic business decision a company can make. I am sure your precious "lore" will do you good when the number on purchases are abysmally low and they start decreasing development effort.