Here's why I will not support this healer strike.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

We literally had this design in SB with healer DPS kits (where they were more popular than the tanks) the healers were still primarily healers but they actually had something to do that’s not broil, that doesn’t mean they need to do “more” damage, just do the damage they alr set do in a more interesting way

Even WOW has this, WOW healers barely spend 10% of their time doing DPS and they still have kits that are more complex than our healers, same as our tanks, they are also support, in traditional MMO’s tanks didn’t do damage, they had defensives and hate generates but neither really did damage, why are tanks “allowed” to have full DPS rotations

The idea that healers only heal is predicted upon an encounter design that actually forces the healer to heal. In modern 14 the healer isn’t healing almost at all. So you can either make the damage more interesting or up the damage, upping damage raises the skill floor so the better option is to make the damage more interesting

As for my PCT comment I never said PCT can replace a healer I’m saying star prism having a heal adds nothing to PCT but gives the healers less to heal, it’s not useful in solo content as you can only use star prism once per 2 minutes, it’s just a heal there for the sake of it l, that’s a heal that doesn’t need to exist

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Yep and the dancer with it's group heal and group shield aren't needed? The summoners rez and heal aren't needed? I don't know how many times the summoners rez saved a group when both healers died. The were able to rez one and that healer got the other healer up. Red mages rez and heal aren't needed but they have saved groups on a hard boss. Get rid of 2nd wind? Lancer has an ability that heals them while they attack. Just about every class in the game has a form or heal. Get rid of them all? As I said before. It is for soloability of the class so people don't have to group except in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Sadebreth

A healer will ALWAYS be needed. That is the point. You can't do dungeons without a healer. The tanks that can heal themselves through a boss, which I believe is only warrior and paladin, needs to be looked at

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Which is it, are healers needed, or can at least 50% of the tanks do the job without one? Both can't be true. If you want to argue that healers *should* be needed, then we agree. However, needed to do what? Because as it stands, even without a warrior or paladin - the amount of actual healing a healer needs to do in any half-decent group is basically 0. Being useful only when people are terrible is not a great way to justify a role's existence.

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... dungeons are where healers are really needed. Without healers the game might as well not have any dungeons and just let everyone zerg the things.

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We're already at "zerg all the things" mode for several expansions now. Wall to wall pulls are the norm, not the exception and outside of a DRK, already don't really provide much issues in terms difficulty. We've reached a point where the requirement for a healer in DF is arbitrary and forced by the queue, rather than any actual gameplay benefit from having one.

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The only dungeons that everyone farms that I know of are pre-made groups where you can cheese it by going in over the level of the dungeon.

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Only for previous expansions - I personally have farmed current (then EW) dungeons for glams, among other reasons such as rare pets. You are always stuck at that dungeon's level upon entry.

No, I want to keep all of that. I just want more buttons to press.
If the DPS can heal itself from a nick of avoidable or unavoidable damage and I just get to keep DPSing, I'd like more interesting DPS.
If the WAR doesn't need as much healing, whether it's a slight change or none at all, that means I'll have more time to DPS. So I'd like it to be more fun. I do not want more damage to heal. I do not want to take away the ability for others to heal or res.

In fact, with res specifically, I think it's embarrassing that SMN gets it early, RDM arbitrarily later as part of their kit, and BLM never. It's confusing for non casters. I've seen RDM and BLM get yelled at for not rezzing when one didn't have it yet and the other simply can't.

And SMN Physick is straight up embarrassing.

I actually wish support existed way more in this game outside the minor stuff DNC and BRD get to do. It's sad.

So no, I don't want to remove the ability to heal from other jobs. But if they're going to consistently get that ability, I'd really like a little more DPS flexibility and I'm not sure why that's an issue in any world, especially if it's optional. I'm not asking for Required, Harder healer rotations. But Energy Drain spam isn't doing much for me on SCH. It's the closest I've got to interesting decision making and it feels like the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Oh yes, they are. Pick your way through the strike thread. I dared to mention recently that I actually find I need to heal in DF dungeons, and the first response "liked" by almost 20 people was just trying to insult and belittle me by saying I must be a bad healer (which doesn't even make any sense given the context of the echo chamber's own arguments...). It's very revealing the kind of toxic people are pushing the strike, and if you're someone who likes healing and is willing to speak up about it, you definitely see the cabal ganging up on people.

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They just want an echo chamber in that thread and they want to turn this thread into one aswell, its the same few people who gang up and quote people trying to make them feel stupid by belittling them into feeling the class they are playing is dumb and stupid just because they are bored.

Seriously these people need to do 1 of 2 things and get off this forum because it's getting abit out of hand with the attitude they are giving off:

1. Change job and realize healing is not for you anymore in this game, you are bored and you need to move on.

2. Play a new game, just unsubb hit SE where it hurts with your protest, because at the moment you are not helping yourselves or the jobs look good at all.

And for the love of god stop giving new healers crap about not being as good as you, do you know how bad that makes you look.

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Originally Posted by Sadebreth

A healer will ALWAYS be needed. That is the point. You can't do dungeons without a healer. The tanks that can heal themselves through a boss, which I believe is only warrior and paladin, needs to be looked at but dungeons are where healers are really needed. Without healers the game might as well not have any dungeons and just let everyone zerg the things. The only dungeons that everyone farms that I know of are pre-made groups where you can cheese it by going in over the level of the dungeon. Me and my daughter got the birds and wolves doing extremes by ourselves that way. If you go into a dungeon at level I have never seen a healer not be needed.

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There's a channel in the discord dedicated to clips of healerless clears of content. All tanks can do healerless runs at any level it seems, and it really isn't difficult. I think most people have never actually tried and just think it would be super difficult when in reality it's anything but.

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Originally Posted by TsubameMikage

Which is it, are healers needed, or can at least 50% of the tanks do the job without one? Both can't be true. If you want to argue that healers *should* be needed, then we agree. However, needed to do what? Because as it stands, even without a warrior or paladin - the amount of actual healing a healer needs to do in any half-decent group is basically 0. Being useful only when people are terrible is not a great way to justify a role's existence.



We're already at "zerg all the things" mode for several expansions now. Wall to wall pulls are the norm, not the exception and outside of a DRK, already don't really provide much issues in terms difficulty. We've reached a point where the requirement for a healer in DF is arbitrary and forced by the queue, rather than any actual gameplay benefit from having one.


Only for previous expansions - I personally have farmed current (then EW) dungeons for glams, among other reasons such as rare pets. You are always stuck at that dungeon's level upon entry.

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For this expansion you can be 10 levels above the level 90 dungeons if you need something out of them like a pet. Of course you can't do it at higher levels. A level 100 can't solo a level 100 extreme dungeon which is where most of the good stuff is.

I never said the tanks could solo ALL dungeons. I have only seen them do it at levels where they first get their heal which is very low level for a paladin. I don't know about warrior. The higher the level the more the heal lags behind in it's ability because the boss can take them down before they can get their next heal off at higher levels. Like I said. It needs to be looked at. Doesn't warrant a full on strike.

"It needs to be looked at." lol when

Why do I need to look good for anyone or accept being told that something isn't for me anymore? I'm very well aware I'm not who Square wants to take money from and it's also why I think unsubbing as protest is barely useful as well. I'm doing it over the eye strain the game causes me now but that's because it's a waste of money to play a game I can't enjoy and I think accessibility is an even bigger issue than boring gameplay design.

I'm not interested in being respectable to protect the comfort of people who are happy with how things are and I'm not interested in being told to go play other roles, jobs, or games that I already play. It is not the job of a protestor to protect the feelings of people who accept the status quo. I'm sorry your vibes get ruined by reading online forums. Maybe you should take a break from them too?

Healers are expected to DPS in this game and so I'm asking for more interesting DPS options. Healers have been given so much room to DPS under common conditions that do occur that I would like it to be more fun and interesting. That's it. That doesn't change other jobs. It does not have to alter the skill floor or ceiling, actually. You can make changes that make people fed up with healing happy and also change absolutely nothing for the rest of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

"It needs to be looked at." lol when

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Yes... if you can solo a dungeon boss, ANY dungeon boss, at level then yes it needs to be looked at. It is 2 classes out of 21. I would say that is pretty decent.

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Originally Posted by gllt

Why do I need to look good for anyone or accept being told that something isn't for me anymore? I'm very well aware I'm not who Square wants to take money from and it's also why I think unsubbing as protest is barely useful as well. I'm doing it over the eye strain the game causes me now but that's because it's a waste of money to play a game I can't enjoy and I think accessibility is an even bigger issue than boring gameplay design.

I'm not interested in being respectable to protect the comfort of people who are happy with how things are and I'm not interested in being told to go play other roles, jobs, or games that I already play. It is not the job of a protestor to protect the feelings of people who accept the status quo. I'm sorry your vibes get ruined by reading online forums. Maybe you should take a break from them too?

Healers are expected to DPS in this game and so I'm asking for more interesting DPS options. Healers have been given so much room to DPS under common conditions that do occur that I would like it to be more fun and interesting. That's it. That doesn't change other jobs. It does not have to alter the skill floor or ceiling, actually. You can make changes that make people fed up with healing happy and also change absolutely nothing for the rest of the playerbase.

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Now you are just looking for a fight. I am done here. Have fun in whatever you do.

P.S. Healers have never been EXPECTED to dps except by toxic players that have come from other games. My daughter has gotten that also from some people recently trying to tell her how to play her class. Block them and move on. You are letting the toxicity get to you unless you are one of those toxic players, at which point, FIND ANOTHER GAME!!.