Lets stop fighting SE and work with them. What are your ideas?

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07-13-2017, 04:25 PM
YitharV2

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Pigzig

yeah, nah
fighting party for aggro can go die I have played that garbage in the old WoW days. I have an idea of fun and trying to keep some invisible number up high enough to avoid the mob running off is not part of my class fantasy. It can go wherever grindy mmos and no group finding tool MMOs go.
Even DPS that think "tanks should focus on tanking" don't actually want this as soon as they get rekt from pulling aggro and dying, not to mention waiting even longer for queues

holding aggro as a mechanic was always a bad design idea left over from grindy mmo days until blizzard got rid of it and if you ask me they still took way too long
even enmity combos are pushing it for me
put it in the trash

Eh, I personally liked it in TERA but holding aggro required optimizing DPS. None of this 1-2-3 enmity combo crap. To me it was a challenge. How much power and crit can I stack on my gear and not lose aggro. Criticals were really amazing for holding aggro since they would do 5x versus non-crit damage as a tank (it's even more now). The challenge was really three-fold. Holding aggro, maximizing DPS and completely mitigating damage. And keeping MP up. Them tryhard DPS OP.

It's pretty much the last thing I had fun doing in TERA after they killed competitive PvP.
07-13-2017, 05:28 PM
_Pigzig

Quote:

Originally Posted by YitharV2

snip

I don't mind "catching" adds that spawned or got pulled, tank swaps and the like. After the initial control of aggro is established though, I really don't think it should be something tanks should have to worry with, unless you are just sitting there not even pressing buttons. Aggro is a very meta mechanic, detached from the actual fantasy of fighting monsters. What is it about the emnity combo that makes a mob want to stay hitting me as opposed to the DPS combo where I am actually hurting it more?

The fact that a tank might have it "too easy" after gaining aggro/hate is not a problem in my eyes. lf a tank is just sitting there halfheartedly not doing much damage? Big deal. We all know DPS get carried every day in casual content, they don't even have to be alive to win. Half of them can't even limit break but heaven forbid tank jobs also be carryable. You still have to be alive to win which is more than I can say for those DPS at the bottom of Titan's pit.
07-13-2017, 06:43 PM
Reynhart

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Pigzig

After the initial control of aggro is established though, I really don't think it should be something tanks should have to worry with, unless you are just sitting there not even pressing buttons.

Personally, I'd like enmity to be more challenging than that. But, to make up for that, DPS should do a lot more damage. The idea would be that the DPS leeway would be tied to the ability of tanks to have a proper "enmity rotation".

EDITED for idea :
What they could also make is reward us for high aggro generation. I've thought of a debuff I've called "Off-gard". The idea would be that any party member below your enmity would have increased critical rate against your target, as if the monster was so focused on you that it forgot other members. And the effect would increase with the gap in enmity. It would also give a little push to freshly resurrected DPS.
07-13-2017, 06:55 PM
Duelle

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Pigzig

holding aggro as a mechanic was always a bad design idea left over from grindy mmo days until blizzard got rid of it and if you ask me they still took way too long

Blizzard never got rid of aggro holding. They just adjusted the numbers to weaken threat coefficients but increased damage dealt by skills. The result is tank players seeing bigger numbers but overall aggro generation staying relatively the same. In simple terms, your Devastates hit for bigger numbers but generate the same threat as when they dealt piddly damage.
07-13-2017, 07:25 PM
aleph_null

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Personally, I'd like enmity to be more challenging than that. But, to make up for that, DPS should do a lot more damage. The idea would be that the DPS leeway would be tied to the ability of tanks to have a proper "enmity rotation".

Personally I wouldn't like it if tank dps gets even more reduced relative to dps jobs. It's already a pain in pug groups when I play tanks and the dps don't perform well, but at least for now I can put on slaying accs and stay as much in dps stance as I can to make up a bit for it. That's probably the main reason why I like tanking with people that I know, but absolutely prefer playing as dps with pugs since it's easier to speed up runs or carry low dps groups.

Even during creator savage a skilled dps player would do 30-40% more dps than a skilled tank (looking at 95% percentile data on fflogs pre echo), I think that's far enough.
07-13-2017, 07:40 PM
Reynhart

Quote:

Originally Posted by aleph_null

It's already a pain in pug groups when I play tanks and the dps don't perform well

That's different. Maybe I should have phrased it differently, but I think DPS should have a much higher ceilling. If they don't perform well, they'll do low damage, ok. But, if they're really good, their damage (and enmity) could skyrocket, as long as the tank is able to keep the boss off them.
For me, it would feel very rewarding as a DPS to be able to go to medievial because my tank can secure enmity no matter what, and rewarding as a tank to see my DPS express its full potential thanks to me.

And fights wouldn't be scaled on that top ceilling. So, with realy good players, you'd see more and more skipping mechanics which is, in my opinion, a far better mentality to reward good players than hard DPS checks that punish bad ones.
07-13-2017, 07:45 PM
aleph_null

Yeah and I still think 30-40% more dps than tanks would be enough for dps jobs that have raid dps utilities. Maybe sam and blm can go above that, but if you lock current tanks in vit accs we'd do like half of equally skilled sam and that's too much for me. Idk about you but I wouldn't really feel rewarded for optimizing dps if I only do that little.
07-13-2017, 07:49 PM
FallenWings

I like the idea of making aggro potentially rewarding, but not in this fashion.

Because it's the whole concept of being a support again and all you've done is offload the tank's DPS onto the DPS. What will happen is that we have the problem of our contribution being reliant on others and this is especially not something that will be appreciated in pugs and DF. Both by the tanks who have bad DPS who don't utilize their efforts and by the DPS who aren't given their full potential because their tank is incompetent.

If I make the biggest aggro threshold but my glue sniffing DPS don't even get remotely close to it, it again is just wasted effort that didn't change anything in the fight, which is the whole issue of aggro as it is right now. It's an chore that needs to be done but being good at it doesn't offer anything back.

Using Balance on bad DPS will still net you bad DPS. 10% of shit is still shit.
07-13-2017, 07:59 PM
Reynhart

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenWings

What will happen is that we have the problem of our contribution being reliant on others and this is especially not something that will be appreciated in pugs and DF.

It shouldn't be a problem since we're supposed to be a team. Right now it really bugs me that DPS do their thing, we do ours, and there is basically no synergy between us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenWings

If I make the biggest aggro threshold but my glue sniffing DPS don't even get remotely close to it, it again is just wasted effort that didn't change anything in the fight, which is the whole issue of aggro as it is right now.

No, because if your DPS are way below your aggro, you can focus more on personal damage than keeping your threat level high. If they can't compete even when you're tanking in DPS stance, sure, throw that tank stance away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aleph_null

Idk about you but I wouldn't really feel rewarded for optimizing dps if I only do that little.

I don't feel rewarded by optimizing my personal DPS, I feel rewarded by optimizing the raid DPS. Right now, both are the same, but give me another way to do the latter, and I won't care about the fomer.
07-13-2017, 08:04 PM
_Pigzig

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duelle

Blizzard never got rid of aggro holding. They just adjusted the numbers to weaken threat coefficients but increased damage dealt by skills. The result is tank players seeing bigger numbers but overall aggro generation staying relatively the same. In simple terms, your Devastates hit for bigger numbers but generate the same threat as when they dealt piddly damage.

No, it was still boosted around Wrath of the Lich King. People used to require aggro mods for endgame raids and DPS had to hold off. You should've seen Warrior in Burning Crusade, they used to take gear off in outgeared content so that they would take more damage on purpose, that way they generated more rage from damage taken, allowing them to do more aggro. I distinctly remember at the pre-Wrath patch all tanks got a massive buff and you could just yolo instances after, because most of Burning Crusade dungeon challenge revolved around the trash mobs which were now easy to hold aggro on.

Watch some of this old vid and see how they behave around the trash mobs. Marking them and doing them one at a time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHsP5-t4_4c

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