Why can't the expansion be completely removed from the MSQ... we're not asking to get rid of the story...but continue telling stories...just allow those of who want to pick and choose when we want to do the various stories. Just like 3.4 if we didn't complete the coil raids it doesn't stop us from playing the story....so why can't it be the same for the expansion...I'm sure there will be enough NPC's to provide all the necessary back story of everything that happened since the beginning of ala mihgo existence.
Main Scenario Restriction Bloodstorm - Very Very Bad idea.
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10-20-2016, 05:52 AMAllistar
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10-20-2016, 05:53 AMDerio
Just enable new jobs through potd. That way new players can try out new jobs without actually obtaining them
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10-20-2016, 06:03 AMKosmos992kBecause the story is a central part of the game, the world, the lore and pretty much everything in the game; and also because it would create an even deeper chasm dividing the player base due to the disparity between those who know the game and those who only know the end-game - something that is not currently an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allistar
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10-20-2016, 06:04 AMChalbeeYou don't see anything wrong with wasting hours, days, weeks possibly of your time leveling a job just so you can unlock the one that you think looks most interesting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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10-20-2016, 06:06 AMKosmos992kWasting time is literally the point of playing games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalbee
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10-20-2016, 06:06 AMTerribadYou realize there's loads of people that have no clue what's going on story wise now right? No one cares lol. Not knowing the story doesn't prevent someone from clearing the dungeon or raid. There won't be any "deep chasm" lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
I think people that care about the lore just want to feel important. No MMO in existence ever had a huge rift between players that pay attention to lore and those that don't. -
10-20-2016, 06:11 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHNo, I don't. We're gamers, wasting time is sorta the default setting. XD More to the point, the HW jobs were clearly designed with the extra skills from their ARR counter parts in mind, so regardless, in order to actually play the respective jobs properly, unfortunately, you most certainly do need to play the appropriate jobs for the proper skill set. Don't forget you're also talking to someone that has all 60's, mind. X3Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalbee
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10-20-2016, 06:13 AMKosmos992kNote my words "it would create an even deeper chasm dividing the player base due to the disparity between those who know the game and those who only know the end-game". Playing through the story teaches you about the game, not just the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
Not sure how you come to the conclusion that there is no rift, this topic alone illustrates that there is a divide. Playing a game like FFXIV without participating in the story is like going to a fancy restaurant and ordering a lettuce and watercress salad - with no seasoning and distilled water. The atmosphere, table setting and waiting staff are wonderful, but you're missing out on the core of the experience by ignoring the work of the talented chefs in the kitchen. -
10-20-2016, 06:13 AMZojhaMore precisely: Wasting time in an enjoyable manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
Which is where the issue of subjectivity comes in. If all a game had to do was to waste time, well, there are some pretty infamous asian grinders to do just that. But that's scarcely enjoyable for most. -
10-20-2016, 06:15 AMReynhartPretty bold (no pun intended) claim you did here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
No, but not being able to clear the raid and thus not being able to learn that story was a pretty big complain for Coil, remember ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
Not being able to clear Steps Of Faith was also a big problem, even though, at that point, the only thing gated by it was...story. -
10-20-2016, 06:16 AMNiwashiOne of the big problems with gating jobs behind content is that it prevents the possibility of being able to do that content *with* those jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
That issue doesn't apply to locking content behind content, though. I see no downsides to locking dungeons, trials, etc behind MSQ progress, just as the game has always done. It's essential anytime those dungeons relate to the story (as most should if they're going to have a purpose for being here). And certainly the new sections of MSQ should be gated behind previous ones. Unlocking new regions without MSQ requirements prevents the initial travel to those regions from being used as part of the story, so while (depending on the story) it might not always be essential to gate travel access, it's certainly valid to do so.
It's really just the jobs that would benefit from not being as deeply gated as they were for Heavensward. I also think unlocking those earlier would help calm the torrent of complaints about the rest of the MSQ gating. A few might still grumble about not being able to do the top tier raid immediately with their brand new underleveled character, but I think most would be happy with being able to try out the new jobs while they continue progressing through the MSQ on their way towards the new expansion's main content. -
10-20-2016, 06:17 AMTerribadThere's currently no chasm to make even deeper.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
Playing through the story teaches you nothing. If it did, there wouldn't be so many awful terribads. I know a guy that's literally done about 80-85% of the quests in game, he's AWFUL. He doesn't use his cross class skills or even his job skills, I as a bard outdps him and he's a SMN, it shouldn't even be possible. Not to mention all the randos I meet that knows the story but won't use their soul crystals or flash. The MSQs teaches you nothing but lore about the game. Which, spoiler alert, a good chunk of people don't care about. MMO stories are boring and will never be as good a single player, let it be optional, it's not hurting you.
Who couldn't clear Steps Of Faith? Trash players? Which has nothing to do with them actually paying attention to the story? Same with coil? Reading a bunch of text isn't going to help someone clear a raid....Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
And no, that's not a big claim. I have not paid attention to this story at all, most of my FC skips the story. ALL of my last 3 FCs skipped the story. No one has ever turned them down for a party, ignored them, or even knew they skipped the story unless they said so. Why? Because you don't need to know the story to down a dungeon, so no one really cares.
Can't speak on XI, WoW's story was boring and completely optional. c:Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
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10-20-2016, 06:24 AMWelsper59XI's story and lore would like to have a word with you. WoW's entire lore background and following development would also like to call you out on that. Even SWTOR could rival some single player games with certain story arcs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
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10-20-2016, 06:28 AMKaitlanKela
Again, point = missed.
It's not about the story. Skip the cutscenes, who cares? It's about using the MSQ's content and instances to gradually ease people into gameplay and the complexities of their jobs and the game. You cannot just hand someone a level 60 character in a level 60-70 area and expect them to not be a burden on every single group their paired with for a long, long time. That's not fair to people who leveled up their jobs and by so doing learned how to play them properly and contribute to a group. Unless you think that The Aery or The Vault or Aetherochem is no more difficult conceptually than Sastasha then we can agree that putting people in endgame level dungeons that have no business playing at that level is a BAD idea. -
10-20-2016, 06:31 AMWelsper59What's an example of a good story for you? Are you looking at things exclusively from one story arc? WoW, for example, is hailed for wide array of story elements scattered across the game. If all you're looking at is one example, then you're not a good source for judgment on the matter. There's a very robust amount of lore in that games universe. Might not be for everyone, but your bold and non-subjective statements don't make you a good example of anything positive to say for the matter. Also, the optional bit was not at all what I was commenting on, so let's just leave that one on the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
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10-20-2016, 06:32 AMReynhartEnough people to justify a really quick nerf of just everything about that trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
You're seeing this backwards. Story won't help clear content, but clearing the content was required to see the story. And lots of people complained about not being able to see the story. Again, why do you think we have Alex Normal ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
So, a few dozen people you know don't care about the story ? Yeah, totally relevant, considering the playerbase is far above several hundred thousands. Besides, you might want to look at the definition of no one. You might be surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
And again,no onewe don't claim you need the story to clear a dungeon. Just that the story itself is a huge motivation for a lot of players...in case it wasn't clear the first three times, enough players so that the Dev team decided to make a story mode of Alex. And with that, the hardcore raiders even complained that they didn't have a story incentive to do Alex Savage, so that the Dev Team starts considering side-"what-if"-stories tied to it.
Yep, clearly, no one cares... -
10-20-2016, 06:36 AMTerribadIf you're talking about MMO wise, I seriously have yet to run across a MMO with good story. MMOs have way too much filler (which they have to have) for them to be considered "good" to me. I'm assuming it's the same for a good number of people as well. Hence why so many people just grind to max level. If I want a good amazing story, I'll play a single player RPG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
And no, let's not leave the optional bit on the side, because that's what a lot of us are asking for. To make the story OPTIONAL, if we want to grind to 60, let us. You just said you liked WoW's story and that story is optional, funny how it didn't effect your enjoyment of it at all.
So what you're saying is, they had to nerf Steps of Faith WHILE the MSQ is mandatory? That seems to be going WITH my point. The story doesn't teach you anything a crappy player will ALWAYS be crappy until they decide to learn their class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
What does that have to do with anything? A few people (cause I was there when the huge arguement happened) wanted to see what happened from 1.0 but didn't want to raid. What does that have to do with making MSQs optional? Um...nothing.Quote:
You're seeing this backwards. Story won't help clear content, but clearing the content was required to see the story. And lots of people complained about not being able to see the story. Again, why do you think we have Alex Normal ?
Are you slightly autistic or what? The point of that was I know loads of people who don't care about the story yet NO ONE has ever denied us to a party, kicked us from a party, or stopped us from doing anything because we didn't know the story. That is the point....Her point was that there's a divide, my point was that no one cares if you know the story or not because it doesn't stop you from completing a dungeon.Quote:
So, a few dozen people you know don't care about the story ? Yeah, totally relevant, considering the playerbase is far above several hundred thousands. Besides, you might want to look at the definition of no one. You might be surprised.
When you're all said and done, making the MSQ optional does not effect you in any way. If someone wants to grind to 60, let them. If someone wants to smash their face against a chocobo's butt to level 60...let them. It's not bothering you, the story option is still there for you to enjoy. Like how the chick above enjoyed WoW's story just fine while I skipped it just fine. -
10-20-2016, 06:43 AMChalbeeNot buying it one bit. I personally don't like to waste my time. I like to use my time to accomplish goals which I set for myself. Generally speaking, leveling a job I don't like is not among those goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
My point is that in the current system, someone who wants to play Astro has to do something else first, whereas someone who wants to play Conjurer/White Mage does not. On another note, you could go from 1-50 as a tank and then be an Astrologian, so your "you need to do the other classes first" argument doesn't hold water. Gating them behind the MSQ neither ensures that you'll have appropriate cross-class skills or that you'll be familiar with the role.
Also, I have no idea how that last sentence is relevant to anything. Congratulations I guess? -
10-20-2016, 06:45 AMNaunetThis is a GAME - you realize that, yes? "Do whatever it takes" - at no point should it be so un-fun to access something as basic as a job or a dungeon or a zone (that you have PAID FOR) that a player considers quitting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Stop excusing crappy design.
No. The point of playing games is to have fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
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10-20-2016, 06:47 AMChalbeePretty sure having fun is literally the point of playing games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
play, verb to engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose -
10-20-2016, 06:48 AMKaitlanKelaQuote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
This is what I have a problem with.
How exactly does smashing their face against a chocobo's butt help them become good at their job? It doesn't. And before you take me too literally, what does fategriding to 60 do for them? Nothing. You could be spamming a single skill and clear fates, especially in a group. So when they get to sixty or seventy and want to suddenly do what? Raid? LOL Their DPS is in the floor and they have no idea how to work with a team. GL finding a group.
The MSQ and the Job questlines organically increase the difficulty of content and introduce new skills to you incrementally so you have time to efficiently learn how to play. Again, it's NOT ABOUT THE STORY, it's NOT ABOUT THE CUTSCENES. It's about using the MSQ as a vector for learning so that the community isn't TOTAL CRAP.
You say you skipped every cutscene. But you still played every instance. You still did every job quest and learned every skill in order. That's what we're concerned about. Not the dialogue. Quit missing the point. -
10-20-2016, 06:49 AMWelsper59I'm not really disagreeing with the idea of it being optional, as you pointed out. I'm also not saying I agree. In this game, story is mandatory. In WoW, story is (mostly) optional. In XI, story is mandatory. It works either way. The fact you folks take MSQ being mandatory so offensively is what makes the topic itself intriguing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
And yes, let's put the optional part on the side because that's not the criticism on your half that I engaged with. It's your ignorance on the matter of story being good or bad and the disregard for the fact that your opinions are not shared across the board of the player population. I mean, if my WoW story mention is what you feel as universally regarded as "boring", as you said, then it's kinda weird that so many people do like it.
Many people are, in fact, aware of what Final Fantasy is and what it likely entails before they even play XIV, regardless of MMORPG experience. Encountering story in a Final Fantasy game should go without question. Likewise, having it be a mandatory part of the process. It's Final Fantasy. It doesn't have to be mandatory, which is part of your comments. That's fine and absolutely should be put up for debate. Just don't include ignorant bold statements that don't matter to that topic, like the ones you did, as it hurts your actual opinions value when you do. -
10-20-2016, 06:49 AMBlood-AkiYes, it is really fun just having everything unlocked from the start, No work, no story, just get straight to the point, that is self is indeed crappy design, and i am confident in saying that if the game was caterd to mind sets like yours, this game would have died twice, and very quickly. Who likes stories is subjective. and certainly you thinking it's a "crappy design" is also very subjective. But this game is based on story, Deal with it. or go somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
Like how we have gill sellers because despite the fact gill is really easy to make in this game and it's not even NEEDED for progression, people still buy it, in large quantities because they do not like working for anything, No matter how easy it is, this includes taking some time to go through a story. -
10-20-2016, 06:50 AMrachcouture
As someone with three characters caught up to 3.4:
I don't have a problem with locking a continual story behind more of its predecessor. What I do have a problem with is locking out jobs, landmass and side content when there's no real excuse other than an arbitrarily imposed limitation.
If SQX insists on continuing down this path, the least they could do is significantly condense the tedium or remove it entirely. The amount of pointless back-and-forth questing in 2.0 is absurd; Heavensward was a step forward, but not without its missteps (Dravanian Forelands and Churning Mists, anyone?) -
10-20-2016, 06:50 AMRemusI have burdens right now with people leveling normally... As i said early I find it amusing when people think most people can play their job which is quite funny too be honest to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaitlanKela
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10-20-2016, 06:53 AMNaunetLol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood-Aki
Yes, it is GREAT fun to be able to play the class I want to play upon creating a character and not have to suffer through weeks and weeks of WASTING xp on a class I do NOT want to play just to access the class I do - and then, as a result, not have enough XP via quests to cap the class I want and be forced to do mindless grinding instead.
But please, point out where I have EVER asked to be ported to end-game immediately. I'll be waiting, because you won't be able to find it. -
10-20-2016, 06:54 AMKaitlanKelaHey, I had to carry two terrible DPS through Xelphatol today. Dungeon was stupid long. But lucky for me, that only happens occasionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
Now imagine it happening all the time. Because people "slammed their head against a chocobo's butt" to get to cap and they have no idea how to work most mechanics, their rotation, or what their role is within a group because they've never done an instanced dungeon or trial before.
Tell me how this is good for the community? -
10-20-2016, 06:58 AMTerribadOh wow, I'm surprised you can actually string words together and do something other than insult.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaitlanKela
Before I did dungeons on my tank, I practiced on fate grinding. I also practiced my healing with fate grinding. If someone wants to get better they will. What does reading quests do? Nothing. The job quests didn't get harder and aside from HM of dungeons, the difficulty level of dungeons didn't increase either. The content is faceroll easy, it doesn't help anyone improve.
Again, I know people that read every quests and still are crap. Also who said just because you fate grind means you can't do dungeons? Obviously with the request to make MSQs optional I'm asking for MSQ requirement for the dungeons to be removed to make this a normal MMO. And while I realize this game may be hard for someone of your skill level, it's not. Plenty of MMOs let people grind to max level and guess what? It's not full of bads, this game actually has the most horrible players I've ever seen.
And that's where I stopped reading, because that's all I'm asking for. Is simply for the story to be optional like how it is in every other MMO. Some people like grinding, some people like reading walls of texts and picking up soup for the villagers, some people like crafting. It's a MMO let people play how they want within reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
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10-20-2016, 06:58 AMWelsper59Lots of problems with your "fun" argument. Here's an extreme example, but isn't exactly farfetched for some people on these forums with some aspects of the game. If I paid for XIV to simply get the best gear for each job, but hate everything about combat/crafting/gathering and the fact I have to group with others to do it, is a sound argument for me to say that the game has a crappy design? It's un-fun to me to have to do anything at all that this game is centered around to get access to what I find "fun". I'd rather my character simply solve puzzles or be given fun games to play (like Tetris) to get the best gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
The "un-fun" argument terrible and is taken way too literally. There will always be parts of anything fun that someone will find to not be an enjoyable part of the process. -
10-20-2016, 07:03 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHYou could, yes. Good luck getting into groups without cleric stance, protect, swiftcast, etc, but I mean, sure, you could theoretically opt to play a hamstrung version of a class with nothing of the appropriate tools necessary to succeed, but congrats I guess? The point I was making still stands, namely that the jobs are designed to necessitate the appropriate cross class skills from the relevant ARR jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalbee
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10-20-2016, 07:04 AMBlood-AkiYou must be new to this game, or any RPG for that matter, if you had no fun with any of the 1st, basic jobs then you obviously did not enjoy this game to begin with, but it's almost a moot point because this game follows a trinity system, tank/healer/dps, are you saying only a specific one of those classes are the only ones you would "enjoy"? to the point you don't want to ever touch any others but the exact extra jobs, that start at level 30 only?Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
Never said you did, May want to try reading the post again, instead of just quoting and trying very poorly i might add to look as smug as possible. Did you mistake "having all jobs at start" from "endgame"?Quote:
But please, point out where I have EVER asked to be ported to end-game immediately. I'll be waiting, because you won't be able to find it.
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10-20-2016, 07:07 AMKaitlanKelaWow, I'm surprised you can do something other than straw man my point. Oh wait. There you go with the Cutscene argument again...Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
It has nothing to do with cutscenes. It has to do with naturally introducing skills alongside the appropriate level of content that helps people practically apply them.
And while I agree that dungeons are easy compared to other content, most of the player base is casual and runs dungeons more than trials and raids and other kinds of content. And yet so many people STILL can't do it. Do you think that eliminating mandatory dungeon content will help or hurt? Honestly. And you still equated Sastasha with the Vault to make your point? A bit of a stretch, don't you think? Are you really being truthful with your argumentation?
So you're a special snowflake who don't need no MSQ instances to be good. Well, again, look at the population of the game that isn't you. Hard for you I imagine. As I have said here and other places, there are plenty of people in the community who can't play their jobs well regardless of having instances gradually teach them. Is eliminating that system going to make it better or worse? -
10-20-2016, 07:10 AMSendohJinBecause the story is how you get access to many areas. Ishgard doesn't allow random people to go in. Churning Mists and Azys Lla didn't have adventurers for hundreds??? of years. Ala Mhigo is blocked to anyone that's not affiliated with the Garleans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allistar
they link them to tell one cohesive story. jobs should not be locked by the MSQ but certain zones should be. -
10-20-2016, 07:13 AMWelsper59And that's exactly why people have a problem with you, and those like you. You ignore everything being stated because you seem to think it has to only be that one way. It doesn't have to be the way you want it to, as I pointed out despite you electing to stop reading. You say "within reason", but how exactly is it not within reason to expect people to clear MSQ? Currently, people don't seem to have a problem doing it. It's clearly a design choice the devs themselves want and is honestly "within reason". They learned their lesson about the jobs thing from HW, so a big valid criticism of being unreasonable has been taken care of as far as we know. Once our Squadrons are able to be taken into dungeons, I'm pretty sure this becomes even more of a streamlined process. Again, a clearly harmless design choice of devs wanting players to see the story (whether you want to or not, and most don't mind it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Terribad
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10-20-2016, 07:19 AMAmetrine
I'm curious if the skill retooling for 4.0 is partly intended to ease the grind since it sounds as if cross-classing is being abolished in favor of a secondary, role based move pool to cherry pick skills from.
Say what you will, but I'd have no issue with chucking that and the second class job requirements. I put of leveling BLM for an embarrassing amount of time based sole of my revulsion and discomfort how Archer feels. But Quelling Strikes! UGH!! -
10-20-2016, 07:19 AMMilesSaintboroguh
So, can we expect this thread to be bumped when 4.0 comes close?
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10-20-2016, 07:21 AMNeophyteQuote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
But why does people who don't care about the story (or as I said quite often now: Someone like me who cares, but wants to have a 2nd or 3rd character in end-game content) even bother you?
As Terribad explained: Doing all the MSQ isn't doing anything good or worse to the overall player skill. There are some who care about getting good, and some who don't. That has nothing to do with doing MSQ.
Yes, MSQ is a slow way to learn every bit of the game in a set pace... but what, if someone doesn't want to, but wants to learn the ins and outs of the battle content with PotD or with friends in current content? As if they care that the first 20 runs with their friend are kinda rough. All I see is that you want to prevent them from that.
Maybe a girl-/boyfriend who enjoyed the story together with you and then decides to make an own account and enjoy the further story together with 2 characters? Too bad, you're only entiteld to leave base game after 280+ quests.
If people still have a sprout for 168h and get encouraged to learn their class there is no problem. This encouragment to actually learn a bit about your class has to be created anyway. They could also create something like an alternate 10h long MSQ (you can already be level 50) which leads people into the game mechanics and "what has happened". Make it cost ~20€ like a DCL for a normal game to justify those extra works for that, pff..
And also: If FF is that story-centered and there are mostly people joining this game and staying subbed for the story... what exactly do you fear?! There will only be a small percentage (mostly players who already did it or really wants to do the things which i named above) who actually buys it. So... if you're right, why should anyone even jump into this game and actually want such things? And if you're wrong, well, then you're wrong. ;)
Every € from a no-story-player can be invested in creating more and better story for me and you. So why not?
I ask again... why do you even care? Can you please make a [*list][*/list]with every aspect affecting you (or me or any other player you currently know) in a negative way, if there were.. let's say.. 5% of the player base in end game, which actually have skipped the ARR MSQ? Aspects which can be unambigious referred to those x% (overall player skill is not such a thing, as you have said by yourself and which got elaborated quite often now).
Oh, also another question: Why do you think the raid stories and the triad one are actually optional? Why did we not had to complete coil to enter HW? -
10-20-2016, 07:22 AMEimian_EdaQuote:
Originally Posted by Blood-Aki
lol What? I have no bone in this fight, but unless I am misunderstanding this comment...
There are masses of players who wait until certain classes come out before they play, as the launch choices don't peak their interest (who then go on to enjoy their game experience with the class they want). -
10-20-2016, 07:23 AMChalbeeYour point absolutely does not stand. Your argument is essentially "These jobs should be gated as late-game to make sure people have the appropriate off-class skills" but you're ignoring the fact that a) there are other jobs that need off class skills to play properly and those jobs are not gated and b) you can level to 50 as an entirely different role, and still unlock the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Further, whether or not there is an MSQ barrier is immaterial to whether or not you get optional skills. The game only requires you be level 50 and reach a certain MSQ milestone. Conjurer and Arcanist, meanwhile, are accessible from level 1, but White Mage and Scholar still need Swiftcast to function properly. In other words, gating does nothing to force you to get the proper off-class skills. What you described (groups not accepting you), however, does encourage one to get the proper off-class skills, and can be done at any point in the game regardless of story progression.
There is no legitimate argument for jobs being gated behind the MSQ. -
10-20-2016, 07:35 AMAmetrineOf course not. 5 new ones will be made instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh