Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

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Originally Posted by Stonie

and oh ya since i'm only lv 48 this number is just going to get bigger btw.

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So does Titan's.

All of your information is irrelevant because you are not level 50. It doesn't even matter if Warriors are OP or UP, you aren't level 50. You are still missing tools, you are still missing the large gear upgrade that darksteel/darklight is and most importantly, you haven't tanked Titan or Bahamut's Coil

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Originally Posted by Stonie

and what is the block rate exactly by percentage? cuz parry does about the same for me, which i know pld do too but. unless you are blocking like 50% of the time it seems rather negligible to me. hell even with 50% block rate that doesn't garentee anything, meanwhile you have less hp and no self heals to help. and i mean block without the buffs that run on a CD, which leaves you with shield oath which drops dps, at least deifiance has means to get that % of dam back which is needed for leeching. and oh ya 3 minute cool downs on most the moves that bring up your defence and block rate how is that very useful again?

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judging from this post, you have no clue at all about what we were discussing about.

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Originally Posted by Illya

I tried to tank Titan HM as WAR today. I really did. I went in with Garuda's Scream, the AF+1 chest, and everything else DL except helmet. Mountain Buster was dropping 4.5k damage on me straight up and I have about 6.9k HP. How a healer is supposed to heal me through that with Cure II that does 1.3k healing on me is a mystery which no one has been able to solve.
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6.9k, if my math isn't wrong, the WHM in the party should be rotating stoneskin on you whenever it wears off, stoneskin with that much HP and the 18% dmg mitigation offered from their trait grants you with a 1242 barrier, which in turns allows them to take that time to heal you without worries of your HP going down. With SCH in the area they can help mitigate dmg by 10% if needed as well as use aldoquim to add another dmg barrier to you.

The trick with warrior most likely are healers making more use out of their dmg mitigation abiltiies to allow warrior more time to heal themselves through their abilities. Also as a warrior they most likely want to always keep an eye on infuriate(one that grants 5 charges) when they alrdy have 5 charges or are close to it, pop the berserk and any other dmg increasing skills, use "Inner beast" pop infruiate, Use "Inner Beast" against and you'll most likel recover a huge chunk of HP yourself with the help of a healer.

Then there is also thrill of battle, when that is up healers could use that as a chance to make a more potent stoneskin on you, plus there is also Convalescence, when getting hit with Mountain buster, pop that ability, if a monk is in party have them use mantra and bam more healing potency there.

Another ability I would say to keep in mind is the unchained one, save it for when you want to use bloodbath, maximize your dmg potential through your combos and there is another means of keeping your HP in check. I also think that Convalescence works with all of the warrior's HP regenerative abilities so that is another good time to use said ability.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

No, no. You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to be oblivious, get carried by your healers, then post about how good the PLD is in "anyones" hands, implying that you're god's gift to this game and we're all not worthy.

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Fixed it for you. If Paladins are making things so much easier, then its the Paladin that needs to brought down to the Warriors level, not the other way around. Could you imagine what will happen if Warriors get the same Damage reduction as Paladins but keep the HP and self heals? Paladins would become obsolete.

WARs are meant to make up for the damage they take with self-healing.. but Inner Beast is a terribly unreliable healing mechanic as long as it is relies solely on damage done (I don't consider the pitiful trickle of health from Bloodbath a reliable self-heal). One Inner Beast might heal you for anywhere from 1500-2000+ with Berserk up and a lucky crit, then the next for barely over 1000.. it's a too unreliable heal and simply does not come close to compensate for the damage we take from a boss like Titan during the Inner Beast ramp up time.. and the healers are expected to pick up the pieces. I think it would be fair to reduce Wrath stacks required for Inner Beast to 3, make the heal about 20% of the WAR's health pool, and bake the passive healing buff from Wrath stacks into Defiance.

Then there's the thing that PLDs seem to have the entitlement to a fckton more damage reduction cooldowns than WARs, which doesn't help the situation.

Not to mention the fact that having your only real source of "mitigation" on the 2.5 sec GCD is a huge problem. It's just way too slow and cumbersome compared to popping a cooldown. Trying to design a tank class with practically no defensive cooldowns was a gigantic mistake and a blatant display of poor MMORPG understanding. I have to wonder whose idea it was, and how this garbage made it through playtesting (if any).

Defiance should have have a selfheal component based on damage dealt.
Unchained should have a 40 sec cooldown.
Cyclone should have an enmity component.
Mercy Stroke should heal for 10 percent of health when used, 20 if it kills the enemy.

They need to introduce a new ability that heals you for x amount of the damage taken over the last x seconds. Don't know how long the cool down should be.

Here is a more accurately translated transcript of Yoshi talking about WAR at TGS. This was updated by the original translator some time after it took place.

y; Marauders and Warriors, we want some more
y; Earlier today, I was told by a player that Warriors are weaker than Paladins
y; They are harder to play
f; It’s more technical
y; You need to bring in a lot of the the additional (skills?) to get it fully out
y; But really, in development team, warrior are really strong, and it’s more stable
y; So right now it looks like Paladins can hold the enmity and tank, however
y; honestly Warriors are really strong.
y; Players haven’t researched enough so I would like players who are up for a challenge to stand up and play.
y; We the development team really recommend Warriors

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vWI/edit?pli=1

hmmm, when Yoshi says about "adittional", not sure if it is equipment or skills.

i think he means skills.

Convalescense/Mantra are great skills on a warrior with his large hp pool, featherfoot is nice to up the chance to evade hits when you are low or big hits are comming (chance of 100% migration) and haymaker is a nice tool to reduce dmg (if the boss can be slowed...)

But all are on long timers and very situational and mostly chance based, nothing compared to the flat dmg reduce cooldowns the palading gets.

Would be nice to add a regen effect to defiance maybe? 200 hp regen every 3 - 10 seconds?

should probably be a % of max HP though, maybe like 5 - 10%?

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Originally Posted by Yarem

and haymaker is a nice tool to reduce dmg (if the boss can be slowed...)

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Whoah, I knew about the other skills but totally forgot about Haymaker's slow. Maybe I should look into that. Main issue is that we only have 5 slots and I am hard pressed to figure out what to drop instead.

I guess a problem with it though is the fact that slow has DRs.

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Originally Posted by Xariann

You are not getting my point though.

First you say use crit to buff Inner Beast. Which is what I thought you wanted Crit for, and I understand that.

Then you say, "Don't ever use Inner Beast until absolutely necessary."

That means that you are stacking crit to have better Inner Beasts, but then you don't use it. So during the time where you are not using it, you are still not more effective defense wise than you were before you had crit, because whether you had crit or not, you still have that 15% healing buff.

So if you stack crit and then hold onto that skill that benefits from it (Inner Beast) then you are not better than you were before stacking crit. You only are those rare times where you use Inner Beast because you don't use it whenever you can.

What I am getting from you is:

1. If you don't have enough crit there is no point in using Inner Beast because you are actually losing out on your hp.

2. If you have enough crit, STILL don't use it until absolutely necessary, don't use it on each of Titan's big moves, but only when healers struggle with healing you after it. So when I DON'T use it after the big move, I will still have been worse than a Paladin who did mitigate that hit. Do you understand what I mean?

Plus I get it that you do more DPS with crit. I really get it. I don't care. I want to know that I have better defensive abilities. And if you read above, I don't see that extra defensive threshold if then you just don't use Inner Beast unless you are in dire need. I am not disputing that keeping the Wrath stacks is good. I am saying that stacking that crit isn't such a HUGE improvement DEFENSIVELY because you don't utilise the crit in a defensive manner often enough.

If the problem is surpassing that negative HPS threshold, then lots of crit should equal to lots of Inner Beast usage. Not to "Lots of crit, but STILL don't use Inner Beast" which is what threw me off in your replies. If the extra crit doesn't make you want to use Inner Beast more often, then no point in stacking it if you are after a better way to stay alive. You might as well stack strenght and keep your Inner Beast for emergency as you are doing already.

Also the maths on that thread don't take into consideration your normal crit, with use of Inner Release throughout the Chimera encounter, it's 15%ish for me without any crit stacking gear wise.

Someone also showed me some numbers from a reddit thread. He said,

"Taking an example of a Bard in full Darklight gear with Relic weapon, they received these results:

1 Determination/Crit rate = 0.033% damage increase
1 Dexterity = 0.2% damage increase
1 Weapon damage = 1.55% damage increase

As we can see, WD is beyond the best increase, so getting a +1 on your weapon is worth about 8 primary stats (str/dex/vit/int/mnd) and one primary stat is worth about 6 secondary stats.

A single WD is worth almost 50 secondary stats, so yes, it's really worth upgrading from Relic to Relic +1.

But also, apparently the WD scales off your primary stats, so the higher your primary stat is, the less damage increase you will get from WD. At the current level of this game, this is a non-issue, but it might pose a problem in the future when max level is perhaps 70+."

If those numbers are true and if strength contributes the same amount of damage to a melee than dex does to a ranged, then you wouldn't care about crit because:

1. You actually do less damage than with stacking strength
2. You need a lot more points in crit to get the same amount of damage increase as strength, therefore needing a lot more materia slots, and you only have a finite number of those so your damage caps a lot earlier than it does with strength
3. If by stacking Strength, your Inner Beasts are consistently better, even if they don't crit as often, the overall HPS might still increase and surpass the negative threshold because strength means more damage than crit overall

On top of that you don't know:

1. How much strength the person who posted your "eye opening thread" has
2. How he gets 2.0 skill speed
3. Can you, by stacking crit, surpass the HPS of him using 2.0 skill speed? Because of course, if you are stacking skill speed, you are out of Materia slots for crit

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Thank you for your Detailed Reply.

For a better explanation let's look at what a Critical Hit actually is.



When you hit a Critical you'll see it say Critical! You hit Xmob for XXX damage (50%).

A critical hit is 50% more than a normal hit. Now, As a WAR, your mitigation depends highly on how much damage you deal. So you say you don't care, you'd better care. Inner Beast, Bloodbath, and even the cross class Second Wind are actually offensive skills because they scale with attack power and your ability to do damage.

The more damage you do, the more damage you can take. It's that simple.

When I first started stacking Critical Rate Materia, the goal was to increase the amount of times I used Critical Inner Beast to a level where I was comfortable using it. The result was a host more benefits that actually allowed me to use Inner Beast less.

For example. Before I started stacking Crit, when I was pulling multiple monsters, I would single target DPS one monster because I wanted to kill it faster as well as use Inner Beast to mitigate all the damage I was taking. There so no way I could use Bloodbath effectively because Bloodbath was ineffective in handling all the damage I was taking to any meaningfull extent. Why? Because my damage was so low.

After I raised my Crit Rate Considerably, I suddenly realized that using Vengeance and Bloodbath allong with Steel Cyclone healed me more than an Inner beast could while at the same time, dealing AoE damage and killing the enemies faster. It was a win win.

But I wasn't using Inner Beast. In this case, Steel Cyclone had more benefits.

So there are cases where Inner Beast will not be your heal of choice.

In the case of Titan, you still want to stack Crit so that when you use your Vengeance and Bloodbath Combo, you can gain more HP after Rock Busters and Stomps. And when you use Inner Beast you have a greater chance of Crit. But when you get Mountain Bustered in the face, and your Healer is distracted/out of commission you need more than a "chance" of crit. You need a Guaranteed Crit.

That's what takes me to Berserk, Berserk is raising your attack power 50%, Berserk is a guaranteed Critical hit. You want to use Berserk when you use Inner Beast in this case because if you do, you get enough Healing to over come the threshold of negative HP healed Guaranteed.. And if you crit that you get 50 percent more than that.

But again, this is when you're in a pinch or a bind. You dont' do this for every Mountain Buster. If you're not in a serious need of healing (such as the death/gaoling of your mages) your 15% heal buff will always be better ALWAYS. It took me a while to get this too. But you'll get it really quickly when you see how much Wrath V actually increase your HP regen and decreases the strain on your healers. You'll really get it more when you see how much Wrath V actually increases your damage dealt, which increases your HP regained from Bloodbath.

Do you understand why Wrath V is such a powerful mitigation and DPS tool?

What stacking Critical hit does, besides raising your DPS to crazy levels, you start unlocking the strength of the cooldowns you rarely, barely, and never-ly used before this allowing to regen more HP and closes that gap between PLD and WAR when it comes to EHP.

Regarding STR: You cannot "stack STR" in this game. STR is capped according to item level. I quite literally can add no more strength to my gear.

I've noticed that even the expert Websites are underestimating the gains to Crit Rate granted by abilities like Internal Release when they are used in connection with Wrath V. On the Psychflayer yesterday, I managed to achieve a sustained 33.3 Crit Rate, that fight is not a short one.

According to people's calculations I should have only been able to achieve 22.something percent before dropping off again to a 12.something percent.

There has got to be something else happening. I'm not sure what it is. But my DPS has gone up by 40 since I stacked Crit. And a good portion of that gets translated into mitigation.

One more EDIT: When you use Crit Rate you really increase your damage dealt far more than with STR on WAR. (It doesn't work that way on other classes.)

In response of "you can't have a decent DPS without str and crit stacking" :

http://puu.sh/4AAry.png
http://puu.sh/4ABUQ.png

http://puu.sh/4AAGX.png
http://puu.sh/4ABXQ.png

http://puu.sh/4ABVI.png
http://puu.sh/4AB04.png

(DPS is the 5th one)

This is done with a Bravura (not +1), head/chest and legs/feet DL, AF2 gloves and white HQ TANK acc (the amber ones, one of them is a tank DL tho) so, no DPS gear at all. And I don't have Internal Release yet (the laziness is strong in this one)

I wanted to get bravura +1, AF2 gear and HQ ilvl 70 DPS acc which would probably be a really good balance but come one. On my server, with a friendly price, just to get those acc would cost me 350k gils and 11250 tomestone. I don't think the difference is in my favor unless I meld at least 2x crit and 1x vit on them.
This is an INSANE amount of gils.
Tomestone's crafting item cost between 25 and 30k on my serv atm. Assuming I'm extremely lucky with the forbidden melding, that would cost me over 3M just to get those acc and to meld them. Since I'm not lucky at all, probably closer to 4M.

Would it be better ? Absolutely. Would it make me a viable option for the later Coil turn compared to a PLD that just grabed DL acc ? I really don't think so.
And even if it would, when every class can just farm an entire DL gear in a week and be totaly viable and efficient, how can anyone say that there is no problem with WAR if we need to throw 4M gils and over 3 month of farming for our AF2 and bravura +1 when a PLD can be coil ready under week after its creation ?

http://i.imgur.com/maVhYB1.png?1

My counter
This is with my usual Crit Set up which includes a mix of blue and White and Green. (The crafted items) and one of my rings (Ring of Lasting Shelter) gives no STR at all.

I also only have 20 STR allocated, not 30.

So no, I do not stack STR. You have to be balanced.

(On my server, Tomestone Crafted items cost about 97k currently. But hey, if you want Better gear, you'll spend the gil for it, but good job on making due with what you have.)

Well, our numbers are pretty close with me not having any DPS acc or anything and no internal release.
So, yes, OFC, having HQ DPS acc would boost my damage and, by extention, my self heal. But The gap isn't that huge, it makes me less durable outside of IB which can't be use whenever I want and most all of, it doesnt cost me a kidney.
I'll definitly grab some dps DL acc once I'm done with AF2, but I refuse to have to spend millions and millions and millions to be, maybe (probably not), on par with the other tank job, that can just grab free gear farmed under a week.
We need some buff. Yes, I do believe we aren't as trash as some people say, but no, WAR is not fine.

And if by showing off, YoshiP mean "show you ability to mindlessly farm for ages and forget you have a life to be able to buy those items that will make you as good as a PLD" then I really don't get it.

Kaalan and Hiirnoivl, thank you for the raw data.

The point is all you need to do is look at the AF stats to see where everyone is going wrong.

PARRY is your damage mitigation. it can be over 20% mitigation sometimes. DEX and PAR affect the RATE at which you parry - you will see this happening in the damage popup.

Str influences the PERCENT you mitigate WHEN you parry. it follows a 40/41/40 trend. The STR tier thresholds for parrying are 243, 283, 324, 364 and 405. The next ones after gear would be 445 and 486. There's a potential 16% damage threshold, and you need DEX and parry rate to parry often. This makes us even with or better then PLD , when you add foresight (which is why it's so low as a total mitigation). Because everyone is focused on damage mitigation from WAR, you're literally gimping yourself - when adding more STR both increases your DPS and increases your parry mitigation ammount.

for War, 405 is the sweet spot for STR you should be going for to balance your total HP and mitigation (15%). You parry roughly 20% of the time. This may be improved later on - I have to do more theory crafting. There's NO DIFFERENCE between the parry mitigation from 364 to 405. If you can't get your STR to 405, DON'T go above 364, and put the rest in VIT>DEX

Again, rate of parry is influenced by Dexterity and Parry Rate (direct stat). This needs to be explored. If you look at the AF, you will notice a lot of parry. The good axes have lots of parry. Parry is VERY important for war, as is str. Adding Parry to a PLD may actually hurt their endgame damage mitigation because it's less then shield block, which happens more frequently, and you don't want to offset that.

I conclude that if you make sure your parry rate is consistent, your HP with defiance is well over 5000 and you balance your self healing abilities, war has the potential to be better then PLD for everything BUT DIRECT DAMAGE FROM SPELLS.

Ever notice how Brutal swing can stun physical boss abilities but shield bash can't? Shield bash is great for blocking SPELLS... hummm.... Think about it.

TL;DR: Warrior is a tank for physical attacking enemies. Paladin is a tank for magical attacking enemies. They both can do both - but it's harder to tank the "non ideal" mob type.

Yoshi's words did not help anything that's for sure. He said the WAR is strong but gave people 0 reason to prefer it over PLD. And what's worse, people are so prejudiced against the class that they don't even bother researching any more. They just "lolWAR, PLD plz" and leave it at that. So maybe WAR is strong, but no one is interested in "research" people aren't interested in "attempts" or "experimenting with builds" when it seems that there is no point to it.

"Why don't you just play PLD?" is a question I'm getting a lot. They can see that I'm a good player so, "Why not stop lugging that axe around and strap on a sword so I can invite you?"

The truth is I feel very vulnerable as a PLD. My HP only goes in one direction. I can only hope to avoid damage before it happens and if I get hit, even if it's for less damage than a WAR, I can do nothing about it. If a DPS dies it's a wipe, if a healer is occupied I have to use all my cool downs or Hallow Ground to avoid damage.

I find PLD unforgiving, the fights take forever, unless the DPS are good and skilled. Yeah it gives people room to be terrible at their jobs. I can see why no one wants to play with a WAR that sucks. I don't see why anyone would pick a PLD over a WAR that can actually contribute to the fight. That's what I don't get. I can WAR tank perfectly fine but people think that I'll be suddenly UBER if I had a shield.

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Originally Posted by TheWitcher

even WHM is much better than Scholar

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Thats definitely not true. The whm is better for aoe the sch is better for tank healing as well as dmg reductions.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

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Someone doesn't know how statistics work.

How many attacks do you think you get off in an average boss fight? in a 10min fight with 2.5s GCD you can get a maximum of 240 attacks. margin of error:20% means 200 attacks. Considering he said average crit rate i'm assuming he's collected a couple thousand data points. meaning i wouldn't expect him to be more than .5% off. meaning his crit rate is roughly 25%. Looking at the data he provides later, he has an 'average low' of about 17% and an 'average high' of about 32%. averaging those two gives 24.5%. nice to see someone who doesn't pull data out of their ass for once. Margin of error, his crit rate is 24-25%. Given real data is more likely to be on the lower side than the higher side due to human error and other facts (such as missing attacks), i'm going with 25%.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

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I wouldn't agree that crit rate > STR/det for overall damage. there is absolutely no question whatsoever, that your main stat for damage will increase your average damage way more than crit rate will.

However War's mitigation doesn't come from sustained damage. it comes from burst. given we can control these bursts somewhat, (Berserk, internal release, bloodbath, infuriate) I can buy that crit may be better for mitigation than raw str. However it's just plain false that crit > str for damage. The other war supplying data out damages you on average. but this is could be his DDs are not as good as yours. the mobs only have so much HP.

For short bursts, crit is theoretically better. War mitigates by healing in bursts. So I'll buy that crit may be better for mitigation than STR, provided you can figure out a way to consistently crit when you need to (Bloodbath is up, when you IB)

Also, Steel cyclone has ALWAYS been good. it's just not OP as F--- like it was in 1.0. 2xSC=>2x overpower is my standard opener for trash/herds of mobs. I don't worry about mitigation here as much as holding threat. The only ability in WAR's kit that is 100% utter trash is holmgang. Even unchained can be situationally used to good effect. BB, zerk, veng, unchained, infuriate, overpower spam is great for pulls of 6+ mobs. holmgang, I just...I have no idea when that ability is useful.

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Originally Posted by Shyle

Right now, I'm stacking in all Vit (with the assumption that EhP>self healing), is it more viable to have maybe 50/50 in str/vit due to our skills relying on our dmg as well? Or favor Str even more than vit like you have?

So far, in my runs, I haven't had any issues (nor my healers) with keeping me up or with aggro (I'm only up to Garuda HM though, first kill last night and I screwed myself out of the axe, but that's a different story).

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Hiir found something that works for him. you need to find what works for you. It's not just about individual performance, its what the people you are with are comfortable with.

I help run an end-game FC. that being said, we have a lot of new players who don't know their stuff yet. so we need to train them. if I carry too hard as tank, they dont' learn. so I go for VIT over STR on paper STR looks so much better than VIT. but in reality, that extra ~450HP is the 1 or 2 seconds you need to get healed. Can't count the number of times i barely survive a buffed Triumverate on hydra. That alone is enough for me to say VIT>STR. but later on when everyone is on the ball, STR may be better than VIT.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I also only have 20 STR allocated, not 30.

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Right now, I'm stacking in all Vit (with the assumption that EhP>self healing), is it more viable to have maybe 50/50 in str/vit due to our skills relying on our dmg as well? Or favor Str even more than vit like you have?

So far, in my runs, I haven't had any issues (nor my healers) with keeping me up or with aggro (I'm only up to Garuda HM though, first kill last night and I screwed myself out of the axe, but that's a different story).

Holmgang is theoretically useful.
A monster can't attack you if it isn't facing you, and Holmgang ALSO prevents it from turning. So for things such as Titan when he turns to try to AoE the party, hitting Holmgang could delay his Mountain Buster by a good six seconds, enough time for the healer to get the situation under control.
Would him trying to turn also delay Tumult? I doubt but it might.

And other enemies whose facing is important too, maybe intelligent usage of Holmgang can be useful?

Onisake,

STR is primary on DPS classes. Adding STR increases DPS more than Crit does on those other classes. WAR is different, Not with the Crit Rate percentage buff which appears to result in a 20 fold crit rate increase instead of a 10 fold increase. I wonder if it's working as intended.

I can see no reason why I can hold a 30% Crit Rate on a boss when I shouldn't even hit that high ever in the fight ever. And when you're talking about dealing 50% more damage every 1 in 3 hits, that's a pretty substantial increase.

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Originally Posted by Shyle

Right now, I'm stacking in all Vit (with the assumption that EhP>self healing), is it more viable to have maybe 50/50 in str/vit due to our skills relying on our dmg as well? Or favor Str even more than vit like you have?

So far, in my runs, I haven't had any issues (nor my healers) with keeping me up or with aggro (I'm only up to Garuda HM though, first kill last night and I screwed myself out of the axe, but that's a different story).

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I encourage people to be balanced. I don't think the scale should tip too far in either direction.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

For short bursts, crit is theoretically better. War mitigates by healing in bursts. So I'll buy that crit may be better for mitigation than STR, provided you can figure out a way to consistently crit when you need to (Bloodbath is up, when you IB)

Also, Steel cyclone has ALWAYS been good. it's just not OP as F--- like it was in 1.0. 2xSC=>2x overpower is my standard opener for trash/herds of mobs. I don't worry about mitigation here as much as holding threat. The only ability in WAR's kit that is 100% utter trash is holmgang. Even unchained can be situationally used to good effect. BB, zerk, veng, unchained, infuriate, overpower spam is great for pulls of 6+ mobs. holmgang, I just...I have no idea when that ability is useful.

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LOL That's I think one of the kinder responses since I joined this discussion. I have no issues holding hate from my fellow FFXIV'ers. :)

If you want a Guaranteed Crit look no further than Berserk. Like I posted earlier, that's what Berserk IS. Every hit you deal is +50% damage which is essentially a Crit. So if you want burst healing there you go. Plus you can crit on top of that.

Holmgang is sometimes mitigation. Sometimes not. When a primal turns around (Like with Friction or Landslide or Weight of the Land) You can freeze them in place. they can't turn around to hit you more.

Also, when you use Holmgang on Demon Wall, you cannot be thrown by Repel and can continue dealing damage.

I've actually killed Demon Wall this way, if your team dies after the adds and the Wall is creeping close to the muck, if you don't get repelled you can hold on just long enough to finish it off.

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Originally Posted by Stonie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSJV2519AxE
Two warriors here on Titan hard mode, one main tanking and one dpsing. am i missing something here?

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You didn't seem to notice that the majority of that group was rocking relics...including the tank.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

*snip*STR may be better than VIT, holmgang is useless*snip*

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Quick note on holmgang: Use it when bosses use moves that make them run to other players and ignore hate stack. Also, use it immediately when they turn to do a move on someone (the kind where they turn right back after), because it gives you a big block of time where he cant hit you, to heal yourself and take a breather. I sometimes stun, run behind him, and Holmgang. This increases the stun duration, essentially.

Partially. STR increases parry mitigation percent. High dex is important too, it increases parry rate, along with parry stat direct.

At 50, aim for the following stats. See my above posts for more information.

405 STR(363 if you can't gear to 405: Don't go over 363 in that case, put it in Vit instead. There's no difference between 363 and 404)
211 Dex. This is where the parry rate hits a minimum of 12% on dex alone, before the Parry stat is taken into account. This also helps crits, which ALSO can make Thrill of battle and Second wind, and Inner Beast all crit, which is a GREAT thing to have happen - have mantra and convalescence up when you do these. It also helps accuracy, which can make sure that stuns land.

Blood Bath is 25% of total damage as health, and doing more damage means you get more back. It does not stack with Convalescence, but it does stack with Inner Beast.

To be clear: I don't use feather foot.

Butcher's Block is by far the highest hate generation in the game.(same as RoH, 5x damage Except war does more damage, so it's the best one in the game.) Because of that, you don't need to do it as often, and you combo it with sunder anyway (which is 3x damage on top) - so make sure you're doing DPS abilities and other things while you fight - don't get stuck doing the same combo over and over.

I combo Convalescence and Mantra with Second wind and Thrill of Battle, alternating. I combo Bloodbath with Vengeance exclusively unless I'm in a pinch. I do a heavy>maim>storm>fracture combo once every 30 seconds. I'll often use unchained for this if it's an easier fight/midboss, and Infurate right after. It comes up often, but I'll generally save Infuriate for self heals or finishing him off with SC. I use Foresite during the off times, or if I'm waiting to stun. I'll usually stun, then run behind and holmgamg.

Creating macros for all this makes it a lot easier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conna

You didn't seem to notice that the majority of that group was rocking relics...including the tank.

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I tanked with a Garuda Scream and won. I could probably do it with an Ifrit Axe. It's not hard. It's just you need a team that will last 5 minutes. Unlike PLD, I can actually contribute to the Heart Phase. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Butcher's Block is by far the highest hate generation in the game.(same as RoH, 5x damage Except war does more damage, so it's the best one in the game.)

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Actually, it's not.

First off, 8% is not "by far" (BB is 280 enmity; Halone is 260; 280/260 = 1.077). Secondly, Medica II is the highest hate generation in the game. It's not even a contest. Just *try* keeping aggro off of a WHM that's tossing out Medica II like crazy: it can't be done. The initial ping has an enmity modifier of .8 and the HoT is at a 1.0. Plus, it hits 8 targets and generates enmity on *everything*. A tank's worst nightmare is a WHM that doesn't know how to manage its enmity because, no matter what that tank does, that WHM is going to be tanking.

I never forget that Garuda Group when the WHM cast Medica II right when I pulled.

Me << Why did you do that?

WHM>> I was trying to save MP.

(*chaos and carnage and death*)

Me << You killed everyone.

WHM >> Sorry. ; ;

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Actually, it's not.

First off, 8% is not "by far" (BB is 280 enmity; Halone is 260; 280/260 = 1.077). Secondly, Medica II is the highest hate generation in the game. It's not even a contest. Just *try* keeping aggro off of a WHM that's tossing out Medica II like crazy: it can't be done. The initial ping has an enmity modifier of .8 and the HoT is at a 1.0. Plus, it hits 8 targets and generates enmity on *everything*. A tank's worst nightmare is a WHM that doesn't know how to manage its enmity because, no matter what that tank does, that WHM is going to be tanking.

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When in tanking stance the enmity they cause is almost equal: 210x5 for BB and 208x5 for RoH, when taking into account dmg reductions.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I tanked with a Garuda Scream and won. I could probably do it with an Ifrit Axe. It's not hard. It's just you need a team that will last 5 minutes. Unlike PLD, I can actually contribute to the Heart Phase. :)

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Your dps isn't actually much higher than a paladins as has been calculated. Honestly all a warrior gives is a more intensive healing requirement. Where careful timing of things like eye for an eye and virus can make a world of difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conna

Your dps isn't actually much higher than a paladins as has been calculated. Honestly all a warrior gives is a more intensive healing requirement. Where careful timing of things like eye for an eye and virus can make a world of difference.

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I can't take statements like this seriously any more. Sorry, not after parse results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

I'd like to see some of your parses.

I'm going to guess any difference between you and PLD's is explained by the fact that you tend to run some STR accessories and have 20-30 points in STR in addition to having a bunch of crit materia, whereas a PLD will be running 30 vit, and all tanking accessories.



From my experience comparing myself to other PLD tanks we're within about 10 dps of each other, and I'm heavily invested in STR. If I shifted all of that to VIT the difference would nearly vanish entirely.

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Go back a few pages.

Please keep in mind that I wear the exact same gear sometime on my PLD and still Parse way lower. There's no way my PLD even with my WAR gear can keep up.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

For the record I parsed my crit rate without Wrath V or Internal Release with just 30 extra crit rate and got 7.22% which matches the Valk-Dancing Mad calculator. As far as crit rate from the actual stat goes it's accurate. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether % Crit Boost from abilities is a flat bonus or a multiplier. Judging by the fact that other abilities that increase a stat by a % (Berserk/DivineSeal/Foresight/etc.) actually update the character screen to show the new stat I would argue that the % Crit Boosts are a flat boost which is why the calculator is wrong when you add those in. Of course it's all just conjecture until someone parses it properly.

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Don't look at me. I just hit the button, slam on some mobs, and then screen shot the results. If you can "parse properly" go ahead and post.

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Originally Posted by Xariann

I don't think I am making myself clear.

I am not saying that keeping Wrath stacks is bad. I am saying that it still doesn't compete with Paladin even if you stack Crit. And I can see Crit being THAT good for you only if you use Inner Beast. Every time you don't use the new and improved Critting Inner Beast (TM) you are not doing better than Paladin. And we don't know if by using Inner Beast we are doing better anyhow.

Also Blood Bath doesn't benefit from Wrath. Your raised crit will benefit Blood Bath however.

Please show me numbers of your self healing with crit and the sources of that self healing and post them here. I would like to see a parse from Titan and what your parser says about your crit rate during the encounter.

I checked my parser and noticed that the average heal tick from Blood Bath is about 25 with my current gear and Ifrit weapon. Every 90 seconds, with your alleged 33ish% crit, I would get 12.5 HP heal on top of it. So one every three Blood Bath ticks I get that extra. I still don't see that making much difference.

Vengeance reflects 50 every time you get attacked. I don't know if that can crit. Can you show me a parse that shows that it can crit? Blood Bath, applied to Vengeance will heal for 25% of that damage, and considering that's small damage, it's also a small heal.

Steel Cyclone: you advocate keeping Wrath stacks but then you drop them for Storm Cyclone. I guess you use it only when Infuriate is up, otherwise you are dropping your Wrath and receiving less healing from others while AOEing, and Overpower could do the job instead. It's also spammable. I never felt the need to kill targets one by one, I felt overpower + Bloodbath kept me alive, but this is not something I can honestly say will be true for adds on hard battles because I haven't done hard modes that have adds.

In the mean time Strength has buffed every single of those Blood Bath ticks, as well as Steel Cyclone, as well as Inner Beast, as well as Second Wind etc.

I still don't see how stacking crit is king vs stacking strength.

If you are capped on an item and can't meld any more strength into it, by ALL MEANS go crit. Otherwise strength.

Vengeance

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Compete with PLD in what regard? With DPS, there's no question that it assists. If you're talking about percentage of HP healed, with Wrath V that is upped 15% and PLD's Shield Oath reduces Damage Dealt 20%. Which is plenty to "compete with PLD" for mitigation and that's without your even actively doing anything. That's why it's important that if you lose that buff there has to be a really good reason. You should not use your Inner Beast just because its up.

Wrath V benefits your Bloodbath because it's raises your over all Crit Rate. You will Crit more on all the damage you deal meaning that you will heal more with Bloodbath active. So it does benefit from Wrath.

Sadly, I can't find a Parser that accurately measures the healing I get from "You absorb" messages. The "You absrob" messages are mushed in with the healing I receive from WHMs and from Second Wind. Sometimes it doesn't show up at all. I can only get a feel for how much I'm healing myself for unless I go through the log with calculator, which I may just have to do at this point. But if you're curious maybe you can do it too and we'll share results.

Regarding Steel Cyclone: I'm not sure if you read that part, but when you're in a situation where you're dealing with a large group of trash mobs, Steel Cyclone can A) Heal you just as much as Inner Beast and B) kill the mobs faster before you melt like a snowflake. I'm not sure if you read that part or you're just taking it out of context. I'm not advocating using it on Titan or any other primal. OverPower takes TP and you can use it, but it's better to keep your TP for other things and use Steel Cyclone instead.

You can Crit Second Wind. My highest Crit for second Wind was 1035. It was pretty nice. (I had Berserk active). So you benefit from Crit Rate in this way as well.

Please keep in mind that there are always ways to get around the hits you take when you use Wrath V.

If you want your Crit Buff, you can use Internal Release AFTER you use your Wrath instead of stacking it with Wrath V to keep your Crit Buff. If you want to keep your self healing buff after you use your Wrath, you can use Convalecence or Mantra so that you keep your Self healing buff after using your Wrath.

And of course there's always Infuriate.

I think this is what Yoshi P was referring to when he said you need "additionals" to make WAR really strong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Thank you for your Detailed Reply.

For a better explanation let's look at what a Critical Hit actually is.



When you hit a Critical you'll see it say Critical! You hit Xmob for XXX damage (50%).

A critical hit is 50% more than a normal hit. Now, As a WAR, your mitigation depends highly on how much damage you deal. So you say you don't care, you'd better care. Inner Beast, Bloodbath, and even the cross class Second Wind are actually offensive skills because they scale with attack power and your ability to do damage.

The more damage you do, the more damage you can take. It's that simple.

When I first started stacking Critical Rate Materia, the goal was to increase the amount of times I used Critical Inner Beast to a level where I was comfortable using it. The result was a host more benefits that actually allowed me to use Inner Beast less.

For example. Before I started stacking Crit, when I was pulling multiple monsters, I would single target DPS one monster because I wanted to kill it faster as well as use Inner Beast to mitigate all the damage I was taking. There so no way I could use Bloodbath effectively because Bloodbath was ineffective in handling all the damage I was taking to any meaningfull extent. Why? Because my damage was so low.

After I raised my Crit Rate Considerably, I suddenly realized that using Vengeance and Bloodbath allong with Steel Cyclone healed me more than an Inner beast could while at the same time, dealing AoE damage and killing the enemies faster. It was a win win.

But I wasn't using Inner Beast. In this case, Steel Cyclone had more benefits.

So there are cases where Inner Beast will not be your heal of choice.

In the case of Titan, you still want to stack Crit so that when you use your Vengeance and Bloodbath Combo, you can gain more HP after Rock Busters and Stomps. And when you use Inner Beast you have a greater chance of Crit. But when you get Mountain Bustered in the face, and your Healer is distracted/out of commission you need more than a "chance" of crit. You need a Guaranteed Crit.

That's what takes me to Berserk, Berserk is raising your attack power 50%, Berserk is a guaranteed Critical hit. You want to use Berserk when you use Inner Beast in this case because if you do, you get enough Healing to over come the threshold of negative HP healed Guaranteed.. And if you crit that you get 50 percent more than that.

But again, this is when you're in a pinch or a bind. You dont' do this for every Mountain Buster. If you're not in a serious need of healing (such as the death/gaoling of your mages) your 15% heal buff will always be better ALWAYS. It took me a while to get this too. But you'll get it really quickly when you see how much Wrath V actually increase your HP regen and decreases the strain on your healers. You'll really get it more when you see how much Wrath V actually increases your damage dealt, which increases your HP regained from Bloodbath.

Do you understand why Wrath V is such a powerful mitigation and DPS tool?

What stacking Critical hit does, besides raising your DPS to crazy levels, you start unlocking the strength of the cooldowns you rarely, barely, and never-ly used before this allowing to regen more HP and closes that gap between PLD and WAR when it comes to EHP.

Regarding STR: You cannot "stack STR" in this game. STR is capped according to item level. I quite literally can add no more strength to my gear.

I've noticed that even the expert Websites are underestimating the gains to Crit Rate granted by abilities like Internal Release when they are used in connection with Wrath V. On the Psychflayer yesterday, I managed to achieve a sustained 33.3 Crit Rate, that fight is not a short one.

According to people's calculations I should have only been able to achieve 22.something percent before dropping off again to a 12.something percent.

There has got to be something else happening. I'm not sure what it is. But my DPS has gone up by 40 since I stacked Crit. And a good portion of that gets translated into mitigation.

One more EDIT: When you use Crit Rate you really increase your damage dealt far more than with STR on WAR. (It doesn't work that way on other classes.)

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I don't think I am making myself clear.

I am not saying that keeping Wrath stacks is bad. I am saying that it still doesn't compete with Paladin even if you stack Crit. And I can see Crit being THAT good for you only if you use Inner Beast. Every time you don't use the new and improved Critting Inner Beast (TM) you are not doing better than Paladin. And we don't know if by using Inner Beast we are doing better anyhow.

Also Blood Bath doesn't benefit from Wrath. Your raised crit will benefit Blood Bath however.

Please show me numbers of your self healing with crit and the sources of that self healing and post them here. I would like to see a parse from Titan and what your parser says about your crit rate during the encounter.

I checked my parser and noticed that the average heal tick from Blood Bath is about 25 with my current gear and Ifrit weapon. Every 90 seconds, with your alleged 33ish% crit, I would get 12.5 HP heal on top of it. So one every three Blood Bath ticks I get that extra. I still don't see that making much difference.

Vengeance reflects 50 every time you get attacked. I don't know if that can crit. Can you show me a parse that shows that it can crit? Blood Bath, applied to Vengeance will heal for 25% of that damage, and considering that's small damage, it's also a small heal.

Steel Cyclone: you advocate keeping Wrath stacks but then you drop them for Storm Cyclone. I guess you use it only when Infuriate is up, otherwise you are dropping your Wrath and receiving less healing from others while AOEing, and Overpower could do the job instead. It's also spammable. I never felt the need to kill targets one by one, I felt overpower + Bloodbath kept me alive, but this is not something I can honestly say will be true for adds on hard battles because I haven't done hard modes that have adds.

In the mean time Strength has buffed every single of those Blood Bath ticks, as well as Steel Cyclone, as well as Inner Beast, as well as Second Wind etc.

I still don't see how stacking crit is king vs stacking strength.

If you are capped on an item and can't meld any more strength into it, by ALL MEANS go crit. Otherwise strength.

Vengeance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I can't take statements like this seriously any more. Sorry, not after parse results.

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I'd like to see some of your parses.

I'm going to guess any difference between you and PLD's is explained by the fact that you tend to run some STR accessories and have 20-30 points in STR in addition to having a bunch of crit materia, whereas a PLD will be running 30 vit, and all tanking accessories.

From my experience comparing myself to other PLD tanks we're within about 10 dps of each other, and I'm heavily invested in STR. If I shifted all of that to VIT the difference would nearly vanish entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skies

And other enemies whose facing is important too, maybe intelligent usage of Holmgang can be useful?

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It COULD be useful, but the only boss after the WP slime that isn't immune to Bind is Garuda, and she's already a pushover as far as tanking goes.

And even if it could be used like that, being unable to move for 6 seconds is a huge risk if you time it improperly (miss it on Demon Wall for example and you will end up bound in the slime at the back).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Onisake

...

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Funny thing about data points is you can't just use 10 groups of 200 samples and call it 2000 samples. He keeps posting his Crit Rate and DPS against bosses which aren't alive for more than 10 min, but why doesn't he just go smack on a test dummy for a while. If he really wants an accurate sample of his average crit it needs to be in a controlled environment where no other factors come into play. Go to Coerthas, Whitebrim. Smack on a level 50 Test Dummy for 42 minutes (2.5GCD * 1000 = 2500s / 60s = 41.6min). You'll get at least one auto-attack between each ability so that will give you a sample size of around 2000. Initiate the fight with Infuriate and spam your butcher's block combo (this is to keep wrath at full and has the added benefit of testing whether the damage calculator is accurate by not diluting the test with Maim bonus or Storm's Eye). Spam Internal Release whenever it's up. Post parse results.

For the record I parsed my crit rate without Wrath V or Internal Release with just 30 extra crit rate and got 7.22% which matches the Valk-Dancing Mad calculator. As far as crit rate from the actual stat goes it's accurate. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether % Crit Boost from abilities is a flat bonus or a multiplier. Judging by the fact that other abilities that increase a stat by a % (Berserk/DivineSeal/Foresight/etc.) actually update the character screen to show the new stat I would argue that the % Crit Boosts are a flat boost which is why the calculator is wrong when you add those in. Of course it's all just conjecture until someone parses it properly.

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Originally Posted by Tronic

When in tanking stance the enmity they cause is almost equal: 210x5 for BB and 208x5 for RoH, when taking into account dmg reductions.

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Doesn't defiance do 3 things:
1 - increase HP for 25%
2 - Decrease damage by 25%
3 - DOUBLE Enmity generation?

So wouldn't it be 208x5 for RoH (1040 Units) and 210x5x2 (2100) for BB?

So, like, not 7%...or .9%...but like... 201.9%?

Correct me if I have it wrong.

PS I have been reading this page and participating where I can enough to the point where I am officially given up on my PLD, and I am working on leveling a WAR because it sounds like so much fun.

The tank stances don't double enmity. That was disproven. I can't remember the exact factor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

The tank stances don't double enmity. That was disproven. I can't remember the exact factor.

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Gotcha, I swear I heard somewhere that Shield Oath's was very very minimal and Defiance's was gigantic. I could be totally wrong or could have gotten horrible info.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Quick note on holmgang: Use it when bosses use moves that make them run to other players and ignore hate stack. Also, use it immediately when they turn to do a move on someone (the kind where they turn right back after), because it gives you a big block of time where he cant hit you, to heal yourself and take a breather. I sometimes stun, run behind him, and Holmgang. This increases the stun duration, essentially.

Partially. STR increases parry mitigation percent. High dex is important too, it increases parry rate, along with parry stat direct.

At 50, aim for the following stats. See my above posts for more information.

405 STR(363 if you can't gear to 405: Don't go over 363 in that case, put it in Vit instead. There's no difference between 363 and 404)
211 Dex. This is where the parry rate hits a minimum of 12% on dex alone, before the Parry stat is taken into account. This also helps crits, which ALSO can make Thrill of battle and Second wind, and Inner Beast all crit, which is a GREAT thing to have happen - have mantra and convalescence up when you do these. It also helps accuracy, which can make sure that stuns land.

Blood Bath is 25% of total damage as health, and doing more damage means you get more back. It does not stack with Convalescence, but it does stack with Inner Beast.

To be clear: I don't use feather foot.

Butcher's Block is by far the highest hate generation in the game.(same as RoH, 5x damage Except war does more damage, so it's the best one in the game.) Because of that, you don't need to do it as often, and you combo it with sunder anyway (which is 3x damage on top) - so make sure you're doing DPS abilities and other things while you fight - don't get stuck doing the same combo over and over.

I combo Convalescence and Mantra with Second wind and Thrill of Battle, alternating. I combo Bloodbath with Vengeance exclusively unless I'm in a pinch. I do a heavy>maim>storm>fracture combo once every 30 seconds. I'll often use unchained for this if it's an easier fight/midboss, and Infurate right after. It comes up often, but I'll generally save Infuriate for self heals or finishing him off with SC. I use Foresite during the off times, or if I'm waiting to stun. I'll usually stun, then run behind and holmgamg.

Creating macros for all this makes it a lot easier.

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Now that's what I was thinking before I even saw all the crit talk. Dexterity for parry chance.

Although the description doesn't say Dexterity helps crit, so you might be wrong there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

STR is primary on DPS classes. Adding STR increases DPS more than Crit does on those other classes. WAR is different, Not with the Crit Rate percentage buff which appears to result in a 20 fold crit rate increase instead of a 10 fold increase. I wonder if it's working as intended.

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the data you provided doesn't support this, when put side-by-side the other data provided in this thread. It doesn't match my data. in fact i'm barely in full darklight and we put out similar DPS numbers. the major difference is i'm rarely not at 20% crit. I will occasionally spike up to 25% for certain bosses. but for the most part, i'm 20% for everything and very rarely, if ever, drop below that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I can see no reason why I can hold a 30% Crit Rate on a boss when I shouldn't even hit that high ever in the fight ever. And when you're talking about dealing 50% more damage every 1 in 3 hits, that's a pretty substantial increase.

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ehhhh. except you're forgetting that the Lunatic Priest is also half of that fight. you had a 20% crit rate on. you spiked on the flayer for 33. which means you really had a 27% crit rate for that fight. you have to consider the entire encounter.

your crit rate on Anta was 22.6%. where's your 30% crit rate?

Demonwall is a very short fight, so you had a 30% crit there too. so you're getting your crits in big burts. in the longer fights, anta, your crit rate is more stable and closer to what I would expect.

across those 3 fights your crit rate was really 26.4%. your crit rate for the entire dungeon was about 27%. so your numbers are more consistent than you think. Data never lies. you just have to know how to read it.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

LOL That's I think one of the kinder responses since I joined this discussion. I have no issues holding hate from my fellow FFXIV'ers. :)

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I don't have any issues holding hate against anyone with gear on par to mine. However I often run AK with a relic BLM and relic BRD. Given I'm rocking a scream i'm a bit outmatched. I was also capable of doing this to a more limited extent with AF.

so rock some AF with your scream and then tell me you have 'no issues holding hate' especially against the trash mobs in AK against fully geared DD.

I don't use my A+ gear when running AK. I use spiritbond gear. which usually consists of unmelded NQ cobalt mixed with 1 or 2 pieces of darklight and trash rings. and yes, I can still hold hate off of my relic/DL/AF2 BLM with NQ cobalt. it's sure as shit not easy. but it is doable.

My goal is to push the limits of my class, not use gear as a crutch. There is a difference. 100% of the time Gear makes me better. it doesn't make me good.

if you're using gear as an argument that WAR is fine, then that's the undeniable proof that war needs help. Skill>gear. if you have to push the absolute limit of your class to be on par with an average joe of another, you have a balance issue. why is that so hard to understand? is it that hard for you to go down to the level of an average player and look up for a change?

The issue isn't for us that are capable of pushing the absolute limits of the class. its for those that can't. do we have to tell them "oh, sorry. you have to play paladin. you're too average to play war /faceroll /faceroll" how is that fair? how is that good design? it's not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

If you want a Guaranteed Crit look no further than Berserk. Like I posted earlier, that's what Berserk IS. Every hit you deal is +50% damage which is essentially a Crit. So if you want burst healing there you go. Plus you can crit on top of that.

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Berserk is actually a +50% to Attack Power. not to damage. there is a difference. it's not the same as criting constantly. that's like saying foresight decreases damage recieved by 20%.

defense =/= damage reduction. AP =/= damage dealt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Holmgang is sometimes mitigation. Sometimes not. When a primal turns around (Like with Friction or Landslide or Weight of the Land) You can freeze them in place. they can't turn around to hit you more.

Also, when you use Holmgang on Demon Wall, you cannot be thrown by Repel and can continue dealing damage.

I've actually killed Demon Wall this way, if your team dies after the adds and the Wall is creeping close to the muck, if you don't get repelled you can hold on just long enough to finish it off.

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i'll need to play with Holmgang more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Doesn't defiance do 3 things:
1 - increase HP for 25%
2 - Decrease damage by 25%
3 - DOUBLE Enmity generation?

So wouldn't it be 208x5 for RoH (1040 Units) and 210x5x2 (2100) for BB?

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Yes.

Quote:

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So, like, not 7%...or .9%...but like... 201.9%?

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The ~7% Kitru was referring to was how much stronger BB was to RoH out of tanking stance (280 vs 260).

Quote:

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PS I have been reading this page and participating where I can enough to the point where I am officially given up on my PLD, and I am working on leveling a WAR because it sounds like so much fun.

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Wait until parties prefer PLDs over you for Titan/Coil :/