Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I don't use a dps meter and main a healer

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So you gonna go around say there is minimal of bad players without proof? I'm aware you don't main healer, I don't main healer and I was thinking you would understand a whm shouldn't out dps a dps in expert roulette or is that completely fine? Last time I checked my job was to heal and keep people alive, but yet on top of that I did more than the dps himself.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

So you gonna go around say there is minimal of bad players without proof? I'm aware you don't main healer, I don't main healer and I was thinking you would understand a whm shouldn't out dps a dps in expert roulette or is that completely fine? Last time I checked my job was to heal and keep people alive, but yet on top of that I did more than the dps himself.

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I guess people would be less aggravated about how others play if they didn't use dps meters to keep tabs on how others are performing.

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Originally Posted by SavageCipher

The apologists/enablers of said bad players, is the real problem. We all pay money to play this game..properly. I don't spend money to repeatedly get tossed in with bad players who leave on wipe, and or don't heal correctly. Everything is goal oriented, if I want to have mindless fun, I'll fish or craft. There's outlets for that in the game. But when I'm in a dungeon, I want two things, items, and cohesive play.

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Sorry, but the only thing we are paying for is to license the game for use. Anything beyond that is you demanding things. It's cool and all that you only want to play with people who play properly, but that's not the transaction you signed.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I guess people would be less aggravated about how others play if they didn't use dps meters to keep tabs on how others are performing.

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So you are saying it's completely fine for a healer to out dps a actual dps? I remember so many times people on this forum say, tank job is to keep aggro, use cds etc, while a healer's job is to heal. Yet I see many healers out perform actual dps in the expert roulette? What are they doing? on sightseing while clicking once in a while? I don't care if a dps is doing just fine in roulettes, but when some dps like a samurai gets beaten by a warrior, something is wrong and you are here telling me it's fine? You what? Explain to me what a dps job is then

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

So you are saying it's completely fine for a healer to out dps a actual dps? I remember so many times people on this forum say, tank job is to keep aggro, use cds etc, while a healer's job is to heal. Yet I see many healers out perform actual dps in the expert roulette? What are they doing? on sightseing while clicking once in a while? I don't care if a dps is doing just fine in roulettes, but when some dps like a samurai gets beaten by a warrior, something is wrong and you are here telling me it's fine? You what? Explain to me what a dps job is then

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Honestly? I don't really care. I log in and complete EX roulette once a day and raid once a week. I barely even pay attention to what others are doing in DF parties. I heal and dps.... I focus on what I do, then move on.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I don't use a dps meter and main a healer

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Odds are you may simply not be noticing it? Skalla's smaller pulls make it less immediately obvious if one of your DPS aren't aoeing well, not to mention that as a WHM, if you're putting any real effort into your own personal DPS you can really hustle some quite sub par groups along. I've got an Ala Mhigo run in my logs that took over 30 minutes with me DPSing pretty much as hard as my MP pool would allow, I did just under 40% of the groups total DPS myself. Imagine if I'd have been a zero DPS healer? That run would have gone over 45 minutes despite no wipes.

It's not like that was a one off either, I can very quickly link a nice big selection of expert roulettes where I've been responsible for doing 35% or more of the groups DPS. I simply shouldn't be doing that as a healer in content labeled as 'expert'.

Of course, this totally depends on your view of 'truly bad'. Personally, if a DPS is keeping up with me, that's a good show in my eyes. They need to be dipping under 2k for me to start rolling my eyes (And probably running out of MP everywhere). If I had to put a number on 'truly bad', let's go with 1.5k dps as an actual DPS job.

In reality, it's not really the end of the world because frankly, actually failing an Expert Roulette would be a feat with the current batch of face rolls we have right now. I just can't help but wonder if it's something that should be addressed to try and get these people a little more prepared for the leap up to EX trials.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

What I find amusing, not from just this thread but also from the many others about the topic, is you would be led to believe people are being kicked from parties all the time due to awful play, and that advice is frequently being given for others to improve. I rarely ever see this occur in game, not to mention the number of truly bad players is minimal.

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I rarely give out advice anymore because I got tired of being called an elitist when I ask for DPS to simply AOE large pulls. Maybe there would be more people giving out advice if they weren’t called names for doing so. Or just flat-out ignored.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I guess people would be less aggravated about how others play if they didn't use dps meters to keep tabs on how others are performing.

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There’s no need to parse dungeons, but that doesn’t change that I still get irritated when I see DPS not AOEing large pulls. Parser or no parser, I can tell when someone isn’t AOEing.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Honestly it just feels like society in general has allowed this mentality of "I'm never at fault its always someone else that is the problem" to spread too much.

In terms of this game it's seen most often as calling someone elitist when they call someone out for lazy play or improper use of job skills, and claiming its a game design problem that the game developer has to fix for them because the real solution requires at least a minimum amount of effort from them.

It used to be the ONLY difference between "casual" and "hardcore" players was nothing but the average amount of time they played the game. It had no bearing on player skill at all and casual players were just as capable as any hardcore player. I suppose we can thank WoW for that too I guess... >.>

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Honestly it just feels like society in general has allowed this mentality of "I'm never at fault its always someone else that is the problem" to spread too much.

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At the risk of drifting horribly OT and making myself hugely unpopular in the process, the amount of youngsters I see at work with this mentality drives me to despair sometimes. If I behaved or spoke like some of the juniors I see back when I was in their position, I'd likely have found myself being immediately carried out of the building with very recourse.

Whilst things have improved overall, there's definitely a line that was crossed a good while back and it's giving us a generation that largely doesn't really have any grasp on responsibility or consequences.

Now excuse me whilst I don the fire proof overalls ;)

Nah, that's pretty on point. You ought to see the state of PvP these days. . .

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Honestly? I don't really care. I log in and complete EX roulette once a day and raid once a week. I barely even pay attention to what others are doing in DF parties. I heal and dps.... I focus on what I do, then move on.

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If you don't care then why bother commenting? Obviously a lot of us do care and think it shouldn't be acceptable for a dps to get out-parsed by a tank or healer. It'd save you a lot of effort if you just ignored these threads.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I guess people would be less aggravated about how others play if they didn't use dps meters to keep tabs on how others are performing.

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Not using a parser to see any numbers.

I still see when people are pressing only Butcher's Block. I still see when summoners won't dot or even cast. I still see when the Black Mage is spamming thunder IV on single target.

Maybe using a program to see dps isn't the problem, but the player actively refusing to do much of anything is.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Maybe using a program to see dps isn't the problem, but the player actively refusing to do much of anything is.

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Please take all my likes, they are yours.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

If you don't care then why bother commenting? Obviously a lot of us do care and think it shouldn't be acceptable for a dps to get out-parsed by a tank or healer. It'd save you a lot of effort if you just ignored these threads.

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What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

I personally agree with OP.
But on the other hand. It's a game where the vast majory just don't care it's a waste of time which is what it's ment to be. For many people playing well and having fun are 2 different things.

I personally take the stance of I want people to think I stood out, when playing whatever game I'm playing when playing with others. Single player games is where I do stupid stuff.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

they kind of designed it that way.
The story is laughably easy, the 24 man content is designed with the idea of like a third of the group being constantly distracted by a bird outside the window

pvp is not uncommon to have 5/8 of your team to be using that pvp bot that makes them camp at the base entry point and just follow passing players

It's just this weird mentality of video game players that a large portion of them want to get constantly rewarded for absolutely zero effort and they even get offended at the idea that they should at least try to do well; comparing that to working a job.

It's a really weird mentality, can't even think of another interactive hobby where "results from no effort" is a thing

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Well said.

And I have to add to this that I don't understand why so many players are so anti-DPS parsers when tanks and healers are already being evaluated for their performance.

Why is it just fine that two of the three roles in this game are scrutinized for their performance, but when it comes to DPS players, I've heard people spout all kinds of nonsense about how we "shouldn't be evaluated on their performance" and how we "should be understanding about the circumstances behind why they play poorly".

It's its own special brand of insanity, especially when DPS checks are very much a THING in this game...

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

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its not that we want this here to be an echo chamber, its just that we dont really hear good opinions or reasons why our view of things is wrong. For example, I still haven't read anywhere why anyone finds it acceptable for DPS to do less damage per second than healers or tanks. I still haven't seen a good reason why a DPS' performance should not be as transparent as a tanks or healers. And as long as we dont hear solid, good arguments, we will continue to be vocal to what we still think is true, our views are not challenged.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

its not that we want this here to be an echo chamber, its just that we dont really hear good opinions or reasons why our view of things is wrong. For example, I still haven't read anywhere why anyone finds it acceptable for DPS to do less damage per second than healers or tanks. I still haven't seen a good reason why a DPS' performance should not be as transparent as a tanks or healers. And as long as we dont hear solid, good arguments, we will continue to be vocal to what we still is true, our views are not challenged.

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This.

I'm a DPS player and I should be held to the same standards of play that tanks and healers are held to because that's FAIR.

I don't understand why anyone feels it's okay for tanks and healers to be judged but DPS players are these fragile little butterflies and they can't risk allowing us to know that WE and we alone are the reason our raid isn't making the DPS check...

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

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No one's asking for an echo chamber, we're asking for an actual good-faith discussion on this topic. I've seen you go into several threads related to parsing and dps-accountability saying that you don't see why the threads should exist, or that you think every argument has already been made so there's no point to discussing it. It's clear to me that you just don't want these topics to be discussed, so why not ignore them?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

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I don't need it to be an echo chamber. I want discussion, but I want both sides to bring good points. The only thing I'm generally hearing is anti-parsing, or how I'm overeating over simplest things. Which both are false, when I mention I'm not using a parser and I don't need one to see the same spell animation repeat.

I really, truthfully, honestly here, do not care if it's even sub-par. My expectations have died this low, and my playtime on my main here is showing it. I stopped doing expert until 4.2, even though I could gear the BLM I love so much. If I lowered my expectations much more, I'd stop playing in general. What's the norm for high up? 4k? 5k? I don't care if you're doing 2k in my expert. It's bound to be more than pressing 1 button until you fall asleep.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

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I happily welcome opposing viewpoints and opinions when I’m having discussions with people. But simply saying something like “I don’t care” is not offering anything to the discussion other than just stating your views on the matter, in my opinion.

A lot of discussions about topics like parsers or DPS debates (regarding all three roles) tend to have opposing opinions boil down to “Well, I don’t like [discussion’s topic], therefore it shouldn’t be in the game/I shouldn’t have to do it” or “I don’t care about [discussion’s topic], therefore why should anyone else care”. Very rarely do I see solid arguments debating the opposite side when it comes to parsing or to DPS debates (healer DPS, tank DPS, DPS AOEing, etc.).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Well, the difference in opinion regarding parsers, or player performance, really comes down to what content its in reference to. Its clear many people on the forums have certain expectations regarding player performance, usually boiling down to completing the content in a certain time frame. The counter argument to that, relating to DF roulettes at least, is casual "non-optimal' players deserve content as well. A lot of the friction comes from people expecting Savage skill level play in normal dungeon content. Many will say, just try, but that line isn't fooling anyone since trying is relative.
Its reasonable to say that if people expect a certain style of play, they should make their own groups rather than expect random people through a DF tool to bend to their every whim. With that said, I think its fair to have higher expectations relating to EX primal and savage raiding, since those types of content are designed for a different player base.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Well, the difference in opinion regarding parsers, or player performance, really comes down to what content its in reference to.

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Fair enough. A lot of pro-parsers specifically refer to Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate. A certain level of performance is expected in those types of content, and hence why people that are pro-parser talk about parsers with regards to said content. Because you can clear a dungeon with minimal effort, but Extremes/Savage/Ultimate are an entirely different beast.

There are people out there that parse dungeons and 24-mans, but there is really no need to use them as some measurement of player performance when it comes to high-end content because the two are completely different. Which is why I always say, when people bring up the bad apples that harass in dungeons over parse numbers, that most serious raiders who parse would just laugh at them, because who cares about numbers in dungeons? Raiders barely care about Extreme primal numbers—most only care and look at numbers for relevant Savage content.

I sincerely doubt the pro-parser posters here want parsers just so they can judge when it comes to dungeons; a lot of them want them in content where they actually matter so as to watch performance, and to also hold people accountable if need be. Example: a DPS is complaining about low DPS and trash talking other players, but they are being outDPS’d by the tanks; people would like to be able to say to a person like that “Uh, hey, maybe you should quiet down a little bit because you’re doing less than the WAR...”.

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Its clear many people on the forums have certain expectations regarding player performance, usually boiling down to completing the content in a certain time frame.

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Farm groups for Extremes and Savage floors typically like fast; I don’t think that’s exclusive to just forum posters, since a lot of players I meet in-game who probably do not even look at these discussions say they would rather have faster and cleaner runs as opposed to the slower ones. Even before I started posting on here, I preferred faster and cleaner runs when I was pony farming (back in the day) as opposed to runs where we would wipe 5 times before getting a clear in (and, of course, no pony).

For dungeons, I think a lot of players would like to spend less than 30 minutes in most, because they are well-worn content for a lot of the more veteran players; my personal experience is that people tend to be more understanding when there are new players in the dungeons, but I know that’s not always the case. Expert, people like 15~20 minute runs because they are massively easier than leveling dungeons, and take even less effort. Plus, with Expert Roulette having such a small variety to it, people get sick of the content relatively quickly, and feel like it’s more of a daily chore. Myself, I avoid most roulettes and just cap via other means because the content just isn’t that interesting to me anymore after 2+ years of them being relatively the same.

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The counter argument to that, relating to DF roulettes at least, is casual "non-optimal' players deserve content as well. A lot of the friction comes from people expecting Savage skill level play in normal dungeon content. Many will say, just try, but that line isn't fooling anyone since trying is relative.

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I have to disagree with the bolded statement. I’ve never seen anyone argue that players should play to a Savage-level or 95th percentile level when it comes to dungeons. Asking DPS to AOE when needed is not the same as asking for Savage-level play. Asking a healer to not stand around idle for 80% of the dungeon is not the same as asking for 95th percentile play.

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Its reasonable to say that if people expect a certain style of play, they should make their own groups rather than expect random people through a DF tool to bend to their every whim. With that said, I think its fair to have higher expectations relating to EX primal and savage raiding, since those types of content are designed for a different player base.

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The same can be said for both sides though. If a player wants to be an Ice Mage, why should they expect 3/7/23 other randoms to be okay with that playstyle? Why can’t they make a PF looking for players that will let them be an Ice Mage? I think in DF, people just want players to put in effort and try. I don’t think they expect them to play to a Savage level, or even to a purple or blue level. They expect the basics (tanks to tank, hold aggro, use cooldowns; healers to heal when appropriate, DPS when they can, and not stand around idle; and DPS to DPS—this means using AOEings in packs of 3+ mobs and not single target if they are in content where they have access to AOE skills).

With regards to the PFs, a lot of players (when it comes to Extremes/Savage content, that is), make party finders explicitly stating what they want (e.g., “high DPS”, “aim to skip second Black Hole”, “speed runs”, “parse runs”, “fast and clean clears”, etc.). There are players out there, though, that join those parties with zero business being in there, and then choose to throw a fit because they couldn’t join a group advertising high-level play because they do not meet those requirements—heck, people do this when they join farm parties with a bonus and the party refuses to get them a clear; because that’s not the purpose of the party. The purpose is to farm the content, not help Jimmy get his clear. If Jimmy wants his clear, he needs to join the appropriate group.

In one of the parser threads, there was a poster who complained because there was supposedly an “orange DPS only” PF up for some piece of content (I’m guessing a Savage party), and that they couldn’t join; they claimed that these parties are the “norm” in PF, and are excluding other players. They then said they would report any subsequent parties with such a description. Yet, when people responded with “just make your own PF”/“avoid PFs like that” remarks, the poster completely ignored them and continued to complain.

My point with this example is, is that players that want certain play advertise that in PFs, and then others still complain about it.
> “Make your own PF if you want 95th percentile play!”
>“OMG! That PF says ‘orange DPS only’! That’s so not fair and excluding other players from joining it! I’m going to report them!”
See the problem here? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

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A quote my father was always fond of saying "Never do anything half assed. If you're going to bother doing it, do it full assed."

Effort expectations should not differ by content. Especially if its done with DF not using a premade with friends each person should be performing to the best of their ability and by the time they hit expert roulette should atleast have the fundamentals of their job down and should always strive to be better than you were the day before. If you want to goof off or mess around that is what your pre-made with friends or FC members are for if you want to spam just 1 skill or do something silly like my first FC did and fight leviathan EX during ARR with 8 SCH.

Most people queue DF solo. This means you are grouping with 3, 7, or 23 random strangers depending on what you actually queued. It's like those group projects some of my teachers were fond of doing back when I was in school and the people intentionally screwing around and not putting out effort are the guy in your group that is given a task and doesn't do it resulting in either bringing the entire group down or making things harder for the other group members because they have to compensate for this person. Granted it was kind of funny when one of the teachers caught on to this and started grouping all the slackers together... >.>

And again with the casual / hardcore. This really should just be a term related to the time people actually spend playing the game when you consider a very large portion if not the majority of your "casual" players are logging more hours in game than your "hardcore" ones. About the only time this really changes is when there is a major content update.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

A quote my father was always fond of saying "Never do anything half assed. If you're going to bother doing it, do it full assed."

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I always go by that, because that's a really great line to follow. You either do it or you don't pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

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Nobody is expecting 1337 dps in expert roulettes, besides it's really hard to do low dps there as there is shitton of trash, clicking 1-2 aoe buttons isn't hard at all. You kinda have to try really hard not to click those buttons or not pay attention or even bother looking at the screen. You see the irony is many HATES doing expert, because it feels like a chore, yet they are willingly to put almost no effort and make the run even slower, which kinda confuses me in the first place. To make myself clear here, I don't care if anyone is doing --okay-- dps in experts, what should never happen is a healer to out damage an actually dps, same with tanks.

My only expectations from an expert roulette dps is that you use aoe on trash, and you out dps me on a boss. I'd argue that those are not incredibly high standards.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

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I personally am really fond of the idea of a parser that one can toggle on/off in PFs groups for applicable content. Like, for example: a Savage weekly 2 chest clear group that advertises that a built in parser is going to be used during the content, and all players will have access to it. And the PF would have an accompanying icon displaying: Group Parser ON. Much like how you see "Lootmaster" or "Minimum Ilvl". That way, if people don't like it, they don't join the party. People that like to have the parsers readily available can join it. I'd imagine the parser would function similar to ACT, with presets to show DPS, HPS, Overheal %, Deaths, etc. to make it fair for PS4 players that cannot use ACT.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

What I find amusing, not from just this thread but also from the many others about the topic, is you would be led to believe people are being kicked from parties all the time due to awful play, and that advice is frequently being given for others to improve. I rarely ever see this occur in game, not to mention the number of truly bad players is minimal.

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You just admited you are unable to notice in further posts, so you cant say that, as pointed by:

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I did expert as whm, was 400 below first dps and 200 higher than second. I was tank today, samurai did 800 lower than me. This is 2 out of 2 experts btw. So not it's not ''minimal''

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as well. You not using a dps meter or not has nothing to do with the point being presented.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I guess people would be less aggravated about how others play if they didn't use dps meters to keep tabs on how others are performing.

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You are not understanding, some people have issues with a run taking 30 min + when it can be done in 12-18. You do not need DPS meter to know if a run is going slow and as shown by the next post you are unable to notice it. Just because you can't notice it without a meter does not mean others can. There is cast bars, buff indicators, debuffs on the monsters, the speed it takes something to die. An experienced player can tell if the pace is slow on the first pull. Then while on the first pull or even the second pull can notice who is at fault by looking at what I said above.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Honestly? I don't really care. I log in and complete EX roulette once a day and raid once a week. I barely even pay attention to what others are doing in DF parties. I heal and dps.... I focus on what I do, then move on.

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If you do not care and admit to not even noticing why are you here in the first place? it is not helping the discussion which is basically how to handle players that under perform by a huge margin. You are not helping the discussion and derailing it for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

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You have no idea what people are taking about. They are not being nitpicky about not being on par with the top 1% of players. What we are talking about is the majority of the random DF runners, no matter the content in question do not know basic rotations, and that is something you admitted in your own posts you are unable to notice. So if you are unable to notice that, you are unable to notice what is being talked about here. Maybe it will help if you stop running off assumptions. Same thing pointed out in this post:

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I always go by that, because that's a really great line to follow. You either do it or you don't pretty much.

Nobody is expecting 1337 dps in expert roulettes, besides it's really hard to do low dps there as there is shitton of trash, clicking 1-2 aoe buttons isn't hard at all. You kinda have to try really hard not to click those buttons or not pay attention or even bother looking at the screen. You see the irony is many HATES doing expert, because it feels like a chore, yet they are willingly to put almost no effort and make the run even slower, which kinda confuses me in the first place. To make myself clear here, I don't care if anyone is doing --okay-- dps in experts, what should never happen is a healer to out damage an actually dps, same with tanks.

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How much we expect in high level content is not what this thread is about. The thread is about people not knowing the basics, tell you "You do not pay for my sub" when you try to tell them correct rotations, and of course the 80% idle healer meme.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

How much we expect in high level content is not what this thread is about. The thread is about people not knowing the basics, tell you "You do not pay for my sub" when you try to tell them correct rotations, and of course the 80% idle healer meme.

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^^^^^^

It stinks to give advice nicely and get told off for it.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

A quote my father was always fond of saying "Never do anything half assed. If you're going to bother doing it, do it full assed."

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This is a good quote and one I absolutely agree with. I've cleared all O1-4 savage mode and my static is proging through ultimate. I take every dungeon and trial, from satasha and normal ifrit to skalla and shinryu extreme, just as seriously as I do O4S and push myself to do the maximum performance in all levels of content. I also have absolutely zero tolerance towards people that think "I'm lazy" is a valid excuse for anything.

It's acceptable because the community is a bit too nice and the bad player is usually on a role that would take more than 15 minutes to replace.

It happens because palace of the dead leveling has become common practice and SE offers a $25 level up.

I have a fairly high tolerance but I hate myself for it, I get real tired of tanking dungeons that are lvl 30 or higher and ending up with a healer who is wearing gear that is all between levels 10 and 15

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Originally Posted by Seo

It's acceptable because the community is a bit too nice and the bad player is usually on a role that would take more than 15 minutes to replace.

It happens because palace of the dead leveling has become common practice and SE offers a $25 level up.

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3.1 I had multiple cases of DRG's with VIT accessories, killing their damage so they could stand in AoE.

Neither of those existed then. Those aren't the issue.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

3.1 I had multiple cases of DRG's with VIT accessories, killing their damage so they could stand in AoE.

Neither of those existed then. Those aren't the issue.

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Yeah, encouraging people to play better is the real issue at hand.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Yeah, encouraging people to play better is the real issue at hand.

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I tried. In this VIT DRG's case, it was not working. I did see this too on NIN and MNK too, but it was stupidly common for me on DRG's, to a point where I examined every dps's equips from here (Even now, in fear someone managed to break it.)

I wanted to play my AST, but I dropped it for BLM when that started because it was making runs slow to a crawl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

3.1 I had multiple cases of DRG's with VIT accessories, killing their damage so they could stand in AoE.

Neither of those existed then. Those aren't the issue.

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Admittedly, when I first started, I threw a few points(less than 10) into VIT because I was running solo FATEs between queues, and it was the easiest way to get them done without dying. Eventually, after learning DRG better, I swapped everything to STR. Never had VIT main accessories unless it was the best I had at the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Admittedly, when I first started, I threw a few points(less than 10) into VIT because I was running solo FATEs between queues, and it was the easiest way to get them done without dying. Eventually, after learning DRG better, I swapped everything to STR. Never had VIT main accessories unless it was the best I had at the time.

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A few points because you're learning (On DRG having animation locks) is okay to me, that's like... 10 strength, not too much of a loss. Now buying vit with weekly tomes for your DRG when you have 0 capped tanks?

Finally through the thread...

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Originally Posted by Miste

Are we even playing the same game? It's not only DPS....the fact that you don't understand the ways people can backpack others to a clear is telling.

Tanks can get backpacked by good healers. I myself have been on healer and I tanked and healed dungeons since the tank didn't know how to hold hate. I performed two roles in order to get through the runs and that was in 50+ dungeons. If I couldn't play healer at a high enough skill level to heal myself and keep myself alive (or keep a DPS who had hate alive) that run would have failed since I would be dead every pull and the party would wipe with no healer. So since I did the tank's job for them...aren't I backpacking them? Pretty sure I am.
...

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I once main tanked and main healed sastasha as an at level arcanist...

Had a horrible tank, couldn't hold hate and wasn't improving with advice.
The healer ended up rage quitting.

I swapped to Topaz and did the tanking and we never got a replacement healer, so I was using Physick to heal carby while the other dps and tank were essentially the dps...

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Don't care if the kid is 3 or 12 or 10. What matter is the kid shouldn't even play a MMO at those ages or between. So the arguement is silly as it sounds like.

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This reminded me of something my parents told me before...
My parents have told me that at the age of 3 I was able to properly use the microwave and make my own food...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Put a group of 8 people from the weekly late 24 man raids and put them into v1s. Guess how far they get and how high the % is of the enrage.

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You expect them to make it to enrage? :P

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

This one was a mad classic in nidhogg story mode xD.

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I actually did this the first time in Nidhogg...

I went in blind, as I usually do for story content, none of it has been hard enough to need to prep.


I was the one picked for the stack...
I went and stacked on the group.

The attack hit, and then I moved back to position...
And the attack hit a couple more times as I was moving.
And killed me.

Didn't know it hit multiple times... Oops. XD

If a player is playing poorly and refuses to change how he plays (or take advice), that's his problem and not mine. As such, I refuse to allow such players to bring me down or my party and I will happily kick from the party in a heartbeat (this mostly applies to Savage content). In lower level content such as leveling, I'm more understanding when people don't know the ins and outs of their class/jobs. Some people just play the game to have something to do: roleplaying, crafting, exploring etc and combat often times doesn't interest them very much.

To be fair and obvious, its the tech age. If you managed to run a PC, install the game, and create a profile, you can look up YT vids and or rotations online...search engines are your friend. If someone wants to play their class seriously, or with any sort of cohesion, they'll do research. Very few "naturals" exist in MMO's, and even then, people have ran the numbers and done all the work for you, at this point in time, there's no excuse for bad play. New players sure, but bad dps, tank and or healing? Inexcusable.

Also people just need to stop scapegoating with platitudes like; "Its just a game" or "I wasn't playing seriously". No one wants to wake up, to a losing battle, I don't want to install a game just so I can use tired platitudes due to suffering a loss. If you're new to a dungeon, ask questions, but don't play like a moron, that part is and should be frowned upon, especially if its high level content, and you know, the whole "Tech age" angle.