The Ifrit Fight is Dangerous to the Community.

If the health of a mob goes down before you even attack it.. there's a problem. Not just with Ifrit

Okay maybe I'm a little late to the whine fest but are you F***ing kidding me? Anyone who thinks having to "move" in an endgame style boss fight, or would use the words "dangerous to the community" in any context other than plague or nuclear holocaust... Needs to find another damn game to play. Holy crap I'm literally amazed. "Dur dee dun I was try play boss and partee group might has move?!? MOVE?!?...".. Please come out and admit this thread was a dare.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

I believe you were telling the OP that he could do whatever he wanted and not get the skills people were telling him are "required". You said:



And you mentioned having CON to level 20, so I guess I was supposed to assume you were using CureII... anyway.

The point is you do have cross-class abilities at your disposal, and the OP doesn't want to get any. Zero. Zilch. None.

Also, Defender, Foresight, Featherfoot, at the very least are "essential".


If "you" the tank are getting blow up. You're doing something wrong. If your mages are getting blow up, it might be because you are needing extra healing and they have to choose between keeping you alive or moving. If your DD are getting blown up, they are not paying attention.

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I apologize for the delayed response. Class and all that jazz.

When I made the "getting blown up" comment, it was in reference to mages, because as long as your mages don't die from un-tankable attacks, your tank won't die.

Also, I'm not advocating that people NOT improve their characters. Not at all. I myself am pushing my PUG closer to Accomplice and Second Wind II.

What I am saying is that the OP shouldn't hide behind the idea that "You are REQUIRED to have X skill" because that isn't true. I was making a point that it can be done without many of the abilities people are saying you absolutely must have, where a certain level of skill and knowledge of your class will make up for some of the shortcomings of not having certain skills.

I understand the way I do it isn't optimal, but I can still perform the function of the class until I round out my skill set. I won't lose hate, I'll shave off damage and as long as the healer doesn't die, neither will the tank.

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Originally Posted by Burrmanchu

Okay maybe I'm a little late to the whine fest but are you F***ing kidding me? Anyone who thinks having to "move" in an endgame style boss fight, or would use the words "dangerous to the community" in any context other than plague or nuclear holocaust... Needs to find another damn game to play. Holy crap I'm literally amazed. "Dur dee dun I was try play boss and partee group might has move?!? MOVE?!?...".. Please come out and admit this thread was a dare.

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The thread was doing so good by providing ways to defeat Ifrit until this man comes and ruins it again. Take a chill pill mister. Too many people rage for the most silliest things...

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

it was written for Ren, who is not doing this fight as a DoM but as a LNC. Everyone has their own style of play and if it works for you then it works for you. I try and make everything as efficient as possible i.e. instead of watching raid frames and the ground and being tunnel visioned I'll put HP Bars on everyone and make sure I have a view of the entire battlefield.

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i was speaking in general since Ren looked like he was gathering data not only for himself but for his/her group

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

i was speaking in general since Ren looked like he was gathering data not only for himself but for his/her group

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Absolutely correct. The more data we accumulate to share with our party members, the better our chances.

The data has always been around, you just need to get off your butt and look for it.

If you had done even a little looking, you would have found all of the info in this thread extremely easily.

BG's site as well as the DoW site will always have the info you want.

People need to learn 1st, complain 2nd.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

The data has always been around, you just need to get off your butt and look for it.

Don't have to make a thread and complain until people hand it to you.

BG's site as well as the DoW site will always have the info you want. I would start there first.

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Or they could, you know, fight it a bunch of times and find their own strat.

He already stated he watched videos and read the strategies before creating this topic. Not going to look back through the fifty some pages to find it though.

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Originally Posted by Treach

He already stated he watched videos and read the strategies before creating this topic. Not going to look back through the fifty some pages to find it though.

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From recent posts it sounds like there were specific issues with his group's strat that needed to be amended and/or he didn't watch the video as closely as others may have xD

Anyways, maybe next time, rather than making an over-dramatized thread about how xxx boss is too hard and SE needs to make an easymode version, you should either:

- Appreciate that xxx boss is meant to be a real challenge in order to not depreciate the vision of a 'god', 'primal', etc in game

- Work hard and pool all your resources into defeating it in order to have a true feeling of accomplishment at the end of the fight

- Network with other LSs across the forums who may have defeated it before you for tips and strategies

Or all three :D

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

What I'm trying to say is that I would like reasonable game design principles to be applied here, not "Let's make it incredibly difficult for lesser-skilled players to complete!"

I do not approve of elitism.


I have a reasonable party, and they have done well in other content. It's just puzzling to see that we, all of us at rank 50 with our main classes, simply cannot seem to get Ifrit past 50%, and even by then one of us has been knocked out at least once.

And yes, we have been using the strategies offered by linkshells such as BlueGartr, and have viewed the videos, etc. We're being screwed over by technical and human limitations.

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Ok I lied, had nothing better to do while waiting for a party.

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Originally Posted by Treach

Ok I lied, had nothing better to do while waiting for a party.

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Does anybody have anything better to do while party seeking? ...I'd say crafting, but that would be just mean.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

Does anybody have anything better to do while party seeking? ...I'd say crafting, but that would be just mean.

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Fap.

/10char

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

Does anybody have anything better to do while party seeking? ...I'd say crafting, but that would be just mean.

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seeking party?
try making party, much faster

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Originally Posted by Aistaraina

Or they could, you know, fight it a bunch of times and find their own strat.

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not everyones on vacation/home business/jobless so that might pose a problem if it took one group of LS's over 200 tries to make a strat.

I don't know about Ifrit in the game is it is currently, but this game needs challenges even if it promotes elitist behavior. This fight is the closest thing we have to end-game content, and end-game content is very important for any MMO. These challenges are what keeps us entertained, this is when we start dreaming about ultimate gear and so forth. Everything cannot be crafted or obtained in a relaxed manner, especially not the best pieces, we have to earn them with our blood and sweat. Therefore we can wear them proud.

so i read along here somewhere about a themepark... lets take that analogy somewhere


how do they redesign the superman rollercoaster to amuse the thrillseekers, and then ppl like me? who hate dropping more than 5 feet IRL... they arent gonna do it.. why should ifrit cater to everyone as well? hes the superman rollercoaster of the game, reserved for the hardcore players.. and besides.. its not like you cant beat the regular ifrit fight, right?

at a themepark there are many things to do, as well as in an MMO.. by no means should everything be created equally.. theres content for casual, and theres content for hardcore.. take it or leave it

your playing a game.. enjoy it for what it is, i do :)

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

I know Ifrit has certain stances to each weaponskill. The problem is being able to memorize them properly. I really do not have the mental clarity to accomplish memorization of the finer nuances of the Ifrit fight, and yet I would like to at least be able to beat him.

I used to be a hardcore player in other MMO's when I was younger and sharper. Those days are definitely behind me, and I have no desire to really revisit those habits.

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Maybe you should play Angry Birds on the iPhone. Requires no IQ and fun to boot! Very Inclusive!!

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Originally Posted by Veltaine

so i read along here somewhere about a themepark... lets take that analogy somewhere


how do they redesign the superman rollercoaster to amuse the thrillseekers, and then ppl like me? who hate dropping more than 5 feet IRL... they arent gonna do it.. why should ifrit cater to everyone as well? hes the superman rollercoaster of the game, reserved for the hardcore players.. and besides.. its not like you cant beat the regular ifrit fight, right?

at a themepark there are many things to do, as well as in an MMO.. by no means should everything be created equally.. theres content for casual, and theres content for hardcore.. take it or leave it

your playing a game.. enjoy it for what it is, i do :)

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An interesting way to place an argument, using the themepark analogy. I understand what you mean.

However, I have to ask, what will happen to those who would LIKE to hop onto these rides? Should we be greeted with a disclaimer before we fight Ifrit, like most of these "extreme rides" do at themeparks? This is a bit of a silly counterargument for me to make, but I'm trying to illustrate the point that if the platform allows for it, the system should be as inclusive as possible.

An actual, physical themepark will obviously have limitations on who can enjoy it; a video game is comprised of a virtual environment and lines of programming code.

The former is not easy to adapt for a paraplegic who wants to ride the Screaming Tornado, while the latter has the ability to be adapted to various software and hardware solutions to allow that same paraplegic person to play the game.

The principle I am going by is that video games, by their very nature, should be as inclusive as possible without sacrificing the thrill, challenge, and rewards that hardcore players crave from their game experiences. Thus, the solution would be to add variable difficulty modes that does not infringe on the "original" hardcore experience.

It's really quite simple, and if the hardcore players don't like the lower difficulty options, they can simply opt out of those modes and choose only the most difficult mode. This would have no impact whatsoever on the prestige factor of the encounter. In fact, it could even be a way for hardcore players to beat their chests and show off their manliness in a player exchange that would happen as follows:

Casual Player: "Hey, I beat Ifrit on One-Star difficulty, I think I'm ready for two stars."

Hardcore Player: "Oh, well, have fun getting inferior drops from two stars. I've only fought Ifrit on Three Star difficulty, and I got an Inferno Lance drop!"

I hope this illustrates very clearly that the variable-difficulty-options that I've been advocating on these forums will not hurt the hardcore players at all, but instead gives options to players whose skills are "inferior" to hardcore players.

well.... the jp pickup groups arent having that much of a hard time so maybe its more the non-jp casuals that are having problems... and not the content itself. This IS catering to the jp society more than any else and its going to go with their standards of difficulty in the end.

I wear long sleeve shirts under short sleeve shirts under long sleeve shirts.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

keeping an eye on ifrit's body as opposed to a chat log will give you more control over the fight and it's surroundings while also not taking away from your dps. You don't need a chatlog to tell you what he's about to do.

Ifrit drops down into linebacker stance = Eruption = MOVE OUT
Ifrit raises his right arm in the air = Plume = MOVE IN
Ifrit uses "WS red animation" = Incinerate or Burst = DONT DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT
Ifrit jumps = Cyclone = MOVE TO THE TANK
Ifrit glows red = the start of Sear = MAX AA RANGE

this isn't rocket surgery people

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Bingo.

Of course, despite the clarity of that advice... you will still get folks in the community giving any variation on the following statement:

"Well yeah, I could do all that, but that sounds like work, and this is a game and games are supposed to be fun. I don't play games to watch raid boss animations. I play to relax and unwind. Having to pay attention to what a raid boss is doing and then react is too stressful and not fun. It's unreasonable to expect players to do all that when all they want to do is have some fun in a video game. It would be much more reasonable, and fair to everybody, if SE just made the fight easier so more people could do it and not have to worry about all that. The gaming community is dominated by casual gamers and hardcore fights like that are for elitists, which are not what MMOs are about anymore. Elitists who want that need to go back to EQ and let people who aren't stuck in the past with archaic gameplay systems enjoy modern MMOs the way they're supposed to be. And I know that I'm right and speak for everybody because everybody obviously thinks the same way I do. If they don't think the way I do then they're elitists stuck in the early 2000s."

I'm pretty sure I covered every major argument for dumbing down content, on any forum, on any site, for any MMORPG in that paragraph... Someone let me know if I missed any...

I really don't understand where all of this negativity and complaining is coming from. Animation lock? FFXI had it, and I never heard of it being a bloated issue like this.

Classism? That's going to happen no matter WHAT the content demands or doesn't. Just be glad the "DD of choice" is lancer, because that in of itself does mean a good player can still DD as MRD or PUG for this fight. It just boils down to knowing what to do. Does lancer have an edge? Yes, but it's nothing like what Archer had in Darkhold.

Truth be told, my LS has yet to win this as a full group, as we usually fall short a member or two, and end up getting pick ups. We still win, even when we don't all have sentinel, or are even amazing at avoiding everything. The key to overcoming those problems are to remain calm, know when to back off to recover, and not make things worse.

I can partially agree with the op, I'm a bit annoyed that nobody will even offer me a chance to fight Ifrit simply because I'm an arc, doesn't even matter that I have good gear and materia, if I ask, they'll be like "there's an unclean one among us!", and blow me off.

Seriously, how are you going to know what strategies work when no one's willing to experiment? Forget waiting for someone else to do it, oftentimes it's more expedient to figure these things out for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Kymusashi

I really don't understand where all of this negativity and complaining is coming from. Animation lock? FFXI had it, and I never heard of it being a bloated issue like this.

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Well to be fair, i don't remember many (if any) instances in XI where you had to move around so often with such timing and precision. And so there wasn't this issue.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

I can partially agree with the op, I'm a bit annoyed that nobody will even offer me a chance to fight Ifrit simply because I'm an arc, doesn't even matter that I have good gear and materia, if I ask, they'll be like "there's an unclean one among us!", and blow me off.

Seriously, how are you going to know what strategies work when no one's willing to experiment? Forget waiting for someone else to do it, oftentimes it's more expedient to figure these things out for yourself.

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We went with archers our first 15 runs on 10/04/11 and realized they were complete sh*t for this fight due to lightshot lockups and nerfed multihit buff damage. The experimentation has been done and confirmed. People didn't bring DRG or RNG in XI when they got heavily nerfed. It happens in every MMO. Content doesn't always cater to your class.

I don't know, maybe I'm a more tolerant gamer. I just can't believe people want the devs to make it so we can cast, use ws, and abilities while running and having no pause. That idea just sounds really lazy, IMO. There are thousands of video games in just about every genre that have "animation lock". It clearly isn't a "problem".

As for archer, they can use the same safe spots as mages do.

"Dangerous to the community?" Resentment? "Community Unity?" Do you know what I resent? Inanity. Look it up, it's a great word. Phrases like the the unity of the community and other talking points are growing to be way too common. These things are being used as a bludgeon by the inane to try to get one's way.

They feel left behind, weak, listless, and are not being listened to - they are the little guy. Do you know why? Because they are inane, they are spectacularly boring and repetitive, they don't like a challenge they want it all handed over. They scream they represent the majority, they scream loud and long and far; and surely that means they are the voice of all.

I am part of the community, you do not represent me, and your entire idealism that everyone feels like this beat up lost weak creature is not who I am. Your demands that people that can succeed need to be diminished are as invalid as your fallacious logic that you are in fact the representative of the masses. I'm tired of these wearying demands that we hear you out, while you hold us hostage with a sad, whining persistence.

I speak for me. I like this battle, I like challenges, I like scores being kept, I like getting beat sometimes to get better, I like red ink on my errors, I like difference, I like division, I like hierarchy, I like rich, I like good, I like strong.

I am not a victim, and I will not have people like me made into sacrifices to mediocracy. To quote Hank Reardon, "If it is now the belief of my fellow men, who call themselves the public, that their mood requires victims, then I say: The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!"

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

"Dangerous to the community?" Resentment? "Community Unity?" Do you know what I resent? Inanity. Look it up, it's a great word. Phrases like the the unity of the community and other talking points are growing to be way too common. These things are being used as a bludgeon by the inane to try to get one's way.

They feel left behind, weak, listless, and are not being listened to - they are the little guy. Do you know why? Because they are inane, they are spectacularly boring and repetitive, they don't like a challenge they want it all handed over. They scream they represent the majority, they scream loud and long and far; and surely that means they are the voice of all.

I am part of the community, you do not represent me, and your entire idealism that everyone feels like this beat up lost weak creature is not who I am. Your demands that people that can succeed need to be diminished are as invalid as your fallacious logic that you are in fact the representative of the masses. I'm tired of these wearying demands that we hear you out, while you hold us hostage with a sad, whining persistence.

I speak for me. I like this battle, I like challenges, I like scores being kept, I like getting beat sometimes to get better, I like red ink on my errors, I like difference, I like division, I like hierarchy, I like rich, I like good, I like strong.

I am not a victim, and I will not have people like me made into sacrifices to mediocracy. To quote Hank Reardon, "If it is now the belief of my fellow men, who call themselves the public, that their mood requires victims, then I say: The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!"

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I'm pretty sure i love you and my raging boner agrees with me.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

I'm pretty sure i love you and my raging boner agrees with me.

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If you'll pardon the pun, glad I could be a rousing success with you. So, thanks... I think.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

"Dangerous to the community?" Resentment? "Community Unity?" Do you know what I resent? Inanity. Look it up, it's a great word. Phrases like the the unity of the community and other talking points are growing to be way too common. These things are being used as a bludgeon by the inane to try to get one's way.

They feel left behind, weak, listless, and are not being listened to - they are the little guy. Do you know why? Because they are inane, they are spectacularly boring and repetitive, they don't like a challenge they want it all handed over. They scream they represent the majority, they scream loud and long and far; and surely that means they are the voice of all.

I am part of the community, you do not represent me, and your entire idealism that everyone feels like this beat up lost weak creature is not who I am. Your demands that people that can succeed need to be diminished are as invalid as your fallacious logic that you are in fact the representative of the masses. I'm tired of these wearying demands that we hear you out, while you hold us hostage with a sad, whining persistence.

I speak for me. I like this battle, I like challenges, I like scores being kept, I like getting beat sometimes to get better, I like red ink on my errors, I like difference, I like division, I like hierarchy, I like rich, I like good, I like strong.

I am not a victim, and I will not have people like me made into sacrifices to mediocracy. To quote Hank Reardon, "If it is now the belief of my fellow men, who call themselves the public, that their mood requires victims, then I say: The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!"

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We are the 20%!

(of people who have beaten Ifrit so far)

While I agree the ifrit fight is hard, it is only hard because of the lag issues. Once that is fixed and dealt with everyone will realize just how easy this fight will be.

This Ifrit fight isnt dangerous to the community...its atleast content...tho malnurished content...Paying to play for this game ATM is dangerous because your prolly ganna lose anywhere from 1/3rd - 2/4th of the player base come pay time....and this game already has close to the lowest playerbase out of any online game.

The fight requires players to have high level abilities from many different classes, so most people ready for the content will be able to change class at will. It's meant to be the ultimate challenge for end game players, as it stands.

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Originally Posted by PikachuLink

This Ifrit fight isnt dangerous to the community...its atleast content...tho malnurished content...Paying to play for this game ATM is dangerous because your prolly ganna lose anywhere from 1/3rd - 1/4th of the player base come pay time....and this game already has close to the lowest playerbase out of any online game.

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here we go again

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Originally Posted by PikachuLink

This Ifrit fight isnt dangerous to the community...its atleast content...tho malnurished content...Paying to play for this game ATM is dangerous because your prolly ganna lose anywhere from 1/3rd - 2/4th of the player base come pay time....and this game already has close to the lowest playerbase out of any online game.

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9000 paying customers are better than 12000 moochers, or do you "work" in a non-for-profit and not get this very simple concept of business?

Incidentally, you are in the wrong forum - stay on topic, heaven forbid this topic get shut down...

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

9000 paying customers are better than 12000 moochers, or do you "work" in a non-for-profit and not get this very simple concept of business?

Incidentally, you are in the wrong forum - stay on topic, heaven forbid this topic get shut down...

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9000/12000 is a pretty low estimate too, im pretty sure we are well above that right now, just a matter of how much above that

The only thing I don't like about the Ifrit fight is the community's stance toward it. Unless you have almost every ability from the War classes including Bloodbath 2, SW2, and Sentinel you're pretty much denied access. I understand that those abilities make the fight easier but to flat out deny people because they don't play as much as they do is pretty messed up.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

Good morning.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the new posts in full, as I've already provided the responses earlier in the thread to such statements. The gist of it is below...

Regarding R25 Ifrit Fight: It's not repeatable unless someone in your party has the quest, and the behavioral patterns of Ifrit are not the same as R50. So that does not qualify.

Regarding using other class abilities: Stop thinking that "everybody" has the time to go around getting all of the classes to the appropriate rank just so they can participate in Ifrit "optimally". This is exclusionary behavior.

Regarding everybody else's responses: Read through the entire thread and learn how to respond through proper context, please. Just standing there from your own perspective and slinging your canned responses isn't going to help advance a constructive discussion.

I swear, this forum is hosting a community that is worse than World of Warcraft's at times...

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You do realize you just said some hypocritical things right? No? Maybe that's because of your responses being from your own perspective and slinging your canned responses.

You want to be able to do EVERYTHING in the game at any point in time no matter what, otherwise is exclusionary? Guess what kid. Get over it. Learning disabilities, physical handicap, mental fortitude. You should NOT be catered too. You play the game at the same level as everybody else, if you fail, you pick yourself up, discuss strategy, and dive back in like everyone else.

Quit thinking that you don't have to level up other classes to be effective at endgame content. You really don't understand this game at all if you think that you can get by on single class only skill-sets for the most challenging content thus far.

I think the fight is fine. There's a reason it's called (HARD). It's just a matter of getting people to do things right. Smaller group oriented material = smaller margin for error. Mix that up with the lag, and you've got an even smaller margin.

Your party members need to be on the ball. I have not beaten this fight yet. We've only had maybe 3 hours to work at it with my static.. Not that many attempts, really. We've seen heavy progression in the fight each time. We will get it. Only half of our party really has any 'raiding' experience, so we are really working to teach our friends how the fight works.

Welcome to 'raiding', where you throw yourself at something for at LEAST 10-20 attempts with a static until you and your hopefully skillful party have drilled the encounter into their head, and learn how it works.