An open discsusion on the consequences of death

uhm, I have tried to read all but It's really too long and confused.

Anyway, my idea is gimme cookies and trash the whip.

Instead of
"if you die you have a negative status"
--->
"if you do not die, you have a positive status"

for example:

Leve reset: we have a 10-20-30% (to define) bonus for exp and items.
everytime we die, we lose a certain amount of that bonus.
If we don't die for .. 1 hour? 30 minutes? 2 hours? we regain a part of the bonus.

So If we are good and don't die, we level fast, and acquire more loot
If we die as a leaf in autumn, we "lose" this bonus, but we can continue to play.

Be forced to do nothing for 2-3-10 minutes doesn't teach anything, it's just boring.

I died, ok, I go afk for a while, drink something.
Fun huh?

Sorry for the thread derailment, I try avoided it but Apperently I can't make a seperete discussion about this question

why is death penalties such a hot topic on the forums?
The reason I'm lost is no one likes penalties in death, and do every means to avoid death. Which includes power leveling like in ffxi. All a death penalty did was waste time. I was forced to be a rdm healer alot for parties who ended up having a PL. (even befor we started)
Not trying to be mean about it. Just a bit confused and surpised there 3 topics stating several Ideas on death penalties, some harsher then others.

Sorry if this is considered trolling, I did try making my own discussion on the matter.

It's not like there's really even a noticable death penalty in XI any more. I mean 150k/hour exp rates, everything in aby giving exp, soon even dynamis giving exp, multiple stackable abyssites reducing exp loss on death to near zero, auto-rr3 atma...

The death penalty in XI is dead. And good riddance.

While at this moment, these penalties seem weak due to the easiness of gil to come by, I think that as the game finds its playerbase and the value of gil rises, this will be perfectly balanced.

I'm of the personal opinion that many penalties for death, especially that of FFXI, exist mainly as a time sink - and the purposes of which are anachronistic (at best) to today's standards. Please don't let the loud minority here endanger what I feel are fair and modern penalties with what are IMO short-sighted criticisms. Innovation, of course, does not require one to reinvent the wheel, but change isn't always a bad thing.

Keep up that drive, Team Yoshida-san. The dedication shown since you guys joined the Devs have more than given me faith in the future of this MMO.

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Originally Posted by solracht

I am neither for or against his idea but people have addressed this in the last pages.

There's a worse penalty than losing experience points when doing missions or events: it's called failing the event. It's what happens when you lose too many times and your group either gets tired or runs out of time, or when the event is actually timed and you run out of time to keep on trying.

The penalty is not getting that cutscene, not getting deeper into the dungeon, nor getting items. Whatever your motivation was for doing the event in the first place is not accomplished.

Nobody cares about EXP loss during events/missions, especially since there are usually people who have Raise spells. In FFXI there were events where you had to sacrifice people in order to win (kite adds or suicide pulls) and it was done without hesitation. What's your answer to that? Perhaps they cared about something else beyond avoiding the death penalty? Perhaps losing the event was indeed worse than losing exp?

Do you honestly think that the reason people didn't try some events in FFXI was because they would lose some exp upon death? No, it was usually because most hard fights required some pre-reqs that couldn't be reobtained overnight, or because you could only do them a few times per week, or because the events were annoying enough to end up in failure without the right people (which translates into a waste of time, which is also a penalty).

A harsh death penalty is also not enough to make death matter during an encounter. Even with a death penalty, people were raised mid-battle in XI. Even with a death penalty, you saw zombie attacks. Don't you realize exp loss failed as a death deterrent in endgame events in FFXI? In XIV, do you really think linkshells wouldn't make people Return midfight if they died and their contribution for rejoining the fight could net them the win? (even with an exp penalty).

What you need to do is to make death matter by limiting how much you can recover during an encounter. What Yoshida suggested works for this, with some slight adjustments to Raise and encounter mechanics.

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^ This. 1000 times this.

Awesome news. I DO NOT want an SP/EXP loss on death NO WAY.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

Sorry for the thread derailment, I try avoided it but Apperently I can't make a seperete discussion about this question

why is death penalties such a hot topic on the forums?
The reason I'm lost is no one likes penalties in death, and do every means to avoid death. Which includes power leveling like in ffxi. All a death penalty did was waste time. I was forced to be a rdm healer alot for parties who ended up having a PL. (even befor we started)
Not trying to be mean about it. Just a bit confused and surpised there 3 topics stating several Ideas on death penalties, some harsher then others.

Sorry if this is considered trolling, I did try making my own discussion on the matter.

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I think it's because a developer posted on the matter. If you've ever visited forums for any other MMORPG, you'll notice that having a developer post somewhere is the fastest way to increase the life of a thread or topic tenfold.

From then on, it's a snowball effect. The topic gets popular, and when something is popular, others follow.

If you're asking about before Yoshida posted, then I honestly don't know.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

uhm,

So If we are good and don't die, we level fast, and acquire more loot
If we die as a leaf in autumn, we "lose" this bonus, but we can continue to play.

Be forced to do nothing for 2-3-10 minutes doesn't teach anything, it's just boring.

I died, ok, I go afk for a while, drink something.
Fun huh?

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wow... very good thinking, your solution beat mine. I think this is good idea, why force player to afk?

I like Yoshi-P's idea; it’s like a twist on FFXI's death penalty.

In FFXI if the player died and had to return they took a max EXP loss on their character depending on level. If the player was raised they suffered from weakness but didn't take as heavy of an EXP loss depending on the raise used.

So Yoshi-P's Idea:

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Definite occurrence of a ”Temporary status down” effect upon recovery of death (Wears off after a set time OR by paying gil to an NPC)
Occurrence of an ”equipment degradation” effect only when using return after death (Recovered by repair)

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Could be looked at like FFXI where the player doesn't have a raise at all and suffered EXP loss depending on their level.

4-24 = roughly 10%
25-67 = roughly 8%
68+ = roughly 2400 exp

And the following:

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Introduction of raise tier system (Raise I/Raise II/Raise III *Temporary names)
Raise I (After being raised, status down effect, no equipment damage)
Raise II (After being raised, weaker status down effect or a shortened status down time, no equipment damage)
Raise III (Perfect raise, no status down effect *Recast time and/or high MP cost)

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Reminds me of FFXI where:

Raise 1: 50% EXP back
Raise 2: 75% EXP back
Raise 3: 90% EXP back

With Yoshi-P's idea the higher the raise the less damage and/or status effects the player receives. And actually I think with Raise 1 there should still be some damage done to the gear, where he has no gear damage. I wouldn't mind it being:

Raise 1: Status Effect Down, 'X' amount of Gear Damage
Raise 2: Weaker Status Effect Down, weaker 'X' amount of Gear Damage
Raise 3: No Status Effect Down, No Gear Damage

It really looks like a twist on the FFXI penalty but done slightly different so it isn't an exact copy, so I have no problem with his idea at all. It's nice to have some kind of penalty with death because it stops people from abusing the system. Who cares if it keeps a player down for a few moments, and they might go afk until 'weakness' is off. The same happened in FFXI and we just worked through it, so I’ll work though this penalty as well.

If any mods are reading this, I like Yoshi-P’s idea but it seems he’s still thinking about some parts of it. I’d love to see it again once he gets it more hammered out and knows exactly what he will be doing.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Hmm... let's see. They can lose their jobs, they can get salary reductions... I'd say loss of one's livelihood is quite a punishment.

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My bad. I missed the trend where players are fined by their team for each game that they lose. </sarcasm>

In other words, I disagree with your premise. Of course a professional athlete who consistently fails to deliver will be sent back to the minors. The parallel that exists in most MMOs is that the player who consistently dies will likely get discouraged and play something else instead.

Professional athletes aren't fined on a per-loss basis, so using that as your example to prove that we should be is a pretty flimsy argument.

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Originally Posted by wind

Its amazing that people are actually WANTING sp loss because this game 'needs' a consequence? If I to recall how many hrs spent on senseless buffer grinding because of preparation or aftermath of AV I'd rather shoot myself rofl. Maybe I don't have a high masochistic personality as some of you other people >.< but wanting SP loss seems retarded on so many levels.
*main reason I say this is from the already overwhelming posts / cries / threads / opinions that all this game is atm is a grind fest.. so seeing some advocating the creation of yet another reason to grind confuses me :(*

I'm not saying we shouldn't have consequences(just not sp loss) but I'm not all gun-ho for it either.

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I agree. Right now I'm not a huge fan of putting too much consequences for stuff in the game, or nerfing things for that matter. Right now, FFXIV is trying to get to a point where it is marketable and sellable for the PS3 release, they need to shy away as much as possible from alienating fans.

im more for losing massive chunks of armor % more then paying to remove penalty or sp loss. I dont know about you guys but having to pay to remove death doesnt make me nervous about dying it makes me annoyed id have to go to someone specifially. If thats the case why not let alchemists create wound kits to get rid of weakness, youre still paying for death but you dont actually have to go somewhere to remove it.

I would support a death limit on leves. If total player deaths in the leve excede 3, the guildleve is considered a failure.

This would go a long way to making leves more challenging and eliminating zerg rushing.

Another way to tacking the death issue is to make mobs that become more powerful with every kill they make.

BTW ... Rewards are only one type of positive reinforcement (incorrect, see below). When your parents give you chores as punishment, that's positive reinforcement (incorrect, that's positive punishment). When a hot stove burns you when you touch it, that's positive reinforcement (incorrect, that's also positive punishement). Anything that gives you something as a consequence of your actions, be it money, chores, or pain ... is positive reinforcement (incorrect, it's positive, but not reiforcement). It's one of the reasons why pain is such an effective teacher.

No dear, those are examples of "reinforcement". Not "positive reinforcement".

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Originally Posted by Sorel

BTW ... Rewards are only one type of positive reinforcement. When your parents give you chores as punishment, that's positive reinforcement. When a hot stove burns you when you touch it, that's positive reinforcement. Anything that gives you something as a consequence of your actions, be it money, chores, or pain ... is positive reinforcement. It's one of the reasons why pain is such an effective teacher.

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You have a strange way of assessing it. You're right that getting chores based on something you did is getting something, however you didn't take into account the taking away of freedom that is part of doing the chores. That's why it's not really positive reinforcement and is really punishment.

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Originally Posted by trinta

No dear, those are examples of "reinforcement". Not "positive reinforcement".

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Actually turns out we're both kind of right ... and kind of wrong.

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Forms of operant conditioning:

Positive reinforcement: the adding of an appetitive stimulus to increase a certain behavior or response.
Example: Father gives candy to his daughter when she picks up her toys.
Punishment (positive punishment): the adding of an aversive stimulus to decrease a certain behavior or response.
Example: Mother yells at a child when running into the street.
Negative reinforcement: the taking of an aversive stimulus to increase certain behavior or response.
Example: Rolling up the window to block the wind.
Negative punishment (omission training): the taking away of an appetitive stimulus to decrease a certain behavior.
Example: Taking away a night light when child does not go to bed.

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Follow the link bellow for the full explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinfor..._reinforcement

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Actually turns out we're both kind of right ... and kind of wrong.

Positive reinforcement: the adding of an appetitive stimulus to increase a certain behavior or response.
Example: Father gives candy to his daughter when she picks up her toys.

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I'm not actually going to argue this with you, but I'm still trying to figure out how you think this definition you just posted says you're right?

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Originally Posted by trinta

I'm not actually going to argue this with you, but I'm still trying to figure out how you think this definition you just posted says you're right?

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I do not want to argue about arguing. If it will move things along, then I will happily state that my previous statement was wrong. I stand corrected. I will edit my previous posts to reflect my mistake.

The point that I was attempting to (but failing to) make is that we have more options than just taking away SP/XP/Anima (Negative Punishment). I think we should explore some of the other options for behavior modification in regards to death in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Lahru_Hukurou

I completely agree with you. I really really do not enjoy losing exp due to inept players or other things that are out of my control. I don't mind being frustrated when playing a game. Like if I'm fighting a tough monster, crafting things higher than my level, exploring places that I have no business being in, and other things like that. Not when one or more party members don't know or care about how they are playing. I don't need FFXI-esque death penalty to have a great fear of dying. I hate dying, I like the death penalty just how it is, to be honest. I don't need to lose xp/sp to make me not want to die.

I don't want to go back to the days when most people were to scared to do much of anything. I really get tired of seeing the tank being the first one to run away when a fight goes wrong. Tired of people not wanting to take risks and fight that really tough monster. People didn't want to take risks on FFXI because of the death penalty. If I wanted all of that, I would be playing FFXI right now. I played it for a few years, it is time to move on. Games evolve, just like everything else in life, it is natural. Loosing the experience that you have gained from previous fights isn't very realistic. You don't lose your experience in real life, why should we have to do it in a game?

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^ I pretty much agree with everything in this post. Thumbs up!

Does anyone else remember something in the patch notes around WAY back in November saying something about being locked out of active mode after 2 deaths?

What ever happened to that?

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Does anyone else remember something in the patch notes around WAY back in November saying something about being locked out of active mode after 2 deaths?

What ever happened to that?

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That's in the game. If you die twice in a row, you can't do anything.

I would like to suggest making you able to SET a return spot. Instead of the last destination. This with the 10-20 minute CD will be similar to other MMO's "Hearth" ability. Kind of like setting a home point.

Death penalty hmmm, what about if after respawn, we would have to play some, card game (that's just example) with death it self ;D (or other dark npc) ??

And if lose then some status punishment's will occurre, if win then we back to normal status or even recive some buff ? :)

Ofc it can't be easy to win, this would have to also contains some measure of luck, but It would give more excitement, and chance to recover :)

There needs to be NO...NO equipment damage, period. But if it just must be there, it either needs to be if you die OR just over a period of time during battle. Not both. That would be more trouble than it's worth. You can get TOO technical and this IS getting too technical. The game is called Final FANTASY for a reason. It's supposed to be fantasy. Not reality. There's no fun in having to constantly stop what you are doing and find someone to fix your equipment for you. Yea I know, I know this isn't Final Fantasy XI . But, it should be. I'm just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by PLW1973

There needs to be NO...NO equipment damage, period. But if it just must be there, it either needs to be if you die OR just over a period of time during battle. Not both. That would be more trouble than it's worth. You can get TOO technical and this IS getting too technical. The game is called Final FANTASY for a reason. It's supposed to be fantasy. Not reality. There's no fun in having to constantly stop what you are doing and find someone to fix your equipment for you. Yea I know, I know this isn't Final Fantasy XI . But, it should be. I'm just sayin'.

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Equipment doesn't wear that fast. Check to make sure you're the right rank and level for the gear your using. I've never had to stop what I was doing and have my equipment fixed. Back when weapons decayed a lot faster, I would continue sping with a broke weapon and then put it up in the mender's ward overnight.

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Originally Posted by PLW1973

There needs to be NO...NO equipment damage, period. But if it just must be there, it either needs to be if you die OR just over a period of time during battle. Not both. That would be more trouble than it's worth. You can get TOO technical and this IS getting too technical. The game is called Final FANTASY for a reason. It's supposed to be fantasy. Not reality. There's no fun in having to constantly stop what you are doing and find someone to fix your equipment for you. Yea I know, I know this isn't Final Fantasy XI . But, it should be. I'm just sayin'.

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Jeeze people get so attatched to their gear.

I really like Yoshida's idea. It seems to solve a lot of problems.

XI's penalties were too severe, to the point where I didn't want to take risks a lot of the time, which made the game less fun to me. Tension is great, but severe death penalties aren't. Not to me, at least.

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Originally Posted by Rane

I really like Yoshida's idea. It seems to solve a lot of problems.

XI's penalties were too severe, to the point where I didn't want to take risks a lot of the time, which made the game less fun to me. Tension is great, but severe death penalties aren't. Not to me, at least.

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Yeah, exactly. Which is why people are suggesting a more lenient death penalty.

Bottom line:

-Hardcores want a strict death penalty.
-Casuals want no death penalty.

To please both, we need a penalty that meets halfway.

As pointed out, charging gil for death (equipment damage) is not effective at all, so we are trying to discuss a moderate death penalty. SP or Anima are the only things we can consider since they're the only things that people consider important.

Hell, we even suggested just time (increasing the weakness period) but it was shot down.

The problem here is, Hardcores are willing to compromise on the solution, but Casuals aren't willing to move an inch. It's "my way or the highway" for them, which is completely irresponsible and frankly downright rude.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Yeah, exactly. Which is why people are suggesting a more lenient death penalty.

Bottom line:

-Hardcores want a strict death penalty.
-Casuals want no death penalty.

To please both, we need a penalty that meets halfway.

As pointed out, charging gil for death (equipment damage) is not effective at all, so we are trying to discuss a moderate death penalty. SP or Anima are the only things we can consider since they're the only things that people consider important.

Hell, we even suggested just time (increasing the weakness period) but it was shot down.

The problem here is, Hardcores are willing to compromise on the solution, but Casuals aren't willing to move an inch. It's "my way or the highway" for them, which is completely irresponsible and frankly downright rude.

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I'm up for anima penalties, but experience penalties have already gone through a trial by fire and failed and are a dealbreaker for a lot of people.


edit: even if you dont lose levels, which i would be ok with .

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Originally Posted by Nephera

I'm up for anima penalties, but experience penalties have already gone through a trial by fire and failed and are a dealbreaker for a lot of people.


edit: even if you dont lose levels, which i would be ok with .

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See, this is useful. So you are ok with losing Anima. And if I'm reading it correctly, you'd be ok with losing SP as long as you don't level down, right?

One of the proposed solutions is to lose anima upon death. Another one is to lose SP, but that SP can be bought back by spending Anima. I prefer the second option, since it gives you the choice on what you would like to sacrifice.

I didn't know a death penalty thread was made, but here is my idea, dont feel like typing it all out again http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...plus....-kinda..

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

See, this is useful. So you are ok with losing Anima. And if I'm reading it correctly, you'd be ok with losing SP as long as you don't level down, right?

One of the proposed solutions is to lose anima upon death. Another one is to lose SP, but that SP can be bought back by spending Anima. I prefer the second option, since it gives you the choice on what you would like to sacrifice.

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Yes, but keep in mind that several mmos that have the equivalent of sp penalties have lowered them over the years to make the games more casual friendly, I sincerely doubt that if we DO put one in that it will stick.

anima and/or armor on the other hand tend to be better recieved, what I do think they need to do is make armor/weapons significantly less effective when they drop into yellow/red alongside the penalty to armor.

edit: also when they put in chocobos and airships anima on death might not be an issue either.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Yes, but keep in mind that several mmos that have the equivalent of sp penalties have lowered them over the years to make the games more casual friendly, I sincerely doubt that if we DO put one in that it will stick.

anima and/or armor on the other hand tend to be better recieved, what I do think they need to do is make armor/weapons significantly less effective when they drop into yellow/red alongside the penalty to armor.

edit: also when they put in chocobos and airships anima on death might not be an issue either.

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Yeah, when I made the suggestion for death penalty, I had Aion specifically in mind. IMO, they did the death penalty system really well to accommodate both Hardcores and Casuals.

As far as your suggestion with equipment... it could work. But I think that's actually harsher than an SP/Anima penalty. If you significantly reduced half-broken and broken equipment even more than it is, then you run the risk of not being able to complete content. It would be even more severe than SP/Anima loss, IMO.

I don't fully understand Yoshida's comment. It sounds like if you die, you have two options: either get a raise to continue, or choose "return" and need to get repairs before you can continue. The latter sounds like it means also abandoning a guildleve, at least due to lack of time.

As for "zombie attacks" (--Yoshida) and people attempting "challenges that they obviously can't handle" (--a forum poster), much of that is the game's fault. First off, for example, rank 30 outposts open up at rank 23, even for solo players. Secondly, guildleve mobs are wildly different in strength. One guildleve gives me single green and blue mobs; another, pairs of red mobs; and there's no way to tell in advance. Thirdly, the guildleve continues even after death & return. Players find themselves in a situation where they not only need to, but also get rewarded by, respawning quickly and often.

I *really* don't enjoy doing "zombie attacks" but with the game so out of balance sometimes it can't be helped, even though I despise doing it. (I despise choosing to give up on a guildleve with 20 minutes remaining even more.) I think this "death penalty" is one step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Yeah, when I made the suggestion for death penalty, I had Aion specifically in mind. IMO, they did the death penalty system really well to accommodate both Hardcores and Casuals.

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oh god i played aion i should remember what the penalty was but i cant D:

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

As far as your suggestion with equipment... it could work. But I think that's actually harsher than an SP/Anima penalty. If you significantly reduced half-broken and broken equipment even more than it is, then you run the risk of not being able to complete content. It would be even more severe than SP/Anima loss, IMO.

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Not necessarily, the harshness is largely dependant on how they tweak the numbers.

I mean ideally you want to allow someone to have at least 3-4 chances to complete content with a return death (More with tier 1,2,3 rezzes)

with armor damage being the primary deterrent you can

1) Adjust the amount of equipment damage specific encounters do on killing a player
2) Adjust certain sets to take less damage than others(eq2 did this with fabled gear)
3) Adjust how much sets cost to repair (Ideally the low level ones should cost very little to allow to let new players get the hang of the game)
4) Adjust 1-10 sets to take lower armor damage on death to let new players get the hang of the game

now i will admit there is one giant huge gaping hole with this that yoshida has acknowledged and addressed

"Nobody is here to repair my armor wat do?" I am assuming he is going to put more repair npcs around, lower the repair to 60% but significantly lower the price, the end result: you get fewer chances with half repaired armor but you dont have to stop. Also some money gets taken out of the economy.

I am truly dumbfounded at seeing this thread still going. I'm sure it's been said and I'll say it again, harsher penalties does not equate to a more challenging and rewarding game, if anything it's quite the opposite. It breeds cookie cutter setups so as to avoid dying. It negates the possibility of people thinking outside the box and to try new ways of doing things.

We've seen it happen in FFXI, people who wouldn't even try a new way for fear of losing experience points. Why would anyone want this to happen again?

I said it in my earlier post and I'll say it again, right now weakness serves it's purpose, that is to prevent people from immediately attacking right after death. Anyone wanting anything beyond weakness is just a glutton for punishment and should pursue other venues to fulfill their needs for punishment. May I suggest BDSM?

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Originally Posted by CupDeNoodles

We've seen it happen in FFXI, people who wouldn't even try a new way for fear of losing experience points. Why would anyone want this to happen again?

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Look, I'm sorry you couldn't get into a good LS with you 75PUP/37DNC but some people want a feeling of actual accomplishment when they play the game. In my experience, anyone who even used the term "cookie cutter" was just looking for an excuse why their gear wasn't as good as other people. Something needs to be done to the death system to create any kind of feeling of urgency when playing at all. And it's pretty much confirmed it's going to happen so I don't understand why you're arguing about it.

Being able to solo to max level and kill these "NMs" (I wouldn't even compare them to ones in XI) is seriously a joke. I'm all for a "faster paced game" than XI but honestly XIV as it stands now is just way too easy in general. This is just one little part to making the game better.

I'm for gear damage as a death penalty, but think you should have gear damage even if you get revived, unlike what was stated by the Dev. Right now there are too many repair mats available in the game, it is a good way to put them to more use, especially since gear degradation is a lot slower thanks to a previous update.

SP/EXP loss is going too far, and especially de-leveling if anyone is foolish enough to want that back.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Look, I'm sorry you couldn't get into a good LS with you 75PUP/37DNC but some people want a feeling of actual accomplishment when they play the game. In my experience, anyone who even used the term "cookie cutter" was just looking for an excuse why their gear wasn't as good as other people. Something needs to be done to the death system to create any kind of feeling of urgency when playing at all. And it's pretty much confirmed it's going to happen so I don't understand why you're arguing about it.

Being able to solo to max level and kill these "NMs" (I wouldn't even compare them to ones in XI) is seriously a joke. I'm all for a "faster paced game" than XI but honestly XIV as it stands now is just way too easy in general. This is just one little part to making the game better.

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How can you feel accomplished for losing more time when you lost X amount of SP/EXP trying to kill this or that (h)NM?

Adding a Time Sink doesn't add anything to the "feeling of urgency". It just make you waste more time to get back a lost SP/EXP buffer.

I do agree the current NM (are they really?) aren't this challenging at all; however, instead of asking to add stupid time sinks, why not start asking for more challenging mobs? With a rage timer these fights would add the feeling of urgency you miss.