Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

"I did this, so naturally everyone else who isn't me can do this too."

I'll use a tried and true method you like to use when an opposing viewpoint is offered! You have to be trolling now.

---

Your point is... 'the' point.
But sadly it doesn't change the reality of the game. I had two weeks off work.
I went back and looked at the dedicated Gpose diary I kept if my DT adventure. It was wonderful. Poses at vistas. A new glam ever 3 MSQ levels. (side quests here and there, I still maintain not a lot) Lots of FATES organically (on foot still) to enjoy the zones.

I was still 'enjoying' MSQ on 20th July, including that 2 weeks off.
I still wouldn't want to do the next expansion differently either. I want to spend 2/3 weeks making the story and the new zones 'feel big', like an epic adventure.
Sadly though, I'm really bored of the casual battle content (such is barely 'playable' content it's so lacking in 'resistance')

So for me, this game can have no future. It's time for me to progress to end game, but how I play is not 'organised' and 'goal oriented' enough. And I absolutely do not want to 'organise' my gaming. It's not why I do any gaming.
I do think it's a shame. I'd only need 2/3 extra weeks, and this casual player might not need to ask for more casual content. Further more high end are going to have months and months of nothing by end expansion. So what's the hurry?
Oh well it's irrelevant.
I know it is fact, from outside these forums, that I am not alone, in it being the game's schedule that is the problem with high end. We were a casual group, that had been mentored by a high end group and came together over extremes, and the new expansion just split us up again, they were 'all' done with MSQ in about 3 days.

Now I think about it, I suggest it might be this schedule that is 'filtering' out players who are happy to do high end, but do not 'massively' 'enjoy' being goal oriented above all else. And so PF is full of the sort of people who abandon before a third pull.

However, I do recognise that does not at all mean that there are very many more than that handful of people I did know who are like minded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fawkes

Yep, everything EX and up is hardcore content. PF content is hardcore, DF content is casual.

---

That makes no sense, JP is using DF for Savage, so Savage is Casualcontent then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

That makes no sense, JP is using DF for Savage, so Savage is Casualcontent then.

---

So, I suppose you also queue for EX and Savage via DF and complete it within a reasonable amount of time in the day with whomever you're matched with?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erzaa

So, I suppose you also queue for EX and Savage via DF and complete it within a reasonable amount of time in the day with whomever you're matched with?

---

If EU/NA would do it like JP, i really would do it, i have no issue with it if the kill takes 10min or 2h, kill is kill, better then standing in limsa RPing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

If EU/NA would do it like JP, i really would do it, i have no issue with it if the kill takes 10min or 2h, kill is kill, better then standing in limsa RPing

---

Yea, but it doesn't work that way in EU/NA. And it doesn't work that way because it requires a good amount of coordination and time investment. If the content forces a player to have to allocate significant amount of time into homework and perfect coordination with other players with no mistakes (and frequently the use of tools that aren't part of the game itself), it can't be possibly be considered casual content.

The fact Japan has a different culture has no bearing on the conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erzaa

Yea, but it doesn't work that way in EU/NA. And it doesn't work that way because it requires a good amount of coordination and time investment. If the content forces a player to have to allocate significant amount of time into homework and perfect coordination with other players with no mistakes (and frequently the use of tools that aren't part of the game itself), it can't be possibly be considered casual content.

The fact Japan has a different culture has no bearing on the conversation.

---

I say only one thing, and the whole thing was more likeley to say it doesnt matter where you do your content if PF or DF thats not the point of being hardcore or not, i can do a dungeon in PF so its not hardcore, that was the point i wanted to prove but one thing :
People are always talking about savage needs perfect coordination etc no, thats actually not even true, savage requires one thing YOU need to know YOUR positionals and whats YOUR mechanic to do, YOU DONT NEED coordination with other players because if YOU do your job and the other one does his job the coordination will happen automatic without thinking about it, so no you dont need perfect coordination you only need to know what YOU have to do

but thats a different thing, i just wanted to point that out

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

I say only one thing, and the whole thing was more likeley to say it doesnt matter where you do your content if PF or DF thats not the point of being hardcore or not, i can do a dungeon in PF so its not hardcore, that was the point i wanted to prove but one thing :
People are always talking about savage needs perfect coordination etc no, thats actually not even true, savage requires one thing YOU need to know YOUR positionals and whats YOUR mechanic to do, YOU DONT NEED coordination with other players because if YOU do your job and the other one does his job the coordination will happen automatic without thinking about it, so no you dont need perfect coordination you only need to know what YOU have to do

but thats a different thing, i just wanted to point that out

---

I mean... you're just arguing semantics now.

Coordination: the organization of the different elements of a complex body or activity so as to enable them to work together effectively

If you know what you need to do, but someone else doesn't know what they need to do, or vice versa, will you still clear the content?

I've seen it frequently brought up by raiders in these forums that EX can be cleared in a few hours to a day in PF even with alot of mistakes, so maybe classifying it midcore is fine with me, it's definitely not casual.

The rest of them require discords, PFs or statics, planning a schedule throughout the week to prog, then for reclears etc. That's not a casual playstyle no matter how you choose to frame it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erzaa

I mean... you're just arguing semantics now.

Coordination: the organization of the different elements of a complex body or activity so as to enable them to work together effectively

If you know what you need to do, but someone else doesn't know what they need to do, or vice versa, will you still clear the content?

I've seen it frequently brought up by raiders in these forums that EX can be cleared in a few hours to a day in PF even with alot of mistakes, so maybe classifying it midcore is fine with me, it's definitely not casual.

The rest of them require discords, PFs or statics, planning a schedule throughout the week to prog, then for reclears etc. That's not a casual playstyle no matter how you choose to frame it.

---

Like i said my point was not to classifying any content, my point only was to not classify content based on if you use DF or PF because in BOTH cases can happen the SAME shit, like your example in PF even with the have already cleared restriction people can join which still doesnt know what to do really, you know? im not saying savage is no hardcore content, i just wanted to say DF or PF doesnt classifying anything

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Like i said my point was not to classifying any content, my point only was to not classify content based on if you use DF or PF because in BOTH cases can happen the SAME shit, like your example in PF even with the have already cleared restriction people can join which still doesnt know what to do really, you know? im not saying savage is no hardcore content, i just wanted to say DF or PF doesnt classifying anything

---

But the posters point was clear in its intention. You can classify something as hardcore or casual based on the kind of planning and preparation and time investment that's required.

Clicking a button in DF, being matched with whomever and clearing in less than hour, is a casual activity. You login, you do your roulettes one at a time, done in less than three hours and you're done. Mistakes from other players rarely matter, you'll almost never get flamed, because it's not meant to be treated as a serious game mode.

If you have to go into the PF, set up, wait to fill, figure out who knows what, can this be done with the group etc. etc. it's not a casual game mode.

The poster's point was that, not classifying PF vs DF, it was classifying how much work the two different styles of gameplay require.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erzaa

But the posters point was clear in its intention. You can classify something as hardcore or casual based on the kind of planning and preparation and time investment that's required.

Clicking a button in DF, being matched with whomever and clearing in less than hour, is a casual activity. You login, you do your roulettes one at a time, done in less than three hours and you're done. Mistakes from other players rarely matter, you'll almost never get flamed, because it's not meant to be treated as a serious game mode.

If you have to go into the PF, set up, wait to fill, figure out who knows what, can this be done with the group etc. etc. it's not a casual game mode.

The poster's point was that, not classifying PF vs DF, it was classifying how much work the two different styles of gameplay require.

---

And this is my point. CS3 needs to LEAD BY EXAMPLE.
The way to do that is tear up the game schedule.
Delay Ex release until 2 weeks after MSQ.
Give 2 Weeks with nothing new but the Ex's. (No savage)
Now you create an expectation that it is OK to spend 2 weeks progging them to clear.
And now the slower progress you will make in PFs that don't require guide familiarity (allowing it to be casual), and guarantees of performance, become a better understood expectation.
And now you will get 'casual' PFs, that are happy to prog together, and accept that today they are paying it forward and helping people with P1, rather than progging P2 consistently as they had hoped.
But the cause of when you stop tolerating that, and become more selfish about your own prog, is when you feel you have to clear by tomorrow if not even today!
And who knows DF/RaudF might start to be used.

Chaotic was most fun for me when we were queuing and refilling it from DF on day 0. (That would never have worked too clear phase 2 though. People know mechanics, easy, don't know mechanics, literally futile, not even prog is achievable (good luck explaining, better impatience and no common language. Oh yeah "perfect midcore")

Extreemes can be casual. CB3 needs to show leadership.

We have another problem though. You do need to communicate in Chat if you do not know the fight. That is where JP has an advantage.
In EU, and NA you don't get as many people who ask speak the same language. The best is probably E, but that is also where you get people who can't recruit enough Via their DFJ and speak only a little, or dont speak any of DEFJ, and so now you make no headway with an Enum they don't understand.

That is when casual Extreme blind progs, can become 'futile'.
(Maybe casual Extreeme isn't possible. But I'm not convinced.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gurgeh

I'm not sure either. But I was playing a lot. Maybe, I just struggling with MSQ and I didn't realise it. Finding ways to flesh things out and mix things up. A couple of weeks for MSQ doesn't sound wrong though? You farm a few glams along the way. FATES, one crafter to 100. Then there are Normals to farn for a bit of gear. And Extreemes to prog. Its about a week per extreme.
I was not alone in taking that long. It was just the savage raiders who were done.
I still think you all must just crazy rushing things to be ready for savage in four weeks. Doing nothing that doesn't work towards savage, not playing with your sports etc.
Four weeks just seems nuts. I don't get it.

---

Progging an ex trial for an entire week seems a bit long. It sounds like that's eating up much of your time. Usually that's done in a lockout or two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gurgeh

That is when casual Extreme blind progs, can become 'futile'.
(Maybe casual Extreeme isn't possible. But I'm not convinced.)

---

Honestly, I don't know know if it is. I've seen it argued that it's not possible because of the game's strict adherence to pattern recognition and memorisation. I've also seen it argued that they'll never move away from such a playstyle because of the way the game works with regard to netcode and snapshotting.

It might right, it might wrong.

But the reality is, I'm not a game or battle content designer, so I can't say.

All I can say is that, the current game modes past casual (with the exception of deep dungeons which I love), are not for me and never will be.

In the last couple pages this thread has devolved into arguing the semantics of what is casual and what is hardcore content. This discussion misses the point completely. The problem is that there is just a big gap in the spectrum of difficulty between normal raids/dungeons/normal trials and the next hardest thing: ex trials.

Difficulty in games needs to be gradual. Ex trials are just a huge spike in difficulty from the next hardest thing (raids, dungeons, trials). Now I am not saying make ex trials easier, but the devs have now spent too many years not filling this gap between these 2 types of content. Endwalker had literally nothing filling this gap of difficulty. I know Dawntrail won't make the same mistake but the fact that this content is always so backloaded into the expansion is just disheartening. People's patience is wearing thin. This gap in difficulty is probably the biggest reason people are so divisive over the meaning of "casual" and "hardcore", but we need to look at it from a different perspective than what we label it as.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraide

Progging an ex trial for an entire week seems a bit long. It sounds like that's eating up much of your time. Usually that's done in a lockout or two.

---

Perhaps if you are doing it when it comes out with all the savage players, but if you are doing it when I do it (late but still high end), then a group is typically only able to clear 2 to 3 new mechanics per lookout.
There are one of two people to bring up to speed in the first 10 - 20, then inconsistency hits, then you see and practice a new mech then another. (Possibly more depending)

Ex3 was consistently, working out meteors and you will see a bit of ice. No ilvl requirement and you see a 'lot' of average less than min +5. Learning ice and you might 'just' see P3.
'mostly got ice down' and yes you might then get though P3 in just part of a lockout.
But everyone has to get through meteors and ice and doing 'no guide needed' that's, at least 2 lockouts on just those two, by the time you've brought people up to speed here and there.
You can see they think they know the earlier mechanics, but there is a bit here and there they don't realise they are just fluking.
(I think there is a lot of [stupid] assumption that other people should know they don't know a phase, when actually they honestly think they do but have just fluked it)
Add a day for a PF where you make no progress because you're just helping people get consistent at a previous P they've probably just limping through before now.
Add another two for time for the bits before and after maybe a bit of trouble with DPS check or the enrage.
Well now we are up to five days.
Lose another 2 because no prog attempted because IRL and this casual.

I have to wonder if these 1 or 2 lockout clears are actually all guided, day 1 with studied Savage and ultimate raiders and their gear, people who bail and find another party if meteors isn't cleared 3rd pull for a bit of ice prog.

All of which is different because none of that is 'casual'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Your point is... 'the' point.
But sadly it doesn't change the reality of the game. I had two weeks off work.
I went back and looked at the dedicated Gpose diary I kept if my DT adventure. It was wonderful. Poses at vistas. A new glam ever 3 MSQ levels. (side quests here and there, I still maintain not a lot) Lots of FATES organically (on foot still) to enjoy the zones.

I was still 'enjoying' MSQ on 20th July, including that 2 weeks off.
I still wouldn't want to do the next expansion differently either. I want to spend 2/3 weeks making the story and the new zones 'feel big', like an epic adventure.
Sadly though, I'm really bored of the casual battle content (such is barely 'playable' content it's so lacking in 'resistance')

So for me, this game can have no future. It's time for me to progress to end game, but how I play is not 'organised' and 'goal oriented' enough. And I absolutely do not want to 'organise' my gaming. It's not why I do any gaming.
I do think it's a shame. I'd only need 2/3 extra weeks, and this casual player might not need to ask for more casual content. Further more high end are going to have months and months of nothing by end expansion. So what's the hurry?
Oh well it's irrelevant.
I know it is fact, from outside these forums, that I am not alone, in it being the game's schedule that is the problem with high end. We were a casual group, that had been mentored by a high end group and came together over extremes, and the new expansion just split us up again, they were 'all' done with MSQ in about 3 days.

Now I think about it, I suggest it might be this schedule that is 'filtering' out players who are happy to do high end, but do not 'massively' 'enjoy' being goal oriented above all else. And so PF is full of the sort of people who abandon before a third pull.

However, I do recognise that does not at all mean that there are very many more than that handful of people I did know who are like minded.

---

imo, just play how you'd like to play. you don't have to organize your playtime to the extent others do, you're gonna find like-minded players eventually; there's more high-end content coming than casual content afaik, could be wrong though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menriq

Help me see where I am going wrong. If we are using total time investment as a metric for hardcore, then are we saying relics (outside of EW) are considered hardcore? Because I'm pretty sure some of them took longer than 10 hours to do, and I don't think I've seen anyone say relics are hardcore content.

I think the flaw with your numbers (which I'm hoping you'll clarify) is that it seems to think that every pull is going 10 minutes, and that is not the case, especially early in prog on a specific fight.

---

Yeah, maybe I didn't explain well. The ratio is of total time investment to the total time the content takes to execute properly. For example, a properly executed Savage boss kill generally takes ten minutes, but it can take ten or more hours of practice to get to the point where you have that proper ten-minute execution. The ratio is even more extreme for Ultimates.

Getting a relic weapon, on the other hand, is not really a matter of execution; it is, by design, something that takes weeks or months of grinding easy content. You never struggle to complete that content; you just need to do it over and over and over. Its ratio of total time investment to total time it takes to "execute properly" is 1:1.

Also remember that the ratio is not indicative of total hours spent, and that "casual" vs. "hardcore" gamer is not the same as "casual" vs. "hardcore" content. Lots of people play this game eight or more hours a day; they are, objectively, hardcore gamers, playing FFXIV as if it's a job. But they may never once touch hardcore content.

This thread has deteriorated to an unbelievable degree and revealed some posters here to hold quite the disturbing views.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

I giggled.

Static? Where I must apply like a job? With curriculum, interview and all? To be even more judged by toxic hardcore players?

Discord? Where hardcore players can speak their minds without limits and be as toxic as they want without risk being banned?

Any other suggestion?

---

Statics are groups that will spend a significant amount of time with each other, to work towards a shared goal with a shared set of rules. Each static will set its own rules and searching for likeminded individuals. And statics are just as diverse as any other group. Beginner friendly statics often require nothing of members beside showing up in some reasonable gear and food, and the most basic motivation to do the content. Further, just as statics are searching for individuals that fit, individuals search for groups that they fit in in turn. This whole "all hardcores are toxic on discord" is just a cheap cop out and excuse you tell yourself, and it's a deeply dishonest one, and incredibly rude on top of it. There are groups that are acceptable of very crude behavior and don't take the raiding serious at all, there are some groups highly professional when it comes to decorum and discipline. That's why tryouts for an evening are important.

Again, have none of you ever been in any sports club, or any other group activity? No table top gaming, no kitchen table Magic, no music bands, football team? Spent whole life only in front of some display?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

"Raiding" in this game is actually "how well can i understand and memorize a guide"

---

There are statics that clear raid tiers completely blind. I know one containing pretty good players, and it simply takes them a few weeks longer because they work out every mechanic for themselves. That's just how they want to do it, and there is no problem with that at all. What they DO have to do though, is to figure out ways to solve the mechanics the bosses throw at them while dealing enough dps. I mean, how else would difficult content work? It wouldn't be difficult if it could be cleared when having no clue about job rotation, while ignoring the boss mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

and "this has to be done as fast and efficiently as possible" and "anyone who's worse or slower than me should quit the game."

---

100% pure, distilled persecution complex. Frankly, you painting the whole raiding community (which isn't some tiny fringe minority, high end content is done by a significant portion of the playerbase) that way is nothing short of vile. You have never stepped into any such groups, ever, have you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

You have to be good? Good at what? Good at memorization? What exactly takes skill in how this game handles raiding? If you said it took time of repeatedly bashing your head against the ground, then yeah, I'd agree.

---

In THIS game, the ability to press the correct buttons for maximum damage output while solving the various boss mechanics at the same time is the skill expression. Just like the ability to run very fast for long periods is the skill expression of marathon running, and knowledge of moves / situations as well as strategizing is the skill expression in chess. I mean, what point are you even making? Especially, when "bashing your head against the ground" is literally only viable in normal content, where a few key people can carry the rest of the team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

This is either some insane mental gymnastics or you're just trolling at this point.

---

Mawlzy is a performative forum poster. They were one of the people defending the OP in the thread where the OP showed a screenshot and admitted to throwing a Frontline match because "the other team had a premade, so there was nothing we could do but throw". This was in a time when Mawlzy's "rEsIsTaNcE" shtick was still focused on "premades are the problem of Frontline", and not the third to half of the playerbase who is "just here for the xp", or the literal afkers and feeders. Mawlzy has in the meantime switched their tune and is now for more measures against the afkers / leechers, but not because of some change in philosophy, but because "it's the issue more likely to be addressed by SE", their words. Simple opportunism. I mean, see here for the best Mawlzy hits: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/494715-Frontlines-sucks-Ultra-megathread?p=6575673&viewfull=1#post6575673

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erzaa

Yea, but it doesn't work that way in EU/NA. And it doesn't work that way because it requires a good amount of coordination and time investment. If the content forces a player to have to allocate significant amount of time into homework and perfect coordination with other players with no mistakes (and frequently the use of tools that aren't part of the game itself), it can't be possibly be considered casual content.

The fact Japan has a different culture has no bearing on the conversation.

---

What does have bearing though, is the general attitude of playing a combat oriented game like FF14 which has a history and future promise of delivering more combat content, especially harder one, but somehow being averse to doing any of it, or even bothering to apply themselves at least a bit. It's like joining a tennis club for the warm up and all the social gatherings, but never bothering to play tennis except against the wall. I mean, you can do that, but the tennis club will still focus mainly on it's core activity, tennis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buttobi

In the last couple pages this thread has devolved into arguing the semantics of what is casual and what is hardcore content. This discussion misses the point completely. The problem is that there is just a big gap in the spectrum of difficulty between normal raids/dungeons/normal trials and the next hardest thing: ex trials.

Difficulty in games needs to be gradual. Ex trials are just a huge spike in difficulty from the next hardest thing (raids, dungeons, trials). Now I am not saying make ex trials easier, but the devs have now spent too many years not filling this gap between these 2 types of content. Endwalker had literally nothing filling this gap of difficulty. I know Dawntrail won't make the same mistake but the fact that this content is always so backloaded into the expansion is just disheartening. People's patience is wearing thin. This gap in difficulty is probably the biggest reason people are so divisive over the meaning of "casual" and "hardcore", but we need to look at it from a different perspective than what we label it as.

---

Except, there is no way to bridge this gap, because at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual's willingness to improve in the first place. Take Red Choctober in Bozja. Not respecting the mechanics there will get one (very likely) killed. It only has 3 repeating mechanics, enrage is basically when the CE timer runs out. And yet this fight keeps wiping instances regularly. Because the community in general, instead of learning how to solve the mechanics, simply views "getting rezzed through the fight" as acceptable mode of operation. The EX fights putting a stop to such behavior by wiping raids is the only way to actually get people to get their act together, by providing this hard wall. "This far, no further, unless you actually start properly doing the mechanics and learn some basic rotation of your job".

I mean, funnily enough, the normal mode encounters are often very much the learning opportunity that can serve as preparation for the higher difficulty one. For example, Ramuh (Hard) uses all the same mechanics as extreme, they just don't hit as hard. Nidhogg in the dungeon iteration now uses "Hot Wings" and "Blazing Tail" as well as the eyes. Lots of mechanics are used in normal, which one could actually sit down and learn. But since these encounters can be "yolo'd", with no hard requirement to correctly solve them, that's what's being done. I've said it before, the game offers learning opportunities left and right, they are simply wasted either actively or passively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Mawlzy is a performative forum poster. They were one of the people defending the OP in the thread where the OP showed a screenshot and admitted to throwing a Frontline match because "the other team had a premade, so there was nothing we could do but throw". This was in a time when Mawlzy's "rEsIsTaNcE" shtick was still focused on "premades are the problem of Frontline", and not the third to half of the playerbase who is "just here for the xp", or the literal afkers and feeders. Mawlzy has in the meantime switched their tune and is now for more measures against the afkers / leechers, but not because of some change in philosophy, but because "it's the issue more likely to be addressed by SE", their words. Simple opportunism. I mean, see here for the best Mawlzy hits: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6575673

---

Allen, if people accept I am a "performative forum poster," they would likely conclude you are my agent. Your promotion of me is unparalleled, to the point of apparent obsession. The fact you manage to bring up a completely unrelated thread here to slam me shows true dedication.

My position on FL has indeed evolved. This can happen during discussions, at least for people who accept that they can be wrong about things. This does not appear to be a condition that burdens you. The fact you state categorically why my position has changed - something you cannot possibly know - is symptomatic of your unshakeable (and misplaced) confidence that you are infallible.

I should add that when you accused me of fishing for "updoots," I nearly reported you since I thought this was slang for my least favorite medical procedure. Google allowed me to learn a new word thanks to your intervention. tysm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

snip

---

Of course tiers are cleared, albeit not often, completely blind. They have to be for guides to even be made. Oh, is me repeating other people's experience offending you for some reason as far as my quoted phrases? So, because your experience isn't everyone else's experience, anyone who's had a different experience to you has "never stepped foot in any such groups, ever"? Pretty narrow-minded. Nor did I ever claim every single person who ever raids says things like that. If you're going to reply (days later, might I add), at least do so in good faith without looking for reasons to either be offended or refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't line up with your own personal experience. Thankfully, not everyone is AllenThyl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Allen, if people accept I am a "performative forum poster," they would likely conclude you are my agent. Your promotion of me is unparalleled, to the point of apparent obsession. The fact you manage to bring up a completely unrelated thread here to slam me shows true dedication.

---

Your statement perfectly demonstrates everything wrong with the attention economy. When "eNgAgEmEnT" becomes the only metric of measuring one's own life, and "line go up" the only quality criteria for that metric, even the thought of others being sincere disappears. The other thread isn't "unrelated", authenticity is a currency in discussions. Words have meaning, and you describing island sanctuary as "end game" for FF14, is an inane take. However, as the other thread showed, that's all you have, in every topic. Because you post for the sake of posting. For the "eNgAgEmEnT".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

My position on FL has indeed evolved.

---

"evolved" ...
Flipflopping isn't "evolving". What didn't change is the underlying motivation for your positions, which is pure attention seeking. The whole "premades are the problem" didn't give you the attention you hoped for, but a lot of pushback. Now you switched to a more popular position, but the arguments you put forward are all the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The fact you state categorically why my position has changed - something you cannot possibly know - is symptomatic of your unshakeable (and misplaced) confidence that you are infallible.

---

100% pure, distilled projection. Your inability to understand that others can actually understand you is just that, your inability. "Understanding a position" and "having that position" aren't the same thing. You come into threads to unload your inane takes, then announce that you are out after getting called out for those inane takes, and then come back and pretending it's not justified to call you dishonest and attention seeking. Words have meaning, and just like Gurgeh, you struggle with the basics. Maybe the JHS debate organizers (that you are so fond of, as if junior high school level of debate is something an adult should be proud of, but that's what "peaking in high school" gets you I guess) can direct you to some beginner course or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

Of course tiers are cleared, albeit not often, completely blind. They have to be for guides to even be made.

---

And if you know that, why are you arguing as if "follow the guide" is somehow draconically enforced onto everyone who engages in high end content in this community? Again, what exactly are you even arguing? Do you even understand your own position? Guides are nothing but a compendium of strategies to solve boss mechanics. When mechanics can be solved in different ways, the different strategies usually get names to make identifying them easier. Every group and individual is free to use whatever strategy they prefer when it comes to solving a given mechanic. The only behavior not acceptable, is being dishonest about it, i.e. joining a group which advertised a certain strategy and then not following it, or advertising one and expecting others to do something different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

Oh, is me repeating other people's experience offending you for some reason as far as my quoted phrases?

---

No, you being dishonest is offending me. You generalizing tens of thousands of people as some kind of intolerant monsters that spend all their day wishing nothing but harm on you is offending me. Because it's indicative of an incredibly selfish and self-centered mind. You are the Warrior of Light and center of the universe only within the story. In fact, it's not even you, but your avatar. Quite frankly, some people seem to self identify so hard with their character, the whole notion that they aren't the main character of everyone else seems to be lost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

So, because your experience isn't everyone else's experience, anyone who's had a different experience to you has "never stepped foot in any such groups, ever"?

---

Stop hiding behind other people's experience. Are you, or are you not engaging in high end combat duties? Are you, or are you not engaging with groups in duty finder? Because a) people in party finder will be very careful about what they say, because anything ingame can get one banned and b) participation in toxic and rude statics isn't mandatory. Again, this whole topic has very little to do with the game itself, and mainly reveals the inadequacies when it comes to basic social behavior in a lot of posters here. Maybe a little less time ingame and in these forums, and a little more time building some basic social skills in person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

Nor did I ever claim every single person who ever raids says things like that.

---

"But I didn't say it that way" ... yes yes, heard it before, will hear it again, always the same drivel. Words have meaning, you cannot not communicate. People understand dog whistles and metaphors and similes and all the other rhetorical devices that make up a language. If you can't comprehend all the information that your own posts convey, that is just your personal shortcoming. You write stuff like "It's not the content locking them out though. It's other members of the community.", but you are not "overgeneralizing", somehow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilapop

If you're going to reply (days later, might I add), at least do so in good faith without looking for reasons to either be offended or refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't line up with your own personal experience. Thankfully, not everyone is AllenThyl.

---

I already acknowledged that some groups are acceptable of very crude behavior. Did you even read that, or did you not understand what this phrase means? I said it before, this forum has too many ELI5 posters. But that doesn't really translate into party finder groups, because party chat is monitored by SE and writing such things get people banned (which is why more often than not people just leave groups without any comment). Further, and we come back to the whole "have none of you ever done any group activity in any way?", participation in toxic statics is also not mandatory. Find another group with good behavior or make your own. At some point, this whole "everyone is mean" is just weaponized incompetence. Self-soothing lies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

bizarre ranting

---

Nobody cares what you think about me or anyone else. How about you take a day off from these attempted character assassinations?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Except, there is no way to bridge this gap, because at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual's willingness to improve in the first place. Take Red Choctober in Bozja. Not respecting the mechanics there will get one (very likely) killed. It only has 3 repeating mechanics, enrage is basically when the CE timer runs out. And yet this fight keeps wiping instances regularly. Because the community in general, instead of learning how to solve the mechanics, simply views "getting rezzed through the fight" as acceptable mode of operation. The EX fights putting a stop to such behavior by wiping raids is the only way to actually get people to get their act together, by providing this hard wall. "This far, no further, unless you actually start properly doing the mechanics and learn some basic rotation of your job".

I mean, funnily enough, the normal mode encounters are often very much the learning opportunity that can serve as preparation for the higher difficulty one. For example, Ramuh (Hard) uses all the same mechanics as extreme, they just don't hit as hard. Nidhogg in the dungeon iteration now uses "Hot Wings" and "Blazing Tail" as well as the eyes. Lots of mechanics are used in normal, which one could actually sit down and learn. But since these encounters can be "yolo'd", with no hard requirement to correctly solve them, that's what's being done. I've said it before, the game offers learning opportunities left and right, they are simply wasted either actively or passively.

---

There absolutely is a way to bridge this gap and that is by literally just introducing content that falls between normal and ex trial difficulty. The intent of this "hard wall" as you say is irrelevant to the actual things happening in game right now: a huge drop off in players. There is a very good reason most games do not do difficulty in this manner, players will not engage with the content if the spike in difficulty is too high. Blaming the community for not wanting to jump from super easy normal content to difficult ex trials is not the way to go about it.

To be fair, once I get my series reward, I was slacking on because it looks terrible, but it's Fomo. Yay, Fomo! I'm done for a while since there's literally nothing for me to do. Speak with your wallet folks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Probably worth noting that a lot of the job changes we've seen, both on the onset of the expansion and as recently as 7.1, might have been done precisely because Square-Enix thought those jobs would struggle with Chaotic otherwise by whatever measure they were using.

Which creates this situation where as fights get harder, Square-Enix thinks jobs have to get easier and/or homogenized otherwise certain jobs would be an issue to bring along. Conversely, if jobs started becoming more demanding, Square-Enix would likely start toning fights back down because they seem adamantly opposed to making fights *and* jobs difficult simultaneously.

---

I think this is a key point, although I'm not sure which is the chicken and which the egg.

With job simplification and homogenization, the challenge of a fight has to get pushed almost entirely to the mechanics of the fight. And in FF14 this has increasingly become a question of standing on the correct pixel. This is definitely challenging, and I admire the skill of those who can learn the dance steps. But to me it isn't remotely interesting.

We have six different aspects of aether. Positionals can be interesting (kinda). Striking/slashing/etc could be differentiated. Bosses could have (time varying) vuln ups/downs to the different types of damage. Add RNG to the mix, you have a reactive fight, not a scripted dance.

To be the most casual player is just to go through the MSQ, get enough ilvl for the next patch's dungeon, then unsub until next big patch which is usually 4+ months away. Stuff like normal raids and alliance raids and the many optional trials and their difficulties are just that, optional.

Like Yuweyawata Field Station from 7.1 is just 690 ilvl minimun. You get most of that requirement done from the artifact armor and weapons which are each 690, leaving only the accessories. From there you just need some tomestones to get accessories, and maybe also getting a bit lucky on drops from 1 or more runs of Alexandria. And then with prep for 7.2, you just farm Field Station to get a full set of gear and have enough tomestones to buy a single tomestone ring of ilvl 705 or better. Going on and on ad nauseum with each patch. Repeating the prepping process of whatever the MSQ gives you for gear and some tomestones with 8.0 or 9.0 or other such expansions. Only sticking around to complete the X.55 patch if you did X.5 content.

Basically treating the game casually as more a movie with some gameplay attached to it.

EDIT: Plus such a casual way of playing the game works well if you want to boycott it for other reasons. Maybe the reason is something about vieras or hrothgars or relic weapons or healing or lack of eureka-esque content or something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buttobi

Difficulty in games needs to be gradual. Ex trials are just a huge spike in difficulty from the next hardest thing (raids, dungeons, trials). Now I am not saying make ex trials easier, but the devs have now spent too many years not filling this gap between these 2 types of content

---

What could the solve actually be, though?

What makes hard content hard is that you have to play correctly--you must execute the mechanics correctly, and perform your damage rotation and mitigations correctly. Easy content is easy because this is not generally true. It's uncommon to wipe in things like dungeons and trials, and if you do have deaths the content is so undertuned that tanks can solo this kind of content.

Ultimates are harder than savage which are harder than extreme trials only insofar as the mechanics on the harder end are more difficult to think about and do and the damage checks and mit checks are tighter, but that's largely it, the formula is really much the same.

As such, there's nessisarily got to be some point where little Timmy can't just stand in every mechanic and die. There will be content where tanking the floor doesn't matter, and there will be content where it does matter. (Perhaps it surprised people that the chaotic raid didn't really let you carry dead weight at all due to key body check moments, putting it on the "hard" side of the fence for example).

There are no half-measues. You can't half-die and half-wipe. There will always be some point where being totally lost starts to chain-wipe the group, prior to which death is irrelevant. This will always be seen as the big jump up in difficulty, no?

Give me less duties that require Party Finder and I will be happier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Words have meaning, and just like Gurgeh, you struggle with the basics. Maybe the JHS debate organizers (that you are so fond of, as if junior high school level of debate is something an adult should be proud of, but that's what "peaking in high school" gets you I guess) can direct you to some beginner course or something.

---

Still ploughing on with that big "first holidays home since I started college" energy, I see.