New summoner is unacceptable

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

While I still enjoy the rework, I will agree that Ruin 4 seems rather tacked on in its current implementation. Also, Bahamut and Phoenix could use further distinction in their function.

For example, allow the player to decide between summoning Bahamut or Phoenix. Have summon Bahamut provide 4 stacks of further ruin, and give Phoenix abilities cast-times with some additional benefit to promote its use.

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The problem with this is that players would math out which does the most damage, and then exclusively use that summon.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

While I still enjoy the rework, I will agree that Ruin 4 seems rather tacked on in its current implementation. Also, Bahamut and Phoenix could use further distinction in their function.

For example, allow the player to decide between summoning Bahamut or Phoenix. Have summon Bahamut provide 4 stacks of further ruin, and give Phoenix abilities cast-times with some additional benefit to promote its use.

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I've seen someone propose that resurrection be retooled as something only available in Firebird trance. Which I think has some potential.

Make Firebird even more support-oriented (or at least have more support options), and keep Dreadwyrm just all-out damage burst.

I'm not sure how I feel about limiting rez access to a certain phase when SMN now seems locked into phases more than any other DPS job (I think?), but given that DPS really shouldn't be required to rez anyway it might be a fair compromise to just give them the narrow *potential* to be clutch.

Also, my OCD brain thinks the summons are perfect as they are. I don't need to summon weirdly interpreted Hindu gods (Shiva and Ramuh); the fact that SMN is pretty much limited to mythical beasts feels like a huge refinement of the job. I think given the direction it has taken as a "gemomancer" the only thing I think it wants at level 100 would be a big finisher in Diamond Dust. No summoning of Shiva required--because the SMN themselves is channeling as a nod to Ysayle.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I've seen someone propose that resurrection be retooled as something only available in Firebird trance. Which I think has some potential.

Make Firebird even more support-oriented (or at least have more support options), and keep Dreadwyrm just all-out damage burst.

I'm not sure how I feel about limiting rez access to a certain phase when SMN now seems locked into phases more than any other DPS job (I think?), but given that DPS really shouldn't be required to rez anyway it might be a fair compromise to just give them the narrow *potential* to be clutch.

Also, my OCD brain thinks the summons are perfect as they are. I don't need to summon weirdly interpreted Hindu gods (Shiva and Ramuh); the fact that SMN is pretty much limited to mythical beasts feels like a huge refinement of the job. I think given the direction it has taken as a "gemomancer" the only thing I think it wants at level 100 would be a big finisher in Diamond Dust. No summoning of Shiva required--because the SMN themselves is channeling as a nod to Ysayle.

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Kind of this, in regards to the two major summons. I really don't have an issue with swapping between the two, in particular because they're both so cool. Although I do especially love summoning Phoenix, that cry every time in manifests is just... yes. With the rework I feel like I can summon both of them more often whenever I feel like it instead of during really specific points.

I like it. I'm very happy with it. I hope they don't listen to you.

Having played Summoner much more for the past day, and being able to finally log in with some reliability, I can say I am really happy with it. I am sure plenty of people are going to talk down to me about how simple it is but I feel busy enough that I'm not bored. There is a little down time in the rotation but that can easily be filled in later, although it should have been filled in now. Ruin IV is a little awkward but I find it useful as a AOE cast when moving with the tank for trash pulls, or to fill in that few seconds when your trance isn't ready but you've burned through your other summons. My major complaints with it are only cosmetic really, such as having no ice/water element but having two fire aspect summons in Ifrit and Phoenix. Also I don't know why SE insists on making casters enter melee range for abilities but I am really not a fan, all healers save one have PBAOE spells and now SMN has a PBAOE with Ifrit at 86.

Been leveling it up a bit on the side with fates and oh buddy staying awake is difficult.

I like it honestly.

Anyone have any idea how much of new Summoner's damage is tied into upgrades and additions between 80 and 90? Multi-target damage seems fairly okay, but single target seems to be lacking a bit. Particularly compared to say, Red Mage. Am I just imagining things, or does Summoner's single target feel kind of lacking? I'm only level 81 right now since I'm still slogging through post-ShB MSQ content. Is Ruin Mastery IV, Elemental Mastery, and Enkindle going to make that much of a difference in damage over a Red Mage who's also at the 80 range?

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Originally Posted by Memoranda

Anyone have any idea how much of new Summoner's damage is tied into upgrades and additions between 80 and 90? Multi-target damage seems fairly okay, but single target seems to be lacking a bit. Particularly compared to say, Red Mage. Am I just imagining things, or does Summoner's single target feel kind of lacking? I'm only level 81 right now since I'm still slogging through post-ShB MSQ content. Is Ruin Mastery IV, Elemental Mastery, and Enkindle going to make that much of a difference in damage over a Red Mage who's also at the 80 range?

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I have only run dungeons with SMN so I can't say I notice much about single target but it certainly seems to me that AOE is incredible. Packs of mobs are melting down faster than I remember before Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I have only run dungeons with SMN so I can't say I notice much about single target but it certainly seems to me that AOE is incredible. Packs of mobs are melting down faster than I remember before Endwalker.

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Aye, because new Summoner simply has a lot of AoE spells now. All of our Summons now have AoE, we have enhanced Tri-disaster AoE... it is pretty nuts. I'm more or less afraid of new SMN only being an AoE-bot now. It feels like its single target is meh, and if its actually lagging behind why bring SMN when RDM and BLM exist? Undoubtedly we're just going to have to wait for the dust to settle to see what's what, but wanted to know if anyone else had any opinions on the matter.

I like new summoner. My main complaint is you barely spend any time casting abilities, it feels much more like a bard than a magic user. Only other complaint is I feel you cycle between summons much too quickly, that it's hard to feel like you're really experiencing the power of Garuda or ifrit or titan and the unique ways each plays for too long compared to bahamut and Phoenix.

Otherwise loving it, though I'm only 87

How is this even still a summoner, I feel like the elemental theme is too dominant now. Feels like I’m playing a shaman in WoW, blasting elemental spells and the pet is basically only flavor.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

How is this even still a summoner, I feel like the elemental theme is too dominant now. Feels like I’m playing a shaman in WoW, blasting elemental spells and the pet is basically only flavor.

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Feels more like a SMN now than it ever has prior.

I live and breath my Summoner and this change has been long overdue, imo. Is it an adjustment? Absolutely. Am I somewhat change resistant? A touch but this change is for the better. Button bloat does not equal "meaty" or "complex" and, frankly, the rotation of the old summoner wasn't all that "optimized" either. It was a tad clunky even. Summoner was my main go-to class and I was good at it. I am not saying there isn't room for improvement on this new summoner layout because there is but I'm just not experiencing the amount of angst over the changes that some are. I expect there will be further fine tuning of the class because that's what always happens so I'll just roll with it and see how it all plays out over time. For now however, I'm not unhappy with the new summoner and am even a bit pleased to not have a bunch of craptastic stuff that does little but in order to even TRY to get my damage up I have to use them spells.

Love summoner as well. Got it to 90. I do wish our elemental primals stayed out a bit longer like bahamut and Phoenix but hey I’ll take what I can get. Also, I been wanting Alexander Demi for a very long time but I feel we will never get him bwcause he is the time element and we know how the dev teams feels about time related abilities. They don’t want us messing up others rotations.

I was sad but then I saw Hydaelyn and was like Alexander who? I hope she becomes our next Demi summon along with Shiva, Ramuh and Leviathan as the added new elementals.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

How is this even still a summoner, I feel like the elemental theme is too dominant now. Feels like I’m playing a shaman in WoW, blasting elemental spells and the pet is basically only flavor.

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Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but hasn't FF Summoners always felt like an Elememtalist but with Summons? You called upon Shiva for ice, Ifrit for fire, etc. Obviously an MMO can't just have a job where you Summon pets and let them do literally everything, so when new Summoner summons the elementals they bestow upon us some of their power for our spells. To the best of my knowledge Summoner has never had damage over time spells in their toolkits, and those DoTs I hated because it never felt like I was really playing a Summoner. If y'all want DoTs, ask them to introduce Green Mage or something.

The fact that the rotation is way easier is just icing on the cake. Many DPS jobs feel like they're only getting more complex these days, and I welcome not having to default to Red Mage if I want to play a job that doesn't require planning everything out ten abilities in advance based upon whatever the boss is doing.

I've just started to play summoner and to be honest, I don't hate it. People wanted it to be more easy and that's exactly what you got.

Think of it this way; you're just not used to how it is. We went from an overcomplicated rotation to a simplistic one. Obviously it's going to take some time getting used to.. But I don't see why people think it's bad, I still enjoy it and think they did a great job.

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Originally Posted by Memoranda

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but hasn't FF Summoners always felt like an Elememtalist but with Summons? You called upon Shiva for ice, Ifrit for fire, etc. Obviously an MMO can't just have a job where you Summon pets and let them do literally everything, so when new Summoner summons the elementals they bestow upon us some of their power for our spells. To the best of my knowledge Summoner has never had damage over time spells in their toolkits, and those DoTs I hated because it never felt like I was really playing a Summoner. If y'all want DoTs, ask them to introduce Green Mage or something.

The fact that the rotation is way easier is just icing on the cake. Many DPS jobs feel like they're only getting more complex these days, and I welcome not having to default to Red Mage if I want to play a job that doesn't require planning everything out ten abilities in advance based upon whatever the boss is doing.

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Your comment is overall wrong.

Summoners don't feel like elementalist, first of all because summons are something you don't spam (unlike new SMN). Secondly, because summoners have their own capabilities outside of summons. Yuna and Garnet are specialized in white magic for example, Rydia (the first "true" FF summoner) in black magic instead, and as such she could use damage over time spells.

Lastly, DPS jobs are objectively getting easier.

The new summoner is good. I really enjoy and a lot of other players enjoy it.

Just started playing the new Summoner today and it feels so great. I feel so much more powerful than I did with the previous iterations and it actually feels like a real FF Summoner! I'm still only at lvl 80, but I'm looking forward to seeing what more it can do on the road to lvl 90. :)

Don't stress too much kupo because the sun still shines. A giant advanced chat with avatars kupo.

<3 kupo

I’m currently at level 89 and from the dungeons etc I’ve done as Summoner I found it way more fun than it was before. And I genuinely enjoyed DoT Summoner too. But personally I feel like this one feels closer to a ‘traditional ff style summoner’ than the ‘ffxiv unique edition summoner’ we had before.

If I had one criticism I would like it if they separated Summon Bahamut/Phoenix. I know everyone hates the idea of extra buttons, but because you can’t control when you summon Phoenix, the really useful healing effects from Everlasting Flight and Rekindle end up getting wasted, and then when you desperately need them you’re stuck with Bahamut lol. The conditions to summon them are fine, it’s just being locked into one or the other that’s the problem, especially when they both function quite differently (one is more focused on big aoe attacks, one is focused more on passive healing / regens)

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Originally Posted by rewd

Your comment is overall wrong.

Summoners don't feel like elementalist, first of all because summons are something you don't spam (unlike new SMN). Secondly, because summoners have their own capabilities outside of summons. Yuna and Garnet are specialized in white magic for example, Rydia (the first "true" FF summoner) in black magic instead, and as such she could use damage over time spells.

Lastly, DPS jobs are objectively getting easier.

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I wouldn't put much stock in the summoner had other mechanics concept though. Summoner has been paired with all jobs, no jobs, black mage, white mage, pure summoner (yes there have been "I only summon summoners"), etc.

The only important part of all of that is that it summons cool things, otherwise the mechanics have literally been all over the place. Including both pet and not pet like concepts.

I mean people can have a favorite variations of summoner (classic is more one off, meanwhile recent summons are generally more pet based). But to say summoner needs DoTs or need black magic, or whatever else, I think is pretty much, nay not pretty much is actually, proven untrue by FF itself. Summoner / summons have been associated with everything, with the only consistent element being they're pretty, and pretty freaking cool. lol.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I’m currently at level 89 and from the dungeons etc I’ve done as Summoner I found it way more fun than it was before. And I genuinely enjoyed DoT Summoner too. But personally I feel like this one feels closer to a ‘traditional ff style summoner’ than the ‘ffxiv unique edition summoner’ we had before.

If I had one criticism I would like it if they separated Summon Bahamut/Phoenix. I know everyone hates the idea of extra buttons, but because you can’t control when you summon Phoenix, the really useful healing effects from Everlasting Flight and Rekindle end up getting wasted, and then when you desperately need them you’re stuck with Bahamut lol. The conditions to summon them are fine, it’s just being locked into one or the other that’s the problem, especially when they both function quite differently (one is more focused on big aoe attacks, one is focused more on passive healing / regens)

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May I suggest that if they do that then they ensure the damage of the two is similar, at least on single target (for boss reasons), but that each one provides a different QoL. Phoenix may be healing, then maybe Bahamut is CC / mp regen? Not sure. I just really feel if you did that then people are going to basically say goodbye to one of the summons for the vast majority of situations. Maybe if they added an extra layer of support to phoenix so it was even better in "oh lord" situations? Like if you use phoenix your revive becomes instant cast, free, and heals them after being revived?

Though some people have commented they wish phoenix was better damage anyways, certainly if the rotation is forced as it is currently it might be nice to have phoenix just be an improvement (though that does take away from Bahamut's grand legacy). I'm not sure... I just hear an alarm bell at adding freedom on that without some mechanic. Like if you let people choose and make no changes otherwise it'll be Paladin's clemency except maybe slightly worse since it's a HoT and one decent cure, meanwhile if Paladin had to clemency they'd at least get to spam it out and really help the team (which is why one of my suggestions is to boost the support a lot if it is to be relegated to the clemency life).

Probably a mistake to wait almost 500 posts into a huge thread to write a novel about it, but I do love Summoner and this seems like the place everyone is congregating.

I've played all the games up to XIV in the series and summoning magic was always one of my favorites. I suffered through it in XI, and I've played it primarily in XIV since it was added in 2.0. There's not much that would convince me to leave the job when I like the concept so much, but I never really liked the way it played as a "poison mage" in XIV. Again, I still played it primarily because it's a Summoner, but as many people have pointed out in this thread and others over the years, it's really obvious they just reskinned WoW's warlock class with FF names.

When I first saw the changes I knew the people who have played it as it was, with its really technical rotations and proneness to massive failure on a mistake, would not enjoy how simple it was going to be. But I also knew I was going to love it more because it finally was going to let me play the job closer to the summoning magic in games I grew up with from FFIII to IX. I don't really care about complexity at all - I can do it, I did fine with the intricacies of 4.x SMN - but I don't have any particular interest in it being that way. And I was totally right, I love the new Summoner, and it's really fun cycling through the different types of spells that each summon gives alongside their big flashy summoning.

That said, there are a lot of little things that annoy me, pretty much all of them already having been mentioned in this thread. Carbuncle just sitting there staring at you is weird; why is he even there if he only powers two abilities? I'm glad to see the focus on DoTs gone and replaced with a focus on summoning magic, so why is Ruin and the Aetherflow stuff all still there? And biggest of all, I felt like this big overhaul was their chance to give us more or different summons but it's still just Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda like it's always been. I don't think we need to have every primal that's in the game, but it would have been nice to see at least one more of the elemental summons instead of zero. It's also a bit unfortunate that all of this new stuff comes at 86 and 90 - before 86 the gemstone summons barely feel different from each other, and before 90 they don't have their full looks and attacks resulting in the same weird disconnect as the previous incarnation - why can we summon big full Phoenix and Bahamut before we can handle an equivalent Ifrit?

I feel like they could have created some pretty easy solutions to multiples of these problems at a time. For instance, keep Carbuncle as our constant companion but make it so that rather than being replaced by the others while they're out, all the Aetherflow stuff is actually being done by Carbuncle, making Aetherflow more thematic, Carbuncle less pointless, and still giving SMN some buttons to press during cooldowns. Or go the opposite direction and get rid of Carbuncle and Aetherflow/Ruin, and just make both spells and abilities all change to corresponding elements rather than just spells. And since pretty much every gemstone summon spell other than maybe Slipstream is just for flavor and a different feel rather than a necessary part of a rotation to keep up, put the other half of the elemental summons as gemstones following the other trance - after Bahamut get Ifrit/Titan/Garuda, and after Phoenix get Ramuh/Leviathan/Shiva (or redistribute them to match light/dark aspects).

Overall, despite all these things I think they could have gone even further with, I'm really happy to finally feel like a Summoner instead of a Warlock. And I know it sounds rude, but for the people who loved the complexity or difficulty of execution rather than because it's a Summoner in a Final Fantasy game, there's a ton of other jobs to pick from that are tough to get right but rewarding when you do, like Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

I feel like they could have created some pretty easy solutions to multiples of these problems at a time. For instance, keep Carbuncle as our constant companion but make it so that rather than being replaced by the others while they're out, all the Aetherflow stuff is actually being done by Carbuncle, making Aetherflow more thematic, Carbuncle less pointless, and still giving SMN some buttons to press during cooldowns..

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Yes to this^

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Or go the opposite direction and get rid of Carbuncle and Aetherflow/Ruin, and just make both spells and abilities all change to corresponding elements rather than just spells.

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Never to this ^



And I've said this many many times before. Our problems aren't simple vs complex, hard vs easy, arcanist vs smn, dots vs direct damage, busy rotation vs chill, casts vs instants, my job fantasy vs your job fantasy, or anything like that. I'm 100% sure the complaints based on those features are symptoms, not the disease itself. And disagreements are caused by how we as individuals experience gameplay differently (numbers=feel vs mechanics=feel vs visuals=feel, being the most important for different people in different ratios)


What my problem is, is that at level 90, SMN feels like a level 90 CLASS, not a job (yes even with astral flow). It sure has buttons, but its buttons don't really do anything outside of the one button press. This job's EVERYTHING is uptime and buff alignment, which is just the basics of e-ver-y combat job. Summons and their rites are no different than a melee's 123 combo. Just "press X button to make the next button worth pressing", and that's ALL we have. Our actions aren't building towards anything, they're not augmenting anything it's just press button to do damage, make sure the buff is on you when your buttons are doing the most damage. There is literally no empowerment in the rotation, and that's what's causing it to feel underwhelming to us mechanics=feel oriented players. Anyone who is used to spreadsheeting out their rotation and potencies, or following rotations made by those players likely won't get that feeling, because they're not used to paying attention to those interactions (and those focused on visuals are just happy to see pretty colors)



One day, when I have the energy, I'll do a like detailed analysis on my experience with the new job, but currently I am mush brained @@,
But I'm firmly, FIRMLY, of the belief that carbuncle should ABSOLUTELY stay out permanently (maybe can go away with the demis) and provide some interactive mechanic that uses our gem summons to empower our demi summons.
It'll solve two problems with one feature (the loss of a pet job identity, and the lack of interactivity in our kit, which can cause the feeling that the job is too easy/simple.)

(every other complaint I have is about numbers (garuda and phoenix being weak), about visual clutter (let us glamour our big summons so that my raidgroup can SEE, and also because carbuncles are good), and about jank (Let the leveling summons attack from range with an aoe centered on the target like the final summons, and figure out how to let carbuncle cast while moving to stop ghosting))

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Originally Posted by Doc_Seraph

Don't stress too much kupo because the sun still shines. A giant advanced chat with avatars kupo.

<3 kupo

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Nah, I'm going keep trashing on this terrible rework

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Originally Posted by rewd

Your comment is overall wrong.

Summoners don't feel like elementalist, first of all because summons are something you don't spam (unlike new SMN). Secondly, because summoners have their own capabilities outside of summons. Yuna and Garnet are specialized in white magic for example, Rydia (the first "true" FF summoner) in black magic instead, and as such she could use damage over time spells.

Lastly, DPS jobs are objectively getting easier.

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I hate when people want a class to be complicated or hard to play. That shit reminds me of the garbage from WoW. Where EVERYONE whined when a class got a redesign. NOT EVERY class (job) needs to be all complicated and difficult to play. And where is the rule book that says a summon needs to be a long cast to call something forth ?? I'm sorry. But I don't want jobs to be shitty and unfun and boring like WoW classes. FFXIV has fun jobs, I would like for them to stay that way.

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Originally Posted by Darksummoner

I hate when people want a class to be complicated or hard to play. That shit reminds me of the garbage from WoW. Where EVERYONE whined when a class got a redesign. NOT EVERY class (job) needs to be all complicated and difficult to play. And where is the rule book that says a summon needs to be a long cast to call something forth ?? I'm sorry. But I don't want jobs to be shitty and unfun and boring like WoW classes. FFXIV has fun jobs, I would like for them to stay that way.

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Sure not every class needs to be complex. But it still stings to have one of the few that WAS complex be dumbed down to possibly the simplest in the game. Just like not every class needs to be complex, not every class needs to be simple and easy. And yet FF14 has been trending to making ALL of them simple and easy.

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Originally Posted by Roda

(every other complaint I have is about numbers (garuda and phoenix being weak), about visual clutter (let us glamour our big summons so that my raidgroup can SEE, and also because carbuncles are good), and about jank (Let the leveling summons attack from range with an aoe centered on the target like the final summons, and figure out how to let carbuncle cast while moving to stop ghosting))

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I definitely agree there should an option for players to hide or choose the size of other people's summons (local option of course lol).

I was making a case for it like Diablo 3 where other people's minions are slightly transparent so you can see through the zoo-builds. Size, transparency, etc, that could be really valuable options for FFXIV too.

Already I hide most other players spell effects so I can see what I'm doing without having to squint through the flashing and pulses with the power of a thousand suns. Yet just because I turn down other people's effects cause they're distracting from my own stuff doesn't mean I want my own stuff to be any less flashy lol. So I think these options are very valuable in allowing the insane FF effects without making it an unplayable MMO.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I definitely agree there should an option for players to hide or choose the size of other people's summons (local option of course lol).

I was making a case for it like Diablo 3 where other people's minions are slightly transparent so you can see through the zoo-builds. Size, transparency, etc, that could be really valuable options for FFXIV too.

Already I hide most other players spell effects so I can see what I'm doing without having to squint through the flashing and pulses with the power of a thousand suns. Yet just because I turn down other people's effects cause they're distracting from my own stuff doesn't mean I want my own stuff to be any less flashy lol. So I think these options are very valuable in allowing the insane FF effects without making it an unplayable MMO.

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There is

/petsize "all" "small"

This will make everyone elses pets, including your own if you have them appear small. This is handled on a personal level. The size of someones summons on your screen is yours to change, they cant affect it. I actually have a hello macro when i join a dungeon to give out that command to people

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Sure not every class needs to be complex. But it still stings to have one of the few that WAS complex be dumbed down to possibly the simplest in the game. Just like not every class needs to be complex, not every class needs to be simple and easy. And yet FF14 has been trending to making ALL of them simple and easy.

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Sad part is at least the simple and complete classes offer more feedback regarding Gameplay than this mess.
The fact that the former "simple" and "newbie friendly" caster class somehow has gotten more complex and actually offers good feedback in terms of it's gameplay... compared to this ""successful rework"" that just offers no signal if you're even doing something well... Yeah, no. That ain't right.

You're just carelessly flinging around spells and if you make it have healing potencies, you basically have a healer.
Like you can just ignore all your gemstones and go straight to the Demi after spamming ruin 3, like for real? You legit can't mess up any mechanic that the job possesses because it has absolutely no mechanics.
I ain't asking for much, I'm asking for a job to be complete and it's gameplay to actually convey that you're doing something right.
The bold part being VERY important.

Though I feel like I'm talking to a wall because many people harp on the fact "OH BUT NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE COMPLEX" or this "BUT IT ISN'T WOW WARLOCK ANYMORE". Guys, people have legitimately expressed how or why it's really not a good rework and it's not because of those reasons that keep being repeated. Also, if we bring in the excuse X did it first, then nothing should be allowed to be created as almost every possibility has been used in games already.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

There is

/petsize "all" "small"

This will make everyone elses pets, including your own if you have them appear small. This is handled on a personal level. The size of someones summons on your screen is yours to change, they cant affect it. I actually have a hello macro when i join a dungeon to give out that command to people

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But, and I haven't tried this so please educate me otherwise, I can't make your small and mine normal / large?

They need to add one more "others". I don't want mine small, just other people's lol.

https://i.imgur.com/cXteW5A.png

At least that is what I was trying to get at with the whole spell effect comment. You can choose to have your spell effects full, but not other people's.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Sure not every class needs to be complex. But it still stings to have one of the few that WAS complex be dumbed down to possibly the simplest in the game. Just like not every class needs to be complex, not every class needs to be simple and easy. And yet FF14 has been trending to making ALL of them simple and easy.

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Been thinking this for a while now but, this is one of the things WoW style talent rows(not the old trees) is supposed to address. For mage, Incanter's flow was a passive that went from 5% dmg buff scaling up to 20% then scaling back down to 5%. You had no control over it so you could mostly ignore it. You could try to line up cds at the 20% but it ended up evening out anyway. rune of power on the other hand had a huge 40% spell dmg buff but you had to cast it, stand in it, and it only lasted like 8 seconds or something. Rune was the better dps option if you could handle it but flow was still solid as an easier option. Mirror image sucked though so hopefully SE can avoid stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

I feel like a broken record when I have to keep saying this. BUT IT WILL NOT BE BUILT OFF OF. People constantly said the same shit about ShB MCH, ShB DRK, and Healers since SB, but if anything they've only taken away or barely changed anything from these classes rather than built off of them.

WHAT YOU SEE NOW IS WHAT YOU'RE STUCK WITH, FOR GOOD. Unless there's a masssive shift in dev philosophy by the FFXIV team or the JP side throws massive shitfit on par with the male viera stuff. It's not a base to be built off of, it's the full damn job and the "mch" of casters.

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GOOD IM GLAD I'M STUCK WITH THIS, PRE EW SUMMONER WAS A CONVOLUTED MESS.

The new raids aren't even out yet and I'm already burned out with the job, it feels like a level 50 job at 90; if I wanted to play Physical Ranged I would've picked Bard.
Just play BLM (if going double caster or your static is fine with losing a raise) which is perfect this expansion, I don't know how but SE managed to improve it even more.
No fight is gonna make SMN entertaining or challenging.
Flashy job and nothing else

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Originally Posted by Shougun

But, and I haven't tried this so please educate me otherwise, I can't make your small and mine normal / large?

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AHHH i understand now. Yeah it is problematic. They really should just have it as a toggle right below battle effects in the menu as most wont dig for console commands

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Originally Posted by Edewen

AHHH i understand now. Yeah it is problematic. They really should just have it as a toggle right below battle effects in the menu as most wont dig for console commands

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No problem, its better to be helpful anyways- which you were. I appreciate it :)

Definitely agree console commands is not the most ideal way to do settings lol.

People in this thread are very salty.

I've played since ARR, each incarnation of summoner was better than the last. We've gotten more emphasis on summoning and less emphasis on dots. This was the natural evolution of SMN, and i've enjoyed leveling it immensely. ARR SMN was a hot mess.

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Originally Posted by Memoranda

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but hasn't FF Summoners always felt like an Elememtalist but with Summons? You called upon Shiva for ice, Ifrit for fire, etc. Obviously an MMO can't just have a job where you Summon pets and let them do literally everything, so when new Summoner summons the elementals they bestow upon us some of their power for our spells. To the best of my knowledge Summoner has never had damage over time spells in their toolkits, and those DoTs I hated because it never felt like I was really playing a Summoner. If y'all want DoTs, ask them to introduce Green Mage or something.

The fact that the rotation is way easier is just icing on the cake. Many DPS jobs feel like they're only getting more complex these days, and I welcome not having to default to Red Mage if I want to play a job that doesn't require planning everything out ten abilities in advance based upon whatever the boss is doing.

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Final Fantasy XI would like a word with you. When you summon avatars, you can use them to heal the party, cast buffs, enfeebles, and attack enemies with strong physical or magical damage. Ramuh can stun all enemies in range. Garuda can cast large party heals. Ifrit grants attack boosts. Diabolos grants an AOE MP restore over time. So yeah, FFXI summoner is the best iteration of summoner the franchise has ever had, with the summoner controlling the avatar's actions and the avatar dealing all of the damage.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Final Fantasy XI would like a word with you. When you summon avatars, you can use them to heal the party, cast buffs, enfeebles, and attack enemies with strong physical or magical damage. Ramuh can stun all enemies in range. Garuda can cast large party heals. Ifrit grants attack boosts. Diabolos grants an AOE MP restore over time. So yeah, FFXI summoner is the best iteration of summoner the franchise has ever had, with the summoner controlling the avatar's actions and the avatar dealing all of the damage.

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FFXI, imo, is a FFT SMN with pet mechanics. Which tbh is pretty neat. Due to how FFXIV is balanced a lot of the choice probably couldn't fit, but even now I wish our SMN had more summons. It would be neat to stuff like shiva, ramuh, odin, alexander, etc. FFXI is certainly a special sort of beast when it comes to balance (or lack there of lol).

At level 90 it is pretty epic spectacle though, so I'm not saying it out of pure complaint. Just like that far off dream that would be neat if they could ignite somehow. Maybe after every X gem primals (ifrit, titan, garuda) you temporarily unlock Shiva, Levi, and Ramuh and have to pick one of them. Disrupting the rotation into something like Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Levi, Titan, Garuda, Ifrit, Ramuh, etc, etc. I'm not sure. It's hard to be so tight with balance and streamlined properly for mechanics that FFXIV needs and also offer a bunch of unique options....