And? It is their choice 100% whether they have friends there or not. Also, frankly, if someone doesn't want to PvP and they join a PvP server just to take up PvPer's housing? .. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
Open World PvP
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07-04-2021, 12:30 AMSturmChurro
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07-04-2021, 12:30 AMEldevern
The really funny thing is since Y-P talk about new "Small Scale PVP" people translate... "Open World PVP".
That's... kind of a weird word twist especially when Y-P also add "more casually" in his own words + no "role lock" + "only a few fraction of players do PVP". And it was a reply after a question about... Onsal Hakair.
I make my bet that some people will be... really disappointed. -
07-04-2021, 12:36 AMlinayarUh, no, lol, it's their friends' choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
When there is shortage, it's a bad idea to segregate availability by locking some inside PvP server.Quote:
Also, frankly, if someone doesn't want to PvP and they join a PvP server just to take up PvPer's housing? .. :mad:
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07-04-2021, 12:44 AMSturmChurroThere are quite a few games my friends enjoy, that I don't enjoy. You know what I do? I don't play with them. It's okay! Those games aren't for me, just like PvP might not be for some players!Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
They aren't "locked" on a PvP server, there are DOZENS of other worlds players can join, plus there would be house openings with the players transferring to the PvP world, not to mention Oceania being added. For that matter, it's very rude if there would be players who have no interest in a potential PvP world's premise, join that world and complain about "forced PvP", and on top of that take up actual PvPer's housing. That's just my opinion though. -
07-04-2021, 12:46 AMTheVigilant
Just for those who don't know how open world PvP currently works in WoW, there is no such thing as a PvP server anymore since two expansions already and there is a PvP mode called War Mode for all servers instead.
Players with PvP mode turned on are phased in their own world, they can only see those with the PvP mode turned on so those with the PvP mode turned off are unable to see and interact with those with PvP mode on.
There is also a few incentives to having the PvP mode enabled.
What it gives when enabled:- Access to all PvP talents (PvP skills and abilities) in the outdoor world, regardless of being engaged in PvP combat or not.
- +10% experience boost while leveling.
- +10% World Quest (they're like FATE) reward bonuses at max level.
- Ability to earn Conquest Points (PvP experience), which count towards a weekly progress bar for special gear rewards.
- Completion of PvP achievements.
Many players play with PvP mode turned off and enjoy the game just fine. -
07-04-2021, 12:48 AMlinayarNevertheless, it becomes a consideration for some and it's unnecessary when there is no need to make a PvP server when adding servers is a huge deal for SE. It's a wasted effort when every new server could serve everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
If you want to PvP on a PvP server, play a game that has it. Even WoW doesn't have PvP servers any more. -
07-04-2021, 12:51 AMlinayarPvP server should not have housing? That's not what I'm saying. There should be no PvP server when a new server could benefit everyone, not just those who want to PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by awa_awa
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07-04-2021, 12:57 AMSturmChurroHow exactly would having a PvP world be a problem? Not even one?Quote:
Originally Posted by linayar
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07-04-2021, 12:58 AMTheodric
Since server visit is due to be expanded across every major server cluster, everybody will have the ability to play with friends fairly easily soon enough. As such, if a PvP server were to be added then it wouldn't really prevent people from playing with friends. Since if they're an actual friend then surely they wouldn't mind leaving a PvP server to come and play on a normal server every once in a while.
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07-04-2021, 01:08 AMElciaDeiLinus"If you don't agree with me, you're toxic"- well I guess we'd all better agree, since there's apparently only one permitted opinion on this matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by awa_awa
I can see how some find this community very toxic now, if 'has a different opinion' is the threshold. I admit, being a WoW refugee, my opinion of toxic involves being spam reported on the forums, stalked in game or to discord, have every thread have more hostility in the first five posts than this thread has had in 45 pages, be threatened on a regular basis, have groups fall apart constantly amid slurs and personal insult spam. But if 'has a different opinion' is what's considered toxic here, then these forums are positively dripping with people disagreeing with each other in calm and rational discussions- truly a chilling situation.
There are plenty of reasons to be for open world pvp realms, and plenty to be against it- bringing up reasons on either side isn't toxic, and we shouldn't pretend it is. If it could be implemented with minimal effort (which I personally think is extremely doubtful, I think this would be a monumental undertaking) I would have no issue with it provided it is contained. I think though there's enough evidence in other games that it is not contained- of course from a physical standpoint it is, if you want to be involved with it you can go to a pvp realm, but would the community, complaints about wpvp balance, toxicity over things like camping, etc... end up being contained?
I don't know, but I do know that at the moment, those who want a wpvp realm to be added are going to have to convince SE (and to a degree, the community) that it is: a wanted feature, would see significant use to warrant the time it'd take to add it in, and wouldn't see a great deal of hostility pop up in the community as we see in other wpvp games. I doubt you'll convince anyone by antagonizing them and calling them toxic however. -
07-04-2021, 01:14 AMNW3This is how New World does it too and it's fun as hell. Everybody wins. And you know what? Let's say you're curious about PvP just once. You can turn it on too. You might even win your fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVigilant
Don't even need PvP worlds just the ability to flag it like WoW and New World. I kept mine on at times when exploring because who cares if you die. Today dying from PvP has no penalty - unlike the past. You die a lot in every video game you play. Get over it. -
07-04-2021, 01:33 AMElciaDeiLinusI will say a few things about warmode.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVigilant
1- It's basically dead, since Alliance don't use it because of how vastly outnumbered they are (just check out the war mode forum- it's basically Horde guilds trying to brag about their exploits in an echo chamber that the other side left five years ago)
2- It would require SE to implement phasing as well as some sort of cross realm world (or you wouldn't get wpvp at all if every single world had their own warmode version)- either way, you'd need to put in a new technology just for it, or, double the amount of servers for something that likely would see minimal use... clearly a massive undertaking either way
3- It absolutely did nothing to eliminate complaints about wpvp or the toxicity. At first it was full of Alliance complaining that they were camped everywhere, then Horde complaining that Alliance had too many incentives for being the smaller faction, then Alliance complaining because they were always so outnumbered they couldn't do anything while Horde basically got a permanent 10% buff. Then more complaints about Maw wpvp despite it being a feature you could turn off- and Blizz had to make changes to the Maw specifically for people who were complaining about being killed while using a feature they could turn off at any point. No matter how optional you make wpvp, it still ends up being a massive headache for everyone.
4- I feel like the incentives only made people who don't want to wpvp do it, which only led to a lot of the problems it has had. -
07-04-2021, 01:35 AMSturmChurro"But I'd be forced to play on a PvP server, just so I can have a house!"Quote:
Originally Posted by awa_awa
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07-04-2021, 01:42 AMElciaDeiLinusExcept housing is already a feature in the game so it doesn't need to be developed, and housing is also a feature with proven, massive interest, so much so that not everyone can get houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by awa_awa
Let's look at pvp- there is pvp in the game already, but it's not in a great state and it's not overly popular. There's already a place for duelling and settling personal differences in an opt in manner, if you need that 'wpvp' itch scratched... and it's empty basically all the time on almost every realm.
If the duelling arena was constantly so full of players that want to duel it was causing problems, then there could be a comparison made.
That said- I want more housing available (I actually already have my house- but I'd want it for other people)- but if you said 'I do not think SE should add more housing, because...' and brought up a reason in a constructive way... no, I wouldn't consider that toxic. I'd disagree with you, maybe I wouldn't understand how you could think that- but consider you toxic for having an opinion I don't like? Of course not, that's kind of absurd. -
07-04-2021, 02:59 AMElciaDeiLinus
Which is why people are bringing up their concerns about wpvp being implemented- instead of simply saying 'you disagree with wpvp therefore you are toxic' to avoid having to address the issues- why not take those concerns seriously and provide counter arguments?
I've seen plenty of valid reasons to bring in wpvp, and plenty of valid reasons to not do so in this thread, I wouldn't consider any of that to be toxic. Ultimately, labelling people with opinions you don't agree with toxic is just attacking the person rather than the argument- you're spending your time trying to dissuade people from having opinions and sharing them, instead of trying to persuade people of the validity of your own opinion.
I don't think anyone here can know for sure how many resources it would take SE to do this, how widely it would get utilized and if it would be enough to warrant those resources, how toxic the wpvp community would be here, what sort of problems it might cause for those who don't want to be involved, or if it'd be more valuable to spend their pvp resources on addressing issues in current pvp or adding new pvp features/content aside from wpvp.
But people can have opinions, and I do think some of those opinions are valid, logical and are being ignored instead of addressed because they are valid, and thus hard to address and easier to label 'toxic'. Having a discussion with both sides saying what they think of it is a good thing, in my opinion.
I'm not going to say my thoughts on why they should or shouldn't add wpvp- and I do have some on both sides of this discussion- are all correct, but I do believe they are grounded in reason, have history to back them up, would probably need to be addressed to make wpvp work if it were put in, and I don't think they're toxic at all. -
07-04-2021, 03:02 AMJojoyaWe get three instances of zones at times every expansion now. At the start of Shadowbringers, it was every new zone (including Crystarium and Eulmore) plus Mor Dhona. Later patches we saw it limited to a smaller number of zones. Right now, the Rising Stones is the only zone running multiple instances (probably because of the massive wall of 5.55 cutscenes that occur when our character is there).Quote:
Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus
I doubt it would need any major new technology, just a way to make one of those instances (and any player who enters it) marked for PvP. Teleport to a zone and you automatically get placed in one of the non-PvP instances. Use the Aetheryte to select Instance PvP instead of Instance 1, Instance 2 or Instance 3.
But I also doubt it would work using instances on all worlds like that. The population that would actively participate in world PvP would be too diluted. There would need to be PvP designated worlds so those players could find each other. And if world visit between non-PvP and PvP worlds was allowed, the population would be diluted even further as those who want to be doing things other than world PvP would simply hop over to another world. The only ones left would be the ones who want to PvP.
At that point, what's the real difference between open world PvP and instanced PvP? You've got a FFA/brawl mode with no one doing anything else. Might as well just make it a separate zone with terrain that can be used for tactical purposes and allows players to enter and leave at will (somewhat like Diadem, Eureka, BSF and Zadnor). -
07-04-2021, 03:28 AMElciaDeiLinusI think it may need some tweaking if they wanted to wpvp zones to have pvp abilities/gear/levels for balance- though that feels like that runs contrary to wpvp, which generally differs from instanced pvp in that it doesn't have balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I think the point about every server having their own wpvp zone is a pretty valid one- which is why I bring up the concern about it being something with minimal interest. If not many people use it, it ends up being wasted effort from SE. But, if not many people use it- it also ends up not being a good wpvp experience for those who want it, because they'll never see anyone to pvp with. That's one of the big issues with warmode in WoW- it's all Horde everywhere, Alliance don't do it because they just get ganged up on, Horde who want wpvp though don't actually get any.
Of course- in this game would it be FFA pvp, or would it be red v yellow v brown?
If they put in wpvp, and wanted it to have engagement- I think it'd have to be a single realm people could visit, or something like in ESO/GW2 where it's basically a massive, persistent instanced pvp zone. -
07-04-2021, 03:44 AMEldevern
One of the very reason why Open World PVP will not work is demonstrated by PVP MMO vs Fortnite.
In Open World PVP MMO population is diluted between servers and there are people who will want to to the PVE quests when some other players will have PVP as purpose. In Fortnite : all player are here for PVP AND a limited time.
If PVP areas in FFXIV could propably be more interesting, they are not that bad since it is PVP purpose only for a limited time too. When people don't have the same purpose in the same time it doesn't work, it brings toxicity, dramas etc.
Of course, you can make PVP opt-in only or dedicated servers but... then people complain there is not enough PVP. -
07-04-2021, 04:22 AMEriShvakh
Let's forget for a second that XIV playerbase is massively PvE centric, and how open PVP goes against the very lore of the game and let's imagine for a second what's going to happen on pvp realms.
What reasons are there to go outside of cities?
MSQ - do you really, actually, seriously, unironically want to be ganked by a random NIN over and over and over and over while you're stuck in "wait" animation during MSQ? Or on a way to next NPC? Good luck.
Fates - depending on how important they are people are either going to do them in big groups without engaging in PvP, or kill people on sight because killing lvl 80 synced to lvl 50 is fun and easy.
Hunts - Early on in the game two or three big FC's will farm them while killing everyone else on sight. Later on hunt trains will resume.
Gathering - Every timed high level resource will be camped by massive FC's. And if you're not part of them, you will be killed. Since owning high level materials means owning the market, those spawns will be either highly contested between big FC's or shared if they are allied to each other.
Since this game doesn't have farming spots, big open world bosses, or some kind of territory control, fight for resources and random ganking will be the only reason to open world PvP. I have no idea why anyone would want that. -
07-04-2021, 05:04 AMKes13a
well, for anyone that is concerned, I do not see any wpvp for 6.0 unless they seriously about face. last on it from an interview with Yoshi-P is from Feb of this year and there was zero mention of wpvp at fanfest. so, think we can think about wpvp in FFxiv, as a dead horse for the moment and Awa Awa can blame everyone else for our toxic antagonism stopping it from happening (and likely some good old in game SE stats). while its taken from a livestream with Yoshi-P, and I hardly would call that definitive, software creation wise, we are past the point of adding things in and likely in testing systems
Have a great day ^^
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New PvP
Endwalker and 6.0 will come with a new PvP mode that’s smaller in scale than what’s currently in the game. The intention here is to make PvP content that feels “more casual and more immersive by removing role restrictions.” Another part of the idea is to make matching easier than before.
This new PvP content won’t just be for the hardcore. There’ll be a new type of reward system that doesn’t focus solely on gear, but will also have a new category of reward, in the hopes of opening it up to a lot of new players. -
07-04-2021, 05:17 AMJojoyaI think it would end up FFA, with players only being immune to "friendly fire" if in the same party/Alliance. Can't use GC affiliation as the basis because the GCs aren't at war with each other. SE had to stretch to come up with the war games rationale for the instanced PvP modes as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus
Some players just want to fight other players. They find it fun. You can't really argue with their subjective preferences.Quote:
Originally Posted by EriShvakh
I don't think open world PvP in this game would give them the experience they are imagining, though. It's essentially player created content, which means you need enough players interested in doing it. SE cannot force players to participate or they lose the buik of the payer that has no interest in world PvP. -
07-04-2021, 05:23 AMAwha
I would be down for some Wpvp ganking.
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07-04-2021, 07:04 AMCaurcas
If you have issues, just get them out of your way. Open world pvp does this.
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07-04-2021, 12:24 PMVelKallorWant to see 90% of players walk out the door?Quote:
Greetings fellow forum posters. I post this thread today in order to promote and spur discussion on open world pvp in 14.
I notice that you dont seem to care what OTHERS want..why is that? Other players dont want to fight them, so really when it comes down to it, one persons fun at someone else expense = a flat NOQuote:
Some players just want to fight other players. They find it fun. You can't really argue with their subjective preferences.
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07-04-2021, 12:54 PMDelisYes but as some of us have already said, we would see it as its own server that you don't have to play on so you wont have to take part in the wpvp, if you don't want to. We know it wont happen but it is nice for some of us to dream and hope, but it would be to much involved this late in the game to rebalance everything for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
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07-04-2021, 03:52 PMlinayarOf course I don't decide, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by awa_awa
And that demand is why I'm voicing my vote on no PvP server.
I said it already. It's a full server with all the resources needed for SE to deploy and maintain it and you're just going to limit it to those who want PvP? I think that's a waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
It could still prevent them with congestion issues. On the other hand, the last thing people might want is to be stuck while visiting friends on a PvP server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
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07-04-2021, 04:08 PMEriShvakhOh, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that wPvP is a bad and players who want it are bad. I just think that game isn't built around open wPvP in the same way as something like WoW or BDO are. It a fun thing to discuss and theorize about, but if implemented it would bring more headaches than positives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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07-04-2021, 06:07 PMMalia_ChanYes... Do it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Caurcas
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07-04-2021, 07:12 PMTeraRamis
Despite the class imbalance issue, I'd really welcome open world PvP servers... and that's largely due to the fact that, given how supporting FFXIV's community is, I believe a lot of PvP encounters would quickly evolve from 1v1 duels into larger pitched battles (where such imbalances would be smoothed out by more classes being present).
Honestly, the game world as a whole is kind of dull at this juncture. Any change that livened it up a little would be welcome. -
07-04-2021, 07:13 PMAnhraI think PvP does hold some good Potential in this game (which is also pretty much the main reason why i keep posting about it). It is kind of similar how PvP used to be in 2006-2010 with the way how the engine and combat works.Quote:
Originally Posted by EriShvakh
As a example, I played during that time a MMORPG called Rappelz Online (its still somewhat alive, but its more of a zombie that has its best time already behind) which had a similar PvP feel like FFXIV PvP, with the exception that movement was clickbased.
Classes back then, didn't had a actual Rotation back then and didnt even had a global cooldown. Every single skill had its own cooldown. Some Skills had a fairly low CD which worked somewhat similar to a Rotation which were only used when you had played your biggest skills and/or were waiting for the right moment.
But the important part is, HOW the Classes were designed. This game had 3 factions with each of them, having their own, unique Healers, Tanks, Summoners as well as Dps Classes. Each of them had their own unique approach of things and despite having even open world PK, as well as (heavy grind related) PvE content, noone truly cared if you had a Healer from faction A, B or C, when it came to overall performance.
I recomment searching this up on Google just to compare it to FFXIV's design choice in PvP, since i know that noone is going to click on any Links i provide -
07-04-2021, 10:21 PMCerbolt
If they added separate wpvp servers I wouldn't be against it.
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07-05-2021, 12:21 AMEldevern
Godwin point is not really usual in FFXIV community. In my experience it was rather the opposite.
It has always been really common on forums. The Godwin's law has been defined back in 90's.
To return to the topic, most players I know since ARR don't like PVP and consider the fact PVP really is a side content as a plus. Not it be stressful, it's a bother. -
07-05-2021, 12:34 AMAwha
Yes please add a mandatory WPvP zone as part of the next relic. That would be interesting.
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07-05-2021, 01:46 AMArtemiz
Lmao, these bad ass tough guy PvP cowboys sure do get offended quickly, I've not seen this level of victim claiming in ages. As soon as the tiniest shot back is fired you all get together to condemn how terrible it was.
Just imagine if we got PvP how triggered you'd be getting bounced by a male Roegadyn in stockings and panties. -
07-05-2021, 01:48 AMTheodric
It's less about being offended and more a matter of desiring civil discussion and for the thread to not be thrown off track. That and the barbs shot make little sense to begin with.
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07-05-2021, 01:53 AMBaconBitsA male roe wearing panties is no match for my Namazu head/subligar combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemiz
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07-05-2021, 02:08 AMSomeRandomHuman
There was a mentioned thing about a status that could be clicked on for those that want to partake in it. I'd be fine with that.
I despise open world pvp for the harassment aspect. There's a lot of low-life players that would camp low-level zones just to one-shot new players over and over again. Also this would let bots rule the overworld. They would just hide underground and pelt people with spells and/or bullets/arrows with 0 retaliation against them. Doing MSQ or sidequests only to get killed for walking by underground bots? Yeah. 11/10 experience there amirite. -
07-05-2021, 02:15 AMArtemizReally? The very same people who come out with gems such as "bullying the weak is fun" and "crashing weddings is fun" and "you should have seen that funeral we crashed, it was hilarious" and "gatherers are gonna get it, minding their own business, pffft"..... well I could go on. This thread has been a gold mine for that kind of thing. And now, you want to talk about civility..... ok, sure thing bud, makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
In before I get told I don't "comprehend" PvP in
5
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GO! -
07-05-2021, 02:19 AMTheodric
I'd suggest that even a cursory glance at the thread would show that there is no hive mind at play and that even those who desire more PvP content in the game are not in full agreement with one another. As such, it doesn't make much sense to me to paint everyone in such broad strokes.
If we want to try a different angle, though, consider that many people simply aren't interested in being pulled into a debate lacking in a civil exchange as they would rather not see themselves or even other posters banned due to breaches of the site rules - or for the thread to be nuked/closed. -
07-05-2021, 02:30 AMArtemiz
There is a good half a dozen of you that likes to stand around stroking your beards discussing how offended you are at even playful shots back, then you condescend people to within an inch of their lives and talk about how much fun it is to bully people in game. And now you want to lecture me on civility, give it break mate, you don't have the credibility.