Players Who Don't pull their weight.

I leveled BLM to 60 then ditched all caster gear once that and smnr was finished. I didnt fully understand the advanced abilities, and didnt care to learn as I was never going to play it again anyway. I did make sure to not be a burden on others though and 'be carried'. I stayed out of the post 50 dungeons and burst leveled to 60 in a couple of days through fates.

As long as we're able to clear the content in duty find I don't get too upset honestly. Outside of someone being an azz and sitting to the side making everyone else do 100% of the work. As long as people put effort in for the higher level stuff and try and learn their primary classes, then it's all good. At least figure out the ones you plan on playing the most. That's all I ask. :)

I've just accepted some groups will be good, and some will need help. You want perfect runs? You will absolutely need to run a static. Duty find is a true roulette. Not only of what content you get, but the quality of players.

Im done, I'm done I'm done. Despite im super nice and calm, just saing 1 word that can put their "knowledge" into question, people tend to explote and starting to behave like inmature kids. Calling me elitist or condence. I give up, I really lost my patience today and im gonna keep my mouth close forever.

xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frederick22

Im done, I'm done I'm done. Despite im super nice and calm, just saing 1 word that can put their "knowledge" into question, people tend to explote and starting to behave like inmature kids. Calling me elitist or condence. I give up, I really lost my patience today and im gonna keep my mouth close forever.

xD

---

Unsolicited advice is often unwanted advice. Easy solution is don't give unless it is asked for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Unsolicited advice is often unwanted advice. Easy solution is don't give unless it is asked for.

---

I think at least a part of this is the block on sending tells in dungeons. When you try to give someone advice in a dungeon, you're publicly announcing their flaws/failings in front of an audience. I think a lot more people would be more receptive and less defensive if you could politely send them a private message.

If a guy standing next to you leans over and whispers 'hey, you have something in your teeth', you might be a little embarrassed but likely a little grateful for pointing out the problem to you, so you can fix it.

A guy across the room points and yells out across the gathering 'hey budy, you have something in your teeth', I don't see it receiving a warm reception.

I think whatever harassment they think is going to occur if you can send a tell would be outweighed by being able to discreetly assist someone who's struggling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Unsolicited advice is often unwanted advice. Easy solution is don't give unless it is asked for.

---

That's not really a good attitude to have in a group content though, especially when your performance is at the detriment of the party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crysten

(though I would question your priorities if you have a 200 weapon and full 220 gear)

---

Why, exactly? Just curious because I only have the 200 weapon on my 60s, because more than that seemed like more work than it's worth for me, who doesn't generally try to do anything beyond basic duty roulettes.

All this make me think about two things :
people imagine there is a common sense, I friendly suggest to think about politics (generally, with your own point of view), are you sure you still think common sense exists? :p

More seriously, coming from the Bêta (2.0) one thing I could complain about : levelling is fast AND synchronization is pretty too friendly. That's nice for fast run/farm but to learn mechanics, it is bad.

I see it with my rerolls (mean 3rd 4th jobs etc.), we progress fast in levelling but finally get poor experience. We end to learn when we are 60 and full geared. In the opposite, people who are used to play HL sometimes -often- forgot in low level dungeons we don't always have the skills requiered to properly fast runs (and mobs cannot be packed such way, you loose agro as tank, they don't follow you). I sometimes meet tanks who imagine because we have a HL (or look so) character, we are used to fast run... there is nothing more false : each players have their own pace and gaming time. If I play with my alt who is heal, it is really rare I play with, I'm not used at all with fast run. They also imagine we are used to farm and to farm the way they do... but we can have never done so.

Same goes with raid or dungeon without beginner warning. You can do your second run. It is far from farm knowledge of a content.

I understand what most people here say about bad players but... you look like forgetting this a little anyway, too. Please never imagine your way of playing is the same for every players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seraseth

I think at least a part of this is the block on sending tells in dungeons. When you try to give someone advice in a dungeon, you're publicly announcing their flaws/failings in front of an audience. I think a lot more people would be more receptive and less defensive if you could politely send them a private message.

---

Coupled with the ability to blacklist individuals cross-realm and within a dungeon, this could be a step to improve DF. People probably don't want to end up in a situation where someone is spewing abuse, you can't kick them, you can't leave (in combat) and you can't stop them from sending /tells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frederick22

Im done, I'm done I'm done. Despite im super nice and calm, just saing 1 word that can put their "knowledge" into question, people tend to explote and starting to behave like inmature kids. Calling me elitist or condence. I give up, I really lost my patience today and im gonna keep my mouth close forever.

---

Don't give up helping people. Separating yourself from the problem doesn't mean the problem goes away. Wanting other players to improve but doing nothing to make that happen is kind of like wanting to get through content but refusing to be open for improvement. Like two sides of a coin. We get people asking for more and more tutorials and training grounds and content gates and more punishing mechanics early on, like it's everyone else's and the "system's" fault that people don't learn. Just like we get people asking for nerfs and sneaking into farm groups as if it's other people and the "system" stopping them from progressing. I say it's up to each and every person to make the change happen, despite the bad apples and people beyond help which can indeed discourage us to do so. JP doesn't need their game and SE to be holding their hand, governing and controlling for a healthy community, so why should we?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArikDimas

this question would be more so aimed at Mattelot, is it "elitist" for me to want someone to have at least basic understanding of how their character works, even when the rudest thing I did that whole dungeon run was contemplate trying to vote kick them?

---

You can want that all you want. We would all love a perfect world. Nobody ever said it was Elitist to offer advice. Being rude and condescending is, amongst other things.

My 11 year old plays some video games. He's played on my WoW account back in the day when he saw me play and said "that looks cool, can I try?" He wasn't very good, but he was having fun. Watching him from a steam on my TV, I saw someone trying to give him advice. They were not rude at first but when he didn't reply, he was called a few nasty names. Is it possible that the Blm in question was young and not skilled enough to type and play? Is it possible that the person was just not a very good video game player? Maybe the person was the Ast's significant other who isn't a typical gamer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That's not really a good attitude to have in a group content though, especially when your performance is at the detriment of the party.

---

Maybe in your opinion. It's been noted that the majority of "advice" people in this game give is more often than not very rude. I don't blame people for ignoring it.

Also, it's been noted that if you want someone playing how you want, make a static. Putting forth a bunch of effort to a random guy you'll likely never run into again can be a waste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Normalizer

If they were a tank or healer without the basic of their class, with no response when asked, i'm pretty sure not many will have 2nd thought before clicking the vote kick button. So, why it's be a different in this case, just because the healer/tank and the other dps can carry the last dps? It's a low level dungeon so it might not be that much serious, but think about the case it is a much harder dungeon (eg. Vault, Aurum Vale, etc.), one dps like that would cause wipe after wipe. I would really consider vote kick:

---

Some of us play on console and it's not easy (in before "its super easy for me!") to type out explanations on the fly, especially when the other people just want to get things going. Also, we don't owe anyone an explanation. I know it sounds crude, but you're just another random person on the internet.

I've only ever seen kicks in parties for people who DC. Never once has anyone in any party I've been in kicked someone for being bad. People have left because someone was bad. To me, it does sound like Vote Kick abuse. Also, a side note, you don't carry people in DF. That's just something elitists like to think they're doing. The content is designed around minimal effort.

One argument that can be made is that time is money and since ff14 uses a subscription service that notion much more apprently. By extending the time to beat dungeons because of poor play is therefore wasting said person's money. Of course a counter argument can be made that regimenting your entertainment somehow destroys the purpose of having fun.

Now i've little of this game only around 80 hours I am as much of a noob as it gets. But I've played a bevy of other multiplayer game, putting thousands of hours just into TF2 and if there is something I learned it is that, you don't go into a pub and expect everyone to know the Meta from everybody, which is not true, you can assume that from people, everyone starts somewhere and learns. Now you could do two things, you could teach people the meta or stop playing the pub and begin queuing up with friends or people who have the same mindset as you.

The term Solo Queue Dream is such a goddamn meme, because it's stupid to expect anything from a pub. I mean you guys have parties you should use them, get some friends. One argument could be made that you do not necessarily have to make friends, and while that is very much true, you also don't have to play an MMO. I argue that one of the core aspects of an MMO is it's social functionality, especially an MMORPG, without it we would just have regular RPG. In which case you got over like 50 billion FF games to choose from

I really wish you could send tells while in a dungeon. There's a much higher chance of people getting embarrassed/annoyed if you offer advice in front of a group instead of doing it in private. No matter how nicely the advice is given, there's a high chance of it feeling like an attack if it's done in front of a others. Meaning that a lot of times, advice in this game does a lot more harm than good, sadly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Some people play for fun.

---

Is their fun more worth than the fun of the other people in the party?

Its still not a single player game ;)

ppl should be trying to pull their weight I agree fully, but at the same time the true importance of any game is quite meaningless irl.

people should try their best !!!...but no one should ever freak out if others don't ....or they should go see a psychiatrist if they get THAT upset

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mindylou

ppl should be trying to pull their weight I agree fully, but at the same time the true importance of any game is quite meaningless irl.

people should try their best !!!...but no one should ever freak out if others don't ....or they should go see a psychiatrist if they get THAT upset

---

A bit harsh said like that but true. But there are people who do everything seriously, whatever they do, even just a leisure. Some people couldn't imagine to not practicing competition even in their entertainment. Guess they feel they have something to prove, even if other people don't care because they don't feel any kind of competition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

Why, exactly? Just curious because I only have the 200 weapon on my 60s, because more than that seemed like more work than it's worth for me, who doesn't generally try to do anything beyond basic duty roulettes.

---

Upgrading the 200 weapon to 210 only requires a single run of Void Ark, unless you're talking about the 200 relic weapon, which is a whole lot more time consuming than the 490 esoteric tomes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KarstenS

Is their fun more worth than the fun of the other people in the party?

Its still not a single player game ;)

---

Which then begs the question of the break-even point. And about ethical limits.

For example, a 3-man premade might take a great enjoyment out of bullying the odd man out (Imagine things like killing someone with shadewalker aggro transfer over and over). And surely, the odd man out will have to endure, because it's the enjoyment of one versus the enjoyment of 3, right? His fun, after all, is not worth more than the fun of the other 3 people.

It is unfortunately not as easy. Such a case would rightfully be considered harassment.

I still see people ignoring that many of us doesn't expect the very best, but rather a minimal gameplay, like... DRG's using unbuffed jumped when their power surge is up? Or when NIN don't use trick attack? Or like that Healer who cure 2 spams when tank has 90% HP left. Those thing's can easily be fixed. When I was new I never knew what an opener was, I just used b4b on my DRG and did 1-2-3 combo, ignored the one to give debuff on boss, sometimes I did that but 3 times a row etc. You get the idea... People told me in public, duty finders and in PF's.

For me, yeah sure I would be slightly emberassed but I always loved taking advice from other people. Why is it a thing that many in here ignore the main point of our post in here?
Why is it a thing people call other people in here who actually want's to help, being called elitist or assholes? I've seen many of the people in here post and you see certain people have the same attitude in most threads, keeps me wondering if they are trolling or not. Like obviously Matt is trolling because there is no way that guy could be serious. Then you have the other people screaming loud people are elitist, but yet to see they are any better, you know.... Telling people to keep being bad, never help them out etc. If there is 1 thing I dislike in this game it has to be those people who lead new or old players the wrong way. Just becase you couldn't do it, doesn't mean the next person can't do it.

Anyways I will keep helping those people who want's help or just give advice if I see any flaw, why?`Becuase it would be so lovely for them to turn into great players.. Ops I mean elitist players..

To be short, I appreciate people who want's to learn to be better or those who help others out. Those are the good people, not the one's who ignore the problem. What's extremely sad is there are more players coming almost everyday and people in this thread loves to keep them on their low standars, so they don't turn into ''elitist'' players haha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

For example, a 3-man premade might take a great enjoyment out of bullying the odd man out. And surely, the odd man out will have to endure, because it's the enjoyment of one versus the enjoyment of 3, right? His fun, after all, is not worth more than the fun of the other 3 people. It is unfortunately not as easy.

---

I know you never asked me, but I want to reply to it. We had decent people in my group when we 3man premade roulettes, however we are accepting they are doing decent. If some one is just sitting there like they are almost afk we kick them. The other day at 60 roulette a guy had bonus on Saint Mocianne's dungeon and tank left right away thinking it be a slow run or whatever. So we waited and waited, no tank showed up, so my friend left as a MNK and another dps showed up and he came back as a tank so we could do the run. The NIN? not the greatest? Was he pretty bad? from 1-6 I'd say 3. Missed few trick attacks etc, but then again gave him some advice through out the run and he tried and it worked out better. Was it worth keeping him in the group? Hell yeah, he did try and he responded and the run was pretty fast too, because me dpsing as WHM does help alot as well. But you know.... Why did I need to tell you this?`Well because I'm sure many like myself in here would done excactly the same, help a person out. But you know... at the same time 90% of the nay sayers won't believe me, because after all I'm an elitist ass, while they are sweet and kind telling people lies and keep them on their bad standars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eldevern

A bit harsh said like that but true. But there are people who do everything seriously, whatever they do, even just a leisure. Some people couldn't imagine to not practicing competition even in their entertainment. Guess they feel they have something to prove, even if other people don't care because they don't feel any kind of competition.

---

Guess I am guilty of this. Whatever I do, from a project at work to frying an egg, I'll always do my best. Guess it's just the way I was brought up, or maybe an age/culture thing. If that egg comes out perfect or not doesn't really matter, but I'll still try and get it just right. If something's worth doing at all, it's worth me putting in the effort. If someone did something and it stopped me getting that egg, I'd be mad

this started off as some deep analogy, but I got lost because I started thinking about my egg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Guess I am guilty of this. Whatever I do, from a project at work to frying an egg, I'll always do my best. Guess it's just the way I was brought up, or maybe an age/culture thing. If that egg comes out perfect or not doesn't really matter, but I'll still try and get it just right. If something's worth doing at all, it's worth me putting in the effort. If someone did something and it stopped me getting that egg, I'd be mad

this started off as some deep analogy, but I got lost because I started thinking about my egg

---

Oh, you know, I don't think bad about it, I'm more nuanced than my words kept like that. I pretty well understand people who want to do things right, properly. But I have some kind of doubt or wondering when I see people running into other, as if there were in a competition, competition that in fact exists only in their mind. I undersand the wish of a clean job -not perfect, but at least clean- but not some kind of virtual competition that lead few people to run into other or dispising them.

And the question that comes to me if : does a game deserve to come in such angers as if their real life were depending of a game. To be upset, ok, but going mad... I've seen such angers sometimes.

Maybe they should start adding enrage timers on dungeon bosses that would be fun right? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Guess I am guilty of this. Whatever I do, from a project at work to frying an egg, I'll always do my best. Guess it's just the way I was brought up, or maybe an age/culture thing. If that egg comes out perfect or not doesn't really matter, but I'll still try and get it just right. If something's worth doing at all, it's worth me putting in the effort.

---

In the end, I think this is really what it comes down to in a lot of cases - those of us who keep bringing this topic up are the type of people who always strive to do their best, to be better than we were before, and who also happen to have a fair bit of free time to worry about these things. Naturally, there's all sorts of circumstances that might prevent players from investing a lot of time and effort in a game like this, but there's also the fact that a lot of people are happy with just doing the bare minimum, for all things in life.

If a person can nail a rotation in 1Day. Or few hours then everyone else can. Its the matter of trying and not trying

One million% incorrect. You're assuming that everyone is equally skilled, knowledgeable and experienced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by randysquirrel

this started off as some deep analogy, but I got lost because I started thinking about my egg

---

Well, potatoes go good with eggs :P Sorry, had to

I disagree about the fact you say he's a troll.

In fact I agree with both him and you since I never consider the world as white or black but grey. Anyway, that is not the question. I will give proper explanation about my point of view :

We can improve, right. We agree on this point.

BUT, we only can to a certain extent. We can become good but not every people can become a master or an expert. In that meaning, I think you have been too harsh with him.

It is just a fact that people aren't

Quote:

---

equally skilled, knowledgeable and experienced.

---

no matter how hard they try.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eldevern

I disagree about the fact you say he's a troll.

In fact I agree with both him and you since I never consider the world as white or black but grey. Anyway, that is not the question. I will give propoer explanation about my point of view :

We can improve, right. We agree on this point.

BUT, we only can to a certain extent. We can become good but not every people can become a master or an expert. In that meaning, I think you have been too harsh with him.

It is just a fact that people aren't no matter how hard they try.

---

Some of our viewpoints is expecting people to know very bare stuff like combo rotations (in which the game even highlights the skills) or not standing in AoE. Going by the thread's history, there's resistance to even that sort of expectation (or ignorance of it altogether, whichever), which is causing so much rift. We're speaking of people who can't do even that at level 60 in EX roulettes. Is that honestly too much to even expect at level 60, because that's the vibe I'm getting from some of the replies here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Some of our viewpoints is expecting people to know very bare stuff like combo rotations (in which the game even highlights the skills) or not standing in AoE. Going by the thread's history, there's resistance to even that sort of expectation (or ignorance of it altogether, whichever), which is causing so much rift. We're speaking of people who can't do even that at level 60 in EX roulettes. Is that honestly too much to even expect at level 60, because that's the vibe I'm getting from some of the replies here.

---

No, we are talking the meta rotations, ie openers and other rotations that maximize or makes there playstyle effecient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eldevern

I disagree about the fact you say he's a troll..

---

Which I don't mind at all. We all can improve, so we both agree there, yes, I do agree again people learn slower than others and some are just a natural talent in games. People aren't experienced but that have very many reasons to do so. Small list
Fresh to game perhaps?
No knowledge of class or job
Then the worse one, people are given false fact and that could also leave people out of groups,which leads to being in experienced. If a player have no clue why they aren't included in let's say extreme primal fights,but given fact they aren't good enough and I talk about a 80% gameplay here which is totally fine in my book and I'm sure many here agrees there. However, when some one preaches them with people who do ex primals are eltist because we actually beat the content, they start to think it's fine to just stay bad. This is a big issue.

I might have been harsh and I've been in the past. I do tell people i'm sorry if I go to far, however about Mat I wont. First of all spreading lies about me and make up things I've never said, then tries to get away without saying sorry, isn't something I will accept. In my nature I'm only harsh to those I think really desveres it, in this case Matt.

Geez man what's your beef with matt?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PeachPapaya

Geez man what's your beef with matt?

---

Click Matt's name, view all posts. That'll show you what issues people have with him. He argues with people just for the sake of arguing, most likely just trolling. Argues with people how "no one can be carried", which in fact, people can be. Claims everyone who tells him how to play or gives advice(which by his posts, theres a high chance he's one of those people who don't even do basic rotations or mechanics and gets mad if someone points it out), is an elitist and when you point out a flaw in that logic (which by that logic, tutorials are elitist to him since they tell you how to play), he goes off on how you "got told" by him and other crazy nonsense about how everyone is making up stuff just because he's never encountered it. Not to mention he's used the "I pay my sub" excuse and hinting that his sub is worth more than the rest of the pt, so he's content with bringing the overall pt down.

He's pretty much the equivalent of a 12 year old on League of Legends and at this point from all of his stuff, it's just best to keep scrolling when you see Matt post something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Obysuca

Click Matt's name, view all posts. That'll show you what issues people have with him.

He's pretty much the equivalent of a 12 year old on League of Legends and at this point from all of his stuff, it's just best to keep scrolling when you see Matt post something.

---

This. Very much this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Obysuca

Click Matt's name, view all posts. That'll show you what issues people have with him. He argues with people just for the sake of arguing

---

No I don't. I'm not judgmental and ask questions. If you can't answer and it makes you mad, is that my fault?

Quote:

---

most likely just trolling.

---

Why? Because you don't agree? Boy, that's fresh.. The old "his opinion is not the same as mine, he MUST be a troll!" comment.

Quote:

---

Argues with people how "no one can be carried", which in fact, people can be.

---

I said in DF, which is tailored to minimum effort. Don't feed people half of the story.

Quote:

---

Claims everyone who tells him how to play or gives advice(which by his posts, theres a high chance he's one of those people who don't even do basic rotations or mechanics and gets mad if someone points it out), is an elitist

---

Also not true. Once again (and likely not the last time), I said that people who feel the need to condescend, make fun of and are flat-out rude to people because they don't like how they play are elitists. I've said many times that offering friendly advice is not being elitist. Care for me to quote those posts? I'll gladly oblige.

Quote:

---

and when you point out a flaw in that logic (which by that logic, tutorials are elitist to him since they tell you how to play), he goes off on how you "got told" by him and other crazy nonsense about how everyone is making up stuff just because he's never encountered it.

---

I'll pay you real money if you can show me where I said this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PeachPapaya

No, we are talking the meta rotations, ie openers and other rotations that maximize or makes there playstyle effecient.

---

Re-read the discussion then. We're not referring to the meta, but people playing the basics in general. If we're on the discussion on meta and effecient play, then no, I don't think that it should be expected that every single person should be capacble of such at 60. However, that's not the case here, which is what I keep trying to clarify. Trying to butt heads with the wrong context is what's causing so much of the rift. And even then, the rotations in this game aren't exactly branching either; there's always a 1-2-3 combo that straight up does damage, and another that gives some form of buffs. Utilizing the concept of combos and follow up skills sohuld honestly be something you'll get a hang of by level 15-20, especially when the game highlights those skills to begin with essentially saying "hey, press me!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PeachPapaya

Geez man what's your beef with matt?

---

Also just look at his signature:
"I don't DPS while healing"=Troll or bad player. End of story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Also just look at his signature:
"I don't DPS while healing"=Troll or bad player. End of story.

---

Judgmental much?

Shouldn't, but I'm going to take the troll bait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mattelot

I'll pay you real money if you can show me where I said this.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mattelot

Also, who said anything about tutorials? Lol! I swear, when Elitists get told like it is, they really start reaching.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mattelot

Keep reaching, you're about to touch the stars!

Edit: Never been kicked from a group. The majority of people saying they kick someone for being bad, I guarantee are made up.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mattelot

I'm going to call BS on that one. Seems tons of 60 dragoons and never seen one do that ever.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mattelot

I don't care what you expect. I'm still calling BS. I am seeing so many more made up things in these threads.

---

I'd like that real money now, please. Do you also want me to go back and quote where you argued that no one can be carried and people pointed out that if someone is doing no dps or is dead, that it's being carried, yet you continued to argue that its impossible to carry someone?

Still not seeing where I said tutorials are elitist. I said that condescending, making fun of and being rude to people is elitist, not tutorials. Tutorials do not say things like "omg, get out of that AOE you noob!" or "you suck, please unsubscribe!" or "you do not play to my standards, please leave!" Also, you said that I said... "everyone is making things up" when what you just quoted, shows that I said "the majority."

That being said, you've not given what I actually asked for. Now, before you realize what you've just done and edit your post to correct yourself, I will say that I admire your zeal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Also just look at his signature:
"I don't DPS while healing"=Troll or bad player. End of story.

---

Well it's not like it isn't an arguable point, his argument hinges on the fact that dps as a healer is a moot point because dpsing as a healer is useless.

I personally think instead of going back if forth with counter arguments you show hard facts and calcluations about exactly how much dps a healer can actually do

I've never once said that anyone who questions my playstyle is an Elitist. If someone wants to make a condescending or rude remark, that's another story. What part about that do you not understand?

Also, I said P E O P L E who act like that. In case you didn't know, the game isn't a person. But if you want to continue thinking like that, I don't really know how else to explain it to you unless you're doing exactly what you falsely accused me of doing and "arguing for the sake of arguing."

I asked you to show me where I said that everyone is making things up. You did not do that. You gave an example of me saying that the majority (majority =/= all). There is no reason to resort to name calling, especially if you're going to speak for everyone else.

Do novice quests call people "noobs" and tell people to unsubscribe? Do novice quests say "if you don't play this way, stay out of my DF?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PeachPapaya

Well it's not like it isn't an arguable point, his argument hinges on the fact that dps as a healer is a moot point because dpsing as a healer is useless.

I personally think instead of going back if forth with counter arguments you show hard facts and calcluations about exactly how much dps a healer can actually do

---

Holy does as almost much damage as Flare (the best single use raw damage AoE spell in the game) and is spammable unlike Flare. A WHM casting Holy does more damage than any other two classes combined on 3+ mobs.

It's not an arguable point at all. It's just playing terribly.