The arrogance of some people

I don't like it as well but only because he said it would save him time... well, if someone does not like the game to the point that each minute in an instance is a pain, he should really play another game.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

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I wouldn't call them bad, just average. Honestly the Healer is not required to DPS. Yoshi said Healers aren't required to DPS, and he confirmed that Healer DPS is not even considered outside of 3.0 Raids, and before then, not considered at all. Healers being "required" to DPS is just part of a larger problem; there not being enough Heal checks in content, and/or DPS needing Healer DPS to cover up for them.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

I don't like this at all. I don't mind Healers contributing to a burning a boss down, but relying on Healers to not only do that, keep the party up, and do what is suppose to be DPS mechanics, is just wrong to me, and promotes lazy DPS.

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Efficiency =/= Lazy. All of those adds have extremely low HP but spawn away from the boss, forcing your DPS to have down time.

In Arboretum's case, nobody should take ANY damage during the Malboro's add phase. I particularly specified only the slimes, because the other adds during the second boss fight in Sirius HM have much higher HP than the slimes and need to die quickly to make the boss take damage properly. Second boss in Fractal gets "stun locked" and thus no damage goes out as long as adds are being popped and killed. Adds in the final boss of Fractal don't do damage in a direct way and thus any damage you're tossing onto the boss can easily be swapped over to them. The shadow of the first boss in Neverreap does negligible damage, and the faster it dies, the sooner the boss can be killed again.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

nd/or DPS needing Healer DPS to cover up for them.

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Literally no one here promoting healer DPS is asking healers to cover for them. They're promoting team efficiency.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

Also HEALERS don't ask for dps to help heal so Dps shouldn't ask healers to dps because they're slacking

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Edit: Note that this portion above the line only applies to this idea in general, not in relation to the situation listed in the OP.

Just.... no. These two things are hardly relevant to each other. Mob damage output is capped. Raid dps is not. At least, not until each raid member is throwing out as much damage as possible.

Should the dps just stop dpsing if they exceed a certain output? Should the tank stop using CDs if he's dying at *merely* a healable rate?
Moreover, should I not Second Wind after a raid AoE leaving me at 5% health, when I've already been picked for a DoT that will otherwise kill me within the next tick or two (cus'... that's not my role)?
You might call the top row here ridiculous, and the last row obvious, but they really amount to the same thing. The job of the raid, regardless of 'role', is to clear the content quickly, or, less obviously, to affect incoming vs. outgoing raid damage taken/deal as to clear as quickly as possible.

You're in charge of dealing with a limited input, but that doesn't mean you should sit around twiddling your thumbs as soon as you've met the requirements.
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Clearly, the dps here shouldn't have been shit. And in this particular case, you got the short end of the stick doubly. But we all carry those we can when they're not so prickly or disgusting that we can't wipe off the memory afterwards. The role, or multiplicity thereof, by which we carry them really doesn't matter.

There is no wrong or right answer here. If a player chooses to not dps oh well..... seriously is 2 to 5 extra mins really going to kill you? Are you guys that impatient or are you control freaks trying to force your way of doing things onto others? Who cares... For now on I will be taking my sweet time through dungeons as a tank... I will stop and smell the roses and enjoy the scenery.... So go ahead and dps away as a healer when the smokes clears you will find me off in a corner looking out at the deep woods enjoying what the devs created for us.... you like speed runs then get a pf group going...

I swear everyone here who hates the way another player plays are nothing but opinionated control freaks who have nothing better to do then freak out on everyone....:p If you have a problem with that oh well that is not my problem.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

I don't like this at all. I don't mind Healers contributing to a burning a boss down, but relying on Healers to not only do that, keep the party up, and do what is suppose to be DPS mechanics, is just wrong to me, and promotes lazy DPS.

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When a single Assize can wipe the room clean of adds, I don't see any reason why the DPS shouldn't just stay on the boss.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Are you guys that impatient or are you control freaks trying to force your way of doing things onto others? Who cares...

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This go both ways, should we accept that they force their play style on us (be it from a non DPS healer, a non Pet SCH/SMN, non CD user tank, no Darkside DRK, only Ice cuz pretty, and so on...)

Respect goes both ways, playing in an MMO means teamwork, everyone in the team needs to do his best and use all the tools he has. If you don't feel comfortable, talk with your group, accept advice and criticism.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

Sorry venting
Was on my healer doing my expert and roulette and this SMN kept saying I should dot or help dps
Now I'm fine with dpsing occasionally but that's not my job!

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WRONG. And the SMN was right.
Rule #1 as caster: A B C
Always Be Casting

If heal isn't needed, you DPS. You do NOT stand around 75% of the run because the group overgears the content, esp not as a Scholar that can DPS much better than a Whitemage can.
Every GCD you waste and stand around looking at your second screen to not be bored out of your skull makes your run go longer.


That being said: Obviously safety comes first. If you see your group fail basic mechanics and need to heal like crazy then by all means, do so. If they complain about you not DPSing: just tell them to play better so they get less damage and you get more breathing room to swap into cleric and hit stuff.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS.

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Yes it is.
Esp if you overgear content like you do in expert roulette when wearing 210. Trust me, you will stand around 75% of the time doing nothing if your group is even half competent.

You have to face up to the fact that healing in this game strays from the typical design. Fulltime healing is rarely needed and yes, you are expected to fill the gaps by contributing DPS.

IMHO: making the judgment call when it is safe to enter cleric and possibly have no heal on the tank for up to 7.5 seconds (5s cleric lock + 1GCD for the cast) is what makes healing fun.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

When I'm tanking I feel really bad when the healer keep me at 100% HP at all times, It feels like I'm doing so bad that I need a babysitter all times, I feel like trash.

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Understandable. But I WILL keep you at 100% if there is a mob with "final sting" involved. :<

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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DPS have abilities that can amplify healing/mitigate damage. I expect them to use them when appropriate, even if it costs them a GCD that could be used on a damage dealing ability, yes. making these calls is what separated a good player from an average one.

DPS doesn't have the tools needed to actually heal. Ever tried to heal with a BLM in heavensward? Yeah.. not going to happen anytime soon.
If they HAD the skills, yes I would expect them to use them in dire situations when the healer cannot cope after a mishap of the group.
Back in WoW-TBC I helped to prevent wipes as a shadowpriest by switching to healing in emergencies.

A great player uses all the tools in his arsenal at the right time.

I see a lot of wipes, even in easy 4-player dungeons, because the healer was too busy dealing damage to enemies...

A healer that let the party dies because he/she "was too busy doing damage" is always a bad healer, even if he/she is able to squeeze high dps.

The primary function of a healer is to keep the party alive, using buffs and removing debuffs. DPS is a secondary function.

When I play as healer, I attack the enemies whenever as possible, but keeping the party alive (and buffed) is my top priority.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

control freaks

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Perfect example of this community's big problem: Promoting good play is looked down upon.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

I don't like this at all. I don't mind Healers contributing to a burning a boss down, but relying on Healers to not only do that, keep the party up, and do what is suppose to be DPS mechanics, is just wrong to me, and promotes lazy DPS.

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Efficiency is the name of the game here. See that totem bird boss in Neverreap. DPS should not do the totem mechanic if they don't absolutely need to (3+ totems), because doing that mechanic as a DPS is just wasted DPS time.

I prefer to be WHM in Expert Duty Roulette. Its not a hard job after all.

Tank get some Heals-over-Time and Shields, then I can start spaming Aero III, Holy and Assize. If Tank drops below 50%, change to healing and everything is fine. With my FC-party, I just need around 15 minutes to clear Expert Duty because of doing additional damage as Healer.

You don't rely on healer's DPS for speedruns, sure it is noticeable and helpful at best but in the end it's a bonus for when others are doing their jobs well and it is ultimately the DPSers primary focus to ensure things die fast.

At Saint, even without the healer's damage the run should still take 20 minutes or so with good DPS (minus 3-4 minutes if the healer has enough room to do damage), so in short the people in your party are imbeciles and hypocrites.

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Originally Posted by Bobkitty

You don't rely on healer's DPS for speedruns

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I guess it depends on your definition of a speedrun... o_o

If you defended the OP on page 46, did you even read the rest of the thread?

There is no argument. The game is currently not designed to keep us healing 100% of the time. In most content, healers only need to heal 25-50% of the time, depending on the skill and gear of the healer-tank combo. No class has problems with MP management to where you need to not cast during that time, either. If you are choosing to deliberately not play when you could be contributing to the group's objective (which is the SAME for the whole group, no matter your role), then you are essentially harassing your group. They have every right to be mad. The excuse "It's not my job" doesn't work: your job is to clear the instance. Period. By any means necessary. Any other restriction on your play is self-imposed, arbitrary and artificially limiting.

I've said this before, but if you want to ONLY heal (or DPS or Tank), nobody can stop you from playing that way. Only the most obstinate people will kick you from the group. 95% of the playerbase is just going to sigh and move on. But PLEASE stop telling other healers to play this way, or telling other roles that this is acceptable. It's not: the game is not designed for this kind of play right now and until healing is 100% required (or they add support spells that increase group DPS more than we can contribute directly) the meta WILL NOT and SHOULD NOT change for you.

That said: just as a friendly reminder that 100% efficient play, while nice to have and should absolutely be positively reinforced 100% of the time, really shouldn't be an expectation when you're dealing with randoms in DF. This behavior, while annoying, will not prevent you from clearing your instance unless it's Savage. Your run will probably be faster and more efficient if you DON'T make a huge stink about it. If you mention it at all, be polite, and just roll your eyes and move on if they ignore you.

Mentor System will be fun, right?

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Found+t...ab_4140149.gif

[QUOTE=Judge_Xero;3512813]QUOTE]

SHOULD yes, but is rarely the case if ever in DF at least. I dont mind, really. I even asked one day a tank if he could pop some defensive skills, because well eos and me together Healing we were barely able ot make it...BARELY and I dont mean occasional heal. his answer was there was no need to use any of those.

Ergo why, personally, in DF I prefer by far Healing max then taking any chances, you have no idea what is out there as tanks...LOL...as I said, when you are in DF you never know, some start by using ALL their skills at once, and then what ? others dont use any at all, and some I dont need to bother Healing, those are my favourites I can DPS, and there is the only situation and is RARE where I can find a place I should always be.

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Originally Posted by HulveinBlitz

Mentor System will be fun, right?

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Dunno if this is because of the players wanting to DPS instead of jumping around or that those who jump around will possibly be helping people.

People don't have a problem with healers not dpsing while learning to heal or new. Its those that have full 210 and just choose the lazy option instead of helping out on the damage.

I was on my SMN the other night in Expert (trying to get the Plague Bringer chest), and we had this amazing PLD who was using CDs and mitigating damage like nobody's business. The SCH was literally standing around the entire dungeon throwing an occasional Physick up. Other than that he did absolutely nothing the whole dungeon.

Did he keep everyone alive? Yes.

Did I consider him a great healer? Hell no. Someone like that will never get a commendation from me.

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Originally Posted by Coldheart

A healer that let the party dies because he/she "was too busy doing damage" is always a bad healer, even if he/she is able to squeeze high dps.
The primary function of a healer is to keep the party alive, using buffs and removing debuffs. DPS is a secondary function.

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I wouldn't consider a healer that lets the party die because they are doing DPS a "Bad Healer". If they are attempting to push the limits of their class and make a calculated error, then it's all part of the learning curve, but at least they are making an effort.

I feel that the only truly bad healer would be one that lets the party die while not dealing damage.

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The consensus I get from the majority of the posts is that, due to fear of ridicule most healers are too scared to DPS while healing, so they push this idea that it just shouldn't happen to make themselves feel better at their job.

The term "Lazy Healer" should not be tossed around so lightly in that regard, and people in general should be more open to the concept of Healer DPS as well as understanding that mistakes are going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Perfect example of this community's big problem: Promoting good play is looked down upon.

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It's a two way street on this one. The ones promoting good play are not doing it in the best way all the time. Then again when people do it usually falls on someone who doesn't take criticism all that well and they get upset. Some people act in horrible ways for small things. They do it because they can and not suffer any consequences. It would be like someone not putting mustard on your sand-which on Subway so in return you follow them home and blast the whole family. Though I have seen someone go over the counter and tried to choke a person for not giving a free cookie! They got what was coming to them though.

Efficiency maybe the name of the game but are you really gaining that much more in some situations? You are right though for things like Totems. Still there are so many reasons to not DPS as a healer, but there's situations where you should DPS if you can.

I feel it's a lack of this being a MMO and you're not fully connected to other people so by the time you do end up doing things you either sail through with no one saying anything to you until things hit the wall. Still I'm not saying that you shouldn't give advice, but they should be able to take it too without getting so upset. This includes adjusting to situations where the healer might not be comfortable. Remember you're going into the instance as a team, and a team is a group of people who go out of their way to make each other look good.

I will DPS as a WHM to make the mobs go down faster and that tank thinking "wow the DPS are doing their job" I know some people will see it and give credit to the healer, but a lot of people respond with "Well I never..." and forget that just because they do something doesn't mean that's how the rest of the world (fictional or not) function. Tanks will duck and move, use Cooldowns and have me heal less so I can damage, or DPS who know their rotation so I'm not wasting a lot of my MP and things are dying quickly.

As a tank, and a very old one at that, I believe that the fact that everyone is doing what he's supposed to do is already a good thing : a Tank that tank properly without stressing too much the healer, a DPS that dps properly without taking aggro and the healer who keeps everyone alive all along the run. The fact that healer SHOULD dps during a run is actually a new thing to me since FF14 ARR. I've never seen something like this in FF11, WOW or any other MMos in my life and I can tell I had my share of tanking. However, over time, I came to believe that if a healer feels comfortable healing AND dpsing at the same time, fine by me. But never i will blame a healer that wants to heal only because he believes that its sole duty. Healer should dps ? its just because everyone just wants to finish a run fast like eating some fast food without enjoying your role. That's the way the players are now.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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Well, as a SMN you are expected to raise the dead before healers, but i rarely see any who do in pugs.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Well, as a SMN you are expected to raise the dead before healers, but i rarely see any who do in pugs.

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I will often raise if I can; however, usually my swiftcast is on cooldown from Shadowflare.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I was in Expert and we had this amazing PLD who was mitigating damage like nobody's business. The SCH was literally standing around the entire dungeon throwing an occasional Physick up. Other than that he did absolutely nothing the whole dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Razem5791

its just because everyone just wants to finish a run fast like eating some fast food without enjoying your role.

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It's exactly BECAUSE I want to enjoy my role that I dps as a healer.
But good to know that people get a full-course meal experience from standing around twiddling their thumbs doing nothing most of the time, or just afk-following someone else...:rolleyes:
If you actually enjoy being a healer, create situations in which actual skillful healing is required, since the game won't create them for you unless you are raiding.
Helping people get out faster of the same dungeon they have already run 500 times is just an added bonus.

Whoa, this thread keeps growing faster than my ability to read it.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

It's exactly BECAUSE I want to enjoy my role that I dps as a healer.
But good to know that people get a full-course meal experience from standing around twiddling their thumbs doing nothing most of the time, or just afk-following someone else...:rolleyes:
If you actually enjoy being a healer, create situations in which actual skillful healing is required, since the game won't create them for you unless you are raiding.
Helping people get out faster of the same dungeon they have already run 500 times is just an added bonus.

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The player shouldnt have to create those situation, that absolutely falls on the Devs.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I was on my SMN the other night in Expert (trying to get the Plague Bringer chest), and we had this amazing PLD who was using CDs and mitigating damage like nobody's business. The SCH was literally standing around the entire dungeon throwing an occasional Physick up. Other than that he did absolutely nothing the whole dungeon.

Did he keep everyone alive? Yes.

Did I consider him a great healer? Hell no. Someone like that will never get a commendation from me.

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and that's exactly the reason i don't want to play healer anymore. when i have to dps almost all the time, why not playing a dps class? this game has failed so hard in making healing interesting... the person who keep you alive, heals you through stupid is no longer part of the team. you >have< to bring one of them to the dungeon, but i don't even know why(?). their dps is bad. and nowadays you don't really need the heals.

it's just no fun anymore to play a healer. because of the overpowered 3.0 skills and the ilvl which increases waaay to fast. ilvl 170 dungeons? we are already ilvl 210... doing content unsynced with lvl 60? just remove the healer classes from the game or turn them into real dps classes with enough mana and accuracy _._

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Originally Posted by Tint

and that's exactly the reason i don't want to play healer anymore. when i have to dps almost all the time, why not playing a dps class? this game has failed so hard in making healing interesting... the person who keep you alive, heals you through stupid is no longer part of the team. you >have< to bring one of them to the dungeon, but i don't even know why(?). their dps is bad. and nowadays you don't really need the heals.

it's just no fun anymore to play a healer. because of the overpowered 3.0 skills and the ilvl which increases waaay to fast. ilvl 170 dungeons? we are already ilvl 210... doing content unsynced with lvl 60? just remove the healer classes from the game or turn them into real dps classes with enough mana and accuracy _._

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Interesting, I have the opposite opinion. It is what makes healing so fun in this game. Each run is much more dynamic than a DPS. When I go on a first pull as my SMN, I do the exact same rotation each time. With a healer, it's more like a few rotations mixed in with priorities. Like, if my tank is dying faster than normal, I can't spam as many holies, or if it's barely taking any damage, I can DPS way more etc. I find the weaving of a DPS rotation in with healing with different tanks/DPS makes for each run to be different than the last.

meh i usually get irradiated when im tanking and die because a healer was dpsing then throwing me heals instead.......

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

meh i usually get irradiated when im tanking and die because a healer was dpsing then throwing me heals instead.......

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If this happens more often than normal, it may not be the healer's fault

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Originally Posted by Odett

If this happens more often than normal, it may not be the healer's fault

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right because its never the healer's fault.

I play all three roles. With healer being my main role (SCH) I DPS when I can and makes it more better for me. Makes me active while running dungeons and it hones my skills. But that's just me. If I'm a tank or a dps and I see the healer not dpsing, I'm not gonna call them out or make a thread on the forums asking why healers don't dps. I just move on and finish the duty. I ain't losing sleep over it

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

right because its never the healer's fault.

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If you don't rotate your cooldowns correctly as a tank, yes, it is entirely your fault. A healer's task is not to babysit you, especially with the potential level of survivability that tanks have in this game.

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Originally Posted by Odett

If this happens more often than normal, it may not be the healer's fault

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You might be surprised how many healers I've seen go tunnel vision on DPS...and then not know what Bene/Tetra/Lustrate/Essential Dignity/etc. are...Even after I pop HG/Living Dead.

Or, heavens forbid, that one WHM I ran into once who said "I'm a DPS WHM, not a healer WHM."

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Originally Posted by Ironos

You might be surprised how many healers I've seen go tunnel vision on DPS...and then not know what Bene/Tetra/Lustrate/Essential Dignity/etc. are...Even after I pop HG/Living Dead.

Or, heavens forbid, that one WHM I ran into once who said "I'm a DPS WHM, not a healer WHM."

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maybe I'm incredibly lucky but I do my roulettes every day as a tank and I never encounter these problems

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Originally Posted by Odett

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im very aware how rotate defense cds when the time call for it but when im sitting at 10% hp more than a min then die because the healer is too busy dpsing a mob rather than keeping the tank alive it get annoying fast when it happens more that once. i dont really care if healers dps in fights as long they keep that party alive should be 1st objective. but if they cant mutitask maybe they should just heal and let players who que for dps let them worry about mobs.

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

im very aware how rotate defense cds when the time call for it

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When the time calls for it? You should always be using defensive cooldowns if you are being struck

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Originally Posted by Odett

When the time calls for it? You should always be using defensive cooldowns if you are being struck

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depends on the situation on mobs/boss fights im not going to blow all my defense cds because i got hit with a melee vs bout get slammed with a tank buster or if dmg is coming in real fast because of muti pulls. hell before i even do anything i check with the healer to see if there ok with how we do the run.

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

depends on the situation on mobs/boss fights im not going to blow all my defense cds because i got hit with a melee vs bout get slammed with a tank buster or if dmg is coming in real fast because of muti pulls. hell before i even do anything i check with the healer to see if there ok with how we do the run.

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That's not how tanking works, lol. You don't blow all your defensive cooldowns for anything because you're gonna have a giant phase of spike damage where you have nothing to use and you'll make your healer work harder. You have tons of cooldowns and each one can be used depending on what you're fighting and your current situation, but you never NOT use one if you are being hit by anything. If you die, and you had no defensive cooldowns up, then yes, it's more than likely your fault. If you overpull, and incorrectly gauge your cooldown usage, then that too, is more than likely your fault as well; that's part of our responsibility as tanks.

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Originally Posted by Odett

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not going to blow a cd on one mob......