So Second Coil has been destroyed

Haha Take that mercs! Ill be happily helping people beat t9 for that extra sold and the feel goods of helping people ^.- No complaints here! ^-^

My static was making good progress in second coil. It was actually fun. Now we don't have that option anymore and will probably go straight to t9.

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Originally Posted by Kyri

Haha Take that mercs! Ill be happily helping people beat t9 for that extra sold and the feel goods of helping people ^.- No complaints here! ^-^

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Wish was more people like you and less like this threads creator. The community would be far better of for it too. :)

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Originally Posted by Backflippinbadger

My static was making good progress in second coil. It was actually fun. Now we don't have that option anymore and will probably go straight to t9.

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Same way statics felt on BCoB that hadnt completed it yet, whats the point of this post. Everyone already knew this was coming. At least with BCoB it was a legitimate surprise to what the nerfs would entail.

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Originally Posted by Backflippinbadger

My static was making good progress in second coil. It was actually fun. Now we don't have that option anymore and will probably go straight to t9.

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Replace your higher than ilvl requirement gears currently ranging from mostly 110 to 120 on that character then try it, the challenge is still there. No option has been removed, it is as challenging as you want to make it just like all content in this game is but if you want to skip to T9 that's your choice.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/1ZV3D/arn....png?w=500&c=1

Im not upset because I'm an elitist wishing everyone would be miles behind me progression wise...

Im upset because I never got to try T8/9 without nerfs. T7 was the most challenging thing I got to face in game so far and I haven't even cleared it yet. part of this is due to me being lazy, but still... why nerf it? Its in the DF, and we have access to i120 gear... people cleared it in i92... 28ilvs is a pretty big buff to the player... why nerf it into the ground even more?

If I'm the one making it challenging, then it's no challenge at all. If I played an easy game while jumping on one foot and playing the harmonica it'd get harder, sure, but it's just not the same. The gear being better was enough of a nerf, and the fights were making us work better as a team. I don't want people who lagged behind to not have the option of tackling new content, I just want to have the option of tackling it as it was before.

And these aren't even mandatory fights anymore, there was no reason at all to nerf them like this.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Im not upset because I'm an elitist wishing everyone would be miles behind me progression wise...

Im upset because I never got to try T8/9 without nerfs. T7 was the most challenging thing I got to face in game so far and I haven't even cleared it yet. part of this is due to me being lazy, but still... why nerf it? Its in the DF, and we have access to i120 gear... people cleared it in i92... 28ilvs is a pretty big buff to the player... why nerf it into the ground even more?

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It needed the nerfs because it was added to DF and rightly so, running it with 7 other people from other servers that have never met before and only getting one session to learn and clear with that group is a a lot more challenging than running it with a static plus a lot more rewarding when pull it off in DF.

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Originally Posted by Backflippinbadger

If I'm the one making it challenging, then it's no challenge at all. If I played an easy game while jumping on one foot and playing the harmonica it'd get harder, sure, but it's just not the same. The gear being better was enough of a nerf, and the fights were making us work better as a team. I don't want people who lagged behind to not have the option of tackling new content, I just want to have the option of tackling it as it was before.

And these aren't even mandatory fights anymore, there was no reason at all to nerf them like this.

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...and second coil (savage) or final coil will still fill that purpose of needing better teamwork. Seems to me a lot of people whining about this complain how it is SE hand holding new players hands, helping them through very old content yet at same time they want SE to hold their hands because they do not want to put any effort into making it more challenging for themselves despite taking very little imagination or effort to do so on the players end.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

...and second coil or final coil will still fill that purpose of needing better teamwork. Seems to me a lot of people whining about this complain how it is SE hand holding new players hands, helping them through very old content yet at same time they want SE to hold their hands because they do not want to put any effort into making it more challenging for themselves.

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No it won't. Have you heard the results from day one DFs let alone in a couple weeks? T6 and T7 no longer exist. It's as easy if not easier than T1.

I don't see why anyone even cares. Vertical Progression is built this way, content that raiders have been raiding on is irrelevant in terms of gear usually in a few months with the way FFXIV has been updating the game. Unless we get more horizontal progression in the future the longevity of content is only expected to be around for a few months before they get nerfed down when new content that offers better gear is out.

It's currently why on my new char I don't even bother with raiding/EXs. I rather work on account achievements points/Relic Grinds because those quests/achievement points offer to me more longevity, then spending hours doing content that's only going to be obsolete and in all terms only need to be ran upwards of 10 times for achievements which can be acomplished after the nerfs.

I'd also advise anyone who is really angered about this you might want to consider looking for a different game. This will happen in the future with FCoB, and in the future if Vertical Progression stays in the expansion

The idea is to catch people up to the current end game content. SE has consistently done this for awhile now.

They don't want people stuck behind content walls for months/years. The idea is to catch you up, and then have more people focused on the current content.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

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You're responding to a point I'm not even making. The fights were actually enjoyable before, they were fun and challenging enough without being too punishing for our current skill level. I don't care if it got nerfed to help players who haven't beaten it yet, I want to be able to try that content because no, it is not old content yet, there hasn't been an insane increase in player power from gear that would make it trivial, and now we have to beat t9 straight away, which is considerably harder without proper teamwork and experience and hasn't been nerfed at all with the exception of echo - and we have twintania to prove that's in no way a guarantee of better results for DF. Before we do that, there's no t10 for us; and no, savage coil is not an apt substitute when the very thing we could avoid if the fights hadn't become essentially tank and spank is getting better gradually.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

If players can't clear SCoB they won't clear FCoB anyways, why move players into content they have no business being in? If someone can't clear Titan Hard Mode would you throw them into Titan EX? These changes just kick the can down the road and ensure more content will be nerfed because the players who will clear due to changes like this aren't able to clear the previous (easier, even before nerf) content anyways - so what chance will they have in even harder content?

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The logic here fails to some degree, obviously those people wont clear the newest hard content. The Nerf is in place so those people can do it. Its basicly like makeing the content accessable for them. Just think of it like them being 6 months behind. The same will happen with FCoB in 8-10 months too. This is something every MMO does with olde content, ease it up so casual players can get a taste too. its like new content for casuals

Remember the Armorer Quests? Midway though that story lien you are introduced to a Roegadin named Blansytr. He thinks that the Guildmaster letting her students know the art of armorsmithing is resulting in more shoddy armor being made, as opposed to quality armor. He points out that crappy armor could get someone killed and only wants experienced armorsmiths like himself to handle commissions, being very cynical about the guild's student's progress

The Guildmaster, H'annaza however is very idealistic and wants to help the students make quality armor despite what Blansytr thinks. And she thinks that is Blansytr had his way the art would die out.

I think the best comparison to the changes made in these turns comes down to this:

Imagine Titan EX, but landslide cannot knock you off. That is what people dislike, that is why people hate the changes made to second coil.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

I think the best comparison to the changes made in these turns comes down to this:

Imagine Titan EX, but landslide cannot knock you off. That is what people dislike, that is why people hate the changes made to second coil.

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Pretty much this. Even if this happened, I'd still be completely okay with it if I at least had the option of trying second coil as it was.

Opening it up to DF alone would of been fine. DFs do clear Titan EX/Leviathan/Ramuh. I'd say Ramuh's on a very similar level of difficulty to T7 for similar reasons.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Opening it up to DF alone would of been fine. DFs do clear Titan EX/Leviathan/Ramuh. I'd say Ramuh's on a very similar level of difficulty to T7 for similar reasons.

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No, it seriously would not. The difference between running say T5 or an EX in DF vs a static or even to some degree a PF is like comparing night and day. You clearly do not run many EX trials in DF if you think simply opening up to DF would of been the only thing needed. It is vastly more challenging running with complete strangers every time in DF compared to PF teams and statics. Opening up only to DF with no nerfs would make it a hundred times more challenging and difficult than already was.

The EX primals also have rewards that are much more sought after than substandard gear for an alt job.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

The EX primals also have rewards that are much more sought after than substandard gear for an alt job.

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Such as...? The same iLvl equipment (Or lower) as these instances and vanity weapons?

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Opening it up to DF alone would of been fine. DFs do clear Titan EX/Leviathan/Ramuh. I'd say Ramuh's on a very similar level of difficulty to T7 for similar reasons.

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You have a point, with DF its more quickly enter to coil and not wait so much for PF.
I'm dislike the nerf and change difficulty on Second Coil, really anger me but if the people increase and stay focused on learned, i hope benefits to all.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Exaggeration.

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Maybe Ragnarok sucks? I have no problems consistently clearing EX primals on Excalibur. This was made especially true after the nexus update ensuring more experienced players would be spamming trials to do lights. Alternatively you could just of added more desynth/4* mats to T6-9 to guarantee experienced players tagging along in DF. But sure, we should totally destroy these fights (and they have been totally destroyed, they're no longer even remotely challenging on any level whatsoever and are substantially easier than content which is introduced much earlier in the game IE Ultima HM.) Also you act like DF is purely harder, it isn't. You can make an unlimited # of attempts, and potentially be paired with people much better than you're used to playing with.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Remember the Armorer Quests?Midway though that story lien you are introduced to a Roegadin named Blansytr. He thinks that the Guildmaster letting her students know the art of armorsmithing is resulting in more shoddy armor being made, as opposed to quality armor. He points out that crappy armor could get someone killed and only wants experienced armorsmiths like himself to handle commissions, being very cynical about the guild's student's progress

The Guildmaster, H'annaza however is very idealistic and wants to help the students make quality armor despite what Blansytr thinks. And she thinks that is Blansytr had his way the art would die out.

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There's a lot of parallels you can draw from that story arc to end game raiding indeed. If the elitists keep squeezing out very person "that isn't up to their standards", then you will eventually choke the pool out of all potential recruits and kill the raiding scene entirely with their clique-ish like attitude towards things. At the same time, there will be a group of players that will never have the aptitude to raid because of their native skill level, and no amount of gear and/or nerfs will be able to allow them to succeed. S-E needs to strike the balance to allow enough players to proceed and keep the raiding pool relatively full without diluting it to the point where "everyone is bad".

To me, if you put raiding into (arbitrary numbering) math, it looks like this:

A + B + C + D + E + F + G > 2,000
A = (X)(Y) + Z
Y >= 60

A to G represents their individual raid scores
2,000 is the number to exceed to pass the raid check.
X = Practice Time (ranging from 0.5 to 2)
Y = Skill Level (ranging from 0 - 100, must exceed 60 or you will automatically fail your raid score check)
Z = Equipment Level (ranging from 0 - 100)

What S-E has done with these changes is adjust the 2,000 to about 1,500 and lower the minimum Y to like 40 (again, also my own arbitrary thought process being used).

By lowering the overall bar, there can now be more people who join the overall recruitment pool to keep raiders topped off in potential recruits for Final Coil. At this point, there will be some people who won't be able to do the latest raid but there will be others who can and thus preventing "the art from dying out".

I honestly don't see how this can be a bad thing. Elites will have their clears listed in their achievements before the nerf date, and should take pride in that. No need to scorn those who didn't complete it before hand because there could be a multitude of reasons for that happening.

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I think the very real complaint in this thread that I agree with are players wanting to see Second Coil in all its original glory and are now unable to due to the way S-E hammered the nerfs. Say what you will about "doing Savage Coil", Savage Coil isn't a facsimile of original Coil, instead it has INCREASED difficulty from original Coil, thus it is still not the same experience either. These players want to see Coil as how it was originally tuned, not how it was tuned for the bleeding edge of elite hardcore to handle. In some respects, keeping Coil as is and implementing a storyline-style Coil with these mechanical nerfs (as well as no loot) would've been more beneficial , and I can see the argument and logic behind that.

I'm looking forward to the threads about how t9 is sooooo much harder than 6-8 and it's not fair demanding nerfs.

Dramatic easing like this just kicks the can down the road. The same complaints we heard about 5 we will hear about 9. It's same shit different day. Those that can't complete it as designed will moan until the next hurdle is lowered. Those that jump it easily will moan how it was lowered. People just need to accept their capabilities. If you can't clear content until it's nerfed then WAIT PATIENTLY. It will come to you eventually. Stop demanding nerfs. They will happen in time. If you can high jump already then move forward. 47 paged of the same drivel as we saw 6 months ago and will see 6 months from now 8s terribly tiresom, but always entertaining!

/gets more popcorn.

There was a reason why people went "boo" on the Fanfest. No one wanted this nerf, people who got over the fight didn`t want it cause those turns are not hard at all and they were just fine for them, people who couldnt get them prior to nerf now can`t overcome the challenge other players did and feel like they are perpetually being left behind/giving handouts/playing easier content which is terrible because players like challenge, they like to achive things even if it takes them months to do so.

This nerf appeals to no one, has no reason to be, just like FCoB didn`t make any sense. SE needs to stop this policy of "everything 3 months or older needs to be nerfed to the ground". Communities can stand just so much powercreep and nerfing of content. The rising of iLvl cap was more than enough to face the challenges of SCoB for players that didn`t make it before patch.

They should bring this design to all games: the little gaps between jumps in the new Mario game should gradually close up over time so more players can experience seeing Princess Peach give Mario a kiss. Or if you wanted to do it on 2.41 terms you could simply level the entire world into a flat plane. Don't worry though, it came packaged with the lost levels and some sadistic Japanese ROMhack.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

There was a reason why people went "boo" on the Fanfest. No one wanted this nerf,

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I was at fanfest. I didn't boo, there were others around me that didn't boo either. Please don't speak for everyone, speak only for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

There was a reason why people went "boo" on the Fanfest. No one wanted this nerf, people who got over the fight didn`t want it cause those turns are not hard at all and they were just fine for them, people who couldnt get them prior to nerf now can`t overcome the challenge other players did and feel like they are perpetually being left behind/giving handouts/playing easier content which is terrible because players like challenge, they like to achive things even if it takes them months to do so.

This nerf appeals to no one, has no reason to be, just like FCoB didn`t make any sense. SE needs to stop this policy of "everything 3 months or older needs to be nerfed to the ground". Communities can stand just so much powercreep and nerfing of content.

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Just curious some boos at fanfest speaks for the entire player base? So i guess when no one wanted it SE just and went and did their own thing. time anyway.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

They should bring this design to all games: the little gaps between jumps in the new Mario game should gradually close up over time so more players can experience seeing Princess Peach give Mario a kiss. Or if you wanted to do it on 2.41 terms you could simply level the entire world into a flat plane. Don't worry though, it came packaged with the lost levels and some sadistic Japanese ROMhack.

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While I get your sarcasm, you have to remember that MMO's and Single player games are entirely two different beast. In single player games, you get to play by yourself and experience all the content by yourself and your pace, so if a particular boss or level is painfully hard, it doesn't matter - you get to control when you beat it. You don't have to wait for 7 other people to login to help you. Not so in MMO games. As the game gets older, newer players won't have the luxury of older players teaching them and guiding them through t6-9. In fact that's happening right now, with the most experience second coil raid players already turning there backs on it and moving onto t10-13. It's only logical and economical from SE standpoint to make slight nerfs to older harder content to get newer players and players with hectic schedules a chance to get caught up or atleast experience the content in some form (even if they don't clear it via DF)

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

This nerf appeals to no one, has no reason to be, just like FCoB didn`t make any sense. SE needs to stop this policy of "everything 3 months or older needs to be nerfed to the ground". Communities can stand just so much powercreep and nerfing of content. The rising of iLvl cap was more than enough to face the challenges of SCoB for players that didn`t make it before patch.

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It appeals to me, so I guess you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

It's only logical and economical from SE standpoint to make slight nerfs to older harder content to get newer players and players with hectic schedules a chance to get caught up or atleast experience the content in some form (even if they don't clear it via DF)

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Slight nerfs? T7 was basically gutted to the point where getting hit by a Renaud is more of a slight inconvenience than a mechanic at this point. I can understand making fights more forgiving but they made it about as easy as T1 is now.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

There was a reason why people went "boo" on the Fanfest. No one wanted this nerf

This nerf appeals to no one, has no reason to be, just like FCoB didn`t make any sense. SE needs to stop this policy of "everything 3 months or older needs to be nerfed to the ground".

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1. A roomful of people booing nerds is not an accurate cross-section of the entire fanbase.
2. SCoB is actually 6 months old now, and got the exact same treatment as BCoB, so there is precedent for this.
3. Savage Coil has remained untouched so if you really need a hard version of SCoB, there it is.
4. Get over it, because they won't be reverting the changes.

As an aside, what is it about Final Coil that doesn't make sense to you?

People need to stop saying if you still want a challenge do savage they are 2 totally different fights, T6 now is harder then T7, T7 is a complete joke you literally can ignore 80% of the mechanics and get the win these nerfs are totally different from the first coil there was reasoning behind it. The nerfs made doing titan easy mode harder than t7 and for all those people saying the guys complaining are going to lose gil or want to feel superior get your head out of your asses what most people want that you so deem elitests is people who play at a higher skill level or to challenge yourself all this has done is got mummy and daddy SE to hold your hand as you walk across the road to FCOB yes T9 is untouched but most of the people who won't clear will eventually buy it from the so called elitest jerks you so apparently hate

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Originally Posted by Xensai

...people who play at a higher skill level or to challenge yourself all this has done is got mummy and daddy SE to hold your hand as you walk across the road to FCOB yes T9 is untouched but most of the people who won't clear will eventually buy it from the so called elitest jerks you so apparently hate

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Yet you want mommy/daddy SE to hold your hand and make things challenging for you despite you have more than enough ways to make it challenging yourself despite the nerfs plus additional newer raid content which also challenges you without having to use an ounce of imagination in making the content more challenging for yourself. It goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

This nerf appeals to no one, has no reason to be, just like FCoB didn`t make any sense. SE needs to stop this policy of "everything 3 months or older needs to be nerfed to the ground". Communities can stand just so much powercreep and nerfing of content. The rising of iLvl cap was more than enough to face the challenges of SCoB for players that didn`t make it before patch.

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The contents of this thread alone proves you wrong, as well as the other thread which thanks SE for making this change.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Maybe Ragnarok sucks? I have no problems consistently clearing EX primals on Excalibur. This was made especially true after the nexus update ensuring more experienced players would be spamming trials to do lights. Alternatively you could just of added more desynth/4* mats to T6-9 to guarantee experienced players tagging along in DF. But sure, we should totally destroy these fights (and they have been totally destroyed, they're no longer even remotely challenging on any level whatsoever and are substantially easier than content which is introduced much earlier in the game IE Ultima HM.) Also you act like DF is purely harder, it isn't. You can make an unlimited # of attempts, and potentially be paired with people much better than you're used to playing with.

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Sorry to break it to you but DF is not only based on cross platform parties but also cross server, saying my server sucks and using that as an excuse when talking about DF is invalidated because of that. Your groups are made up from people from my server just like mine are made up also from people in yours, that is how DF works. All you have made apparent in this previous comment and the comment before it in regards to DF is you do not know what you are talking about on this issue.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Sorry to break it to you but DF is not only based on cross platform parties but also cross server, saying my server sucks and using that as an excuse when talking about DF is invalidated because of that. Your groups are made up from people from my server just like mine are made up also from people in yours. All you have made apparent in this previous comment and the comment before it in regards to DF is you do not know what you are talking about on this issue.

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Not really, they're in different server clusters, so you're never gonna play together.

And saying wanting the game to be challenging is wanting mommy and daddy to hold our hand is absolutely ludicrous. It's "no u" given form.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

I was at fanfest. I didn't boo, there were others around me that didn't boo either. Please don't speak for everyone, speak only for yourself.

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Agreed as I was there too. Just because people didn't cheer or boo'd means nothing.

You guys would be surprised what the percent of casual players are compare to the population of hardcore. Why you think Wow is so successful? If they never nerf anything, especially an 8 Months Contents and only cather to the hardcore the game wouldn't even do that well. This is SE ways of easing the contents for more casual players and old contents. It's not like 2nd Coil is relevant contents anymore.

There is Savage and Final Coil too you know.

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Originally Posted by Marisela

You guys would be surprised what the percent of casual players are compare to the population of hardcore. Why you think Wow is so successful? If they never nerf anything, especially an 8 Months Contents and only cather to the hardcore the game wouldn't even do that well. This is SE ways of easing the contents for more casual players and old contents. It's not like 2nd Coil is relevant contents anymore.

There is Savage and Final Coil too you know.

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If you say 2nd Coil isn't relevant then how is Savage Relevant? It's a more difficult series of fights with the same reward as fights that are now faceroll. More people have probably cleared T10-12 than Savage Coil 6-9, because there's actually a reason to run those fights aside from just busting your ass over a title.