Damage "taxes" deserve serious reconsideration

That dudes only argument in his last 100 comments is that melee difficult because 2 positionals and doesn't want to consider anything else.

besides all the arguments others here have already provided to him multiple times, I would like to argue that in fact, melees have to move around THE LEAST in current savage designs.
What does every single strat focus on? giving melee uptime. What does this mean? every team strategizes to make sure that the melees have to move AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE.
That mechanic where 8 people have to spread out? guess who have to spread out the furthest, the ranged and mages. While melee just have to move 3 inches to get into their quadrants.
Every mechanic that requires the entire team to spread out into their respective corners, the ranged and mages have to run out the furthest so we can give melee uptime by having them move as little as possible.

I would honestly love to see some kind of a statistic which maps the total amount of movement each role makes on average in a savage fight.

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Originally Posted by Housinginneed

That dudes only argument in his last 100 comments is that melee difficult because 2 positionals and doesn't want to consider anything else.

besides all the arguments others here have already provided to him multiple times, I would like to argue that in fact, melees have to move around THE LEAST in current savage designs.
What does every single strat focus on? giving melee uptime. What does this mean? every team strategizes to make sure that the melees have to move AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE.
That mechanic where 8 people have to spread out? guess who have to spread out the furthest, the ranged and mages. While melee just have to move 3 inches to get into their quadrants.
Every mechanic that requires the entire team to spread out into their respective corners, the ranged and mages have to run out the furthest so we can give melee uptime by having them move as little as possible.

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So far each of their arguments were very good trampolines to prove that melees have easy uptime, have support and very strong personal mitigation and are naturally sturdier.
Which makes them the safest choice in casual content and the least punished choice in hardcore content.

They helped arguing that the melee shouldn't be ahead due to their mobility and sturdyness.

But if we were to repeat arguments each time their repeat their own, we would go in an endless spiral.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Red Mage have to deal with mobility logistic nightmares such as door boss vents.

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Strange world we live in when the most subjectively easy job is now the objectively hardest job to play optimally. As both you and CKNovel have pointed out. Horrible mobility and horrible/nonexistent self mitigation.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

So far each of their arguments wee very good trampolines to prove that melees have easy uptime, have support and very strong personal mitigation and are naturally sturdier.
Which makes them the safest choice in casual content and the least punished choice in hardcore content.

They helped arguing that the melee shouldn't be ahead due to their mobility and sturdyness.

But if we were to repeat arguments each time their repeat their own, we would go in an endless spiral.

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I've read through that guys post history, because I was curious, and one of his earliest posts was about how he liked Monk's rework and how it made the job easy to play with Greased Lightning no longer requiring uptime and how little positionals it has now. So it seems to me he's just so desperate not to have his comfort job dethroned and will come up with anything to prove it's damage is justified.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

The monk had a good rework.
LG was crap, because it runned out to fast (no enemy, cutscene, not reachable) and the monk was without it to slow at the start (now he is the fastes meele in base form). He was nice in 5.3/4, because, he was so brain dead (i only moved, but didnt thinked much). With the beast chakra has he now something to build up again.
The only sad thing is the lost of his aura from LG4, the "lost" of elexier field (it was fun to Spam it, while running). And the positions is a question of taste (i like the lesser potitions)

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

I've read through that guys post history, because I was curious, and one of his earliest posts was about how he liked Monk's rework and how it made the job easy to play with Greased Lightning no longer requiring uptime and how little positionals it has now. So it seems to me he's just so desperate not to have his comfort job dethroned and will come up with anything to prove it's damage is justified.

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Would you look at that. Well, I'm not surprised. So far, every single person who has defended the current balance and how it's "fine" have 0 raiding experience or 0 raiding experience as a ranged physical or caster DPS. They only play melee and only know melee. I don't think I've seen anyone say that caster DPS or ranged physical should outdps any melee. We've only been asking to close the gap between the roles because the tax is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Would you look at that. Well, I'm not surprised. So far, every single person who has defended the current balance and how it's "fine" have 0 raiding experience or 0 raiding experience as a ranged physical or caster DPS. They only play melee and only know melee. I don't think I've seen anyone say that caster DPS or ranged physical should outdps any melee. We've only been asking to close the gap between the roles because the tax is ridiculous.

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I think BLM and MCH should out aDPS the melee that provide more support and utility. A NIN should never ever out DPS a MCH as long as NIN has Mug and MCH does not. Melee vs. ranged is irrelevant. The only thing that should matter is raid buffs. Fight design should include mechanics that challenge and "tax" both melee and ranged in different but equal ways. All jobs should be close to each other in rDPS, so every job's contribution to total DPS is relatively the same and you can play whatever style you have the most fun with without being a detriment. I do not believe utility such as Raise should lower rDPS, but should lower aDPS.

In these raids i feel like i have lost the second use (edit: i mean pourpose) of "corps a corps" and "displacement".. in other fights i could use em also like movement tools to get out of far/close aoes and move across the stage.. but now the hitboxes are so wide that if i use corps a corps i dont even move, and if i use displacement i'll kill myself down a pit or in fire

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I think BLM and MCH should out aDPS the melee that provide more support and utility. A NIN should never ever out DPS a MCH as long as NIN has Mug and MCH does not. Melee vs. ranged is irrelevant. The only thing that should matter is raid buffs. Fight design should include mechanics that challenge and "tax" both melee and ranged in different but equal ways. All jobs should be close to each other in rDPS, so every job's contribution to total DPS is relatively the same and you can play whatever style you have the most fun with without being a detriment. I do not believe utility such as Raise should lower rDPS, but should lower aDPS.

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I don't see Samurai having more "support" than MCH or BLM. Tactician > Addle > Feint imho, magic damage is stronger. Those are all role actions. BLM has Manaward, SAM and MCH have Second Wind. Samurai have Blood Bath but does it really matter?

Melees still need to be a little better because technically there's stil ltimes they may lose a GCD here and there. They might lose some positional. The issue is it isn't worth 8% to 10% difference.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I don't see Samurai having more "support" than MCH or BLM. Tactician > Addle > Feint imho, magic damage is stronger. Those are all role actions. BLM has Manaward, SAM and MCH have Second Wind. Samurai have Blood Bath but does it really matter?

Melees still need to be a little better because technically there's stil ltimes they may lose a GCD here and there. They might lose some positional. The issue is it isn't worth 8% to 10% difference.

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samurai also have third eye.

Aside from the dragoon, all melee have pretty powerful personal mitigations.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I don't see Samurai having more "support" than MCH or BLM. Tactician > Addle > Feint imho, magic damage is stronger. Those are all role actions. BLM has Manaward, SAM and MCH have Second Wind. Samurai have Blood Bath but does it really matter?

Melees still need to be a little better because technically there's stil ltimes they may lose a GCD here and there. They might lose some positional. The issue is it isn't worth 8% to 10% difference.

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Personally I think the BLM core job identity is "top damage no utility" and therefore whatever job design needs to be done (like removing Addle if necessary) for them to maintain that position should happen. So the top three DPS, currently, should be BLM > SAM > MCH. I don't think MCH should out DPS SAM, but it shouldn't be that far behind.

They don't need to be a little better for any arbitrary reason. Fight design just needs to be better. If they cannot consistently do proper fight design, then the "ranged tax" would apply, but only then. It's not because melee vs ranged as a core concept, but because of failure to properly design fights. Which is understandable, FF14 fight design is usually stellar and asking for even better is heinous, but it doesn't change factual ideals, and I refuse to accept a world where BLM should be behind SAM when both play optimally.

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Originally Posted by remiff

samurai also have third eye.

Aside from the dragoon, all melee have pretty powerful personal mitigations.

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Yeah but that again isn't game breaking. It wasn't an issue in DSR I had no personal mits on RDM outside of... 3 deaths over 4 months. It's pretty insignificant imho. Usually when you die it's because you missed a mit. Samurai's Second Wind, Bloodbath are active healing. I can also guarantee you and I'm not a Samurai main that Third Eye isn't held for mits for the damage reduction. It is used on CD whenever you take a hit to gain resources to do more DPS. This is the same with Assize on WHM. This is a DPS ability that happens to give healing.