Tank Scaling still a massive issue

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

You can meld 40 STR on your i320 VIT accessories and have a total of 80 STR with your 120+ VIT on the same accessory. What the hell is your gripe? You get your cake and can eat it too. Use Shirk with your co-tank and literally never lose hate, as it gets multiplied by 125% every 2 minutes.

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How in the hell are you melding 40 STR?

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Instead of adding STR to the accessories, they should have reverted the VIT no longer AP change.
It was an amazing change and they took 10 steps backwards when it was done.

Scaling off of Vit means you could have linear scaling for damage and survivability while also keeping it parallel to the dps who will be stronger. Proper mitigation/survivability should help damage too (in both rotation and stats). tying those things together bridges the disparity between tanks who like to mitigate and those who like to contribute damage as well.

Sure it allows tanks to double dip but it also allows them to manage the scaling to the power they expect of the tanks.

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I prefer this fix to the VIT/STR fiasco. I just think 50% would have been a better starting place. This was a bit on the low side, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Instead of adding STR to the accessories, they should have reverted the VIT no longer AP change.
It was an amazing change and they took 10 steps backwards when it was done.

Scaling off of Vit means you could have linear scaling for damage and survivability while also keeping it parallel to the dps who will be stronger. Proper mitigation/survivability should help damage too (in both rotation and stats). tying those things together bridges the disparity between tanks who like to mitigate and those who like to contribute damage as well.

Sure it allows tanks to double dip but it also allows them to manage the scaling to the power they expect of the tanks.

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We have been over this. Weakness only lowers STR/DEX/INT/MND, not VIT. In your scenario, tank DPS and HP are both governed by VIT. So, dying would not have any penalty for tanks at all? Do you think that's balanced?

First I just want to say I’m not upset at you in particular, my previous post came off a bit ruder than I meant. I’ve seen you post a lot around here and I like a lot of your ideas. I’m actually upset at SE who seem like they either can’t make up their minds on what they actually want us to be, or don’t have the gulls to actually enforce what they want.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Explain to me then that why Tanks cannot have the same damage range as DPS. Does it truly make you feel bad that a class you believe should be nothing more than an inanimate wall for all intent and purposes does more damage then you? Does it bother you that tanks in this game or others does not follow with your ancient belief that tanks should be a wall and nothing more. Who is the narrowminded one here?

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There is no real reason why Tanks can’t be a tankier dps class. It doesn’t bother me at all if that’s what the Tank role is meant to be, though the problem arises when SE says otherwise and the community refuses to relinquish HW dps meta.
It’s quite clear from SE’s recent doings that they do not want tanks to deal that much damage anymore. In the recent patch they gave us str on our accessories, like everyone has been asking for. Yet they gave us even less str than the i270 stuff that we’ve been using sing SB launch. It’s clear they don’t want to give tanks str, yet it’s all some tanks talk about. I’m not the one saying stop, SE is. The days of Tanks doing 80% of a dps’ damage are over and they’re not coming back. We have to get over it. I just want us to stop wasting our time yelling about str accessories so we can get some decent, worthwhile changes.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

The fact of the matter is that no matter how you cut or slice it. No matter how much you believe otherwise. Damage is king. Damage is what matters because damage contributes to the goal of the fight.

Do you know what the purpose of tanking and healing is? To allow damage to occur by insuring the survival of the DPS. Yes that's right. If you purely tank or purely heal, you will never win. Because if you do nothing to the enemy, you have no impact.

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This is true, you do need dps to kill the enemy, but I disagree that not doing a lot of damage means you have no impact. While it is true that the end goal is to defeat the enemy it’s a team effort in doing so, and each member of the team contributes to that goal in different ways. That’s how a team works. That’s how the “holy trinity” that FFXIV is based on is supposed to work. Things get boring if everyone has the same role.
Is taking the boss any less valuable than dealing damage to it? I don’t think so. Or at least it’s not supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Face it, tanking in this game is not how you like it not because of the community but because SE's design, whether they themselves are aware of it or not is about surviving ENOUGH and pouring the rest of your resources into something USEFUL. Which is, YOU GUESSED IT. DAMAGE. Whether it be indirectly through more effective mitigation allowing Healer offensive GCDS or your own personal output.

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I don’t blame the community for wanting to maximize tank damage. The community just does what is most efficient. What I do blame is SE’s terrible design.
It’s blatantly obvious that they have no idea what they want to do with the Tank role as a whole. There is something seriously wrong when at the very start of brand new content we can completely ignore our new i310 fending accessories , in favor of i270 slaying accessories and still tank without any issues. We are pretty much ignoring 120 ilevels of what is supposed to be our “main stat” and going unpunished for it. THAT is the real problem. Not our damage scaling, not str on accessories, not our pps. The problem is it’s that our “main stat” is effectively worthless and SE isn’t doing anything about it. We should be upset about that, not the str.
And no our “main stat” is not str, at least not according to SE.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I'd argue that more people would prefer offensive tanking then Dance Dance Revolution tanking. The popularity of tanks in HW and the DPS roles atleast support this theory. And as many people have attempted to point out in a derogatory and condescending manner, most here on the forums seem to prefer something that has a rewarding skill ceiling. (I.E DAMAGE).

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Tank roles in HW took a slight increase in popularity because of DRK. And even then it didn’t last long and wasn’t impactful enough to remove Tanks from being the “Adventurer in need” for long.
This is another misnomer though that the only way to make a Tank class fun, engaging, or skillful is with damage. TBN is a good example of how to make a good tank ability, we need more things like that.
All I’m saying is that it’s clear SE is not going to give us our HW damage back. They’re just not. No matter how much we whine and yell, tank dps is not something what they want. So what we should be doing is asking for things they might actually do.
Although nothing at all will help until some fundamental issues are fixed (content doesn’t hit hard enough, vit being a useless stat, boring mitigation skills, etc).

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

There is no real reason why Tanks can’t be a tankier dps class. It doesn’t bother me at all if that’s what the Tank role is meant to be, though the problem arises when SE says otherwise and the community refuses to relinquish HW dps meta.
It’s quite clear from SE’s recent doings that they do not want tanks to deal that much damage anymore. In the recent patch they gave us str on our accessories, like everyone has been asking for. Yet they gave us even less str than the i270 stuff that we’ve been using sing SB launch. It’s clear they don’t want to give tanks str, yet it’s all some tanks talk about. I’m not the one saying stop, SE is. The days of Tanks doing 80% of a dps’ damage are over and they’re not coming back. We have to get over it. I just want us to stop wasting our time yelling about str accessories so we can get some decent, worthwhile changes.

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I'd say, let people complain if they don't like certain things. If enough of the playerbase don't like the changes or the direction the devs are taking this game, I believe that the devs should know about it. Personally I like doing a lot of damage even as a tank, and I don't like the recent changes, but I still stick with my tank role because I have committed to a static group. I guess if they keep going toward this direction I'll just switch to a dps role or find a different game to play, but I don't think we should stop voicing our complaints and concerns to the devs, regardless of what they are thinking or have said in the past, they might change their mind in the future.

Btw about the "HW dps meta" where people run with i270 slaying accs before 4.05, you can't say that we're ignorant and unable to move on when that was arguably the optimal thing to do when you're skilled enough. All the top kill speed groups in susano/lakshmi bring tanks that obviously wear slaying accs, and I haven't seen a single group bringing tanks wearing vit accs come close to them in terms of total tank+healer dps. It's clear the devs wanted to kill the meta, but they failed miserably.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I don't understand this vocal minority of tanks who seem to want our damage nerfed.

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I understand the vocal minority that want agressive tanking to be the only way to go, I just don't agree with it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I understand the vocal minority that want agressive tanking to be the only way to go, I just don't agree with it.

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Make no mistake, YOU are the minority.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Make no mistake, YOU are the minority.

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You should remove your blinders...
Any vocal part of a community is a minority. Because the majority doesn't care and doesn't post on the forum.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You should remove your blinders...
Any vocal part of a community is a minority. Because the majority doesn't care and doesn't post on the forum.

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In game, whether FC chat, Linkshell, shout, whatever I have never seen anyone who mains a tank wanting a DPS nerf.

I only see that stuff on the forums.

"I don't want to have to DPS"

"I just want enmity moves"

"I should not have to do anything but sit there and spam taunt/provoke style moves and defensive cooldowns"

"I don't want more attack power, I want more HP"

These are all things I only see posted here on the OF, never in the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I understand the vocal minority that want agressive tanking to be the only way to go, I just don't agree with it.

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Consider this, we have only one tank that actually uses a shield. The other two are packing the biggest, heaviest weapons in the game, and are in many cases pushed as the aggressive offensively-focused tanks. Mind you, tanks cannot and should not be able to put out numbers on par with stuff like BLM and SAM, but it's not unreasonable to expect a good WAR to be able to put out roughly 70-80% of the DPS of a mid-high damage DPS class. Right now I'm pretty sure this is the case, but if accessories continue to provide such a meager amount of strength in relation to iLvl, tank DPS contribution will continue to dwindle and eventually we'll need enmity on abilities patched again.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

Consider this, we have only one tank that actually uses a shield. The other two are packing the biggest, heaviest weapons in the game, and are in many cases pushed as the aggressive offensively-focused tanks. Mind you, tanks cannot and should not be able to put out numbers on par with stuff like BLM and SAM, but it's not unreasonable to expect a good WAR to be able to put out roughly 70-80% of the DPS of a mid-high damage DPS class. Right now I'm pretty sure this is the case, but if accessories continue to provide such a meager amount of strength in relation to iLvl, tank DPS contribution will continue to dwindle and eventually we'll need enmity on abilities patched again.

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Let's swap this around.

What if the Melee DPS classes could survive 80% of an encounter's tank busters while putting out around 80% the threat of a Tank-stance Tank?