Seriously 3-5 minute repop on NMs?

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Well, there's actually a huge difference because it isn't much of a time sink if you only have to wait, for example, half an hour. Take an NM that pops every 24 hours, but you know that it will pop within a half hour window. It ceases to be a time sink. What is the issue with that?

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The issue is that the spawn becomes predictable, causing severe overcamping, meaning that most people will have to still camp it for several tens of spawns to even get a shot at the mob, turning the whole encounter into a timesink.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

it isn't much of a time sink if you only have to wait, for example, half an hour.

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bolded for emphazise

The only role long repop timers have is to make a rare spawn convenient for every region without oversupplying a NM. Make a 72 hour NM spawn at 8pm JP time, 8pm NA time, and 8pm EU time every 3 days. Half hour window, then it's over. Then everyone who wants a shot at it knows when it pops, has a convenient time that it pops, and it's still rare.

The hardcores will hate this, because it's convenient enough for the player base to beat their asses with.

You can have 24 hour public claim NMs. You just have to make them as convenient to camp for 90% of players as it is for the 10% poopsockers.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Actually a routine is simply a task that gets repeated over a period of time. Whether it's two hours or two days or two minutes, it still becomes a routine.

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The point is that it takes an awful lot longer for it to become routine.

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On the other hand drastically reducing accessibility to content means that the developer effectively developed content for just the few people that manage to get a shot at it. Advocating such a possibility in a game that already *lacks* content is rather funny.

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I'm not advocating that at all. Having an NM pop during a 30 minute window does not reduce accessibility for those who do not have a lot of time on their hands.

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"too frequently" is arbitrary.

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Ah, so we're playing word games. In that case, 'too infrequently' is equally arbitrary.

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Even with a short respawn timer, linkshells would have to organize in order to bring a sufficent number of people with the right class mix to the fight (if it's challenging enough). Which, by itself, makes the situation different than "the norm".

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You are still discounting the fact that many people enjoy the scarcity of these NMs. You don't enjoy that aspect, which is fine, but it is pointless vilifying those who do.

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Originally Posted by Carmillia

bolded for emphazise

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Bolding certain words only succeeds in stripping my statement of its context. What you seem to be suggesting is that we shouldn't have to wait at all. Are you advocating global pop NMs?

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Originally Posted by Clydey

It's all part of the appeal. No one is wrong here. It's about personal preference.

If you can fight Jorm every 2 hours, that fight would soon cease to become special. At least in my opinion. I don't want those epic fights, however you want to define it, to become the norm. I want them to occur rarely, thus enhancing the experience.

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I understand your argument better now. Thank you.

We do disagree, though. I do not believe it is philosophically a good idea to limit content to a subset of players. Respawn timers of greater than 2 hours effectively and practically do that (see my previous example).

But I do understand what you are saying. However the case, this is something that I wouldn't quit over. And I don't think anyone else should, either.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Well, there's actually a huge difference because it isn't much of a time sink if you only have to wait, for example, half an hour. Take an NM that pops every 24 hours, but you know that it will pop within a half hour window. It ceases to be a time sink. What is the issue with that?

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You know as well as I do that the window for a lot of big NMs in XI was alot longer than 30 mins. + read the end of the post you're quoting. It caused a fair deal of greedyness, botting, MPK'ing, and for lack of a better word assholeish behavior. :P the same would happen here if the NM's had large timmers.

The repop time is irrelevant on Besaid. So far we have an NM that has been glitched for 3 days with no action taken by SE even after hourly GM calls and numerous forum posts. So if you REALLY want a longass camp come on over to Besaid and wait for SE to fix Prince of Pestilence - you might have a 400hr pop on your hands.

Seriously, fix it SE.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The issue is that the spawn becomes predictable, causing severe overcamping, meaning that most people will have to still camp it for several tens of spawns to even get a shot at the mob, turning the whole encounter into a timesink.

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All spawns are going to be predictable to some extent. There is no getting away from that.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

You know as well as I do that the window for a lot of big NMs in XI was alot longer than 30 mins. + read the end of the post you're quoting. It caused a fair deal of greedy, botting, MPK'ing, and for lack of a better word assholeish behavior. :P the same would happen here if the NM's had large timmers.

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I know that. I'm suggesting 30 minute windows as some sort of compromise, however.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

The point is that it takes an awful lot longer for it to become routine.

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Nope. It's still a routine. A routine is simply an activity doing regularly. 2 days or 2 hours doesn't make a difference.

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I'm not advocating that at all. Having an NM pop during a 30 minute window does not reduce accessibility for those who do not have a lot of time on their hands.

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Of course it does. It's an extremely predictable spawn time, and turns the camp in an overcamped mess, meaning that people will very rarely even get a shot at the mob, bahving to wait another 30 minutes, then another 30, then another 30 and so forth. It's most definitely not "only" 30 minutes.

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Ah, so we're playing word games. In that case, 'too infrequently' is equally arbitrary.

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Luckily, the definition of a timesink is not.

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You are still discounting the fact that many people enjoy the scarcity of these NMs. You don't enjoy that aspect, which is fine, but it is pointless vilifying those who do.

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"Many"? Rather elastic definition of a vast minority of vocal elitists. Let's not pull people by the nose. Most of those enjoy keeping other people out of that "exclusive club", not the "scarcity" of the NM. There are quite a few example in this very thread.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

All spawns are going to be predictable to some extent. There is no getting away from that.

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There's getting away from that. It's exactly what we have now with very short timers. The timer is short, so people don't feel compelled to be there at every repop, and the number of people camping the same mob at the same time gets diluted considerably. In addition to that, people are encouraged to team up instead of competing with every other goon in sight, which is very conductive to a good community.
As it's exactly happening with the new NMs in FFXIV, mind you.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I understand your argument better now. Thank you.

We do disagree, though. I do not believe it is philosophically a good idea to limit content to a subset of players. Respawn timers of greater than 2 hours effectively and practically do that (see my previous example).

But I do understand what you are saying. However the case, this is something that I wouldn't quit over. And I don't think anyone else should, either.

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I wouldn't quit over it either. However, I would like to see some sort of balance struck. I'm not suggesting that long repops should be implemented globally, but rather only for the absolute strongest HNMs.

I think SE is trying to find that bridge with the hardcore and casual players and i feel like its gonna happen with NMs and dungeons/raids.

one thing about FFXI was that both NMs and dungeon-esque content were really difficult to complete.

i think with FFXIV, they are trying to make the NM part of the game very casual. anyone with limited time of play can go and find these NMs to kill for gear.

to appeal to the hardcore players, i think SE is going to make raids/dungeons really hard and it requires someone with a lil more time than others to dedicate themselves to completing these dungeons.

to make it fair, have dungeon gear slightly better than NM (non-HNM) gear.

i think this will appease both types of gamers

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I wouldn't quit over it either. However, I would like to see some sort of balance struck. I'm not suggesting that long repops should be implemented globally, but rather only for the absolute strongest HNMs.

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Honestly I don't think there's any possibility of mediation with people that want to effectively reduce the enjoyment of other players (that paid the same for the game), trying to keep them locked out of certain areas of content.
That attitude needs to go.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

No, it becomes routine if you shorten the timers to the extreme. Indeed, that's the very definition of routine. There is nothing routine about fighting an HNM that takes days to spawn. If they ceased to be special for you, then that is your problem. I can only imagine how routine those mobs would have become if they had popped every 2 hours, as you seem to be suggesting.

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Isn't it always "my problem" if a fight becomes routine? Regardless of what the spawn time is, different groups will be fighting the monster and it won't become "routine" for everyone all at once. It is a group-by-group basis no matter what the repop time is. If you have never fought the mob before it is an epic struggle while to some other group it is routine. Repop time has nothing to do with this, how the player perceives the difficulty of the encounter has everything to do with it. To some groups the fight becomes routine faster than to others, but as you said, that's their problem and has nothing to do with everyone else, since currently we do not have a hive-mind that we can share our experience and skill with as far as I know.

And if you think that there is nothing routine about fighting an HNM that takes days to spawn, you clearly did not even experience the content. Although to be fair, it wasn't only routine, it was routine and tedious as hell at the same time.

Your thought process makes little sense. If the mob is hard, it's no routine to beat it. The mob won't become routine for every group all at once. Simple as that. There are always people who find the encounter special, and those who don't. The only difference is whether people see the encounters as special and tedious or just special.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

The only role long repop timers have is to make a rare spawn convenient for every region without oversupplying a NM. Make a 72 hour NM spawn at 8pm JP time, 8pm NA time, and 8pm EU time every 3 days. Half hour window, then it's over. Then everyone who wants a shot at it knows when it pops, has a convenient time that it pops, and it's still rare.

The hardcores will hate this, because it's convenient enough for the player base to beat their asses with.

You can have 24 hour public claim NMs. You just have to make them as convenient to camp for 90% of players as it is for the 10% poopsockers.

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Then every 3 days the same LSs will camp it 3 times a day. Simple, lol. 8 people in one party isn't hard to coordinate...

Having to wait is just dumb. It's like "Hey guys lets go sit here for 2-3 hours to wait for an NM to spawn and if we get lucky enough to get the claim we only have a like 10% chance to get the item", that's just stupid. I have wasted so much time on FFXI sitting around waiting for a stupid NM to spawn and either not getting the claim or getting it several times and never getting the item I wanted. Half the time the NM were the lower level ones that were always being camped that any level 10,20, or 30 player could kill and I understand why some people liked that better. The idea of getting an item that is more rare and/or the challenge of getting the claim from somebody else but FFXI got to the point where you couldn't get claims unless you was cheating because people used claim bots.

So basically my point is I wouldn't mind if the NMs had maybe a 20-30 minute pop window at the most (unless it was HNM quality) and keep the current drop rates. But honestly I would like it how it is now(would prefer 10-15 minute pop windows over 5min) but make the NMs really hard and maybe even lower the drop rates to to cap at like 10% but they always drop normal items like they do now (So you can break them down for the Materia system thing that is on its way and you never feel cheated)

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Nope. It's still a routine. A routine is simply an activity doing regularly. 2 days or 2 hours doesn't make a difference.

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We are clearly using different definitions of 'routine'. You do realise that words often have multiple definitions, right?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/routine

'...dull or uninteresting; commonplace.'

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Of course it does. It's an extremely predictable spawn time, and turns the camp in an overcamped mess, meaning that people will very rarely even get a shot at the mob, bahving to wait another 30 minutes, then another 30, then another 30 and so forth. It's most definitely not "only" 30 minutes.

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Everyone still has a shot at the claim. I am no more likely to get the claim than you, yet you would not see me complaining.

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Luckily, the definition of a timesink is not.

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A lot of things can be counted as a time sink if you look at them cumulatively. Spending an extra 10 minutes in bed every morning is a time sink, assuming that's the reasoning you are clinging to.

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"Many"? Rather elastic definition of a vast minority of vocal elitists. Let's not pull people by the nose. Most of those enjoy keeping other people out of that "exclusive club", not the "scarcity" of the NM. There are quite a few example in this very thread.

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That's an assumption. I certainly don't feel that way and it would be naive of me to think of myself as somehow being especially sensitive to the needs of those pressed for time.

Mid level NMs don't need long ass timers, people. There comes a point where complaining about things not being challenging enough becomes absurd. Personally, I never want to see another 21-23 hour NM or one of those that only popped once a week again.

Come on though. Leaping Lizzy was ridiculously easy anyway, the only challenge was when it was extremely over camped by RMT. There were TWO spawns for it, which were completely independent, which often resulted in Lizzy repopping within the 5 minute window.

And having huge repops on Low level NMs is just such a waste of time. Everyone is just gonna come right back after an hour. Some of the biggest complaints already involve things that make people not play, like the Surplus system, and huge guild leve timers. When I was camping NMs with huge pop timers, everyone spent most of the spawn time/non-pop window time afk. Because standing around staring at a screen (or Darters) when nothing is going to happen for another 29 minutes is just not exciting.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

We are clearly using different definitions of 'routine'. You do realise that words often have multiple definitions, right?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/routine

'...dull or uninteresting; commonplace.'

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Which is a completely arbitrary definition. In any casse, as Betelgeuzah rightly stated, it's also your own task not to get burned out of content.

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Everyone still has a shot at the claim. I am no more likely to get the claim than you, yet you would not see me complaining.

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Radically lower chances = Radically lower accessibility. It's a steel-clad equation.

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A lot of things can be counted as a time sink if you look at them cumulatively. Spending an extra 10 minutes in bed every morning is a time sink, assuming that's the reasoning you are clinging to.

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There's a BIG different than wasting one's time (time -> sink) and spending one's time having fun during an engaging activity.
I don't pay to waste my time in bed, so the comparison is rather inappropriate.

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That's an assumption. I certainly don't feel that way and it would be naive of me to think of myself as somehow being especially sensitive to the needs of those pressed for time.

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You just have to read the thread. Especially the posts of the one that started it.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I know that. I'm suggesting 30 minute windows as some sort of compromise, however.

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It still wouldn't solve anything besides creating a mass of competition within the spawn windows as it was in XI. I don't get a sense of accomplishment quick claiming over 5 or so other parties. I get a sense of accomplishment when I kill something with a duo or trio that should take a whole party or more to kill. As mentioned earlier even XI is throwing away this notion of spending hours waiting for NMs.

I also don't really get this idea that everyone wants things spoon fed to them by having short timmers. If a NM takes 14 people to kill and takes 16 hours to spawn, guess what if that same nm took 30 mins to spawn, it would still take 14 people to kill it. It doesn't reduce the difficulty whatsoever. It just means the nm is alot more accessible regardless of your own personal play window. I love no lifing in mmo's, but I was never good at the waiting game. I feel annoyed sitting around waiting to kill something. That's time I could be using to farm, level, etc... It's even more annoying when you spend an entire night waiting for something to be outclaimed multiple times in a row on a nm that has a 1~3 hour repop.

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Originally Posted by Lusavari

Come on though. Leaping Lizzy was ridiculously easy anyway, the only challenge was when it was extremely over camped by RMT. There were TWO spawns for it, which were completely independent, which often resulted in Lizzy repopping within the 5 minute window.

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And the hour cooldown?

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I'm not suggesting that long repops should be implemented globally, but rather only for the absolute strongest HNMs.

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OK. But wouldn't the absolute strongest HNMs have other requirements to spawn in addition to the timer? If so, wouldn't having that timer be 3 to 5+ hours be excessive?

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

It still wouldn't solve anything besides creating a mass of competition within the spawn windows as it was in XI. I don't get a sense of accomplishment quick claiming over 5 or so other parties. I get a sense of accomplishment when I kill something with a duo or trio that should take a whole party or more to kill. As mentioned earlier even XI is throwing away this notion of spending hours waiting for NMs.

I also don't really get this idea that everyone wants things spoon fed to them by having short timmers. If a NM takes 14 people to kill and takes 16 hours to spawn, guess what if that same nm took 30 mins to spawn, it would still take 14 people to kill it. It doesn't reduce the difficulty whatsoever. It just means the nm is alot more accessible regardless of your own personal play window. I love no lifing in mmo's, but I was never good at the waiting game. I feel annoyed sitting around waiting to kill something. That's time I could be using to farm, level, etc... It's even more annoying when you spend an entire night waiting for something to be outclaimed multiple times in a row on a nm that has a 1~3 hour repop.

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I have explained that it's about scarcity. To some people, the rarity of these fights is part of the appeal. It's not part of the appeal to you, and that is absolutely fine. But like I said, it is pointless vilifying those who do enjoy that aspect of the game. It is all about personal preference. I can beat you over the head with that I like all day, but it won't change what you like. No one is wrong here.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

OK. But wouldn't the absolute strongest HNMs have other requirements to spawn in addition to the timer? If so, wouldn't having that timer be 3 to 5+ hours be excessive?

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No, just shorter windows. I haven't spent a great deal of time thinking about pop conditions, but I'm open to new ideas.

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Originally Posted by Visch

And the hour cooldown?

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Waiting doesn't add anything to a challenge. It adds to boredom.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I have explained that it's about scarcity. To some people, the rarity of these fights is part of the appeal. It's not part of the appeal to you, and that is absolutely fine. But like I said, it is pointless vilifying those who do enjoy that aspect of the game. It is all about personal preference. I can beat you over the head with that I like all day, but it won't change what you like. No one is wrong here.

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Pushing to reduce access to content for other paying customers, whether intentional or not (and most of the times it's intentional) is still in effect a damaging attitude that deserves criticism.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I have explained that it's about scarcity. To some people, the rarity of these fights is part of the appeal.

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And that rarity can be achieved through other means- like making the encounter so difficult that it can't be done without proper preparation and even then there's a good chance you won't win. And if you win, you are one of the few that get to do so.

That is much healthier way to promote rarity.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Waiting doesn't add anything to a challenge. It adds to boredom.



Pushing to reduce access to content for other paying customers, whether intentional or not (and most of the times it's intentional) is still in effect a damaging attitude that deserves criticism.

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I'm not doing that. Everyone would have access to it. My chance of claming would be no greater than someone who plays a couple of hours per day.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

And that rarity can be achieved through other means- like making the encounter so difficult that it can't be done without proper preparation and even then there's a good chance you won't win. And if you win, you are one of the few that get to do so.

That is much healthier way to promote rarity.

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I am all for that. I just don't want excessively short repop timers for the stronger NMs. I don't want to be able to fight Jormy every 2 hours. That takes away from the experience, at least for me.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I'm not doing that. Everyone would have access to it. My chance of claming would be no greater than someone who plays a couple of hours per day.

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Greatly lovered chances to fight the mob -> Greatly lowered accessibility.

As already said, there's no escape from that. In effect, by advocating a mechanism that considerably lowers the chances to get to fight a mob, you lock out people from the chance to fight it and enjoy content that should implemented for everyone.

The monsters that were introduced recently will be for low to mid ranked players in the future. They are items you can not buy so you have to do a little more effort to gain them. I don't see a problem with fast spawn times on them. I'm going to guess this is not gear that end - gamers will be wanting in the future. It's nice gear that the average player can wear and have a bit of fun to gain it. After camping many NM's on 11 such as VE, Stray Mary, Leaping Lizzy, etc., etc., etc., and wasting much time to get a low level item, I welcome this change in SE.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I am all for that. I just don't want excessively short repop timers for the stronger NMs. I don't want to be able to fight Jormy every 2 hours. That takes away from the experience, at least for me.

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With what I said, how is that even possible? With the preparation time and the difficulty of the encounter, you don't just go up there whenever you want and start pounding away. You aren't fighting Jormy every 2 hours, even though it might be up.

And when the encounter does become routine and you can choose to fight it over shorter timeframes, at that point the experience is no longer there. It has become routine. You don't want to be faced with tedious waiting when it becomes routine.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Greatly lovered chances to fight the mob -> Greatly lowered accessibility.

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That isn't what you said. You said I was suggesting reducing accessibility for other paying customers. It would be the same for everyone.

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As already said, there's no escape from that. In effect, by advocating a mechanism that considerably lowers the chances to get to fight a mob, you lock out people from the chance to fight it and enjoy content that should implemented for everyone.

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Like I said, everyone would have the same chance to claim it. No one is being excluded here.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I have explained that it's about scarcity. To some people, the rarity of these fights is part of the appeal. It's not part of the appeal to you, and that is absolutely fine. But like I said, it is pointless vilifying those who do enjoy that aspect of the game. It is all about personal preference. I can beat you over the head with that I like all day, but it won't change what you like. No one is wrong here.

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True, it's all personal preference. Like most arguements on preference it will come down to who is the minority. Like any other issue you can't please one group without upsetting the other. We'll see what they decide on when god level NMs are added.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

With what I said, how is that even possible? With the preparation time and the difficulty of the encounter, you don't just go up there whenever you want and start pounding away. You aren't fighting Jormy every 2 hours, even though it might be up.

And when the encounter does become routine and you can choose to fight it over shorter timeframes, at that point the experience is no longer there. It has become routine. You don't want to be faced with tedious waiting when it becomes routine.

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You keep hammering home your point as if your preference should be my preference. We clearly do not value the same things in an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Like I said, everyone would have the same chance to claim it. No one is being excluded here.

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Except those who don't claim it.

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You keep hammering home your point as if your preference should be my preference. We clearly do not value the same things in an MMO.

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Who the hell cares about preferences, I want a good game for the majority of the people and that means somebody's preferences are going to be ignored. Yours, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Except those who don't claim it.

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Which could just as easily be me.

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Who the hell cares about preferences, I want a good game for the majority of the people and that means somebody's preferences are going to be ignored. Yours, unfortunately.

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Everyone cares about preferences. What do you think you are promoting here? Your own preferences, of course.

Tougher Notorious Monsters are very welcome. Also it's great if an item is rarer than more common. People say that everyone is going to have it at some point because it's an MMO. People played FFXI for years and never got dalmatica and that was an NM drop. When you saw dalmatica it was impressive. There were a lot of things like that in FFXI. There were also a lot of alternatives so that people who didn't have as much time could get stuff as well. It just made things more varied.

But still I don't think the issue with notorious monsters is how tough or challenging it is, or how rare it's item is. I really feel it's the repop. When an NM that has a rare pop time due to something like lottery spawn and maybe an hour respawn and you see it, it makes your heart jump. The feeling made fighting leaping lizzy exciting even though it takes five hits to kill. I was trying to get a Thalassion Targe and all I did was kill Slippery Sykes twenty times (not exaggerating). The fight was incredibly boring and still took much longer than an hour to finally get my drop.

edited for quality assurance by koontakintay

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Which could just as easily be me.

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Uh-huh. If it can be avoided it should be avoided.

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Everyone cares about preferences. What do you think you are promoting here? Your own preferences, of course.

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Yes, and part of that promotion is to make up valid reasons for my preferences to be picked instead of yours. And if at this point all you can come up with is "my preferences are not any worse than yours" without backing it up in any way, I think everyone has seen enough regarding which preference is the superior preference. Yes, opinions are not created equal, and if you can't think up anything convincing to promote your preference, you have lost.