People Enjoy hard Games

Ah I see we are back to the “I’m gonna assume based on the thread title that people hold a position that nobody holds and counter said point with an epiphany I had that I think makes everyone else look stupid but is really just a point that’s already been bought up 19486821068282919 times in this thread already”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Ah I see we are back to the “I’m gonna assume based on the thread title that people hold a position that nobody holds and counter said point with an epiphany I had that I think makes everyone else look stupid but is really just a point that’s already been bought up 19486821068282919 times in this thread already”

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You are not speaking for the masses. Read it again. But I also am interested in the why of what you want? If you adjust ilvl that is something I can get on board with. But changing the difficulty level is another animal and that will gate people not everyone is at the same skill level as everyone else in life if that were true we would all be Olympic athletes except most gamers sit behind a computer and think they are some sudo made up gaming athlete lol

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Originally Posted by Snorky

You are not speaking for the masses. Read it again. But I also am interested in the why of what you want? If you adjust ilvl that is something I can get on board with. But changing the difficulty level is another animal and that will gate people not everyone is at the same skill level as everyone else in life if that were true we would all be Olympic athletes except most gamers sit behind a computer and think they are some sudo made up gaming athlete lol

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Can you or Val pls link me a comment I made that said I want CT to be any harder than correcting the ilvl sync that makes current CT a joke because for people so intent on telling others to not put words in people’s mouths you both seem so intent on accusing me of saying something I never said in the first place

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Originally Posted by Snorky

You are not speaking for the masses. Read it again. But I also am interested in the why of what you want? If you adjust ilvl that is something I can get on board with. But changing the difficulty level is another animal and that will gate people not everyone is at the same skill level as everyone else in life if that were true we would all be Olympic athletes except most gamers sit behind a computer and think they are some sudo made up gaming athlete lol

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For the last time, NOONE is advocating to increase the difficulty of content that is required for the MSQ (or even for daily/weekly grinds). All mechanics and stats can stay exactly the same. All that has been asked is to add an ilevel cap so that we do not outpower it as much as we do.

Will it make it harder than intended on release? No. Will it make it harder than it is now? Yes. Why? It isn't out geared as much. It is as simple as that. Anyone saying otherwise is burning down a strawman (and is therefore arguing in bad faith).

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Can you or Val pls link me a comment I made that said I want CT to be any harder than correcting the ilvl sync that makes current CT a joke because for people so intent on telling others to not put words in people’s mouths you both seem so intent on accusing me of saying something I never said in the first place

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But you still haven't answered the question of why? But okay I agree ilvl could use an adjustment. But since I am not privy to the data behind scenes I can't say with any degree of accuracy how much of one. I didn't put words in your mouth I just want you to answer the question of why you want it harder?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

For the last time, NOONE is advocating to increase the difficulty of content that is required for the MSQ (or even for daily/weekly grinds). All mechanics and stats can stay exactly the same. All that has been asked is to add an ilevel cap so that we do not outpower it as much as we do.

Will it make it harder than intended on release? No. Will it make it harder than it is now? Yes. Why? It isn't out geared as much. It is as simple as that. Anyone saying otherwise is burning down a strawman (and is therefore arguing in bad faith).

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That's not exactly true though there are people in this thread who want ct returned to it's old difficulty why are you changing the goal posts and gaslighting. If you didn't say it fine but someone in this thread did. So please read each post. Oh and you didn't answer the question "why do you personally want it harder? '

Believe it or not I want to see you happy playing this game. Of all the games I have played and I have played most Western games and a few eastern including wildstar, I like this one best. I am a old pvp person who realizes my limitations now. But aside I want everyone to be happy because the community in this game really is nice, it's one of the nicest most tolerate MMOs on the market. Personally I am happy to leave being the bestest to other people. As long as I can carry my weight I'm fine. I want you to be happy.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

But you still haven't answered the question of why? But okay I agree ilvl could use an adjustment. But since I am not privy to the data behind scenes I can't say with any degree of accuracy how much of one. I didn't put words in your mouth I just want you to answer the question of why you want it harder?

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I’ve answered it like 4 times but every time Val tells me it’s biased opinionated nonsense

Now I’m gonna put a stipulation here, this is mine and a group of people who I both interact with on discord and who I tried to drag into 14 but quit because of how boring the first 200 or so hours of the game are opinions

-I want it returned to its original difficulty so that people can see all its mechanics and interact with them correctly, half the wipes in CT are caused by people ignoring mechanics they shouldn’t because it’s CT and they have been taught they can ignore them (robot add cleaving the meteors on behemoth anyone or ignoring bone dragons adds) this slowing of the raid would better balance the alliance roulette because right now crystal tower is too quick to be worth equal rewards, sure the roulettes are to help new people but vets interacting with them is also essential, even square acknowledges this based on the changes being made

-CT currently does not present an accurate representation of what alliance raids are and it’s really not in a positive light, most alliance raids are a combination of AOE spam, some cryptic mechanics and a lot of personal (but very little party wide) responsibility CT is a set of striking dummies with a few instakill mechanics sprinkled in we could outsync (WOD in general is actually fine in this regard, angry mango retains most of his mechanics, the only one who really suffers in WOD is cloud because of her phase pushes and 5 headed dragon for just not having a lot of mechanics that are instakill so the ilvl sync means it’s not really dangerous to ignore them), I have had multiple people tell me that they found CT underwhelming on a first run and either contributed to them quitting or they later found out other alliance raids are better

-14 currently has a terrible difficulty scaling, I overall have the opinion the game is too easy but recognise the MSQ should be accessible (not current CT more like holminster switch) but right now the MSQ is completely flat in difficulty till about doma castle then randomly spikes up to the difficulty level it maintains beyond doma castle, all threatening duties in the 50 range are gone (~~this is Halloween~~ got made a solo duty, prae and castrum got a sideways change, chrysalis got nerfed, CT has been ilvl bloated, steps of faith has been redone), the 60 range never really had anything that was a big struggle on content, so rather than sloping up the difficulty you kinda just go CT->doma castle->shinryu->holminster, which I think is a bad difficulty curve

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Originally Posted by Snorky

But you still haven't answered the question of why? But okay I agree ilvl could use an adjustment. But since I am not privy to the data behind scenes I can't say with any degree of accuracy how much of one. I didn't put words in your mouth I just want you to answer the question of why you want it harder?

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People have answered you and vals question you both seem to be putting your fingers in your ears ignoring our answers while claiming what we say is opinion only while also not providing any evidence to back up you and vals claims. Me and multiple people answered you both but you both are dismissive of our answers while dismissing it as opinion only because you both dont like the answers we provide.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’ve answered it like 4 times but every time Val tells me it’s biased opinionated nonsense

Now I’m gonna put a stipulation here, this is mine and a group of people who I both interact with on discord and who I tried to drag into 14 but quit because of how boring the first 200 or so hours of the game are opinions

-I want it returned to its original difficulty
Snipped

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Thank you I completely understand your point of view now. You have friends who won't play because the first 200 hours is boring to them and you would like to enjoy the game with them. I think the dilemma lies in you and your friends are but one example. I also think if we change the dynamic to a lone player who has no friends comes into this game because maybe it is their first experience with a MMO or whatever for the sake of argument. They don't have all their gear yet it could be a wall for them. Now multiply that lone person by X. You see they can not and should not for the sake of a profitable business change their formula. On the same token you and your friends are also valuable assets to the company. So somewhere there has to be a line drawn. Crystal tower is intricately tried into the MSQ it should be accessible to all players it gives them a taste of raids. Look I understand your friends were bored, but there are different degrees of boredom. I personally have a problem with people going around saying 'im bored' it's childish when I hear it. If you are bored do something else. But, on this forum you will convince no one because everyone has their own ideas of how things should be. I have advice for anyone who is willing to take it. NO GAME is perfect. Therefore they cannot balance a game on the suggestions of a half dozen people on a forum.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

People have answered you and vals question you both seem to be putting your fingers in your ears ignoring our answers while claiming what we say is opinion only while also not providing any evidence to back up you and vals claims. Me and multiple people answered you both but you both are dismissive of our answers while dismissing it as opinion only because you both dont like the answers we provide.

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Please show me where you personally said why you, you want a change in difficulty to the MSQ? Please point to the post that says why you personally want this change? I see a lot of advice for the devs in many of these posts without real evidence that the majority of people want a change, I see opinions. I also see the same half dozen people who want it harder but have no evidence that a mass of people want it changed. Oh and here's a clue everything everyone says is opinion until they actually have a spread sheet of verifiable evidence to back it up otherwise it's just a theory. To include what I say to you, it's my opinion you can not change something with out real evidence that it needs to be changed.

Sorry I had to edit this for error and to say one last thing, RPGMMOs are not just about dungeons or raids, it's about quests, and social aspects, collecting things and being around people who make their own activities. They are not made to be one thing only. The whole premise is a living world in which to play in. Not just fighting monsters. You can do that in any other number of games. There is more to this game then dungeons and doing the duty roulette.

Cant find the forum post about trying to fix the item level other the cheese "one" however here is a reddit post about it with a poll.

all i can remember from the forum post was A person got there friend to play the game and they got access to LOA. the friend was excited to do there first raid. The op was telling them how it worked etc. They got into it and lets just say they was disappointed

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...raids_similar/

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Originally Posted by Axxion

Cant find the forum post about trying to fix the item level other the cheese "one" however here is a reddit post about it with a poll.

all i can remember from the forum post was A person got there friend to play the game and they got access to LOA. the friend was excited to do there first raid. The op was telling them how it worked etc. They got into it and lets just say they was disappointed

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...raids_similar/

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Not everyone reads reddit, forum posters reddit users are not good evidence for changing a game. Sorry but a poll on Reddit is not viable evidence. The only viable evidence is the evidence this company sanctions to gather.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Not everyone reads reddit, forum posters reddit users are not good evidence for changing a game. Sorry but a poll on Reddit is not viable evidence.

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Well yeah i know that lol but some would like them tweak the raids so you have to do the mechanic. Thats all i can pull because nobody likes tagging correctly on here

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Originally Posted by Alacran

https://media.thenerdstash.com/wp-co...3132041883.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru0dXDz9qoY

All evidence to the contrary.

Catering to the %1 is a great way to kill a game.

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Yeah a game that had nothing to do except attunement gated raids is surely a good comparision when people ask for MIDCORE content. Wildstar died before most people could even see the "supposedly" hardcore raids cause you had to drag every member through a slog of attunement that makes WoW Vanilla and BC look like FF14 clubbing.

FF14 already caters more to the 1% with ultimates than it does for people that want something inbetween savage and "i can clear this being afk"

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Please show me where you personally said why you, you want a change in difficulty to the MSQ? Please point to the post that says why you personally want this change? I see a lot of advice for the devs in many of these posts without real evidence that the majority of people want a change, I see opinions. I also see the same half dozen people who want it harder but have no evidence that a mass of people want it changed. Oh and here's a clue everything everyone says is opinion until they actually have a spread sheet of verifiable evidence to back it up otherwise it's just a theory. To include what I say to you, it's my opinion you can not change something with out real evidence that it needs to be changed.

Sorry I had to edit this for error and to say one last thing, RPGMMOs are not just about dungeons or raids, it's about quests, and social aspects, collecting things and being around people who make their own activities. They are not made to be one thing only. The whole premise is a living world in which to play in. Not just fighting monsters. You can do that in any other number of games. There is more to this game then dungeons and doing the duty roulette.

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I mentioned crystal tower before it became mandatory and when it originally released was not that much more difficult then it is now then was asked to provide evidence and told it was my opinion only. Then you and val claimed if they kept the difficulty as it originally was back then it would wall people off from advancing story while not providing evidence for both of your claims. Considering i been playing since arr released and played each crystal tower raid when it came out on release none of them were that difficult.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

snip

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I REALLY hope you understand that on the game forum people usually share their opinions, right?

Not like they can pinpoint location of a thousand individual players, visit them and commense a survey to acquire the -

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Originally Posted by Snorky

real evidence that the majority of people want a change

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You ask people to do the job of game's actual developers. A bit much, don't you think?

Of-freaking-course people are going to share their opinions on the game, because it is the only thing they can do.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

RPGMMOs are not just about dungeons or raids, it's about quests, and social aspects, collecting things and being around people who make their own activities. They are not made to be one thing only. The whole premise is a living world in which to play in. Not just fighting monsters. You can do that in any other number of games. There is more to this game then dungeons and doing the duty roulette.

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I am mostly sure this entire discussion will lead to nowhere and people are just screaming into the void out of desperation.

Square Enix, like all big corporates, will choose profit. That's why the game will remain in its current state (if not get even worse), because the vast majority of players, as you mentioned, don't give a flying chocobo arse about intersting combat and will prefer afking or RP in Limsa. What a great game.

Yeah, today I am in a bit pessimistic mood.

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

I REALLY hope you understand that on the game forum people usually share their opinions, right?

Not like they can pinpoint location of a thousand individual players, visit them and commense a survey to acquire the -



You ask people to do the job of game's actual developers. A bit much, don't you think?

Of-freaking-course people are going to share their opinions on the game, because it is the only thing they can do.



I am mostly sure this entire discussion will lead to nowhere and people are just screaming into the void out of desperation.

Square Enix, like all big corporates, will choose profit. That's why the game will remain in its current state (if not get even worse), because the vast majority of players, as you mentioned, don't give a flying chocobo arse about intersting combat and will prefer afking or RP in Limsa. What a great game.

Yeah, today I am in a bit pessimistic mood.

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I wanted to comment on your post, some people act like this game is failing because it won't change to what I want. That is my point. And I believe I said already people on this forum or Reddit or any other forum are giving opinions, some act like do this that or the third or else. They need to look at their own motives. If one thousand people are unhappy with this game what about the millions who are enjoying it? You see none of what is said here by the few who keep saying it are going to change anything. How many people play this game. A quick Google search led me to these numbers over 45 million people subscribe to this game,with a average of 1.5 million playing daily. This forum does not and reddit does not represent the true feelings of players. It can't according to the number of people. Player counter says as of right now there are at least 65k playing and I'm sure that number fluctuates upwards of over a million during prime time. My point is your opinions are yours to have but it does not and can not represent the majority of players. Why do you think people should be controlled in what aspects of the game they like? your comment on RP was a dig and personally doesn't interest me.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

I wanted to comment on your post, some people act like this game is failing because it won't change to what I want. That is my point. And I believe I said already people on this forum or Reddit or any other forum are giving opinions, some act like do this that or the third or else. They need to look at their own motives. If one thousand people are unhappy with this game what about the millions who are enjoying it? You see none of what is said here by the few who keep saying it are going to change anything. How many people play this game. A quick Google search led me to these numbers over 45 million people subscribe to this game,with a average of 1.5 million playing daily. This forum does not and reddit does not represent the true feelings of players. It can't according to the number of people. Player counter says as of right now there are at least 65k playing and I'm sure that number fluctuates upwards of over a million during prime time. My point is your opinions are yours to have but it does not and can not represent the majority of players.

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There is 45 million registered characters not subscribers and we don't have concrete data aside from luckybanco to show monthly active users. It doesn't count daily users and the data we have are guesses and estimates no one has the data to show how many people are subscribed or playing daily unless square releases that info publicly which they don't.

^the game has created 45 million accounts over its entire lifespan, at most 14 has about 1.3 people actively subscribed but we are never given data on how many log in

And the idea that “I shouldn’t share my opinion because there is so many people I’m probably in the minority” is a pessimistic way to look at things that would lead to feedback only being shared when the game is actively dying (ie pre 1.15), similarly assuming the majority hold the opinion that “the current way of doing whatever we are discussing is correct” is also damaging to discussion and just leads to stagnation

Edit quoting snoorky here I just have a bad habit of doing ^ for above post, I agree with you neiblehiem

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^the game has created 45 million accounts over its entire lifespan, at most 14 has about 1.3 people actively subscribed but we are never given data on how many log in

And the idea that “I shouldn’t share my opinion because there is so many people I’m probably in the minority” is a pessimistic way to look at things that would lead to feedback only being shared when the game is actively dying (ie pre 1.15), similarly assuming the majority hold the opinion that “the current way of doing whatever we are discussing is correct” is also damaging to discussion and just leads to stagnation

Edit quoting snoorky here I just have a bad habit of doing ^ for above post, I agree with you neiblehiem

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I agree with you also people look at the 45 million accounts created and assume its currently subscribed players and we have wow numbers of 3-5 million people logged in at once. Blizzard for a period of time is the only company that actively publicly published player numbers until they started declining and decided to not publicly publish numbers anymore. The reason 1.0 failed is because no feedback was provided or was ignored and they continued doing the opposite of player feedback. And there is also the case if people don't provide feedback the game stagnates.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

I also think if we change the dynamic to a lone player who has no friends comes into this game because maybe it is their first experience with a MMO or whatever for the sake of argument... So somewhere there has to be a line drawn... I personally have a problem with people going around saying 'im bored' it's childish when I hear it. If you are bored do something else... NO GAME is perfect.

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They've solved the problem for lone players. They can do any solo duty on very easy, and they can do any dungeon with Duty Support NOCs that will take as long as they need.

Even if 24 mans and 8 mans were returned to their original difficulties by fixing ilvl and action potencies, those players would be able to be carried through either AFK or on the ground, because that's how the game was originally tuned anyways.

Think of how many bosses used to permanently remove players from the field if they fell off and how healers didn't always have swift rez unless they went and learned it. Yet those players routinely succeeded in raids and trials with dead and ejected from the arena players.

They weren't somehow better than new players or mediocre ones today, the game is just well designed to be approachable and beatable.

Currently the game is just fine for players that are more interested in the story and not interested in the gameplay, but that's shame because it used to deliver BOTH. It's asking a lot for a player coming from most other games, and especially from other MMOs as most do not have such a heavy story focus as this one, to take people's words for it that the combat does get more interesting when you've spent 100 hours walking cutscene to cutscene and you just beat unlocked and cleared ST in 11 minutes, spending half that time waiting moving between bosses and trash.

Not to mention, they hardly even have the opportunity to be prepared for later difficulty as the MSQ exists today. There's relatively less time spent in combat on the way to max level just from exp sources alone, so of course they're gonna have a worse time with the combat that's still required, either because they're less ready it for it or because it's so fleeting for those that enjoy it.

The complaints of being bored are no more childish than you telling them to do something else. Do you not trust the people you're speaking with to consciously decide to take their time to post here because they think it matters? NOBODY has to be here, neither folks that are dissatisfied with how unengaging most of the game has become or the ones that hypothetically can't beat LotA with a decade of guides and knowledge on the Internet and in the minds of the community that 23 players will be drawn from, ready to support them through it.

It doesn't matter no one on this forum or Reddit is representative of the amount of people who actually play this game. That is my point, opinions are fine but they are not evidence.
Just want to drop this here,
https://www.dexerto.com/final-fantas...-2023-2112769/

I'm done arguing because it's always the same merry go round. Look below for the people who like to insult others. They put words in your mouth the twist what you say. I'm sorry if the truth hurts your feelings people below this post.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

It doesn't matter no one on this forum or Reddit is representative of the people who actually play this game.

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Right let's not provide feedback and let the game stagnate because some people think the game is perfect. Its ok to play a game and provide feedback for the game you play. Thats how we get games like 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

How many people play this game.

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Why are you so obsessed with numbers? Yeah, XIV has a lot of players, what a surprise! Looks like those who were developing the game made a good job to make it accessible! (at what cost I wonder...) Let's give them pat on the back, shall we?

Since when forumers are prohibited from posting their opinion? This place is created with intention for people to voice them, their discontent with the game included. And they have all rights to do so.

"You are the minority, so shut up!" - that's pretty much what are you telling us. Can you not, please?

The game is getting stagnant, and players are worriying about it for a good reason. Not today, but eventually this may cause big problems for XIV, and I don't want it to happen, because I have live experience how my favourite big MMO turned into crap over time. Because I also was told to "remain silent as a vocal minority", branded as "Doomer, naysayer and party pooper".

Once again, this entire discussion is just for people to vent. Bet the devs do not read any forums that are not JP. Nothing will change.

Oh, and look forward to 6.5 with 3rd Alliance Raid! Another bet that this will not be even remotely close to Orbonne or Paradigm's Breach. They don't have the stones to give us anything like TGC or Red Girl.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

. How many people play this game.

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This argument never works because when you realize one of the most played games - league of legends - is infinitely more complex than FF14.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

It doesn't matter no one on this forum or Reddit is representative of the amount of people who actually play this game. That is my point, opinions are fine but they are not evidence.

I'm done arguing because it's always the same merry go round. Look below for the people who like to insult others. They put words in your mouth the twist what you say. I'm sorry if the truth hurts your feelings people below this post.

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"lets not complain because there are players in the game so it doesnt matter"

absolute worst take i've seen at least today

does the game need to have literally only you left to have the right to complain?

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

Since when forumers are prohibited from posting their opinion? This place is created with intention for people to voice them, their discontent with the game included. And they have all rights to do so.

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Something I feel is taken for granted, actually. Technically, no-one has the "right" to do/say anything on a forum that belongs to a company.

I was permabanned from the forum of another game for expressing a negative opinion - I commented, that the CM of said game needed to learn how to use a spellcheck and how to proof-read his sloppy blogs and news posts, and actually learn how to make a professional looking customer-facing product, and that there wasn't really any excuse for said CM's work to be so sloppy after six years doing the job.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Something I feel is taken for granted, actually. Technically, no-one has the "right" to do/say anything on a forum that belongs to a company.

I was permabanned from the forum of another game for expressing a negative opinion - I commented, that the CM of said game needed to learn how to use a spellcheck and how to proof-read his sloppy blogs and news posts, and actually learn how to make a professional looking customer-facing product, and that there wasn't really any excuse for said CM's work to be so sloppy after six years doing the job.

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Actually yes, everybody has the right to not only access, but also voice opinions on the forums of a company.

If anything they should be grateful we use this forum that looks like it was made in 1995 and has a daily quota of 20 posts, barely letting its players have a decent conversation between each other, something I have personally never seen anywhere else in almost 20 years of gaming

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Originally Posted by SophiaDL

Actually yes, everybody has the right to not only access, but also voice opinions on the forums of a company.

If anything they should be grateful we use this forum that looks like it was made in 1995 and has a daily quota of 20 posts, barely letting its players have a decent conversation between each other, something I have personally never seen anywhere else in almost 20 years of gaming

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But they don't. It's right there, in the SE Forum Terms of Service which we accepted by using the forum:
(missing out the usual disclaimer text)
"Posting seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix, the forum, FINAL FANTASY XIV, or others."
and there are other examples

Granted, they don't actually enforce this - but the fact is, they could.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

That's not exactly true though there are people in this thread who want ct returned to it's old difficulty why are you changing the goal posts and gaslighting. If you didn't say it fine but someone in this thread did. So please read each post. Oh and you didn't answer the question "why do you personally want it harder? '

Believe it or not I want to see you happy playing this game. Of all the games I have played and I have played most Western games and a few eastern including wildstar, I like this one best. I am a old pvp person who realizes my limitations now. But aside I want everyone to be happy because the community in this game really is nice, it's one of the nicest most tolerate MMOs on the market. Personally I am happy to leave being the bestest to other people. As long as I can carry my weight I'm fine. I want you to be happy.

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I never changed the goal posts. The goalposts have always been, bring CT back to close to its original difficulty by putting an ilevel cap on it. That is it. If one person said they want to increase the difficulty, that is fine, I misspoke. I should have said the general consensus was to include an ilevel cap.

As for why I want it harder, I want it to have a bit of bite back. Just a bit so that I actually have to have some sort of attention on it.

HOWEVER, this does not mean make it stupidly hard, quite the contrary. Despite adding in an ilevel cap, it will still be easy, however it will give a better reflection of what an alliance raid is like.

Now, back to my question that so far has not been answered. Why do you think adding in an ilevel cap would suddenly hard wall players from progressing when evidence shows this is not even remotely true at all?

A better question: There have been number of complaints about players deliberately reducing gear levels to 'rig' the system in the daily Roulette. What does this say about the desired difficulty level of such Roulettes?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

A better question: There have been number of complaints about players deliberately reducing gear levels to 'rig' the system in the daily Roulette. What does this say about the desired difficulty level of such Roulettes?

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There is a difference between difficulty you can enjoy and difficulty that serves no purpose. Pretty much all of the difficulty in, for example, Alliance roulettes comes from having the misfortune of being grouped with people that can't or won't improve anyway. Since those people are now extremely common, you might see how this is seen as a problem. Ever fought Thunder God Cid with people that absolutely refuse to learn from their mistakes? It's not pretty. Fight's not even really hard, but it can go downhill real fast once people start dropping.

The repetition is also a big problem, but you know what would fix that? Memorable, fun encounters that present an adequate challenge. I'm well aware they can't make anything in the roulettes prohibitively hard, but there are options available for adding worthwhile challenges without them either rendering less skilled players incapable of contributing or making the fights annoying instead of challenging. Annoying vs challenging is an important distinction to make, as we've seen many times in the game already. Most of the people manipulating the queue through item level aren't doing it because the content is too "hard." They're doing it because it's annoying, and wiping repeatedly because of people that refuse to play the game correctly just adds to the irritation. People just want to get it done and over with.

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I want it returned to its original difficulty so that people can see all its mechanics and interact with them correctly, half the wipes in CT are caused by people ignoring mechanics they shouldn’t because it’s CT and they have been taught they can ignore them (robot add cleaving the meteors on behemoth anyone or ignoring bone dragons adds) this slowing of the raid would better balance the alliance roulette because right now crystal tower is too quick to be worth equal rewards, sure the roulettes are to help new people but vets interacting with them is also essential, even square acknowledges this based on the changes being made

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< snip for post size - and I DID read it all, I just had to truncate the post for text size - sorry..>

Thank you. MUCH better.

This is what i was looking for. You may die of shock when you see my next words.

We agree.

I think you raise a lot of valid points, your comments on mechanics are, quite frankly, dead on the mark.

WOD has its issues and IMO its more punishing than the first series, which is a step up in difficulty. The main issue and key element is balancing this with the fact that everyone has to run it for MSQ, so that HAS to be a consideration when setting difficulty. It should be a challenge, it should be a little harder maybe, but it MUST have a breakpoint so it isnt that hard for people who have..and I will say this..varying levels of skill.

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-14 currently has a terrible difficulty scaling,

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I dont think its scaling. I think it is more to do with power creep and ilevel changes over the years, which presents its own problems outside of actual instance difficulty. The two are separate issues.

Dealing with that is more complicated than you can imagine, and I dont have an answer on how that can be done.

Super: Part of what I used to do on a daily basis was planning, and that required a decision tree..if you have never seen one, a decision tree starts with the basic premise then looks at variables, if x then maybe y or z but can go to B instead.

My specific argument was that you MUST factor in the Murphy factor, and what to do if and when your concept goes south.

The idea of 'that cant happen" is at the heart of a LOT of games company snitchups, where they did something and did NOT look to what to do if and when it backfired on them.

NEVER assume it cant go wrong. It CAN happen.

It will.

Bet on it.

Plan for it and be certain that you arent falling into the old trap "We have to do Something -> this is Something so lets do it -> oh HELL we screwed up -> reverse it quickly -> WHY didnt we plan ahead for what could go wrong.

You have given me a lot to think about, and I thank you.

(Now... do you need smelling salts or will coffee do? :p:p:p )

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

A better question: There have been number of complaints about players deliberately reducing gear levels to 'rig' the system in the daily Roulette. What does this say about the desired difficulty level of such Roulettes?

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People will always find and take the easiest route possible, if given the means to do so.

The devs let people cheat ilvl system for nearly a decade. Its only recently that they've finally decided to do something about this. Probably because they finally noticed other raids are being grossly neglected in the form of lack of playthrough compared to the Crystal Tower raids, which have had a constant overflow of players going through it for the longest time.

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People will always find and take the easiest route possible, if given the means to do so.

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TBH thats human nature across the board, mind you, the other side of that coin is work smarter not harder. If you can find an easier way to accomplish the same goal, that isnt always a bad thing.

I’ve said this many times, so just repeating myself really:

The way FFXIV is built, currently, the Crystal Tower raids could very well be a player’s first time they are forced to party with real players. Up until that point, they could bumble through the entire game without any need to really “learn” the game.

In addition, this is available to non-paying players and is (currently) the only 24-raid required to progress the MSQ.

Neither of these justify it being so awful, but it is important to be aware that it is probably by design to be so stupidly easy because they want to retain players (eventually to become paying customers!) and ease them into feeling raiding can be “fun” for them.

IMHO, CT series should be turned into an NPC dungeon series and removed from roulette entirely. I would love to go back to old school CT, but as is the devs have chose a solution that “works”… however band-aided it may be.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

The way FFXIV is built, currently, the Crystal Tower raids could very well be a player’s first time they are forced to party with real players. Up until that point, they could bumble through the entire game without any need to really “learn” the game.

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If they know to go unlock it right after Ultimate Weapon. But it's not required in post-ARR MSQ until the quest where you find Wilred's body so new people will do Mog, Ramuh, Levi, Shiva, and the HM primals before that.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

TBH thats human nature across the board, mind you, the other side of that coin is work smarter not harder. If you can find an easier way to accomplish the same goal, that isnt always a bad thing.

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True. Though in FFXIV's case, the bad thing with daily roulette cheesing is taking away the enjoyment of potentially getting a roulette raid you actually want to do while earning the daily roulette prize because one random person just wants to do the easiest raid to get their prize faster.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I’ve said this many times, so just repeating myself really:

The way FFXIV is built, currently, the Crystal Tower raids could very well be a player’s first time they are forced to party with real players. Up until that point, they could bumble through the entire game without any need to really “learn” the game.

In addition, this is available to non-paying players and is (currently) the only 24-raid required to progress the MSQ.

Neither of these justify it being so awful, but it is important to be aware that it is probably by design to be so stupidly easy because they want to retain players (eventually to become paying customers!) and ease them into feeling raiding can be “fun” for them.

IMHO, CT series should be turned into an NPC dungeon series and removed from roulette entirely. I would love to go back to old school CT, but as is the devs have chose a solution that “works”… however band-aided it may be.

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Nerfing the ilvl sync so that people do the CT raids at the ilvl range the raid were actually added would provide a proper experience to party mechanics and content that supports more than 4 players. The way CT is now I fail to see how a new person being barely able to do anything during the raid as people faceroll the whole thing before you even see a majority of the boss or arena mechanics will provide a positive experience in retaining those new players or getting them to sub if they're on the free version.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

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Anecdote, but still a decently funny/telling one: A friend I introduced to the game likes to use Trusts at least once per dungeon, usually for his first clear. Rarely doing them myself, I asked why, since he seemed played well and didn't seem paranoid about holding others back or the like.

His response was something to the tune of, "Usually the players I get through matchmaking kill everything so quickly that I rarely get to really see what the mechanics do, which just makes everything feel really... half-assed. Trusts feel a bit long and more artificial (duh), but at least I get to see everything through and I can't win that time around if I make a fatal mistake."