Tank healing is to high

'Lmao I made a fight take 3 times as long compared to just going to a wall and trying again. That sure showed them! If the devs didn't want me to, they would've made it impossible.'

It being that easy is indeed the issue. Yes it would be faster to reset, but it isn't "necessary".

He asked how its a dick move and that's why. He made the encounter longer while also cursing them to not even be able to actually play during that (longer) time and saying its not his fault, its the devs'.

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Originally Posted by Weetzlo

He asked how its a dick move and that's why. He made the encounter longer while also cursing them to not even be able to actually play during that (longer) time and saying its not his fault, its the devs'.

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Aight, and what makes you think they're not just going to die to mechanics again? I have seen more than a few times in this expansion alone where the party, despite multiple opportunities to learn, simply would not or could not perform mechanics sufficiently to survive to the end of a boss fight. After about the third time, yes, it is perfectly acceptable to sit there and solo the boss because there's no way you are getting past it otherwise. That is not a dick move, that is carrying people so you can finish the place.

That's not really the issue being discussed though.
The issue is how easy it is do end up in that situation in the first place.

After jumping on my whm today because I wanted to come out of retirement.. I got in groups with several WARs. Healing them felt no different than it did back in Shadowbringers. Just hold off on everything til all their stuff is used and take care of them until they are back up.

I haven't gone a run yet where I didn't need to heal a WAR at all and there was some close calls too. I'd like to think they are aware that their stuff ain't gonna be up at a given moment and it takes knowing the dungeon/fight/boss to really get the most out of the self healing.

As a reminder, WAR is the job that can solo extremes and some of the easier (that I know of) savages and since Heavensward, has been the self healing tank king. Sorry PLD's but clemency keeps you from dpsing.

PLDs - same deal here.
GNBs - I actually struggle a bit with them, no idea why.
DRKs - Yeah you're gonna think all my wipes came with DRK tanks, but nope.

PLD no longer needs to Clemency itself. Holy Spirit and Holy Circle both have a substantial heal attached to them, making the Requiescat window effectively a bootleg version of Raw Intuition. Clemency is now just an emergency button -- one most PLDs will never need to touch unless it is for the benefit of another player. They can't match WAR in terms of raw healing ability even if utilizing their entire toolkit for that purpose, but it does make them require substantially less healing than almost any other job.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

PLD no longer needs to Clemency itself. Holy Spirit and Holy Circle both have a substantial heal attached to them, making the Requiescat window effectively a bootleg version of Raw Intuition. Clemency is now just an emergency button -- one most PLDs will never need to touch unless it is for the benefit of another player. They can't match WAR in terms of raw healing ability even if utilizing their entire toolkit for that purpose, but it does make them require substantially less healing than almost any other job.

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????? It's always been an emergency heal button the Clemency, it originally killed Reqs and continues to disrupt combos.

I'm not saying it wasn't? I am saying there's near-zero reason to ever use it on yourself. The phrasing is to make the point abundantly clear, as a lot of people for some reason thought (and still think) Clemency should be used regularly. Even in an emergency situation Holy Spirit/Circle will more than suffice as a source of self-healing.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

After jumping on my whm today because I wanted to come out of retirement.. I got in groups with several WARs. Healing them felt no different than it did back in Shadowbringers. Just hold off on everything til all their stuff is used and take care of them until they are back up.

I haven't gone a run yet where I didn't need to heal a WAR at all and there was some close calls too. I'd like to think they are aware that their stuff ain't gonna be up at a given moment and it takes knowing the dungeon/fight/boss to really get the most out of the self healing.

As a reminder, WAR is the job that can solo extremes and some of the easier (that I know of) savages and since Heavensward, has been the self healing tank king. Sorry PLD's but clemency keeps you from dpsing.

PLDs - same deal here.
GNBs - I actually struggle a bit with them, no idea why.
DRKs - Yeah you're gonna think all my wipes came with DRK tanks, but nope.

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While it's not going to be every player, I've run in multiple current expert dungeons with 1 warrior and 3 dps and cleared in under 15 minutes. Handy if your farming aphorism tomes, but it makes the other tanks and most healers feel kinda useless outside of trials/raids. The simple fact that a decent, casual player with knowledge of the dungeons doesn't even need a healer to complete them is an issue. I can't say if it's possible with PLD or GNB, a PLD being more likely able to than GNB in my opinion. A DRK definitely can't accomplish this.

They need to dial back the self sustain.

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Originally Posted by SenseiSnow

While it's not going to be every player, I've run in multiple current expert dungeons with 1 warrior and 3 dps and cleared in under 15 minutes.

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I mean thats fine if you wanna challenge yourself for whatever reason but I've ran sub 14 minutes with a regular group.

tank healing is balanced, joke aside, it is designed for the hardest content in game aka savage raid or ultimate, they don't balance a class based on some easy endgame dungeon ( that's why balance patch almost always come with raid patches)

Now if you only do dungeons, that's it and that's your own way to play the game but do not ask for a nerf when you play only 30% of the endgame pve content.

In my experiences with healing, it's only really Paladin that can heal itself for an extended period of time. Gunbreaker only gets so much with Brutal Shell and HoC, Dark Knight's Abyssal Drain is on a 60 second CD, and while Warrior's Bloodwhetting allows it to heal to full, the duration of that effect is only four seconds.

So in dungeons Warriors may seem a little intense healing wise, but in trials and raids the healing isn't really that big of a deal. Most importantly I think the current Tank sustain abilities are very fun. I'd love to see Dark Knight maybe get Abyssal Drain more often.

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Originally Posted by Venks

Bloodwhetting allows it to heal to full, the duration of that effect is only four seconds.

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Didja mean eight?

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Originally Posted by Venks

In my experiences with healing, it's only really Paladin that can heal itself for an extended period of time. Gunbreaker only gets so much with Brutal Shell and HoC, Dark Knight's Abyssal Drain is on a 60 second CD, and while Warrior's Bloodwhetting allows it to heal to full, the duration of that effect is only four seconds.

So in dungeons Warriors may seem a little intense healing wise, but in trials and raids the healing isn't really that big of a deal. Most importantly I think the current Tank sustain abilities are very fun. I'd love to see Dark Knight maybe get Abyssal Drain more often.

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The 4 seconds is for the 20% mitigation. The 400p per hit self-heal on each successful weaponskill, like the 10% mitigation, lasts all 8 seconds. (And the 400p shield lasts 20 seconds.)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Didja mean eight?

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This.

In Raids, Bloodwhetting is far more useful for busters fighting single targets, it's extremely OP fighting 3+ targets, SE made plenty of nerfs with the Healing potency from Healers forcing this.

Paladin may have a lot of healing, but when paired with a Gunbreaker, it's better on OT, Gunbreaker has far more reduction cooldowns available and HoC is criminal.

*cries in DRK*

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

...it is designed for the hardest content in game aka savage raid or ultimate, they don't balance a class based on some easy endgame dungeon ( that's why balance patch almost always come with raid patches)

Now if you only do dungeons, that's it and that's your own way to play the game but do not ask for a nerf when you play only 30% of the endgame pve content.

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This... warrior feels amazing in a dungeon vs 3+ mobs (shoot even 2+ if you sacrifice dps for sustain), but the tanks start to balance out in raids/vs single target. All except drk, sadly, sure it does dps, but it has no healing to speak of (except its 300 potency souleater combo). In a raid scenario its unlikely your going to use 50% of their healing abilities (abyssal drain) since it shares a cd with carve and spit.

honestly, warrior and paladin feel good, maybe a little more paladin dps and a touch more healing. a total rework of drk is in order, and i have no clue about gunbreaker, but it felt solid while leveling it (maybe a little light on healing, but again, i dont play it on a regular, so im not sure). After that, i say wait for more savage raids, then reassess with those as the benchmark, but for the love of whatever, dont nerf any of the tanks, pls, thank you.

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In my experiences with healing, it's only really Paladin that can heal itself for an extended period of time. Gunbreaker only gets so much with Brutal Shell and HoC, Dark Knight's Abyssal Drain is on a 60 second CD, and while Warrior's Bloodwhetting allows it to heal to full, the duration of that effect is only four seconds.

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You must have had some really, and i mean REALLY bad warriors, that or you simply panic healed a situation you could have just dpsd through. WARs can keep themselves up better than palas. You seem to forget they have a 20% heal and 20% healing increase, on top of a 1200 pot heal with 1000 pot hot, a 300 pot heal with a 15% shield.
All that and the fact bloodwhetting, outside of its mit and 400 pot shield, you can heal for like 3-4 times as much as ANY ability pld has every time you hit an aoe gcd in a pack of mobs FOUR times in a row... also we not even gonna talk about the rest of their mit kit, because whats point......

You need to just join a dungeon with a non brain dead war and watch that overtuning happen like magic, and get comfortable with the fact that you can go and take a dump, and by the time you come back, that champ has already carried the party to the final boss.

Just for clarity, I hit a pack of 8 mobs with one gcd and get a 3200 pot heal off that gcd, if I crit, i get what would be approx. 5600 pot heal, oh and by the way, they can get a guarenteed crit off three 2 different attacks, and one of those has a 2 charges. WAR is actually MENTAL...

Can someone explain to me why tanks need so much self healing in a game where the healer role exists? Tanks should have damage mitigation, sure, but not healing. I don't understand why they suddenly decided to give tanks a bunch of self heals to their toolkit, making some abilities that didn't heal now heal, other than to trivialize healers further.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

tank healing is balanced, joke aside, it is designed for the hardest content in game aka savage raid or ultimate, they don't balance a class based on some easy endgame dungeon ( that's why balance patch almost always come with raid patches)

Now if you only do dungeons, that's it and that's your own way to play the game but do not ask for a nerf when you play only 30% of the endgame pve content.

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So we're at the point where hardcore content is what the entire game is balanced around? We're really gonna do what WoW did which is the main reason that game's dying?

I dont think tank healing in savage matters that much. What matters the most is doing mechanics correctly otherwise youre gonna be hit with unhealable damage.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Can someone explain to me why tanks need so much self healing in a game where the healer role exists? Tanks should have damage mitigation, sure, but not healing. I don't understand why they suddenly decided to give tanks a bunch of self heals to their toolkit, making some abilities that didn't heal now heal, other than to trivialize healers further.

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Because SE cut down Healing Potency on Healers vs the SHBs stats, literal potency. However I think the self healing is a little over tuned, and Invulns need to go.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

So we're at the point where hardcore content is what the entire game is balanced around? We're really gonna do what WoW did which is the main reason that game's dying?

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That's how SE has always done it since SB. And I wouldn't really consider Savage/Ultimate hardcore content, it's only really hardcore if you're going World First, 1st Week, Speedruns.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Can someone explain to me why tanks need so much self healing in a game where the healer role exists? Tanks should have damage mitigation, sure, but not healing. I don't understand why they suddenly decided to give tanks a bunch of self heals to their toolkit, making some abilities that didn't heal now heal, other than to trivialize healers further.

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The way they set up their damage formula. Tank mastery mitigates 20% of all incoming damage. Armor mitigates 31-35% depending on item level between 560 and 600. Blocking mitigates 20%, Knights resolve 15%. The catch is all this mitigation is multiplicative. Holy Sheltron will vary in value based on armor, but at item level 600 cuts... 12.6% during the 4 seconds it's working hardest. Our big boi "30%" skills only take off about 15% IRL. Enemy damage is balanced around the tank+armor baseline so our true "blocking" tools just don't and can't have a lot of weight. The only real way to increase the ability to respond to attacks is with something not subject to the formula, AKA healing.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Can someone explain to me why tanks need so much self healing in a game where the healer role exists? Tanks should have damage mitigation, sure, but not healing. I don't understand why they suddenly decided to give tanks a bunch of self heals to their toolkit, making some abilities that didn't heal now heal, other than to trivialize healers further.

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There's not really much difference between healing and mitigation so long as one can survive any burst of damage too short to be reacted to.

But why have healing at all, then, instead of mitigation? Appearance (to most, it's more fun to see a health bar move up and down more, rather than just going down more slowly) and applicability (the eHP produced by mitigation lasts only as long as said mitigation, and requires as much damage intake as possible to be optimized, whereas healing has no such limiting parameters).

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Can someone explain to me why tanks need so much self healing in a game where the healer role exists? Tanks should have damage mitigation, sure, but not healing. I don't understand why they suddenly decided to give tanks a bunch of self heals to their toolkit, making some abilities that didn't heal now heal, other than to trivialize healers further.

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Because when you actually get to a stage of the game where you can't switch off and you are aiming for something, you cannot do it without healers, and i'm not talking about dungeons or level 70 savage raids....

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Originally Posted by Lieri

I dont think tank healing in savage matters that much. What matters the most is doing mechanics correctly otherwise youre gonna be hit with unhealable damage.

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Or death.

I admit I'm not big on chasing extremes for my own reasons but in normals and the few extremes I've tried, mechnaics tend to be do it right or eat vulnerability/boss damage up/die. And two of those are kinda the same thing just from other ends(One person's problem for vulnerability, maybe the healers too, and then Everyone's problem for boss damage boost)

Anything besides that can get healed up pretty quickly by healers alone it seems. The healing on tank helps when the healer's busy or dead but this seems overkill from what I've seen.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

So we're at the point where hardcore content is what the entire game is balanced around? We're really gonna do what WoW did which is the main reason that game's dying?

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Always has been. If you balance jobs around the easiest content in the game they won't be able to handle the harder content. WoW is dying for many reasons, but none of those reasons are classes being balanced according to the demands of Mythic raids. If anything WoW struggles with the opposite, making sure classes are balanced well enough to be able to use them in such difficult content.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

Always has been. If you balance jobs around the easiest content in the game they won't be able to handle the harder content. WoW is dying for many reasons, but none of those reasons are classes being balanced according to the demands of Mythic raids. If anything WoW struggles with the opposite, making sure classes are balanced well enough to be able to use them in such difficult content.

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Tbf, WoW isn't balanced around Mythic raids, hence its Mythic comps getting wonky or comp diversity being held up only by bloat systems like percentile buffs just for having X in your group. (Much like here, which is probably why the devs don't feel much urgency with their balance patches, since who would give up a whopping 1% main stat raid buff just to get at most the same added damage by taking a better tuned job.)

Arguably it should be balanced more around Mythic, but Heroic has seemed the actual benchmark. (And here, it's similar, what with Savage and Ultimate, though, really, less changes between those two.)

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Originally Posted by Lieri

I dont think tank healing in savage matters that much. What matters the most is doing mechanics correctly otherwise youre gonna be hit with unhealable damage.

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It does in progress, you can recover from a mistake / keep yourself alive when there are rez to do or simply take care of yourself on auto attack.

On the other hand, on a full planned fight with 0 mistakes, yes it is kinda useless.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

So we're at the point where hardcore content is what the entire game is balanced around? We're really gonna do what WoW did which is the main reason that game's dying?

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There are literally no reason to balance a job based on easy content data.

You can only see if a job need dps improvement or healing or tanking improvement on a real content, not in dungeon when you can literally take 2 TB in a row with no CD or in normal raid where enrage doesn't exist and you can literally clear the fight with your eyes closed and 3 dps afk.

As a wow player, i disagree, wow is dying because of the stupid insane amount of farm you have to do each week to get a random loot, sometimes even 0 loot.
Full lotery system is killing wow, not the class balance. Also having your dev being busy harrassing women instead of fixing things in game and listening to the community doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

As a wow player, i disagree, wow is dying because of the stupid insane amount of farm you have to do each week to get a random loot, sometimes even 0 loot.
Full lotery system is killing wow, not the class balance. Also having your dev being busy harrassing women instead of fixing things in game and listening to the community doesn't help.

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YES YES!! Preach!
If they could sort out the stupid arbitrary grinds in that game and finally make only 2 sets of pvp gear, and add solo queue for everything except Mythic Raiding. I'd never stop playing because mechanically the game is still head and shoulders above anything else.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

As a wow player, i disagree, wow is dying because of the stupid insane amount of farm you have to do each week to get a random loot, sometimes even 0 loot.
Full lotery system is killing wow, not the class balance. Also having your dev being busy harrassing women instead of fixing things in game and listening to the community doesn't help.

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Ironicaly this is exactly the thing people been asking for on the forums, they are so used to the FOMO that they crave it and want mandatory content that keeps them occupied. :|

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Ironicaly this is exactly the thing people been asking for on the forums, they are so used to the FOMO that they crave it and want mandatory content that keeps them occupied. :|

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they clearly don't know what's awaiting them if such system is implemented....

or they know, which is even worse....

May I present for your "tank healing too high" pleasure: WAR solos Pandemonium turn 1.

Not solo tank, solos the fight with only self-heals. https://youtu.be/fFcZCEny4x4

I know it's easy mode, but IMO healers shouldn't be optional in the current end-game contents. Maybe that's just me

Still expecting them to nerf Bloodwhetting down to 300 potency per hit and calling it a day. Because I don't think anybody wants to see "per use".

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

May I present for your "tank healing too high" pleasure: WAR solos Pandemonium turn 1.

Not solo tank, solos the fight with only self-heals. https://youtu.be/fFcZCEny4x4

I know it's easy mode, but IMO healers shouldn't be optional in the current end-game contents. Maybe that's just me

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People have been doing all tank or all DPS clears of current 24 man raids since like, Stormblood. Why do you think no one complains?

Because it's inconsequential. It doesn't matter. If someone wants to do a suboptimal meme run and succeed at it, have at it. This person practiced for multiple days to squeeze out a clear that took ONE HOUR. It would have been infinitely faster to just do it with random people.

All it would have taken is ONE enrage mechanic and bam, it's all over. That's on the devs, not the players. Normal modes have had enrage mechanics before, which I think should become the norm if they want to make other roles feel neccessary. It doesn't even have to be a super tight or relevant enrage, off the top of my head Alex 1 normal has like... A 16 or 17 minute enrage.

On top of this, the boss does absolutely no damage. It's been said again and again and again and again, encounters need to deal higher damage if they want healers to feel relevant. Most bosses (EVEN IN SAVAGE CONTENT) deal minimal damage to tanks because they auto attack so infrequently, and when they do land hits they're not threatening at all. Things don't have to oneshot players and threaten death every single time they happen but the damage needs to come out more frequently than it does not, tanks should be auto'd DURING mechanics and castbars. That makes it more fun (in my opinion of course) for both the healers and tanks. I remember doing Eden 8 savage for the first time and that boss put the fear of God in me. That was super threatening auto attack damage, if anyone other than the tank accidentally pulled during prog it was a oneshot to any role other than tanks.... Then the boss stops doing threatening amounts of auto attack damage like one minute into the fight and it's back to the usual.

But no, everything has to be baby mode easy. I'm not even the type of player that wants content to be ball bustingly hard, but I think ALL players enjoy challenge, even casual players. And currently most content is so ridiculously easy, the only times you'll fail is if you have multiple deaths AND there's an enrage AND you have no one to raise. In casual content that's rare enough that I can't think of an example off the top of my head. EW trial 1 comes close? Because towards the end the stack mechanic happens so often it's not possible to invuln or heal through it every single time if you're the last person standing.

Players have been doing all WAR clears of older content since ARR and solo clears since Heavensward. It's a combination of a lack of relevant damage on tanks coupled with excessive mitigation and self-healing capability. Each successive iteration of this involves less and less skill to the point where nobody gets excited by it anymore. The development team are afraid that if a tank somehow manages to die and wipe the raid, they'll forever quit the game out of embarrassment and queue times will skyrocket, so they've tried to design that possibility out of existence. We've spent a few expansions arguing for more interesting tank content and more challenging damage patterns that actually push you to use said toolkit, but there are too people out there who get a kick out of being practically invincible for next to no skill investment.

I chuckled at the above description of solo content runs as being 'suboptimal'. It's a bit like suggesting that the way to optimize a blindfolded Sekiro speedrun is to take the blindfold off.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Still expecting them to nerf Bloodwhetting down to 300 potency per hit and calling it a day. Because I don't think anybody wants to see "per use".

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Easiest, most simple "nerf" is just to make it hit one time for 400 potency heal every swing instead of hitting every single target with a heal.

1200-1600 potency worth of "heals" every use, isn't overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

People have been doing all tank or all DPS clears of current 24 man raids since like, Stormblood. Why do you think no one complains?

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People haven't done current level 8 player raids solo.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Players have been doing all WAR clears of older content since ARR and solo clears since Heavensward.

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Hate to be that guy, but proof please of current 8 man raid content being solo'd at normal ilvl.

So, in this tier alone we've had:

* Both EX trials done without a healer

* Current final 8 man trial done solo

For a Scholar main, reading doesn't seem to be your strong suit. Why don't you go back and have a look at what you quoted?