I think making carby out, and granting access to the two carby skills, would help some in things to do department (rather than them locking off, if they're locked off when carby is not out- at that point might as well just have them morphing skills). Though if we connect it to aetherflow wouldn't that mess with radiant aegis? I suppose you might consider something like 1 radiant aegis is free with cooldown but when you earn aetherflow you can cast it one more time (consuming the charge of course, though people might argue on if free version should have priority or not- like if you want to be forced to use aetherflow to use the skill, leaving the cooldown variant alone or if the cooldown variant takes priority even if you had aetherflow active).Quote:
Originally Posted by Roda
I'd love to see physick gain that sort of interaction though, aetherflow physick doing something worthwhile. Maybe physick is changed to have a higher mp cost (or cooldown), but scales with INT (at least as far as I remember it's still MND- I know when I use it at current level it's a terrible terrible skill wasting my bar space on most days lol). Alternatively than higher mp cost initially might be like each consecutive cast doubles the mp cost. Then when you use it with aetherflow it causes carby (who doesn't vanish anymore), also cast a spell- perhaps an equally strong shield onto the target that if broken deals damage a bit like TBN on DRK allowing for skilled use to mitigate cost (Although maybe still a little bit of a loss compared to DRK, shield because carby in other FF is known for using reflect).
Although personally I still kind of want the fester and painflare to mix with aetherflow stacks for unique primal effects. Like Gaol for fester (single target strong CC + fester damage), Tumult for painflare (echo's aoe damage after your following actions up to X). Although that perhaps could be some other skill, so there are even more :D (though I do encourage continued use of morphing skills, I quite like that).
I know it's not the coolest use of pets, and maybe SE is being strict on this because they want it to be different (like Dragoon and animation lock lol), but... I feel like it would be better in some cases to have the damage / effect come from you using the ability and "try" to get the pet to animate on time but if it doesn't then "woops". One thought to make that feel better though was to make it so when you use abilities on things that aren't out, then trigger the effect independent of the pet (but do your best to line them up as often as possible, if the ahk morn drops before bahamut is fully out then.. not terrible), THEN when pets are out and you use things that rely on them.. rather than cause that unit specifically to respond to the animation use the ninja ghost like effect (when they duplicate their attacks) to animate the casting on top of the primal itself. Either way stuff is getting done on a consistent schedule.
New summoner is unacceptable
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12-09-2021, 03:43 AMShougun
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12-09-2021, 03:49 AMRoda
No physick pls. D;
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12-09-2021, 03:51 AMShougunLike you want it to be not useful? Or you'd think removing it and replacing it with something else better (not healing related)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roda
Just a little confused since you mentioned aetherflow having more use than just damage, but then you said no to our fairly useless skill lol.
My guess is a concern you might be looked upon to replace healers in need, and don't want to do that. Which is fine if we can replace the skill with something else!
Currently though I just think at physick "why do you exist? why!" lol. -
12-09-2021, 04:03 AMRin_KuroiWhat is an affliction warlock summoner? What does that even mean? What does that have to do with the summoner new or old?Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
See what I'm doing here? It's attacking an idea. Not the person. Try that if you want to spread less negativity. -
12-09-2021, 04:04 AMRodaOh you can have aetherflow TIE INTO damage, just not be a "push button, hp is depleted on target, nothing else happens" Kind of like how aetherflow used to fuel our trances and our trances used to fuel bahamut, or how egi assaults did damage and let us have mobility, but also gave us ruin IVs to empower our bahamut phase (Though, the communication of that empowerment was poorly executed)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Basically just have our kit interact with itself outside of the individual phases.
Physick can be thrown in a bin (and honestly, res can too, the utility is strong and I love being able to carry a group with it, but I'd rather it be on the healer and the individuals to stay vertical.) -
12-09-2021, 04:06 AMAyer2015
I am thoroughly enjoying the changes to summoner. Thematically its far better than what it was previous. From a rotation perspective, after I hit 86 and gained additional aetherflow abilities the rotation felt better.
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12-09-2021, 04:07 AMAyer2015Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi
Warlock summoner = dot mage with pets. -
12-09-2021, 04:14 AMRin_KuroiBut what does warlock mean in this context? I don't understand. Are you talking about black mages? Black mages in final fantasy games almost always had Bio and other DoTs. Black mages have also been closely tied to summoners throughout the entire series. My favorite two summoners Rydia and Terra always had black magic spells. Like I've said before Miasma and Bio fit in perfectly fine with the game's lore and with the history of the series. Mechanically the DoTs on the old summoner sucked but I don't think that's the argument being made here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
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12-09-2021, 04:15 AMLloyd777
If you want to be annoyingly nitpicky : you are still attacking his/her idea so still attacking him/her in the end. The pot calling the kettle black
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12-09-2021, 04:19 AMDaraliiIt's a WoW comparison. "DoT mage with pet" is a large part of warlock's schtick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi
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12-09-2021, 04:23 AMRin_KuroiI haven't attacked the person or the argument yet. I don't even know what the argument is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd777
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12-09-2021, 04:25 AMEvos
Soo shadow bringer summoner
Things to manage...dots, pet actions, pet placement, ogcds, and of course timed executions (keeping that gcd rolling).
Yes there was pet AI issues mainly delays in buffs and actions if not painstakingly timed. But figuring out how it all worked together was fun.
The rewards: decision making affected by where you were in the rotation/ the fight itself and high output.
New summoner...I don't have to track anything. Energy drain and ruin IV are literally on the same timer (why Idk). The rest plays its self. I don't have to think hard about any choice. Ill use it like I use MCH when I don't care to focus. -
12-09-2021, 04:29 AMRin_KuroiAh. Okay. After a few google searches I see now, thank you. I totally forget that even existed. I knew the game had a mage class but totally forgot about warlocks. I'm know very little about WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
So being like a World of Warcraft warlock is bad? I don't know enough about them to really judge one way or the other. -
12-09-2021, 04:44 AMzcrash970The problem is the class designed is extremely flawed and needs a lot of fine tuning before savage comes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
I personally find the class boring now, and it's following the same vein as mch, but it needs a lot more love -
12-09-2021, 04:53 AMRiusvell
"We're not attacking people", why has it been that the last responses have been exactly that?
It's like you guys turned this into a thread of ganging up on the people who do have legitimate concerns and actually provide feedback on how or why it's not good.
Just because people don't share the same opinion doesn't mean you have to drown out theirs with either harassment, provocation or anything.
I'm level 90 now and my opinion has not changed since level 80, it's not a level 80 job at 80 and that's legitimately a problem that needs to be addressed.
Ruin 4 needs to be given a purpose, at the very least make the Demi's OGCD so it lines up with the Ruin 4 stack you get from Energy Drain. Ruin 4 as it is, is completely worthless.
Ifrit's cast time not lining up with the recast timer (longer time casting and same GCD) is too jarring and doesn't work for a class that only uses the skill twice.
Garuda's slipstream is fine as is, it's not messing up as much as people claim it does. The Cast timers being shorter than the GCD it gives you is honestly ok.
Titan actually is good. That's what I will give it for, though I wish I could replace my Summons. Sorry, while I do like the primals, I do want to not always see them.
Animations are somewhat nice but I don't like seeing the open book being smashed into the enemy every time. Variation is good, and the older casts actually were nice as well.
I'd also rather see the level 86 trait come into play somewhat earlier for the lower levels in a lesser form so that it feels more complete.
Job's still meh at best till they actually bring it into a finished state.
It's fine if you like it, though don't try to dismiss people's criticisms. There's a reason why people are dissatisfied even when ignoring how the older iteration plays.
Still don't feel like a Summoner though, feeling more like a Black Mage wearing a Summoner's coat. Which is kind of a shame, I really miss having them beside me.
Now they're just over glorified spells, not being that we call upon to help us out/fight for us. -
12-09-2021, 05:23 AMzcrash970Yeah I'm not going to lie. New summoner feels like that meme "random bullshit go!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Evos
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12-09-2021, 05:48 AMAnnaUK
Does the base Carbuncle really have to stay Blue?
I loved the Ruby colour.. I don't care about Titan, Ifrit and Garuda they can stay as they are for me. -
12-09-2021, 05:57 AMDaraliiYou can change it with /petglamour as far as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaUK
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12-09-2021, 05:57 AMRodaYou can still glamour them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaUK
I really find it funny how similar carbuncle is to "emerald" carbuncle. I really thought we would've gotten a true green carbuncle for emerald.
Look at this.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...6_09-00-28.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...6_09-00-18.png
I mean i like the new color, but depending on the lighting they almost look identical. -
12-09-2021, 07:03 AMMelorieApparently, if you have any grips whatsoever with the new summoner you're already attacking other people, by not letting them have fun. Either that or you're part of some evil clan that wants to bring WoW's warlock into Final Fantasy. lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi
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12-09-2021, 07:24 AMShougunYou're allowed to have your own unique opinions as long as they agree with mine! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorie
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12-09-2021, 08:56 AMVicrtz
I’m still trying to decide if I hate it or not. I’m getting over a bad case of the flu, so my brain isn’t working too great right now. This means that Change Is Bad. I might like it fine once I get my brain back. In the meantime , it’s back to scholar for me.
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12-09-2021, 09:20 AMRaltsI weave fester in-between CS combo. I dunno if it lowers my dps, though. But I got a functional rotation running, weaving ogcds in between some spells. But i'm with you with the CS dilemma. Although, i'm pretty sure they'll adjust SMN throughout 6.X.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi
Still, i'm in love with this new iteration. It feels like i'm a playing a summoner in older FF games. Maining it thoughout EW. -
12-09-2021, 09:41 AMremiff
Yes the summoner needs improvement,
because it seems incomplete and inconsistent,
phoenix burstphases lower than bahamut is stupid on a burst cycle of 60s,
ifrit ruby rites cast and recast need to be the same, annoying to use swiftcast to gain dps , the job need more thing to do. -
12-09-2021, 09:48 AMAerilon
New summoner is great - just needs a few adjustments which I'm sure they will make in time. Its the play style I have always wanted for the job and the complexity in rotation is there at 90, and easily expanded upon for the future. It would be nice if Phoenix burst was higher, but in the its a much better update than all the previous poor dot management iterations the job has gone through. It actually feels like a s SUMMONER now.
Some of you in this thread haven't been outside for some sunshine in a while, and it shows.
People are allowed to have differing opinions. There is no right or wrong here. Think how boring an ice-cream shop would be if everyone only loved mint chocolate chip. -
12-09-2021, 10:42 AMRin_KuroiThat works but there's so many different places in our rotation where we can weave in fester. More my concern is being in melee range of a boss and having to wait around for a GCD to finish the combo before I can move out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralts
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12-09-2021, 10:54 AMRaltsYeah, ifrit is the black lamb between the 3 summons. I'm pretty sure they'll make minor changes to ifrit in the future. The other 2 are working quite well, specially titan. I love using titan, because it's spammy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi
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12-09-2021, 11:07 AMSkiros
I've farmed the extreme trials a few times on SMN and I do think that Lv90 SMN is capable of being interesting. That being said, it is highly dependent on the encounter design and what you want to do with the job.
I think it's pretty fun as a progression job for the purposes of clearing week 1 savage, as you derive almost no utility from using Swiftcast for damage (and hence can use it for resurrection much more easily) and the mobility of SMN is very useful for progression (compared to Dualcasting on RDM), so much so that I daresay it could even be a more viable pick than RDM, since SMN's damage *seems* to be quite significantly higher (which matters quite a lot for clearing week 1). It's a very noob-friendly progression job due to Radiant Aegis and its insane mobility.
It is also fun in dungeons and fights with regular forced downtime. Note that dungeons are pretty much fights with a string of forced, irregular downtime. The reason is that downtime forces the summoner to abridge their rotation and prioritize the hardest-hitting moves (the Summon attacks), and what is most optimal to be abridged and what is most optimal to utilize to its completion vary depending on the duration and position of the forced downtime, not to mention the interaction between abridgement and juggling summons so that you are not casting when you need to move.
However, it is going to be dreadfully boring in most savage fights, especially fights with next to no downtime or downtime that is so long that you cycle through a full summon window anyways. From the last tier, that would be E9S, E10S, and E12S p1. Even with E11S and E12S p2, I can imagine that half the downtime is "regular" enough that the decision on how to abridge the primal summons is straightforward enough. In this sense, ironically SMN seems to be more interesting in dungeons than in most savage encounters because of how the job works.
I stand by my initial thoughts on how the devs can improve Summoner, and that is by adding skills within each primal Summon window that imposes some mild handicap on the player in exchange for slightly increased damage. Such as a vortex that the Summoner stands in to increase wind damage dealt (like a Ley Lines). This will make optimization more interesting and build on the design philosophy of Summoner, which I believe is for players to consider when and how to summon the Primals. In essence, you have like 20 or so fixed actions that you have to execute between each Demi-summon (Bahamut/Phoenix) window and your decision is to order the actions so that you get a rotation that maximizes your uptime and damage. But current Lv90 SMN does not have enough differentiation between each primal Summon for the decision to be less straightforward. In other words, Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan are too alike (even with Astral Flow) for the player to want to think hard about how the order in which they use the actions, particularly on fights where the boss is largely standing still and not moving.
The job also needs to make the Demi-summon windows much more interesting, without making them feel like the pointless busywork that MCH's wildfire window has. I think a potential solution would be to extend the duration of Attunement effects and allow them to persist after summoning Bahamut/Phoenix, and let Attunement affect what you can do in a Summon Bahamut/Phoenix window. IMO the approach I prefer is to allow Gemshine and Precious Brilliance to be cast-able in Bahamut/Phoenix provided you have an Attunement stack, and be stronger than Ruin (Impulse/Brand), with the downside of requiring some sort of handicap (melee range for Ifrit, a long cast time for Garuda, and slightly lower potency for Titan). Shortening the CD of Enkindle to 8s would be helpful IMO as well. -
12-09-2021, 11:13 AMIronman2oooAre you a former World of Warcraft Warlock main? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Genbe197
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12-09-2021, 11:54 AMChocobits
So the common complaints I see are that:
1. Carby does nothing (literally)
2. We lack an instacast Ruin of any kind anymore
3. Ifrit lowers DPS because of needing to Swiftcast
4. Needs a another/better OGCD
If all of that were addressed, would new SMN not suck in the eyes of the discontented? -
12-09-2021, 11:56 AMSkirosNone of those meaningfully impact gameplay other than point 4. So no, if those are addressed, I still wouldn't be happy with new SMN, because to me those aren't the core issues with the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobits
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12-09-2021, 01:33 PMFyfferWhat? We have lime ruin, lemon ruin, bahamut ruin, and pheonix ruin. None of those have cast times. Only cherry ruin and vanilla ruin have cast times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobits
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12-09-2021, 01:54 PMChocobitsWhat is/are your primary complaint(s) outside of those?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiros
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12-09-2021, 02:10 PMSkirosI mean it's already explained in OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobits
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12-09-2021, 03:39 PMLloyd777
@Melorie Damn the imagination of some ppl. How egocentric can you be to think is what others ppl said. (In before the condescending response :p)
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12-09-2021, 04:18 PMIdowhatIwant1. mehQuote:
Originally Posted by Chocobits
2. wrong.
3. I think this is untested.
4. Needs addressed.
I agree with OP it feels unfinished personally its hard to put a finger on what is needed. I like an idea some one posted about building up into Bahamut vs starting off with it.
Ruin 4 feels terrible and should be replaced or changed. -
12-09-2021, 04:42 PMzcrash970
1. Bahamut/phoenix cd is based on on spell speed and not a strict 60cd. This allows both to drift out of 60sec and 120 buff windows that a party will provide
2. This even applies to our own buff, Searing Light. We will have to delay bahamut or delay the CD or we are waiting on both.
3. This points out the fault of carby. It hinders us severally. After every summon it returns to us so we need to position it every time we want to use searing light. Which can potentially delay our cd because carby is slow. As well depending on what summon you are using can be hetic to place carby
4. Phoenix is a dps loss for flavor and utility you cannot use when you need to
5. Ifrit design is weak for no reason and should technically be the strongest since we have to get it into melee range and two long casts. We are going to have to reserve swiftcast for this.
6. Summon animations can obscure visual mechanics.
7. Ruin 4 is very awkward and easily forgettable. It serves no point in our rotation outside of a pointless extra mobility option.
8. We have a ton of instant cast but nothing to fill the gap with. You get two festers that are immediately burned off in bahamut/phoenix
I can go on further about the leveling process and gameplay of the class if needed but I wanted to keep it focused on lvl90 issues. This is also precursory because I haven't really done my own math -
12-09-2021, 06:14 PMRaltsSounds more like a you problem, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwalker
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12-09-2021, 06:28 PMSunako
I have played few days now and it is really hard to fail new rotation. SMN have never been easier to play. Perfect job for new players, but expect more experienced players get bored of it very soon.
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12-10-2021, 12:33 AMAyer2015
While I still enjoy the rework, I will agree that Ruin 4 seems rather tacked on in its current implementation. Also, Bahamut and Phoenix could use further distinction in their function.
For example, allow the player to decide between summoning Bahamut or Phoenix. Have summon Bahamut provide 4 stacks of further ruin, and give Phoenix abilities cast-times with some additional benefit to promote its use.