DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

All this mumbo jumbo of "garbage dps"

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So you are saying that getting 1000 DPS or more under the average thus hitting enrage timers is a perfectly good thing and should be accepted as the norm.

Are you by any chance drunk? Or perhaps you've gotten high prior to making this post.

Well to be fair Tsu ex uptime strat is most likely the easiest strat for that fight with barely any movement during moon phase and not having to have people run across the room. Was a shame only got to witness it the first time after 70 clears of dps/healers being swapped backed in forth. I would do that strat over all the others in a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

So you are saying that getting 1000 DPS or more under the average thus hitting enrage timers is a perfectly good thing and should be accepted as the norm.

Are you by any chance drunk? Or perhaps you've gotten high prior to making this post.

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I think you missed it so I'll help : "You do mechanics and you do decent damage and you'll clear 99% of the. "Savage content in this game."

It's funny because

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

world first party comps

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and

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

"optimal party"

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

"optimal parties"

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Originally Posted by Nariel

optimal meta party setup.

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are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Depends, though. If the tank is in BiS and the DPS is only in 330s or something, well...

That's why I don't like putting labels on people. There's a lot of factors.

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Yeah because 330 dps are in sigmscape right? I'm talking about recent events. I was only 353 warrior and I was top of the list, above 2 dps who never died and was around 360. You have to carefully explain why this is a thing, then you can explain to me why it happens. And if a dps is ilvl 330 vs a 350 tank, the dps can still outdps the tank, so I don't know why this is an excuse. And highly doubt tanks are bis in week 1 for new raiding.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

So you are saying that getting 1000 DPS or more under the average thus hitting enrage timers is a perfectly good thing and should be accepted as the norm.

Are you by any chance drunk? Or perhaps you've gotten high prior to making this post.

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Are enrage timers tuned around "average" DPS or around a different number? SE's design intent for DPS may not be the player community's "common knowledge" of what DPS "is supposed to be".

Ideally, the group should be doing the minimum DPS the encounter is tuned around, with anything over that a bonus. If that minimum is below what is commonly accepted as "average" DPS then yes, it's fine as long as it doesn't go below that minimum.

Any kill is a perfectly good thing, even if it happens as the group hits the enrage timer. There's no bonus for speed kills.

But how many wipes are because the group has hit enrage as opposed to failing a mechanics check? I haven't made it into FFXIV end game raiding yet but in WoW it was extremely rare to see wipes happening at enrage with almost everyone still standing. Wipes were inevitably because of mechanics failures that killed off most of the group long before enrage would happen.

If you're always hitting enrage with everyone still standing, then start looking at the DPS. If you're wiping before that or half the group is dead when you reach enrage, address the other issues.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Are enrage timers tuned around "average" DPS or around a different number? SE's design intent for DPS may not be the player community's "common knowledge" of what DPS "is supposed to be".

Ideally, the group should be doing the minimum DPS the encounter is tuned around, with anything over that a bonus. If that minimum is below what is commonly accepted as "average" DPS then yes, it's fine as long as it doesn't go below that minimum.

Any kill is a perfectly good thing, even if it happens as the group hits the enrage timer. There's no bonus for speed kills.

But how many wipes are because the group has hit enrage as opposed to failing a mechanics check? I haven't made it into FFXIV end game raiding yet but in WoW it was extremely rare to see wipes happening at enrage with almost everyone still standing. Wipes were inevitably because of mechanics failures that killed off most of the group long before enrage would happen.

If you're always hitting enrage with everyone still standing, then start looking at the DPS. If you're wiping before that or half the group is dead when you reach enrage, address the other issues.

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In WoW it's almost always a mechanical wipe rather than DPS check wipe. In FF14 it tends to be a combination of both. DPS fail easy mechanics, die, revival takes time as instant cast is on a 60 second cooldown, and while they are alive they do either average or below average damage. This is where the problem is. I've gotten past quite a few enrage checks even with DPS messing up mechanics just because when they were alive, they did above average damage to compensate for the time they spent dead, so the enrage timer was passed with a little extra effort from the rest of us.

However, i've also been in quite a few raids where no one died, but the DPS check failed simply because the DPS players in our party were doing damage so low it was disgusting to watch. It's pretty common in this game that people go below that minimum as you called it and expect the rest of the party to pick up their slack and carry them through the raid, to me this is unacceptable. If you are unable to pull your own weight in a raid, do not join that raid, instead join something more suited to your skill level.

It seems a lot of people misunderstand the "team" aspect of most online games. We aren't here to carry you, we aren't here to pick up your slack, we are here to play the game and have fun. If your incompetence stops that, don't act so surprised when you get removed from the party.

You is used as a general term, not you personally. I feel like this needs to be said to avoid unnecessary arguments.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

really

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Did you even read my posts before you made this? Do you even know anything about my stance on this? Going off your previous post, I'm going with no. You're lumping in me with another poster who had an entirely different disagreement and dragging it on. To what end, I don't know.

I'm not on the "opposite end." I don't have a problem with being parsed. I think it has its uses. I don't think it's a good idea to put it in game, but it can be helpful, and if someone wants to know their numbers, they should.

Work on your reading comprehension before throwing out pointless remarks about the state of other people's posts.

End of story, yes. In this raid tier with i350, if you do 4k damage, you did garbage damage. Most were pulling 4k on Monk in i320.

Tanks can pull 4k dps. You should be pulling at the absolute, true, utter, bare minimum, 4.5k without any party buffs, food, or potions, not in a dummy fight, and regardless of job (Monk should be pulling more like 5500 on a dummy). Bard/Machinist does not *need* Dragoon or rng to hit that much, no job has an excuse for hitting so weak.

Your job is to do damage. You're only doing 4k, you're not doing damage. 4.5k isn't even good, it can't even clear SSS. Don't read that and take that as a goal, take that as motivation to actually learn. Your goal should always be more damage.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

All this mumbo jumbo of "garbage dps" "optimal party", etc. 90% of players you come across in pf that demand "optimal parties" or "up time" strats, etc aren't even good enough to fully benefit from their own demands.

You do mechanics and you do decent damage and you'll clear 99% of the. "Savage content in this game.

You'll eventually learn that the people in pf requiring world first party comps and strats are the trapiest traps to ever trap.

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4k isn't decent, it's not even enough to clear enrage on Tsukuyomi.

This post wasn't about party comp, it's looking for validation for dealing garbage damage. And there is no validation, especially for a Monk. If you're doing 4k damage as a dps, you simply do not have any idea how to play your job. I've died in o6s with i350, multiple times, as a drg, and still did significantly more than 4k. There's zero excuse for so little damage.

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Originally Posted by Luin

4k isn't decent, it's not even enough to clear enrage on Tsukuyomi.

This post wasn't about party comp, it's looking for validation for dealing garbage damage. And there is no validation, especially for a Monk. If you're doing 4k damage as a dps, you simply do not have any idea how to play your job. I've died in o6s with i350, multiple times, as a drg, and still did significantly more than 4k. There's zero excuse for so little damage.

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Disregard this response. I did have something to respond with, but then I re-read your comments about Monk as I was typing it, and realize that you likely have a good point about my job. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunterrX

So why dont use some middle way, which benefit both sides. My idea is very simpel: Give the leader the option to turn on/off ingame parsers when selecting the Savage content. Yes, ONLY SAVAGE.

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I do agree with this. If we could get something similar to Duty Recorder where its an opt-in system for Savage and Ex only, I think that would be the best middle ground that we could get. Even better if the devs could work with the ACT model that already exists.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I don't have a problem with being parsed. I think it has its uses. I don't think it's a good idea to put it in game, but it can be helpful, and if someone wants to know their numbers, they should.

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So you think it's okay that some people have parsers now but it wouldn't be okay for everyone to have access to the same tools?

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

Perhaps it was in bad taste but I hope this explains why I called him out and why I'm not apologizing for it.

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Fair enough, I get your point and as someone that with other capable friends, (tries to) carry less capable friends through content I do understand how frustrating it can be to wipe due not meeting the dps check. Not sure if said this before I do not disagree with your statement or position, while I do not agree with the means as to which it was handled I do understand. Thanks for taking the time to explain it, and I am sure if said player read your post they would also understand.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

So you think it's okay that some people have parsers now but it wouldn't be okay for everyone to have access to the same tools?

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As long as you are on PC you have access. Not our fault there is no community driven option for a PS4 parser.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I do agree with this. If we could get something similar to Duty Recorder where its an opt-in system for Savage and Ex only, I think that would be the best middle ground that we could get. Even better if the devs could work with the ACT model that already exists.

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I think this is a step in the right direction but it still doesn't address the idea that players will be getting virtually no feedback on their performance until they reach the first part of the game where performance matters.

The bare minimum I find acceptable would be giving everyone a solo parser throughout the game that measures potency per second so it remains gear and party composition agnostic. This way the only ignorance that prevails would be willful ignorance - you would be presented with your pps relavent to average and top pps for a particular instance on your job. No names, nothing party-wide when it doesn't need to be.

EX and Savage would ideally get the full function, even only on an opt-in basis.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

As long as you are on PC you have access. Not our fault there is no community driven option for a PS4 parser.

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I didn't blame you but plenty of players play on ps4, myself included. Others I know can play on PC but their computer can't handle running FF and ACT together. To give an advantage only to people with the money to buy it seems shitty no matter how you spin it.

Hell, with this logic just cancel ps4 support for the game - you can play it on pc after all, not our fault it isn't available on ps4.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I didn't blame you but plenty of players play on ps4, myself included. Others I know can play on PC but their computer can't handle running FF and ACT together. To give an advantage only to people with the money to buy it seems shitty no matter how you spin it..

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Hold up, so you think that only people with money having certain advantages over those with less money it shouldn't exist or should not be allowed or whatever.

Do you actually understand how the real world works?

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Hold up, so you think that only people with money having certain advantages over those with less money it shouldn't exist or should not be allowed or whatever.

Do you actually understand how the real world works?

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Did...you actually read their post?

I think you have misunderstood the point.

Moro is not saying that it shouldn't exist...they are actually saying the opposite: that it should exist so both can have access to it.

I think the point was it would be nice if PS4 users also have the option to parse like PC users can. Sure, the system right now is don't ask don't tell, but without an official one then PS4 users are kinda left out even if they have the desire to opt in.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Did...you actually read their post?

I think you have misunderstood the point.

Moro is not saying that it shouldn't exist...they are actually saying the opposite: that it should exist so both can have access to it.

I think the point was it would be nice if PS4 users also have the option to parse like PC users can. Sure, the system right now is don't ask don't tell, but without an official one then PS4 users are kinda left out even if they have the desire to opt in.

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I don't think they were being serious.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I don't think they were being serious.

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My bad if that is the case xD

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I didn't blame you but plenty of players play on ps4, myself included. Others I know can play on PC but their computer can't handle running FF and ACT together. To give an advantage only to people with the money to buy it seems shitty no matter how you spin it.

Hell, with this logic just cancel ps4 support for the game - you can play it on pc after all, not our fault it isn't available on ps4.

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Okay now, calm down. ACT and the FFXIV plugins were made by 3rd parties. They have no obligation to make it available to everyone. Hell, they could even charge for it! Not all PCs are made equal. That's the reality of PC gaming. Things need resources. If you run more than 1 thing at the same time, you need more resources.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Okay now, calm down. ACT and the FFXIV plugins were made by 3rd parties. They have no obligation to make it available to everyone. Hell, they could even charge for it! Not all PCs are made equal. That's the reality of PC gaming. Things need resources. If you run more than 1 thing at the same time, you need more resources.

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LOL that would be funny if the charged a monthly subscription for an official ACT. Would not happen, but would be a funny April Fools joke.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Okay now, calm down. ACT and the FFXIV plugins were made by 3rd parties. They have no obligation to make it available to everyone. Hell, they could even charge for it! Not all PCs are made equal. That's the reality of PC gaming. Things need resources. If you run more than 1 thing at the same time, you need more resources.

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Did I say they had that obligation? Please quote me, I'll wait.

My comment was to Lunaxia who has expressed what I feel are unfounded concerns surrounding parsing and the community of people who do it then (in the quoted post) said that she was okay with parsing being done but didn't think it should be added to the game.

My question then is why would someone be okay with parsing as it is now (arbitrarily restricted by platform and/or PC quality) but not included in the game - it doesn't make sense. The only difference if SE added an ingame parser would be that everyone would be on equal footing.

Maybe read the thread you're replying to so you have context, it helps make you look less... like how you do now.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I think this is a step in the right direction but it still doesn't address the idea that players will be getting virtually no feedback on their performance until they reach the first part of the game where performance matters.

The bare minimum I find acceptable would be giving everyone a solo parser throughout the game that measures potency per second so it remains gear and party composition agnostic. This way the only ignorance that prevails would be willful ignorance - you would be presented with your pps relavent to average and top pps for a particular instance on your job. No names, nothing party-wide when it doesn't need to be.

EX and Savage would ideally get the full function, even only on an opt-in basis.

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Fair enough. But with Yoshi at the helm, I don't think that would be possible. All the dev team will cite is that Koike Incident that they keep hiding behind as an excuse, in spite of other cases of harassment that should really garner their attention. Ideally, yes, I would love to have a full on parser that everybody can access, one that is supported by the devs and is maintained by people that actually know about it - preferably through official support between them and the ACT/FFLOGs team. But as long as Yoshi is there, it won't happen - not a full parser, at least. I feel like the middle ground that I quoted a page ago would be the best case scenario, at least while Yoshi is at the helm.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I have for years played final fantasy,...,"I HAVE" countless of times proven players wrong, & no salvage & ex fights are not a good example...In other words, numbers does in no way let you numerize persons knowledge or skills toward a win or a lost.

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That's where based FFLogs comes in. Take your PLD on Kefka Story as an example. ACT would show me that you're doing the same damage your job could do at the end of Heavensward. However, with FFLogs I can see you don't use Reprisal or Shirk. I can see you use Divine Veil once in a 9+ min fight. I can also see that you don't use your defensive cooldowns nearly enough nor do you use Intervention at all. Now, it's story mode and you get the kill, however you make the fight more difficult/longer for everyone else involved whilst contributing very little yourself. That's what your "experience" is worth to a group. It's a simple concept; team game so why not try to help the team as best you can?

Stating "4K" is bad is tough because every fight is different. Sometimes DPS gets a lot of uptime, sometimes it doesn't. DPS is affected by party make up, mechanics, and communication.

For example, with my gear (only ilvl 361 mendacity stuff with tsuku weapon), I can pull out 5.8-6k with my Samurai on a dummy with no food or buffs. Put me in a fight against Tsuku and it can fluctuate between 4.3 and 4.9k (no food) because of the mechanics (slowed down due to suffering phase, get a moon symbol opposite of the main tanks, having to drop meteor, etc), or the tank suddenly deciding to pull her left instead of right during meteor phase without prior notice, killing my uptime. Give me a Drg, Mnk and Rdm to boost me up and I'll do more damage (assuming they use their buffs properly), give me a black mage, smn and another samurai, my DPS will drop. If I have to use my Third Eye procs to drop aggro with Merciful Eyes, my DPS will drop. There's so much that can change the way a fight goes.

But as others have said, the problem isn't people who do low dps. It's the people who don't want to learn to do better. People who want to learn will naturally get better at their job and learn all the tricks to optimize their output.

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Originally Posted by Rikuide

That's where based FFLogs comes in. Take your PLD on Kefka Story as an example.

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??? This almost looks like you spy & stalk me? Are you saying that you checked my performance on a third party program? Excuse me? I do not reprisal or shirk? For one, I do not use Shirk that is correct,so this right there almost confirm that you snoopin on me,for two I do not need to say why, i have nothing to justify there (I do not need to justify anything to you or even others) but my reply is to claim that if I really needed to I would, as you said toward me: it's story mode and you get the kill & you claiming that: however you make the fight more difficult/longer for everyone else involved whilst contributing very little yourself IT IS HIGHLY INNAPROPRIATED because there is far more variables to what you said, its not that i cant toggle stance as much as i want + who tells you I even tryed to optimise my dps at that moment? I am a TANK in a NONE SAVAGE FIGHT doing my job which is TANKING & DODGING mechanics, as far as you know i could of been picking up my boogers (My nose, My fingers.) while "you" were recording my stats...Divine veil once in 9+min? WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO? If i dont divine veil at all that belongs to me, again was I mendatory required to do this? you speaking about my cooldowns or my use of gauge abilitys is completly misplaced as I have said before:

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Originally Posted by Ruf

content such as savage content & what not when I dont even care about doing it myself + even if I was, you have no way of gauging my claims but by your intuition & other means that could be borderline limit,,,

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Your example was in no way a savage or a several fights farming at all,that was regular (IF things were different maybe i would care, but they are not), & i have 0 care about what you typed even if you added numbers IT MEANS NOTHING "to insult me I would first have to value your opinion" for me to value your opinion I would first have to care that this random ass person online is worth the comments they made."
As i said already:

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Originally Posted by Ruf

If I want to know my % I will ask ok? tyvm

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&

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Originally Posted by Ruf

take your logs & go home with it.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

??? This almost looks like you spy & stalk me? Are you saying that you checked my performance on a third party program? Excuse me? I do not reprisal or shirk? For one, I do not use Shirk that is correct,so this right there almost comfirm that you snoopin on me,for two I do not need to say why, i have nothing to justify there (I do not need to justify anything to you or even others) but my reply is to claim that if I really needed to I would, as you said toward me: it's story mode and you get the kill & you claiming that: however you make the fight more difficult/longer for everyone else involved whilst contributing very little yourself IT IS HIGHLY INNAPROPRIATED because theres far more variables to what you said, its not that i cant toggle stance as much as i want + who tells you i even tryed to optimise my dps at that moment? I am a TANK in a NONE SAVAGE FIGHT doing my job which is TANKING & DODGING mechanics, as far as you know i could of been picking up my boogers (My nose, My fingers) while "you" were recording my stats...Divine veil once in 9+min? WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO? If i dont divine veil at all that belongs to me, again was I mendatory required to do this? you speaking about my cooldowns or my use of gauge abilitys is completly misplaces as i have said before:

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The issue is you claim to be not new but you are playing in such a way that it seems like you don't understand your skills or role.

Let's take Shirk for example - assuming you were the offtank in the fight Rikuide brings up you can use Provoke and then Shirk the main tank to feed him enmity for no cost. This way he doesn't have to spam his aggro combo and you are helping to protect the rest of the party. Provoke will bring you up to right above the main tank in enmity for a second and then when you Shirk him you're basically giving him back whatever Shirk gives, I think 20 or 25 percent. This is something people would generally expect a tank to know and do, it's just a common courtesy to your main tank. The fact that you don't do it while claiming you don't need any help is... troubling.

No one is saying you are required to do any of this, the issue is when you don't do these things but then claim to be as or more knowledgable or skilled than players who, frankly, are playing better than you are from an objective standpoint.

Basically don't talk big if you can't back it up. You play like a newer player, that is fine, but if someone tells you that or tries to offer advice (as many people have, myself included) you don't get to snap back as if you are an experienced player who knows just as much. You aren't. You don't. Thats okay, everyone starts somewhere. No one will shame you for being inexperienced but they will shame you for being arrogant.

You kind of opened yourself up for that judgment when you started talking about your "experience."

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

The issue is you claim to be not new but you are playing in such a way that it seems like you don't understand your skills or role.

Let's take Shirk for example - assuming you were the offtank in the fight Rikuide brings up you can use Provoke and then Shirk the main tank to feed him enmity for no cost. This way he doesn't have to spam his aggro combo and you are helping to protect the rest of the party. Provoke will bring you up to right above themain tank in enmity for a second and then when you Shirk him you're basically giving him back whatever Shirk gives, I think 20 or 25 percent. This is something people would generally expect a tank to know and do, it's just a common courtesy to your main tank. The fact that you don't do it while claiming you don't need any help is... troubling.

No one is saying you are required to do any of this, the issue is when you don't do these things but then claim to be as or more knowledgable or skilled than players who, frankly, are playing better than you are from an objective standpoint.

Basically don't talk big if you can't back it up. You play like a newer player, that is fine, but if someone tells you that or tries to offer advice (as many people have, myself included) you don't get to snap back as if you are an experienced player who knows just as much. You aren't. You don't. Thats okay, everyone starts somewhere. No one will shame you for being inexperienced but they will shame you for being arrogant.

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YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH ME, & EVEN IF YOU DID, I WOULD NOT TAKE ANY ADVICE FROM YOU.
(So NO i wont talk shirk for an example with you)

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Originally Posted by Ruf

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH ME, & EVEN IF YOU DID, I WOULD NOT TAKE ANY ADVICE FROM YOU.
(So NO i wont talk shirk for an example with you)

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Relax? >.>

Honestly, it's a game. I was perfectly respectful. Maybe don't cop such an attitude if you don't want to get it thrown back at you.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH ME, & EVEN IF YOU DID, I WOULD NOT TAKE ANY ADVICE FROM YOU.
(So NO i wont talk shirk for an example with you)

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Good to know you hate your cotanks. And your team.

Here I thought you were a stand-up guy.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Good to know you hate your cotanks. And your team.

Here I thought you were a stand-up guy.

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Right? Like why not just take some knowledge, not play as if you only have 4 buttons to hit, and roll with it to expand everyone's experience. SMH no idea how people can hate learning how to play at a 3rd grade level so much and hate their fellow co-tanks :c

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Originally Posted by SombraRose

Right? Like why not just take some knowledge, not play as if you only have 4 buttons to hit, and roll with it to expand everyone's experience. SMH no idea how people can hate learning how to play at a 3rd grade level so much and hate their fellow co-tanks :c

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Yeah, he's not on my datacentre so I don't have to worry but if he was I'd log his name. If I end up in a duty with him that's a 30 minute penalty I'm taking without remorse. If you're struggling, fine no issues, we'll work with that (if disability causes you to struggle, that's captured under the same wing, as someone with a disability myself I know that it can severely affect how well you play). An old habit you keep slipping back into? It happens, but just try your best to break it. So long as you're trying, I don't got an issue with you. If for example you forgot to pack shirk before a fight started... yeah it happens to the best of us, no biggie there either.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Yeah, he's not on my datacentre so I don't have to worry but if he was I'd log his name. If I end up in a duty with him that's a 30 minute penalty I'm taking without remorse. If you're struggling, fine no issues, we'll work with that (if disability causes you to struggle, that's captured under the same wing, as someone with a disability myself I know that it can severely affect how well you play). An old habit you keep slipping back into? It happens, but just try your best to break it. So long as you're trying, I don't got an issue with you. If for example you forgot to pack shirk before a fight started... yeah it happens to the best of us, no biggie there either.

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I will gladly not play with you.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I will gladly not play with you.

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Good. Go be pompous elsewhere. I make reasonable adjustments for people, always will. But if you're a "My sub my way hurr durr" type player I won't have patience for you. It's a team game, if you're not willing to put your best foot forward (and yes, off days are OK, but it's your attitude that stinks), go play a single player game where the only person you're hindering is yourself. Or, stick to party finders where you make it clear that's the sort of attitude you have (such as the static we had, it was NEST inspired so goofing off was expected, but in DF I know I have to try my best). If you're going to harbour that kind of attitude expect lots of kicks for "Playstyle differences" especially once your name becomes known across the datacentre.

Oh and before you try and report those players kicking you for playstyle differences, it's considered a valid reason to kick even though it isn't listed in the pop-up. People have tried reporting for it before and that's what the GMs say.

EDIT: Going to add, I'm reminded of this

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Originally Posted by INTJs at work

Though they may be surprised to hear it, INTJs make natural leaders, and this shows in their management style. INTJs value innovation and effectiveness more than just about any other quality, and they will gladly cast aside hierarchy, protocol and even their own beliefs if they are presented with rational arguments about why things should change. INTJs promote freedom and flexibility in the workplace, preferring to engage their subordinates as equals, respecting and rewarding initiative and adopting an attitude of "to the best mind go the responsibilities", directing strategy while more capable hands manage the day-to-day tactics.
But this sort of freedom isn’t just granted, it’s required – those who are accustomed to just being told what to do, who are unable to direct themselves and challenge existing notions, will have a hard time meeting INTJs’ extremely high standards. Efficiency and results are king to INTJs, and behaviors that undermine these conditions are quashed mercilessly. If subordinates try to compensate for their weakness in these areas by trying to build a social relationship with their INTJ managers, on their heads be it – office gossip and schmoozing are not the way into INTJs’ hearts – only bold competence will do.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Good. Go be pompous elsewhere. I make reasonable adjustments for people, always will. But if you're a "My sub my way hurr durr" type player I won't have patience for you. It's a team game, if you're not willing to put your best foot forward (and yes, off days are OK, but it's your attitude that stinks), go play a single player game where the only person you're hindering is yourself. Or, stick to party finders where you make it clear that's the sort of attitude you have (such as the static we had, it was NEST inspired so goofing off was expected, but in DF I know I have to try my best). If you're going to harbour that kind of attitude expect lots of kicks for "Playstyle differences" especially once your name becomes known across the datacentre.

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Honestly if they're upfront about their unwillingness to do anything they're supposed to in DF description they won't ever have to worry about kicks or disbands because they'll simply never get party formed

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Originally Posted by SombraRose

Honestly if they're upfront about their unwillingness to do anything they're supposed to in DF description they won't ever have to worry about kicks or disbands because they'll simply never get party formed

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Well said! Anyway, i never said my sub my way, but it is my opinion & so my play indeed.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I will gladly not play with you.

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That was completely uncalled for in every sense of the word. Nothing warranted that type of response. Nothing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

That was completely uncalled for in every sense of the word. Nothing warranted that type of response. Nothing.

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I would disagree here. The way I went in at him all guns blazing, I would say I deserved it. But at the same time it's 4:30am, I can't sleep properly, and these sorts of posts are driving me insane.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I would disagree here. The way I went in at him all guns blazing, I would say I deserved it. But at the same time it's 4:30am, I can't sleep properly, and these sorts of posts are driving me insane.

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...alright, fair enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I will gladly not play with you.

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I'm fairly certain many people feel the same way towards you about that as well.

I know I'm happy you aren't on my data center too. I feel sorry for Primal though.