Players Who Don't pull their weight.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

But he's not refusing to fulfill his role. Just not doing to someone's standards isn't a valid reason to kick as I see it.

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I will just quote this cause some are obviously selective reading too much:

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Originally Posted by ArikDimas

The blm was level 50, had 15 arc to unlock blm, and had leveled acn as well, if the black mage was truly new as the ast claimed, they were using some other persons account. Also as I said, they were not even trying to communicate back, their performance was intentional.

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And to requote myself: "without the basic of their class", "with no response when asked", "wipe after wipe".

And I will tell it again, if it wasn't clear for you, this vote is not for "not doing to someone's standards", it's for "no communication, bot-like behavior, refusing of doing basic rotation or try to improvement even after getting advice from other, causing the group multiple wipes or really just afk follow".

Edit: Also the question of if a reason for vote kick is valid or not is rather dumb, you can kick a person for any reason. Better question should be: if the vote kick worth it, would it be an abused kick, could thing have been better with or without the vote kick. IMO those are more meaningful question.

You assume it was intentional. Maybe he wasn't comfortable changing rotation midstream.

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Originally Posted by Larkspur

Should I be vote kicked for that? Am I purposefully harassing another player for not dpsing in cleric stance?

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Here is how I see it. If you're a healer or a tank & you can successfully fulfill your duty than despite how I may feel at you being a tad lazy, at least you're able to do your job so I'm satisfied ie: tank keeping aggro, healing healing people.


How would you feel if a tank stopped trying to keep aggro or a healer just stood there & didn't heal more than the mobs could do so you died? I think it's unfair that DPS are exempt from playing at least with a basic rotation. I don't expect perfection but I do expect a level 50/60 job to be able to do more damage than a tank stance tank, is that so wrong? To want dps to dps, just like anyone would want healers to heal & tanks to keep aggro? You'd HAVE to kick a healer that didn't heal enough bc you wouldn't be able to progress the dungeon, isn't it the same for dps, at least for things with dps checks such as sohr's second boss(soft, I've actually had to heal this before, it was intense) & A8 normal(hard)?


Although I personally don't start a vote kick unless someone is extremely rude or DCd, I would have to say yes if someone else did bc someone really didn't know their job & the tank outdid them, especially if they refused advice. It shouldn't be a stranger in DF's job to tell you how to play, go fight the Midas normal SSS dummy & see if you can win. Can't? Try some new combos. Still can't? Google a guide, there are hundreds of them. No need to waste everyone's limited living time in making a 20 min dungeon 45 minutes, at least do it to be considerate of other people, just like you'd want people to be considerate of you. Not to mention it would null chances of the real elitists to treat you like dirt and berate & troll/kick you for not being able to play.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

A Free Company?

Besides, you make it sound like everyone's a dumbass. That obviously isn't true.

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Well based on your post, I got that impression from you.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

You assume it was intentional. Maybe he wasn't comfortable changing rotation midstream.

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Yep, we cannot assume anything, cause we don't know what going with the real person behind the screen, so we should have be more understanding and forgivable before critic them. On the mean time, i might have a bad day in real life too so my hand might get loose on the vote kick button, please be understanding and don't call be a salty elitist, i'm nicer most of the other days!

Sarcasm aside, if you re-read his post, he said the behavior wasn't improved at all till the end of the dungeon. And i will tell you this, it is very easy to see if someone actually try and failed, or not trying at all. I welcome people who try even if they failed and still fall back to their old rotation sometimes, cause you can't "learn" a rotation immediately. But there are people who say "I will play how i want and pass on your suggestion, thank you very much".

Funny though, we keep going on discussing about a "vote kick" which never happened.

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Originally Posted by ArikDimas

To me a healer going into cleric stance between heals is a nice bonus, but is not your main job.

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I am inclined to disagree to a degree. For example, a scholar that keeps eos on sic while being on auto-follow. For many dungeons, that is, in fact, sufficient to do one's main job as healer. But is it acceptable? I think no, because that person is actually doing less than a DPS who only spams 1. And a warrior using only defiance, overpower and his aggro combo is no better player than a ninja using only poisons, death blossom and the dancing edge combo and consequently, should be treated the same, even though the prior will be able to properly fulfill his role's core function with that level of play.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I am inclined to disagree to a degree. For example, a scholar that keeps eos on sic while being on auto-follow. For many dungeons, that is, in fact, sufficient to do one's main job as healer. But is it acceptable? I think no, because that person is actually doing less than a DPS who only spams 1. And a warrior using only defiance, overpower and his aggro combo is no better player than a ninja using only poisons, death blossom and the dancing edge combo and consequently, should be treated the same, even though the prior will be able to properly fulfill his role's core function with that level of play.

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Might take longer, but all are fulfilling role.

Not gonna bother reading pages and pages of this, so I'm pretty sure I'm just reiterating what someone said.
But idk, some people aren't good or some people play sparingly? If you get worked up over people sucking or "not trying at all", then that's what you need to build up a team of folks you can count on. You can't control how people play and it's not fair of anyone to.

I main as a WHM and I've been playing for nearly a year and I think I stink. I can look up guides or listen to advice, but it's always a case of too much info to process. Just, some people can't always play to their max potential and end up finding their own style of what's effective for THEM and not the universal expectation of how to a play their class. If they learn from your advice, awesome! If they don't, they just may not find as effective for them personally.

Just never gonna understand the frustration of getting paired with randoms who aren't "good enough" and thinking they should be punished for it.

Some people play for fun. Its ok man. You want an a-team all the time, build a static. As a leader you'll get the respect you seem to be fishing for. More so then what you'll get for a thread like this where you come off as elitist or where you seem to be dropping hints about how great you are.

Its a game dude, relax.

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Originally Posted by self_riot

Not gonna bother reading pages and pages of this, so I'm pretty sure I'm just reiterating what someone said.
But idk, some people aren't good or some people play sparingly? If you get worked up over people sucking or "not trying at all", then that's what you need to build up a team of folks you can count on. You can't control how people play and it's not fair of anyone to..

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I get your point, but it's not fun for 3-7-23 people to be taken fun away too. Fun have to be included for everyone just not 1 person. It's also not fair for people to work extra hard just because one decide not to improve either.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Some people play for fun.

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So do I. I play to improve and be better each time I log in, that's my goal. I thought playing games had a purpose? Killing bosses, doing things and achive them by beating content etc? Yeah I'm aware of those who do RP etc, but me/others in here don't even talk about those. We talk about people who do battle content on a daily basis. It's not fun for me to log in and then someone is gonnna cry about a nerf or letting other people put more time and energy into their game, just because 1 person wanted to be hard carried. This goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

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I imagine you eat that penalty daily. Specially regarding Blizzard III vs Transpose... That's not as common knowledge as you think. It's like asking if I should use Thunder III + thundercloud over Fire IV. It's "meta" and not blatantly obvious unless you compare the two. Some players just don't go that far out of their way to test it. Or in my own case, never had a veteran player explain why it's optimal. Once I understood why people did it, I started doing it too. To put it plainly, for little things like that just offer them the advice in simple and concise words. If they don't reply or get toxic then by all means leave. However, many times people just don't know any better when it comes to meta things.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

I get your point, but it's not fun for 3-7-23 people to be taken fun away too. Fun have to be included for everyone just not 1 person. It's also not fair for people to work extra hard just because one decide not to improve either.


So do I. I play to improve and be better each time I log in, that's my goal. I thought playing games had a purpose? Killing bosses, doing things and achive them by beating content etc? Yeah I'm aware of those who do RP etc, but me/others in here don't even talk about those. We talk about people who do battle content on a daily basis. It's not fun for me to log in and then someone is gonnna cry about a nerf or letting other people put more time and energy into their game, just because 1 person wanted to be hard carried. This goes both ways.

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Which is why he said build your own team.

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for my poor performance on WoD and Levi Hard last night in the very off chance anyone from those is reading this.
I didn't do my research on WoD and failed to properly coordinate with the group helping to the two wipes on Cerberus. On Levi hard, there was a family emergency and I had to rush away from the computer immediately. I was happy to see you guys got through it in spite of my idleness.

And that's why if you're really focused on doing your DF as fast as possible, gathering a group of people you can count on is better if you don't wanna risk bad randoms. It's basically the same thing I'm saying, people have different play styles. If you have fun where everyone is on top of it, start a PF or go to your FC. But punishing someone ain't right.

I'm just speaking from personal experience where a tank got pissed off at me because I kept dying in Titan EX as a dps. I read the guide and was following the best I could until those rock bombs started
It was just five hundred things happening at once and it took me a bit to finally get it. I'm a slow learner, so it might not look like I'm trying to folks. If you don't think someone is trying, just ask 'em if they're okay instead of assuming the worst.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Some people play for fun. Its ok man. You want an a-team all the time, build a static. As a leader you'll get the respect you seem to be fishing for. More so then what you'll get for a thread like this where you come off as elitist or where you seem to be dropping hints about how great you are.

Its a game dude, relax.

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People really need to stop using the word elitist as a means of smothering discussion.

Jeez, whatever happened to communal efforts to get better in games?

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Which is why he said build your own team.

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You haven't been reading. Many bad randoms is a symptom of a large portion of the community not knowing how to play their class in any sense minimally. Having a large portion of a video games player base goes beyond "just form a static lol", it means that new content AND old content (Steps of Faith anyone? Pharos?) will be nerfed or simply released easy to appease the masses of people who can't function. It's never been simply about running into a single bad person in a roulette- that's not what the heart of this discussion is about, it's what the large masses of bad players means for the future of the game and it's Softcore/Midcore and Hardcore groups, because most content in this game won't even push a softcore player to their limits.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Which is why he said build your own team.

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Aaaaaaaaaaaaand I still don't think you get the idea of what I wrote. Duty finder is there for a reason, like I said earlier, I usually run with my own friends if not I'll wait for next day if we on same time. I often think and I should ask you; Do you realize you play with 3-7-23 other people when you join a duty finder? Or 7 others in party finder?

Okay someone say they can do whatever they want, but many and I can honestly say a lot of people often think their sub is worth more than the 3 - 7 - 23 in the groups they join in.
Why is that? Second of all, when you group up with people in your class, are you one of those people who sit back and let the rest do the work for you? Blabla it's a game, you don't need to tell me, first of all, this is also matter of respect. I highly doubt people know what respect means when you see all these people in here talk like it doesn't matter or act like it doesn't even exist. The question I'd love to see coming from you and others in here is:
What if EVERYONE had your attitude or the other people in here(talking about not even trying since, this is what I kinda get from you and your post) Do you think you would ever clear story mode trials or even dungeons? Legit answer would be good.

The sadest part isn't about how bad players play too, but how selfish people sound like. ''I don't care about you, my money my time my place, I don't care if I wipe you because I love it'' Next day on forums they can't beat content: Please nerf it, because I'm so horrible and I'd like to be the content.

100% fact there.

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Originally Posted by Kerii

I imagine you eat that penalty daily. Specially regarding Blizzard III vs Transpose... That's not as common knowledge as you think. It's like asking if I should use Thunder III + thundercloud over Fire IV. It's "meta" and not blatantly obvious unless you compare the two.

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Blizzard III straight up tells you what it does in the tool tip. It's pretty transparent compared to figuring out thunder III procs over fire IV. It's basic reading comprehension and understanding versus theorycrafting and number crafting here.

http://puu.sh/pQpZD/fca6069771.png

To be honest, if you don't understand something despite it being handed to you in a tool tip, it's kind of a poor practice, not just in games but anything in general.

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Originally Posted by self_riot

I'm just speaking from personal experience where a tank got pissed off at me because I kept dying in Titan EX as a dps. I read the guide and was following the best I could until those rock bombs started
It was just five hundred things happening at once and it took me a bit to finally get it. I'm a slow learner, so it might not look like I'm trying to folks. If you don't think someone is trying, just ask 'em if they're okay instead of assuming the worst.

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Compare this to a BLM level 60 that does nothing but blizzard I, bonus points if they are doing it intentionally. Even now people are still not getting the point of making a reasonable judgement of what people want to see in DF. No one is asking for perfection or being good at the game, but understanding the fundamentals of the game and the basics of your job. Everytime someone feels the need to rebuke that bolded sentence, I feel like they want us to just shove off to make a PF without people like that, and essentially encourage that sort of mindset in DF .

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

People don't read tooltips.

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And do we want to encourage this mindset? Not reading is a pretty piss poor practice and really won't get you far in anywhere, not just in this game.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Blizzard III straight up tells you what it does in the tool tip. It's pretty transparent compared to figuring out thunder III procs over fire IV. It's basic reading comprehension and understanding versus theorycrafting and number crafting here.

http://puu.sh/pQpZD/fca6069771.png

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People don't read tooltips.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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For a person who is claiming that reading comprehension is the reason for that particular mistake... you sure can't read very well. "Where does the game tell you that you should use Blizzard III instead of transpose, which it had you use for the first 37 levels?" It doesn't. The reason you use Blizzard III is that it regenerates mp faster, and it makes the next fire cast faster. Transpose offers a different benefit. It is cast instantly and trades AF for a single UI as it's cost. That means that there are actually situations where you should use it instead, such as when you're about to move and don't have time to stand still for three seconds. My point was and still is that it is "Meta" (Read as the optimal thing to do), and isn't common knowledge gained simply through reading a tooltip.

Are we really having am argument about Blizzard 3 and Transpose right now?

I can understand TC procs and viability of Surecast. But the uses of B3 and Transpose seem like a no brainer.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Are we really having am argument about Blizzard 3 and Transpose right now?

I can understand TC procs and viability of Surecast. But the uses of B3 and Transpose seem like a no brainer.

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My point is that is that it's a completely insignificant difference in terms of performance. We're talking losing one or two "ticks" each rotation in content where you don't actually need to play at 100% to succeed. To be precise, I'm saying that it's a completely petty and pointless reason to ditch a group.

This topic is going in circles or going into specifics. I've said my piece and heard other folks' opinions. I might still be a stubborn fool who's way too care free when it comes to games, but I will concede and understand WHY it can be frustrating for folks to have bad players.

Maybe there will be a way to make DF better for everyone, but for now, I think it's about making do with what you have.

Hope we can all learn something out of all this, have a good one ya'll. o/

Whilst I understand your frustration with wanting to get on with things without hassle, the reality of the situation is that you can't always tell what's happening on the opposite end of a keyboard. Yes, there are indeed many players who sometimes don't even try to put half of the effort that you yourself put in and sadly there always will be players like that, but I think we're at a point where it's better to just assume that you're not going to get a flawless run in the Duty Finder anyway. That doesn't mean I look the other way to genuinely lazy players; I could literally give you a list of my most recent examples where I could've torn my own hair out from the sheer frustration - but honestly, the point is that it's really not the end of the world. Chances are you won't even see those same players again, so just take a deep breath and let it go over your head.

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Originally Posted by Vnecat

... it's really not the end of the world. Chances are you won't even see those same players again, so just take a deep breath and let it go over your head.

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I think that's the best attitude you can have. If it's manageable, or at least salvageable, just roll with it and move on. A lot of players make big deals out of insignificant things which only makes the game that much worse.

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Originally Posted by Kerii

For a person who is claiming that reading comprehension is the reason for that particular mistake... you sure can't read very well. "Where does the game tell you that you should use Blizzard III instead of transpose, which it had you use for the first 37 levels?" It doesn't. The reason you use Blizzard III is that it regenerates mp faster, and it makes the next fire cast faster. Transpose offers a different benefit. It is cast instantly and trades AF for a single UI as it's cost. That means that there are actually situations where you should use it instead, such as when you're about to move and don't have time to stand still for three seconds. My point was and still is that it is "Meta" (Read as the optimal thing to do), and isn't common knowledge gained simply through reading a tooltip.

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The above implying that from level 37 to level 60, a player's thought process goes like this:

"Neat, I got a new spell. Wonder what this does and how this helps me...actually nah, ain't nobody got time for that" rather than taking 30 seconds on a mob to realize "oh hey, Blizzard III works like Fire III but backwards! That's kinda handy!"

Feel free to argue the DPS benefits of using Transpose over Blizzard III on any single target mob in an expert dungeon but to me, I smell an apologist.

The former kind of player is exactly who I'm perfectly inclined to ditch. If you feel that's petty, then more power to you.

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Originally Posted by Vnecat

the point is that it's really not the end of the world. Chances are you won't even see those same players again, so just take a deep breath and let it go over your head.

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It was mentioned in many posts before, that we should strike to try improve the whole player base. Cause if you take a deep breath and just shrug it off, there will be time when you won't be able to breath normally anymore, when under-performing becomes the norm on DF. Your suggestion is the same as some of the posters who tell people to just go play on PF or with friends, or transfer to JP server, or just quit the game, while they're valid solution, they are not really helpful :(

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Blizzard III straight up tells you what it does in the tool tip. It's pretty transparent compared to figuring out thunder III procs over fire IV. It's basic reading comprehension and understanding versus theorycrafting and number crafting here.

To be honest, if you don't understand something despite it being handed to you in a tool tip, it's kind of a poor practice, not just in games but anything in general.

Compare this to a BLM level 60 that does nothing but blizzard I, bonus points if they are doing it intentionally. Even now people are still not getting the point of making a reasonable judgement of what people want to see in DF. No one is asking for perfection or being good at the game, but understanding the fundamentals of the game and the basics of your job. Everytime someone feels the need to rebuke that bolded sentence, I feel like they want us to just shove off to make a PF without people like that, and essentially encourage that sort of mindset in DF .

And do we want to encourage this mindset? Not reading is a pretty piss poor practice and really won't get you far in anywhere, not just in this game.

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Some people have difficulty understanding the basics of life. It's not as rare as you think. I've met so many grown up people who don't get that if you add 20% to a price and then take away 20% it's not back to the original price. So it's no wonder you meet people who have difficulty understanding the basics of a game where rotations are highly dependent on potencies (not to mention positionals, I had to google what "flank" meant when leveling lancer and I got pictures of meat :D). Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's not. The fact is, random matchmaking was created to allow those players to play the game so that they may fund the development of the game. Another fact, you are going to run into them if you choose random matchmaking. The question is: what should be done about it?

Segregate them via an automatic system, like suggested in the other thread? This would create several problems some of which also affect good players. Quitting people stop funding the game. Sub-par people don't get guidance from experienced players and have an even harder time getting better (lots of people claim they give random people civil advice, well say goodbye to that). People don't see how well it's possible to play and never meet raiders so the raiding community dwindles. Upon this kind of a system's implementation new people would get rated on their learning steps whereas veterans would begin to be rated once they've already had a chance to learn the game, which is quite unfair (it would only be possible for a new player to play with the elite if they play like a veteran from the moment they create their character). Depending on the algorithm, other players could screw up someone's rating by playing badly or people could screw up their own rating by helping the team, again unfair.

Segregate them via a blacklist system that prevented b-listed people being matched? A slightly better solution, considering it only segregates specific players from each other instead of masses based on a grade. Still, some of the negatives I listed above would hold to a lesser extent.

Whine in party chat, whine on the forums, whine in linkshells and fc chat? This kind of "discouraging" is certainly possible, but does it solve anything? Probably not. Yet we have this 40+ page thread which has managed to improve an estimated amount of 0 players.

Make a premade via linkshells, friends list, fc, PF or /shout? A working solution but people avoid it with the excuse that it takes time, even though it would save time in the long run if the average player is really so bad you can't progress in roulettes. Offer advice and kick if things are not going the way the majority of the party wants? A working option and allowed by the devs. Funnily enough the two best options to deal with "bad" players are already available. I don't see how the devs could improve the situation without causing other problems like I described above.

As for the topic of "basics of a job", what would you consider fulfilling the basics of the job using a few example jobs? Anyone can answer this question by the way. It's highly subjective and it got me thinking if this is something people can agree about. What skills could a healer not use and still be decent? What about DRG, BLM, SMN, PLD, BRD or other jobs? Which skills are above and beyond the so called fundamentals? Is there a discrepancy between roles or jobs in the number of mandatory abilities when it comes to playing at a passable level?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

... Funnily enough the two best options to deal with "bad" players are already available.

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I think you've said what I was trying to get at in a much better way than I ever could. Thank you so much.

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

It was mentioned in many posts before, that we should strike to try improve the whole player base. Cause if you take a deep breath and just shrug it off, there will be time when you won't be able to breath normally anymore, when under-performing becomes the norm on DF.

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That's kind of the thing, though. If it were simply a matter of getting the same handful of players over and over and running the same content one run after the other with no improvement, then I'd definitely raise my voice and say there's something not quite right here. But when you're met with complete strangers with different experiences every single time that you enter the Duty Finder, it's a very difficult (and very mentally draining) job to try and continuously instruct them on what to do when, as I said before, chances are you're not going to see them ever again.

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Originally Posted by Vnecat

chances are you're not going to see them ever again.

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Just because you probably won't, doesn't mean you can't help them improve. The less terribads/lazies there are, the better the overall community/playerbase becomes, the better type of content we get and the less chance of wasting a 30+ min queue on a horrible pt who can't comprehend the easiest of mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Some people have difficulty understanding the basics of life. It's not as rare as you think. I've met so many grown up people who don't get that if you add 20% to a price and then take away 20% it's not back to the original price. So it's no wonder you meet people who have difficulty understanding the basics of a game where rotations are highly dependent on potencies (not to mention positionals, I had to google what "flank" meant when leveling lancer and I got pictures of meat :D). The fact is, random matchmaking was created to allow those players to play the game so that they may fund the development of the game. Another fact, you are going to run into them if you choose random matchmaking. The question is: what should be done about it?

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Just to run off your example, I'm not even looking at direcitonal potentiates either, but proper comboing (and the game highlights your friggin skills, on top of it being automatically placed in your hotbar) and really...just not standing in AoEs. "I'm new to the fight" should never be an excuse to die to a marked AoE or even cleave like npc overpower or dark fire... at level 60. I mean I won't be bothered as much as a monk who only does DK-TS-SP combos just to stay on their flank, but more often than not I'd probably point out that alternating the hits and moving would yield better results, but more on that below.


What should be done about is both communal and developmental. Going off tangent from the main topic, but nothing in this game really holds players (specifically the dps) accountable to their role, not unless it's savage or EX trials. Players aren't encouraged to play better, infact they aren't encouraged to play in consideration with their party members either (unless you count vote kicking). As far as the community is concerned, I honestly feel that people should stop defending or justifying individuals like my example (and especially those who stand by their 'I play how I want" when it's an active detriment to the party) but instead opt with walking them through (especially in leveling dungeons). The way it is right now, content that isn't EX or savage is so low-tuned that even at the min-ilvl, you can get away with clearing if one or both dps spams their 1 ability or DoT ability the entire run, the only detriment being a clear time. Its a factor in the huge content gap between easy and difficult, and players who can't/don't want to do savage raid aren't left with any challenge or middleground content.

For the record, I'm not advocating for anything to segregate the players by skill (which includes both the OP's suggestion in the other topic and avoiding DF altogether, it doesn't solve anything), but rather that everyone should be...well...playing the game in order to progress, not just button mashing or falling the burden on your party (because honestly, not even that gets you through most single player games or platformers).

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Yet we have this 40+ page thread which has managed to improve an estimated amount of 0 players.

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The reason why this keeps going on for some many pages is because of the rift of players. You have one end saying that at any point if you're telling someone how to play or they're under performing (missing the context on why or the degree of underperforming), you're an elitist. On the other end you have people (satire or not) advocating that people should be playing at their peak, whether it be healers dpsing or having melds on every single equip. I keep saying this in my posts with discussions like this; make a sensible judgement on what other people should do in a party. I'm not expecting people to be playing asi f theyt're raiding savage, or 20 minute runs thorugh DF, but I certainly as hell would get rather peeved if a level 60 DRG is spamming plethobmize on every mob and boss. I could tell him straight up that doing combos would be better, but then that also causes the rift with the aforementioned people where any sort of expectation in DF would label me as an elitist, or they'd throw the "I play how I want card", signalling that they're perfectly fine with doing almost no dps as a dps job in party play. It's happened more and more frequently after I resubbed just for this patch, and honestly I'm surprised that people are encouraging this, despite my efforts in clarifying on what I (and more often than not, half the side of the people in this argument want.)

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Just because you probably won't, doesn't mean you can't help them improve. The less terribads/lazies there are, the better the overall community/playerbase becomes, the better type of content we get and the less chance of wasting a 30+ min queue on a horrible pt who can't comprehend the easiest of mechanics.

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According to this thread, if people were willing to improve and heed given advice, then there wouldn't actually be an issue altogether. I'm personally totally up for helping people with things! I'm genuinely one of those types of people out there who go out of their way to try and maximize other player's experiences; but there's certainly a limit. Communication is a two-way thing. If people are unwilling to learn or compromise, then it's a disaster waiting to happen and best just to move on.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

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I am going to sound really elitist cruel rn but...Figuring out to use Blizzard 3 instead of Transpose requires not only reading the tooltip, but using your brain to take the pros & cons to see which is more efficient for maximum damage....which is asking a lot for those same people that don't read tool tips to begin with. I have actually told BLM(2.0) how to play a couple times before NICELY & both time I was ignored completely.


What I encounter most is the Fire 3 Blizz 3 BLM, which again requires weighing the pros & cons, if you play other FF games, Fire 3 > Fire 1 so maybe they assume it's a replacement spell ie Stone, Stone 2 & since they don't bother reading tooltips they go on thinking that because those are the types of people who need someone to TELL them how it works aka a teacher aka what mentors should do(?). I assume tooltips are similar to googling in their mind, they don't wanna have to google to learn to play. I honestly think this can all be solved with a tutorial of the skill that pops up on screen(after mobs) telling them how to use it, like if you ever played Kingdom Hearts, that. I am rambling....anyway godspeed my children

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Originally Posted by Vnecat

That's kind of the thing, though. If it were simply a matter of getting the same handful of players over and over and running the same content one run after the other with no improvement, then I'd definitely raise my voice and say there's something not quite right here. But when you're met with complete strangers with different experiences every single time that you enter the Duty Finder, it's a very difficult (and very mentally draining) job to try and continuously instruct them on what to do when, as I said before, chances are you're not going to see them ever again.

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They (Square) can, however, curve the learning processes upward. If content became progressively more difficult at a reasonably measured pace, there wouldn't be such a massive gap. The issue is dungeons have become little more than facerolls, thus allowing extremely poor play to still result in clears.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Many bad randoms is a symptom of a large portion of the community not knowing how to play their class in any sense minimally. Having a large portion of a video games player base goes beyond "just form a static lol", it means that new content AND old content (Steps of Faith anyone? Pharos?) will be nerfed or simply released easy to appease the masses of people who can't function. It's never been simply about running into a single bad person in a roulette- that's not what the heart of this discussion is about, it's what the large masses of bad players means for the future of the game and it's Softcore/Midcore and Hardcore groups, because most content in this game won't even push a softcore player to their limits.

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Look at how many people on this forum were asking for Final Steps and Weeping City to be nerfed because "it was too hard." Neither of those instances are hard if you pay attention and do your job.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Look at how many people on this forum were asking for Final Steps and Weeping City to be nerfed because "it was too hard." Neither of those instances are hard if you pay attention and do your job.

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Exactly this, there's a lack of a difficulty curve anywhere in the game beyond gimmicky fights (Steps of Faith had it's own issue besides "too difficult") that encourage players to grasp the fundamentals. Fights like Nidhogg and Weeping City are long-needed competency checks (and the very few we previously had are optional content, like the sunken temple of corn), and its astonishing that people die to telegraphed horrid roars and from a lack of healing (and this is generally because of healers dpsing during ahk morn) consider that to be hard. It's the same content we've been through, only now they decide to tune it so it actually kills you for ignoring it.

I agree to a certain extent. I absolutely hate carrying people because most of the time it's pure laziness on their part.

I will say, however, some people physically or mentally can't play as well as others. I'm aware you already included this in the OP, just this makes it harder for anything to be done about it. I once played with someone who was of old age and it took them a few tries to complete fights due to their reflexes. This is 'acceptable', whereas simply being lazy isn't, but how would anyone know the difference?

I completely understand your thread but I'm afraid it's a problem that has no solution without harming genuine players. (I'm aware this has probably already been said too, but I'm on my phone and don't really want to read 45 pages just to check.)

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

People really need to stop using the word elitist as a means of smothering discussion.

Jeez, whatever happened to communal efforts to get better in games?

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I'll use the word that fits. His thread is about how much better he is and how much worse everyone is doing then him. Its elitist so I call it that.

There is no communal effort to improve the game. He isn't offering advice to play better. He isn't offering ideas for content to train players. At best the OP is a rant. And in his rant he comes off as elitist, and that's fine. If he has worked hard enough to be as good as he says, then he has earned that. But don't try to deny what it is and call it constructive criticism because its not.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

I'll use the word that fits. His thread is about how much better he is and how much worse everyone is doing then him. Its elitist so I call it that.

There is no communal effort to improve the game. He isn't offering advice to play better. He isn't offering ideas for content to train players. At best the OP is a rant. And in his rant he comes off as elitist, and that's fine. If he has worked hard enough to be as good as he says, then he has earned that. But don't try to deny what it is and call it constructive criticism because its not.

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:rolleyes: If you say so. I have a jarring feeling that a Cry Wolf mentality is going to be emerging soon, but more along the lines of Cry Elitist. Eventually people are going to block out the word due to its overuse and then players may actually have issues with a true elitist and everyone will assume they're just being delicate.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

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To me, his thread is not elitist, but venting about lazy players while still acknowledging the fact that a solution would be difficult.

As I said previously, I don't fully support the thread, due to players who can't help either their slow learning or slow game play, but it doesn't take away from the fact that there are players who are willing to stand at the entrance of a dungeon and let you finish it for them if you let them.

My opinion on the subject is neutral, but I wouldn't call the OP elitist.