The arrogance of some people

I like how people come here to post "oh look, this thread again" as if they're being made to read through it and simply can't ignore it if it doesn't hold any interest to them. It's no surprise that this subject (among many others like parser use and STR tanks) keeps being brought up again and again, because it's obviously something important that's worth talking about.

It's not even about different playstyles, it's a fact that there are many moments in fights where healing does not need to be done (provided the tank and dps aren't made of tracing paper and know how to dodge, because there ARE times when you have to be the babysitter of the group) and standing there doing absolutely nothing or appearing to look useful by overhealing the tank with a cure whenever they drop below 100% HP is absolutely worthless and a disservice to the other people you're playing with. You can't full-time heal in this game simply because that is not how this game was designed.

Stop locking yourself on your role and say to yourself "I'm not gonna do this because I am ___ role, even if I have the ability to do so". A SMN refusing to use Raise when healers can't is crappy, a NIN refusing to use Goad, Shadewalker, or Smokescreen, is crappy. A properly-geared tank who spams the agro combo is crappy. A BRD refusing to sing is crappy. A healer who refuses to help DPS provided that there is downtime is crappy.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...There's good points being made? All I've seen over these 40 pages is that people classed as DPS don't know how to dps apparently, even in savage and need to be carried by healers.

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You realize there's a point at which DPS are performing optimally and actually physically can't do more damage with the gear they currently have, right? If you aren't clearing at that point, you can either wait till you get more gear or find the damage elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Odett

blah

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We go "this again" because it's just another topic that does nothing but go in circles and people think THIS time will be the one people will "see the truth", despite the same old stories posted time and time again. I wouldn't be surprised if people just copypasta their previous replies just to save time. People are more stubborn than a wall no matter which side of the fence you're on. /thread.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Ninjas have to also manage others threat and TP, while keeping up our own dots, and debuffs. With ahealers argument, that's completely optional.. so why should I bother anymore?

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I can't find the post. Anyway someone made a post about how a 'good' healer can drop roughly 1,000dps on a group of trash mobs, and roughly 600dps on a boss. There are tanks that can drop some heavy dps as well. In this post, it was stated (This isn't exact quote, I apologize) "If you have a healer and tank that dps, it's basically like having another compitent dps." Really, numerous other posts spit out numbers and go about stating this same thing, just less poinent than the one I am referencing.

So...I'm not being salty...I have read other posts....According to most of you, Tank dps + Healer dps = another dps in party. Logically, this means we don't need one dps in a party. Dorander....we dont' need you man, you want us to do your job, that means you don't have to.

I'll never understand the whole, "Well, they're not doing their best, so why should I?". It's a horrid way to play an MMO and an even worse attitude for real life.

No, it means we want to clear dungeons even faster because we've seen them 327058275279 times. Even shaving 2 minutes off of what would've been a 20 minute dungeon is a 10% speed increase. Shaving off 5 is a 25% speed increase.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

So...I'm not being salty...I have read other posts....According to most of you, Tank dps + Healer dps = another dps in party. Logically, this means we don't need one dps in a party. Dorander....we dont' need you man, you want us to do your job, that means you don't have to.

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This just sounds like you're complaining about things being done faster and more efficiently. Yet again, not a single person here asking for Healer's to DPS is telling them to BE a DPS, just to contribute with their DPS spells while they don't need to heal/buff. Healers do get enough down time for this.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

So...I'm not being salty...I have read other posts....According to most of you, Tank dps + Healer dps = another dps in party. Logically, this means we don't need one dps in a party. Dorander....we dont' need you man, you want us to do your job, that means you don't have to.

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Your response would only make sense if there was a cap on group DPS.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

We go "this again" because it's just another topic that does nothing but go in circles and people think THIS time will be the one people will "see the truth", despite the same old stories posted time and time again. I wouldn't be surprised if people just copypasta their previous replies just to save time. People are more stubborn than a wall no matter which side of the fence you're on. /thread.

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yeah sorry it's gonna keep going

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

You realize there's a point at which DPS are performing optimally and actually physically can't do more damage with the gear they currently have, right? If you aren't clearing at that point, you can either wait till you get more gear or find the damage elsewhere.

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I suppose that is true, so ignore my comment on savage. It still holds true that healers are expected to carry bad*DPS in non savage content though. There's already several posts in this very thread that basically say, from the healers that DPS at every opportunity, "Go ahead and be bad DPS, we'll carry you", though, which is what I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

I can't find the post. Anyway someone made a post about how a 'good' healer can drop roughly 1,000dps on a group of trash mobs, and roughly 600dps on a boss. There are tanks that can drop some heavy dps as well. In this post, it was stated (This isn't exact quote, I apologize) "If you have a healer and tank that dps, it's basically like having another compitent dps." Really, numerous other posts spit out numbers and go about stating this same thing, just less poinent than the one I am referencing.

So...I'm not being salty...I have read other posts....According to most of you, Tank dps + Healer dps = another dps in party. Logically, this means we don't need one dps in a party. Dorander....we dont' need you man, you want us to do your job, that means you don't have to.

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Your conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't understand why you think that having 3 DPS is the same as having 2 DPS?

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Sounds like someone else isn't reading the posts. Skimming maybe? It's ok, it's a lot to take in, I forgive you.

You're idea of people suggesting white mage dps is optional is very....loose. I see a lot of people saying you are bad if you don't do it...that is kind of a shitty option, isn't it? 'If you don't dps as healer. You are bad.' doesn't sound like much of an option to me.

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Sure is, you have the option to be bad.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

The dungeon is desiend to get through with 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps. Tank dps + healer dps = 1 dps. Cut out the extra dps...it's optional...we dont' need him. Now we have 1 Healer (DPS) + 1 Tank (DPS) + 1 DPS (DPS). The second one is now optional, we don't need him. It's faster, but not required.

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Hmm true, Fractals and Neverreap were designed to be done in i145-170 gear. We should probably carry those around and swap to an i160 gearset when we run them too.

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

This just sounds like you're complaining about things being done faster and more efficiently. Yet again, not a single person here asking for Healer's to DPS is telling them to BE a DPS, just to contribute with their DPS spells while they don't need to heal/buff. Healers do get enough down time for this.

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Sounds like someone else isn't reading the posts. Skimming maybe? It's ok, it's a lot to take in, I forgive you.

You're idea of people suggesting white mage dps is optional is very....loose. I see a lot of people saying you are bad if you don't do it...that is kind of a shitty option, isn't it? 'If you don't dps as healer. You are bad.' doesn't sound like much of an option to me.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Your conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't understand why you think that having 3 DPS is the same as having 2 DPS?

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The dungeon is desiend to get through with 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps. Tank dps + healer dps = 1 dps. Cut out the extra dps...it's optional...we dont' need him. Now we have 1 Healer (DPS) + 1 Tank (DPS) + 1 DPS (DPS). The second one is now optional, we don't need him. It's faster, but not required.

People can't agree on this topic because whenever it's discussed, each person posting changes the scenario to whichever supports the position they want. Is it reasonable for other party members to ask the healer to do more DPS? It depends on the situation.

a) Healer throwing out an occasional heal, and otherwise standing around doing nothing most of the time. Another party member asks them to DPS. Is that a reasonable request? Yes.

b) Healer is swamped with trying to keep everyone alive due to a squishy tank, poor threat management party wide, people standing in avoidable AoE, or whatever, so there's no chance for the healer to DPS. Another party member asks them to DPS. Is that a reasonable request? No.

There is no right answer to whether it's justifiable to ask a healer to DPS, because both answers have times when they're correct.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I suppose that is true, so ignore my comment on savage. It still holds true that healers are expected to carry bad*DPS in non savage content though. There's already several posts in this very thread that basically say, from the healers that DPS at every opportunity, "Go ahead and be bad DPS, we'll carry you", though, which is what I take issue with.

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A healer should never be blamed for a wipe due to a DPS check if DPS players are underperfoming, but at the same time it's also a little childish not to play your best when someone else isn't. Nothing's gonna get done if you go around with that mentality, you know? A bad DPS in the group isn't going to keep me from playing my best or doing what I'd normally do in a better scenario (hey, it's like parsers could hold DPS accountable for playing poorly and everyone would see when the lowest performing DPS blames a healer for not meeting a group dps check, but that's another topic altogether).

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I suppose that is true, so ignore my comment on savage. It still holds true that healers are expected to carry bad*DPS in non savage content though. There's already several posts in this very thread that basically say, from the healers that DPS at every opportunity, "Go ahead and be bad DPS, we'll carry you", though, which is what I take issue with.

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Most of the people posting in this thread supporting Whm dps would take issue with that as well. Everyone in the party should be using their full potential, no matter what content it is. What is the point of playing an MMO if you aren't out to better your characters? Even if you aren't looking for Hardcore EG, you would still better yourself as much as you can. Sure you could play for the storyline, but then why would you want to be doing these dungeons which don't count? (not actually meaning you yourself here, just people in general) Healer's standing around doing nothing when there are no heals needed, or overhealing when it isn't needed could be using that time to just add their dps to what is already being generated, kill things that tiny bit faster, which even assists in less damage if mobs die faster.

If you're a healer who doesn't wanna DPS (or really any player in any role who doesn't feel like they wanna use their whole toolkit in situations where it would be appropriate because "not my job"), then don't. Nobody can make you. You may get some grief from people who think it's dumb that you spend 75% of your time in an instance doing literally nothing. Some people might kick you for it. Some people may just complain. Who cares what they think, right? Play how you want and move along.

The problem comes when you complain that people are upset with your playstyle. Fact: that playstyle is not efficient. Stop trying to tell people that they should just accept that. If you're not contributing as much as you can on purpose, they have every right to complain/kick you: you're essentially harassing them. (Personal opinion: that's an overreaction when the problem could just be ignored with some patience, but the fact remains)

Also, nowhere in this game does it say "a healer's job is to only (x)". Never happens. They categorize the jobs based on their toolkits to make sure that a random party has access to all different skill types in order to maximize their chance of clearing the instance. That is literally ALL your role is. It doesn't come with a job description or any sort of limitation. You are imposing that on yourself. That is why people get frustrated with you. You are only contributing 70% of what you could be to the group because of artificial, self-imposed restraints.

As long as this game is set up where healers can do more DPS in their off-time than they have support spells in their toolkit to increase the actual DPS's output (or changed to where there is no healer downtime), there will be NO CHANGE to the meta. Sorry. Can we be done now?

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

There is no right answer to whether it's justifiable to ask a healer to DPS, because both answers have times when they're correct.

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Quit making sense! Not allowed! Get out of here with that stuff! lol

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

If you're not contributing as much as you can, they have every right to complain/kick you: you're essentially harassing them.

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hmmm.... so next time I'm sat at less than a 1000 mp and a bard doesn't sing ballad for me when I ask nicely, I can kick them for harassment?
or if I tank and require goad and don't get it...
they're not using their full tool set...

what a lovely community we have <3

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Sure is, you have the option to be bad.

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If it was an option in the first place, which it isn't. When people are kicked or harassed to the point of leaving, it isn't an option anymore, then let the healers take it without getting all bitchy. 'Healers that don't dps are bad' is an opinion. A bad one that that, but that is also an opinion. I go back to my original statement. Do whatever you want be it dps or heal, either way, you will get judged, and you will be bitched at if judgement was not deemed acceptable. This is fact.

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

hmmm.... so next time I'm sat at less than a 1000 mp and a bard doesn't sing ballad for me when I ask nicely, I can kick them for harassment?
or if I tank and require goad and don't get it...
they're not using their full tool set...

what a lovely community we have <3

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Um, if their mentality is "it's not my job to manage YOUR MP" or "it's not my job to manage threat, I'm not the tank." Then, yes, yes you can.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

'Healers that don't dps are bad' is an opinion.

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If no significant damage is going out and I'm just standing there as a healer doing nothing, or worse, overhealing, then I'm bad. Sorry, bud, there's no other way around that because let me repeat myself again, this game was not designed around healers healing full time. THAT is a fact and you can enter any dungeon and easily notice it. Me maining DRK, spamming Power Slash combo, and not using Darkside would also make me bad. Sure, I CAN play like that if I want, there's nothing stopping me, but I also lose all right to complain when I get kicked from a group and expect people to sympathize with me.

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

hmmm.... so next time I'm sat at less than a 1000 mp and a bard doesn't sing ballad for me when I ask nicely, I can kick them for harassment?
or if I tank and require goad and don't get it...
they're not using their full tool set...

what a lovely community we have <3

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Indeed, they aren't helping the party as completely as they can

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Um, if their mentality is "it's not my job to manage YOUR MP" or "it's not my job to manage threat, I'm not the tank." Then, yes, yes you can.

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cool cool,

because TBH healers can't win, tanks get comms just for showing up, I keep everybody at 100% and shielded i'm "lazy" I stance dance like a pro which means I sometimes yo-yo the tanks HP "I'm bad at healing"...

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

cool cool,

because TBH healers can't win, tanks get comms just for showing up, I keep everybody at 100% and shielded i'm "lazy" I stance dance like a pro which means I sometimes yo-yo the tanks HP "I'm bad at healing"...

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I main a SCH. This is far from my experience in-game. I never get accused of being lazy or being a bad healer. I just show up, do my best, nobody ever has anything bad to say. Comms are nice, I get them often, but not all the time. IDK, I feel like this is normal.

If you're getting reamed by your parties constantly, has it occurred to you that you may actually be doing something wrong?

ETA for some humor: If you're after comms, the best way to do it is to let a DPS die and then insta-res them. They will assume they stood in a mechanic or something and that you were right on top of it for saving them so fast. Works EVERY time. Now, whether or not those comms were because you were a "good" healer is debatable. :)

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

tanks get comms just for showing up.

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What? That is ridiculous, you have no idea if that is true or not.

Just depends on the people that are in the party. Sorry you're having bad luck with comms >.>

On topic: I really don't care if a healer DPS's or not, as long as we get through faster than the speed of snail. although if you are standing around pressing no buttons I do question how you are not falling asleep at your machine.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

What? That is ridiculous, you have no idea if that is true or not.

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QFT: I get more comms as a healer than a tank. Prolly cause I'm an alright healer and a really crappy tank. Ahahaha....

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I main a SCH. This is far from my experience in-game. (snip)
If you're getting reamed by your parties constantly, has it occurred to you that you may actually be doing something wrong?

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Oh no, I never get anything bad in parties, just the usual "hello" at most, if I'm lucky, but the way these massive threads pop up on the forums every month or so about if/when/should a healer DPS, it just feels like that's how it is, coming from the noisy minority here.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

While what you said is true about it being useless in cleric stance. I personally feel lustrate has gotten better with the ability to crit. I've been healing far more per lustrate in 3.x content than I ever did in ARR.

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The ability to crit sure is delicious but I'd take knowing that three Lustrates will restore 75%, each & every time whichever stance I'm in over what it became. Heck, I'd settle for status quo with the addition of Benediction as a cross-skill. It's all down to situation & game play style though really; I just like to have a safety net spell for when things go terribad. XD

I can accept that healers can/should dps when they have nothing to do but how many seconds of healing downtime can you have before dps is "required".
Some people are skilled enough to weave in some dps-skills in between one or two gcd. But others will trip over their skills when they try to do that and perhaps even lead to tank death when they are too late to resume healing. Lets see how dps efficient that is :P.

And did anyone did any real life tests as to how much healer dps actually speeds up killing of mobs/shortening dungeon run time? Same with tank dps?

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

You must not run with any Warriors, Dragoons, Monks, Bards, or Machinists that use their AoE skills on a regular basis.

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Oh all the time but in almost every case pretty much everything is dead by the time they run out of TP so any TP buff is rather pointless since they are usually back to full by the next pull. This is Dungeon Finder Roulettes we are talking about.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

QFT: I get more comms as a healer than a tank. Prolly cause I'm an alright healer and a really crappy tank. Ahahaha....

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Lol Maybe, hard to say, comms seem very random. Like I got 3 on monk the other day.... I really suck at monk, and I despise it too, but OCD compels me to finish all the jobs, and that is one on the list /sigh, all I could think though, is that either A. they were in a premade or B. they were drunk... then there is the very unlikely C. that I don't suck at monk as bad as I think I do.

I'm leaning at B, personally.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

I can accept that healers can/should dps when they have nothing to do but how many seconds of healing downtime can you have before dps is "required".
Some people are skilled enough to weave in some dps-skills in between one or two gcd. But others will trip over their skills when they try to do that and perhaps even lead to tank death when they are too late to resume healing. Lets see how dps efficient that is :P.

And did anyone did any real life tests as to how much healer dps actually speeds up killing of mobs/shortening dungeon run time? Same with tank dps?

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When healers DPS, they typically do between 15 and 20% of the DPS of the team. So they speed it up by that amount (or more due to possible phase skipping). Actually, this is under-represented, because that 15-20% is of the new higher total team DPS, so it's more like 17-25%.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Oh all the time but in almost every case pretty much everything is dead by the time they run out of TP so any TP buff is rather pointless since they are usually back to full by the next pull. This is Dungeon Finder Roulettes we are talking about.

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This is probably due to them managing their TP, as it gets low they swap to using less TP intensive skills. It's actually an incorrect way to DPS, because the AoE is still more TP efficient compared to Damage Dealt. That said, if you throw goad on them, their TP won't drop as quickly and they'll continue to use the heavy TP intensive (and DPS efficient) skills.

So they would turn a 30 minute fight into a 25-26 minute fight? or a 20 second trash mob encounter would take 17 seconds if the healer pitched in. Seems underwhelming somehow in non raid situations.
And the encounter damage time is not taking wasted damage into account, damage spells that go off but hit after the mob is already dead. I witness this all too often as bard.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

So they would turn a 30 minute fight into a 25-26 minute fight? or a 20 second trash mob encounter would take 17 seconds if the healer pitched in. Seems underwhelming somehow in non raid situations.

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In terms of bosses healers won't super speed up the fight, but if there's room to DPS and nothing to heal then there's no real excuse for not speeding things along. For trash though, healers significantly speed that up - especially if you pull half the room.

There's also the consideration of where you're at in the run. For instance, in DF, when I'm healing and don't know any of the other party members, I start out pretty conservative. I want a chance to see just how good the tank and DPS are at threat management and damage avoidance before I decide how much I can afford to switch into damage mode. If all is going well, then I'll stance dance and throw out a bunch of damage during the rest of the run. If not, then I'll just stick with healing. But it's annoying to be reprimanded for not doing very much DPS during the first pull, when I'm still trying to determine how much is going to be possible with this party. (Maybe more experienced healers are better at this than I am, though.)

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

In terms of bosses healers won't super speed up the fight, but if there's room to DPS and nothing to heal then there's no real excuse for not speeding things along.

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Depends on the boss. In Arboretum, having the healer kill the adds against the Malboro boss is a huge time save, especially if you've got a melee or two. Same applies to the second and final bosses of Fractal, the first boss of Neverreap and the first boss of Sirius HM. And letting healers do the slime mechanic in the second fight of Sirius HM is a big help too.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

When I'm tanking I feel really bad when the healer keep me at 100% HP at all times, It feels like I'm doing so bad that I need a babysitter all times, I feel like trash. Meanwhile when I see that the healer is able to DPS and keep me alive, even if I go under 20%, I feel confident, then I know that I'm doing a good job mitigating damage.

But that's just me.

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Thank you! We need more tanks like you. I had a DRK the other day that popped living dead every time he hit 50%. He never even got down to 20%. I won't try to speak for other healers, but if I let you get down that far its because I have faith in you. Don't lose your faith in me. WHM has tetra and bene, SCH has lustrate, AST has ED, bene II procs, and light speed. Your healer can get you up instantly. Just relax.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

So...I'm not being salty...I have read other posts....According to most of you, Tank dps + Healer dps = another dps in party. Logically, this means we don't need one dps in a party. Dorander....we dont' need you man, you want us to do your job, that means you don't have to.

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Once again, you treat it as if there is a cap on how much DPS can be done in a fight and as if it would render the DPS useless if both tank and healer deal a nice amount of dmg too.
But that's not how this works. If you bring 4 DPS to the dungeon, it simply means you have doubled the DPS and thereby halved the time everyone has to spend in there. I do not understand why you are so so salty about having to contribute to only stay in the dungeon 10 instead of 20 minutes.
Again, there is no DPS cap. If you have 2 absolutely awesome DPS players, you get 3000 DPS. If you add in healer and tank, you get 4800 on trash. Does that make one of them obsolete? Nope, it just means whatever you've been doing is done faster. Horrible, I know, right?;)

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

I can accept that healers can/should dps when they have nothing to do but how many seconds of healing downtime can you have before dps is "required".
Some people are skilled enough to weave in some dps-skills in between one or two gcd. But others will trip over their skills when they try to do that and perhaps even lead to tank death when they are too late to resume healing.

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So people are "tripping over their skills" and we are still not allowed to call them bad?._.
I mean, hey, it's okay to not dps at all if you can't do it without letting the tank die, but can you really defend people calling themselves awesome players when they mess up as soon as they are asked to do more than spam Cure/Benefic/Physick? That is literally only using ONE button, something we call bad DPS players out for all the time.
I can get a party safely through any dungeon never doing anything but hitting 1 on my keyboard. Heck, as SCH, I can go through most dungeons afk-following the tank since the fairy does most of the job...and people are proud of that?
That is no different from a DPS only hitting 1 over and over as well, and no one would defend that as being good.

To answer your actual question: how much healing downtime you have depends on how skilled you are. No one starts out perfect, just throwing out DoTs before the tank goes below 50% HP is a good start :)
That's also where skills other than basic cures get their right to exist from - if you constantly keep your tank topped off anyway, there is no need for neither regen nor shielding (since you heal any dmg right away anyway).
But both shields and regen give you more time before the tank drops dangerously low, which means more time to deal dmg yourself. And if you are good, you will learn to read the flow of battle and be able to let a tank drop VERY low before saving him with your big instant heals (Benediction, ED, etc.). Of course, try not to overestimate yourself - your first and foremost job obviously still is to keep everyone alive. But actual skill in healing lies in keeping someone alive whose life is actually in danger ;)
And that's something you only get in 1 of 3 situations:
1. big amounts of incoming dmg in raids (a situation not applicable here, because dungeons aren't that hard)
2. people failing mechanics so hard that they are constantly on the brink of death (no one in their right mind complains about a healer healing when it's necessary, but these situations shouldn't be happening in the first place)
3. you create the situation yourself, preferably by doing something useful while waiting for the tank to get lower than 100% HP :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Depends on the boss. In Arboretum, having the healer kill the adds against the Malboro boss is a huge time save, especially if you've got a melee or two. Same applies to the second and final bosses of Fractal, the first boss of Neverreap and the first boss of Sirius HM. And letting healers do the slime mechanic in the second fight of Sirius HM is a big help too.

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I don't like this at all. I don't mind Healers contributing to a burning a boss down, but relying on Healers to not only do that, keep the party up, and do what is suppose to be DPS mechanics, is just wrong to me, and promotes lazy DPS.