Booing when Coil2 Nerf was announced

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Originally Posted by Artiste

Yeah, does guys... If they want difficulty, they should go with as low gear as possible

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That's not an option: extreme content must be clearable only for few people (or greater number if the server is populated by motivated people) . That's why it's hardcore. There's casual and hardcore contents (CT/ST and Coil), I see no problems in that sincerely.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

That's not an option: extreme content must be clearable only for few people (or greater number if the server is populated by motivated people) . That's why it's hardcore. There's casual and hardcore contents (CT/ST and Coil), I see no problems in that sincerely.

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It's not like this ?

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Originally Posted by Artiste

@Tiggy : They can had 50% eccho buff if they want, noob never gonna pass T7, this never gonna be a free kill.

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Oh I understand that completely. SE isn't foolish enough to do the super nerf that some players want, and I know there will always be some mechanics that keep these fights tough enough to make them useful for learning. I just wish people expecting the super nerf would think more about the side effects of that request and less about themselves and to make some attempt to understand why it's good for the game.

It would also be nice if this assumption that all raiders are terrible vitriolic people would go away too. I help people clear T5 all the time, some I see pass it on as little as their 3rd attempt ever (Part of the reason why I know the difficulty is just fine), and I know others do the same to help. This image that we are all elitist jerks isn't even remotely true. Every group has it's jerks and raiders are no different. In my time playing MMO's I've seen just as many casual jerks as elitist ones. Some people are just jerks. Some casual players in these very threads are worse than the raiders they insult and that's a pattern I frequently see in threads like this. Many people from both sides argue their points very nicely and in a friendly way, but the ones that loose their temper the quickest and jump to insults tend to be from the non raiding camp. That's just my personal observation anyway.

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Originally Posted by Artiste

It's not like this ?

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Yes, it is and I am fine with this system. Just answering to people who want an easier version of hardcore contents. I don't care if the old coil will be easier, because it will be easier in any way cause of higher item level you gain with time, I just care about the extreme content, basically FCOB starting from 28 October. Troubles here is people cannot even kill Coil fights with echo and higher item level, for them there's no hope, it's not necessary after all, it's not the main quest story. I just saw a pair of healers dying at Titan HM with echo this morning, game mechanics cannot fix brain lag.

If some players want to do Final Coil of Bahamut, and they cant pass T5 with 110 ilvl and eccho buff... They should just stop the game, or just do the 4 donjons and trials, there is no hope for them, they need to understand this (they can blame other players as much as they want, it's not always the others)

I'm ok for a small nerf, and maybe after weeks, a bigger nerf, for SCOB, when FCOB come out, like 5, then 10, then 15 and at the 20, like they did on FCOB is i'm not misstaken.
But, they should never nerf savage mode, and not Final Coil before the 3.0 (savage mode gon na be nerf anyway when ppl gonna do it with more ilvl...)

If they do like this, I dont see anything wrong here, and I dont understand on what ppl are complaining about.
I just hope they dont put 20% eccho the first week, that's too much.

In the truth, thinking about it, I also do not mind too much if they put an easy version of last Coil content if there will be no achievements, no titles and no drops for the story mode.
It will be just useless to do it but if people are curious about cut scenes they can watch them with their own resolution instead of youtube them, at least. In that case end game will stay Coil (or new raid name) Hard mode and Extreme (Savage) for people who want more (but need something better than a title, btw).

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Originally Posted by Artiste

If they do like this, I dont see anything wrong here, and I dont understand on what ppl are complaining about.
I just hope they dont put 20% eccho the first week, that's too much.

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It pretty much going to be implemented like first turn was http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...6/blog/993252/ by the time the full effect happens the Final coil of Bahumut will been defeated and farm by most hardcore crowds. People tend to hyperbole arguement on both sides it to hard or it going to be nerf into the ground in reality it going be in the middle ground area.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

That's not an option: extreme content must be clearable only for few people (or greater number if the server is populated by motivated people) . That's why it's hardcore. There's casual and hardcore contents (CT/ST and Coil), I see no problems in that sincerely.

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FFS stop already. Do you see how air-headed you look right now?

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Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

FFS stop already. Do you see how air-headed you look right now?

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I am sorry but no, I see a classic end game contents design for MMORPG. There will be always people who can do certain things and people who cannot. It's life. Something that get hardcore players in an higher level must be there and no ways things can change about that. MMORPG life is reward based both for progress or gear, you cannot change years of gameplay just because you cannot do that (or better, you do not want to do it because of your laziness).

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

I am sorry but no, I see a classic end game contents design for MMORPG. There will be always people who can do certain things and people who cannot. It's life. Something that get hardcore players in an higher level must be there and no ways things can change about that. MMORPG life is reward based both for progress or gear, you cannot change years of gameplay just because you cannot do that (or better, you do not want to do it because of your laziness).

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True that. Bad players are just bad players. Nerfing and adding stacks of echo buff doesn't help them improve. Just gives them an illusion that they're "good." It's not the game system nor the "elitist players" fault a bad player is terrible at the game lol. After they beat the specific instance they were stuck on for a long time, these bad players then do the following harder instance and then complain once more that it's too hard and blame the game system and "elitist players." They then repeat this process multiple times and then complain on the forums for sympathy.

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Originally Posted by Artiste

If some players want to do Final Coil of Bahamut, and they cant pass T5 with 110 ilvl and eccho buff... They should just stop the game, or just do the 4 donjons and trials, there is no hope for them, they need to understand this (they can blame other players as much as they want, it's not always the others)

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^ This guy sums it up quite well.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Many people from both sides argue their points very nicely and in a friendly way, but the ones that loose their temper and jump to insults the quickest tend to be from the non raiding camp. That's just my personal observation anyway.

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Exhibit A.

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Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

FFS stop already. Do you see how air-headed you look right now?

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And people call the raiders vitriolic or toxic.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

... There will be always people who can do certain things and people who cannot. It's life.... you cannot change years of gameplay just because you cannot...

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FYI, this is a game, not real life. And although true that there will always be differences in ability, skill, knowledge and etc., SE know full well that it can change, gameplay, gear level, and any other things and it will within its rights to do so. And it is smart both for the game and community to make older content more accessible so newer player, and newbies can be at the starting line for newer content sooner. You may well believe "you cannot change years of gameplay", but SE is showing you the changes.

In the bigger picture, they are really not changing all that much. They are replacing SCOB with FCOB, so it really is the more things change the more they stay the same. And if people that want to patiently wait 6 months to get to the last patch content with lowered difficulty, what is so wrong with that? All that we see is contempt and hatred newer players of newbies, which you like to label as "bad" or "lazy" which couldn't be further from the truth. Players starting on this game tomorrow, a week from now, or a months/year from now should have reasonable path to the latest content (FCOB in this case), and get to do T5, T9 as side quests.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

FYI, this is a game, not real life. And although true that there will always be differences in ability, skill, knowledge and etc., SE know full well that it can change, gameplay, gear level, and any other things and it will within its rights to do so. And it is smart both for the game and community to make older content more accessible so newer player, and newbies can be at the starting line for newer content sooner. You may well believe "you cannot change years of gameplay", but SE is showing you the changes.

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You obviously didn't read my previous messages about it, better to check it. :P
Square-Enix wont change hardcore contents. If a story mode will happen in the future, be sure you will not get hard/extreme mode drops and of course, end game progress. If you watch a cut-scene or no, it doesn't matter to me till end game rewards and progress will remain available only by clearing raids with a specific difficulty (high+).

It's useless talking about that, it's logic: you can only blame to watch cut-scenes through youtube and not with your own resolution.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

It's useless talking about that, it's logic: you can only blame to watch cut-scenes through youtube and not with your own resolution.

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If we learn anything from savage that Yoshi-P wanted to provide a harder challenge is not many people seem willing to do it without rewards also in place so much for I do it for the challege part. Same probably goes for the story mode when release people will do it, but for the most part will likely be going to the regular coils that will have echo and the mildly adjustment mechanics, like we currently have for the first coil to get those rewards. The youtube excuse is simple really to answer for people they don't want to watch others acheivements they would rather experience for themselves really if that upsets you sorry.

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Originally Posted by odintius

If we learn anything from savage that Yoshi-P wanted to provide a harder challenge is not many people seem willing to do it without rewards also in place so much for I do it for the challege part. Same probably goes for the story mode when release people will do it, but for the most part will likely be going to the regular coils that will have echo and the mildly adjustment mechanics, like we currently have for the first coil to get those rewards. The youtube excuse is simple reallyto answer for people they don't want to watch others acheivements they would rather experience for themselves really if that upsets you sorry.

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I already answered at that:

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Originally Posted by Chero Kuri

In the truth, thinking about it, I also do not mind too much if they put an easy version of last Coil content if there will be no achievements, no titles and no drops for the story mode.
It will be just useless to do it but if people are curious about cut scenes they can watch them with their own resolution instead of youtube them, at least. In that case end game will stay Coil (or new raid name) Hard mode and Extreme (Savage) for people who want more (but need something better than a title, btw).

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Peace. :P

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

I already answered at that:

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Huh?! Nobody is asking you any questions and parroting someone else's post does not make it any more valid. Currently what SE has done now for existing T5, and EX primals works well enough and their own data shows it. They will do the same for SCOB, when they roll out its replacement. This is their game plan/road map that they've made very clear from the beginning. This what the player base wants and expects. There is nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Auron_Wolf

brain diarrhea

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I weep for your lack of shame.

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Originally Posted by Auron_Wolf

cringeworthy long post.

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What the hell did I just read?

Auron_Wolf. It doesn't seem like you really read the thread at all and instead decided to use stereotypes in the form of memes. The way you purposefully desparage and diminish people's effort and time investment as wasteful and pointless is insulting to others. What they value is non of your concern and coming here and insulting it doesn't make your argument more correct or valid. While I'm at it you're the only person here who brought up "virtual status" or anything like it.

This would be Exhibit B for me.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Auron_Wolf. It doesn't seem like you really read the thread at all and instead decided to use stereotypes in the form of memes. The way you purposefully desparage and diminish people's effort and time investment as wasteful and pointless is insulting to others. What they value is non of your concern and coming here and insulting it doesn't make your argument more correct or valid. While I'm at it you're the only person here who brought up "virtual status" or anything like it.

This would be Exhibit B for me.

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i delete the reply, going to post that in other thread and didn't notice i have other windows open and post it in the wrong place, sorry just ignore it.

menuda metida de pata :/

Mistakes happen. That other thread has definitely gone more off the deep end than this one.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

They just don't want it nerfed completely to the lowest common denominator...

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And what IS the 'lowest common denominator'? Realize that, again, the end-game community is STILL a minority among the community as a whole. Especially the end-game community that adamantly opposes lessening of difficulties because 'reasons'. I've done near all of Turns 1-5 and people still have to be attentive, still have to be able to pull their weight more should things go south, and still need to be given pointers as to what to do. The Turns that have been nerfed haven't been 'nerfed into the ground' (is it so hard to silence ADS?!) Yes, once lethal mechanics can now be ignored, big deal! Is the end-game raiding ego so easily bruised that a slight lessening of difficulty in Coil will result in internal bleeding?

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

And what IS the 'lowest common denominator'?

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They want tank and spank. Many people do want it to be that easy and they argue vehemently for it. These are the "Story mode" people who just want to watch cut scenes, or just don't have the skill it takes to beat it. (by their own admition in many posts)

My perspective comes entirely from a point of game balance. Not stroking my epeen, and It has nothing to do with any ego. I recently quit raiding a few weeks ago and have no intention of resuming until the expansion at the earliest. So please don't assume you know me, what I do, or what pleasures I get out of it.

If you read most of my threads you would see I personally have no issue with the way SE has chosen to slowly nerf the old content at all. A minor tweak to ADS, echo, and better gear were plenty in my opinion as they kept many of the mechanics in place. I have a problem who want it to be even easier than that so that anyone and their dog can face roll it. If new players don't have a progression system that slowly ramps up in difficulty we will see a situation where average game skill decreases unless you are someone actually tackling the harder content. The only content would be super easy or super hard. There will be no middle ground between easy and hard, and that will discourage people further and propagate an even more extreme skill gap than we already see today.

You won't hurt my ego by making the fights easier, but you may very well hurt the game and I do care about that.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Is the end-game raiding ego so easily bruised that a slight lessening of difficulty in Coil will result in internal bleeding?

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Exhibit C.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

..but you may very well hurt the game and I do care about that.

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I've been largely silent on the forums but what you said is what I fear could happen. Between new 2.4 gear and echo, I hope SE doesn't ease up on the one shot mechanics much. My reasoning is that if the easements go too far (along with bloated ilevel and echo) people will clear the content with a false sense of accomplishment, head in to final coil, get roflstomped, and start demanding nerfs. I can understand those that don't like OHK or wipe mechanics, but they do help players learn more about their class, role, team work, and even own skills or lack thereof.

I hope in 3.0 raids are longer than 4 bosses per 6 months and have little to no "story" to be kept as difficult content for those that actually *want* difficult content. Implement story mode for those that just want to see what's there (also different bosses or just tank and spank so no one in progressive guilds can use it as practice mode).

Also, I'm frankly tired of how "casual", "hardcore", and "elite" get thrown around (not directed at you Tiggy). Even during progression for SCoB, my group would typically only go a couple hours per night three times a week. I know plenty of people that spend more time than that a given night watching TV or things on Youtube and Netflix.

Really, I'm not against people wanting to experience raids. I just don't SE to over simplify it with mechanic changes, new ilevel, and echo. Likely SE won't have a choice but to go that route. Hopefully future raids can avoid this fate by having little to no story.....after all, everyone eventually gets to the same item level as the "elites".

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Originally Posted by odintius

If we learn anything from savage that Yoshi-P wanted to provide a harder challenge is not many people seem willing to do it without rewards also in place so much for I do it for the challege part.

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Eh, I don't know if you can say that. A bigger problem is that it shares the same lockout with normal coil. This can mess with an individual's ability to challenge savage coil because your normal coil group may not all want to do savage coil, and it may be harder to schedule savage coil attempts around your group's normal coil clears.

They should simply divide coil in ilv. This way ppl can choose an easier coil vs the more challenging and better rewarding one.

And at the same time people who don't care much about doing it the hard way can see the story behind coil without waiting a long time to find a party that knows what they're doing.

Hell I haven't even tried to find one since ppl are too damn picky about having VC.

Pff!

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

It kind of shows who the vocal minority are to me when the forums are littered with people whining about difficulty but when a fan gathering is held the true feelings are much more obvious.

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I wonder how many percent of people can pass coil easily who are the vocal minority...
weird... I do not see coil2 gears everywhere tho...

I think, just my opinion, that they could raise the visibility of certain mechanics as a form of the "nerf". For example show along the floor the pathing of T5 divebombs and an aggro arrow for the dreadknights. Maybe a small radial pulse for twisters?

Admittedly i know little of SCoB and if that would work there, but eh. Just tossing that out there. Personally I would rather do the fight at a decent strength and either clear it through overgear or overlevels. Oh and moving. I want to move and dodge too. But I can empathize with other players and how they progress.

I seen so many people complain they don't want one hit kills and they claim it doesn't make the fights hard because its scripted. I check peoples profiles whenever they say coil isn't hard its scripted ect and they never had any coil achievements or gear. If its so "easy because its scripted", then why don't they do it?

Some how a tank and spank fight is the pinnacle of challenge.

They want tank and spank when you mess up don't die or wipe the raid but take a lot of damage or get a debuff that can be healed through. Basically what a lot of casual players want is a glorified CT. The ironic thing however is they complain about how CT is too easy, despite wanting the whole game to be basically tank and spank where mistakes mean you just heal a lot of damage up.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I seen so many people complain they don't want one hit kills and they claim it doesn't make the fights hard because its scripted. I check peoples profiles whenever they say coil isn't hard its scripted ect and they never had any coil achievements or gear. If its so "easy because its scripted", then why don't they do it?

Some how a tank and spank fight is the pinnacle of challenge.

They want tank and spank when you mess up don't die or wipe the raid but take a lot of damage or get a debuff that can be healed through. Basically what a lot of casual players want is a glorified CT. The ironic thing however is they complain about how CT is too easy, despite wanting the whole game to be basically tank and spank where mistakes mean you just heal a lot of damage up.

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Tank and spank fights like T8, some players still deal shit DPS.

/just saying.

Just a minor point in case, here...

Was watching an FC mate's stream of T9, as she was running with a pick up group.
There was a DRG in the group with low damage output, dying to Dynamo, getting exploded on constantly, getting meteors dropped on her head, etc.

And the DRG blamed the group for not carrying her.

Then, we thought back to launch. This same DRG was one of the vocal ones about nerfing T5. Never got her clear until, after months of complaints, she was carried by some friends of ours.
No sense of accomplishment. No struggle. Just easy mode.
And here she is in T9, expecting - even demanding from team members that they make up for her low damage output (Which was 1/3 of our WAR's).

These nerfs allow this type of player through to T10.
And the cycle will continue.

But alas, it's already been decided. Hopefully this outcry will reach some receptive ears at Mr. G's team, and have some type of productive sway in regards to preserving challenge in this game.

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Originally Posted by Tsuwu

Hopefully this outcry will reach some receptive ears at Mr. G's team, and have some type of productive sway in regards to preserving challenge in this game.

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I believe even Mr G. can't fix stupidity as shown on tat loldrg u mentioned

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Originally Posted by Empressia

I believe even Mr G. can't fix stupidity as shown on tat loldrg u mentioned

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Can't fix stupid.
But he can make it impossible for stupid to get through T10 without getting better at this game.

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Originally Posted by Tsuwu

stuff

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What? This doesn't have anything to do with coil nerfs....like at all. As soon as the group noticed that not only did this DRG have absolutely no idea what (s)he were doing, but was actually blaming the rest of the group for their poor performance, they should've kicked them immediately. The only thing allowing people like this into the further turns are the people who for some reason, won't kick them for being a douche.

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Originally Posted by Silverharp

What? This doesn't have anything to do with coil nerfs....like at all. As soon as the group noticed that not only did this DRG have absolutely no idea what (s)he were doing, but was actually blaming the rest of the group for their poor performance, they should've kicked them immediately.

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It doesn't directly deal with nerfs, no.
The connection lies in that she was only able to clear T5 after the 20% echo and other buffs. However, by her clearing Nerfed Coil, she expected the same in T9.
She will likely expect the same in T13.

She might just be an isolated case, but that seems naïve to me.

Also, the group kept trying their best to get somewhere with her in the group as a kindness, but when she starting insulting others in TS, 5/8 just dropped.

I for one don't mind nerfing of old content I just don't like people selling runs. But I would like to clear it while its still hard.SO ON THAT NOTE.....has any one ever bothered to ASK SE to let us turn the nurf mod off in pre made party's....just a thought

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Originally Posted by Tsuwu

It doesn't directly deal with nerfs, no.

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I feel this is more on the community policing side.

Overall, if someone isn't learning from mistakes, accepting polite constructive criticism, or working with their other party members, they shouldn't be carried. Your friends that carried them through T5, got that DRG past that gate.

I don't think there is much the Dev Team can do. They let players pay for clears and groups sell them. Many players carry friends, FC members, or mutual as well. Ppl are gonna find ways through that gate for the reward.

I spent Oct and Nov of 2013 helping various skill lvls of my FC to learn Titan HM as these dodge mechanics weren't going away and it was the perfect roadblock to teach ppl and get a proper mindset instead of a privileged one.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Snip

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A whole lot of nothing in that post except OMG THEY DON'T AGREE WITH ME LET ME JUST CALL THEM A SLEW OF NAMES.

No one is saying you shouldn't be able to get into coil at all. They are saying coil shouldn't be changed. You have the same chance as everyone else in this game. And screw off with this "elites" BS. The only "elites" in FFXIV are those who do world firsts, BlueGartr and the like. Coil is one of the most accessible raids in the MMOs I have played (try vanilla WoW, where you needed a 40 man group, and had to progress through each raid first), and the fact people STILL complain about it boggles my mind.

If the problem is you can't find people to clear T5, then how will a nerf solve that? Or do you want T5 to be soloable now? You're telling me that your FC or LSes you are in won't help get a group together?

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Originally Posted by Magis

A whole lot of nothing in that post except OMG THEY DON'T AGREE WITH ME LET ME JUST CALL THEM A SLEW OF NAMES.

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I was looking for words, thx you found them.


I really want to Quote myself from another Post, as this is how i feel about it

This my friend, i want to explain (from my PoV)

It's because of the time and effort (and of course emotions) I put into beating those Turns... it is not like a static goes in there, try 4-5 times and cake is eaten.
We managed to Down T9 last week for the first time, after weeks of frustrating wipes, over and over. Not to mention the Ton's of Gil burned away for Buffood and Repairs.
Also on a personal level, how many times your significant other was disappointed, because you sat staring at a screen until 3 o'clock instead of doing something with him/her...
You really sacrifice a lot for this.


So imagine you are a Sports Athlete, you train years of years, and achieve to set the World Record in Pole Vaulting. Now you retire and the year after your record get's vaporised because they now allow rocket-driven shoes ;-)

Of course, beating Coil it is a virtual achievment - not to be compared with professional Sports. But still, we feel betrayed by the fact that what we achieved now get's literally handed out on the silver plate, just because some do not have the endurance to do it the way it was designed for.

but as argues are in the Internet, people with that mindset will click like, those who havent will result in ... jeah, exactly the above.
never a mind was changed on an internet board, no matter how good your arguments are...

that last line should be my new signature ^^

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

How does someone completing content after it's been toned-down affect your having completed it at its hardest.. at all?

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I do believe I've thoroughly explained that above. If you cared to read it.

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If you read most of my threads you would see I personally have no issue with the way SE has chosen to slowly nerf the old content at all. A minor tweak to ADS, echo, and better gear were plenty in my opinion as they kept many of the mechanics in place. I have a problem who want it to be even easier than that so that anyone and their dog can face roll it. If new players don't have a progression system that slowly ramps up in difficulty we will see a situation where average game skill decreases unless you are someone actually tackling the harder content. The only content would be super easy or super hard. There will be no middle ground between easy and hard, and that will discourage people further and propagate an even more extreme skill gap than we already see today.

You won't hurt my ego by making the fights easier, but you may very well hurt the game and I do care about that.

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It's about game balance and player expectations. Tsuwu's story above is a great example of what happens when people get carried through the content that was supposed to be a stepping stone. They get to tougher content, can't handle it, and then the cycle continues. You ask the raiders to "Try to step outside yourself and read some of the remarks here" but I ask of you to do the same thing. Stop thinking about the lowest common denominator for 1 second and actually consider the side effects on the community and this game. My argument never came from a place of personal achievement, ego, or elitism. Your broad strokes and generalizations just attempt to lump us all together simply because we raid and you try to brush us off as out of touch and self centered. Like we all sell runs or something. (AN ACT ME AND MY FC HAVE NEVER DONE THANK YOU VERY MUCH) I dislike your generalizations. I dislike how you lump us all together the bad and the good.

Why is it so impossible for people to make an argument without sweeping generalizations and insults? For the court Exhibit D. This many pages deep and the point still stands.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Many people from both sides argue their points very nicely and in a friendly way, but the ones that loose their temper and jump to insults the quickest tend to be from the non raiding camp. That's just my personal observation anyway.

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Thanks for once again showing that the people with the shortest fuse tend to be the non-raiders.