Counter to Elitism

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Perfect example CoP in 11, the pinnacle of perfection, Hard content that you couldnt just breeze through you know like walking through The shrouded maw but instead of not crammed full of trees that would one shot you just a bunch of tough mobs that you had to remain alert about in the Promiviyons. Tough bosses fights that yes required some items but very decent strategies to fight most of them that you could do with any jobs. But yes there was elitism there with people only wanting to do it the cookie cutting way.

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What you describe is precisely NOT "time centered". Of course it takes time to do all the CoP missions, but it's because it's "hard content". You had to know how to play to go through Promyvions, Sacrarium, etc...
When you beat the last mission, you're sure to gain one ring. When you beat Apocalypse Nigh, you're sure to gain one earring, so we're talking about 100% reward to a difficult fight. That's totally "skill based reward".

In XIV, beating Ifrit or winning an hamlet defense were not THAT hard. But most of the times, you gained absolutely nothing from it.

Like I said in my first post on this thread, people think "Elite = Hardcore". That's wrong. When the OP talks about elitism, he clearly say "Invite casual players".
There's nothing to prevent differences between "good" players and "bad" players, and that's normal.
But "time centered rewards" favors Hardcore player upon casual players, no matter how good or bad they are.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

The only people that whines about class stackings are mostly the one that are terrible at the class they played so people never let them go, face the fact, you are terrible and SE is not going fix it.

Most endgame LS has zero issue trying out different setup and wins, accomplishing things and having fun at the same time, yes the issue isn't with the elitist, it's with this terrible players that are hiding behind casual cover.

It's a common known fact, most melee DPSer especially have zero freaking knowledge about enemy moves, timing their WS and get the way out of shit like Scorpion Sting, where to run when Chimera does certain breathe, etc etc.

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Is this a joke ? Because as actually a good melee who know his job well, every time i want to be mnk the usual answer in my static is "if we can win more easely with all blm, why we should make things harder ?"
Which is a good answer because almost all people in my static are blm as main :|| fuck them all

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

The drops in dungeons like that are luck items. Even if you run the dungeon, you're not guaranteed to get what you want. And really, why should you be? True, you did difficult content.

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Indeed you're not guaranteed to get exactly what you want. But getting Dark Matter nine times out of ten after beating the crap out of a Primal is maybe too far in the wrong direction.
You see, if dungeons and primals always dropped one good item for the party, I'd think that would be fair. You had to win the loot to get your item, but in a static PT, you know you'd get a reward at least for the 8th run.

I don't understand how "winning over a dice roll" is "satysfying". Cause basically it's how the drops work.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

exactly like the Rajas ring, bullshit hard to get, but so worth it even at 99 its still the best ring, and you can use it at 30 it was so worth the mind blowing hardness of CoP.

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It's actually totally different from the Rajas ring. Rajas/Tamas/Sattva were GUARANTEED if you finish CoP. Does that make them less deserved or less satysfying ?
When you saw someone with one of theses rings, you probably tought "Wow, this guy finished CoP, good job". When you saw someone with a HDL gear, you think "Wow...lucky guy"

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Is this a joke ? Because as actually a good melee who know his job well, every time i want to be mnk the usual answer in my static is "if we can win more easely with all blm, why we should make things harder ?"
Which is a good answer because almost all people in my static are blm as main :|| fuck them all

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That is the problem with your group's mentality then. I was a MNK main as well and has pretty much MNK every single content succesfully. It's a public stigma that most people treat melee DPS like a garbage because of they expect to mash buttons and wins. Everyone can have good gear, what is your definition of good MNK? does everyone knows how to save the party in the verge of death? does most melee come prepared with different kind of meds? do they carry sets like evasion sets (you can literally gets 50% evasion rate on most NMs along with shitton of survival tool playing PUG)?

For sometimes we had MNK tanking chimera because of the crazy hate they can gain in that particular fight, makes pretty much all BLM able to go all out. How many MNK out there knows how to tank and evade breathes properly? you can probably count them by fingers.

I suppose it comes down to us to convince people how we'll contribute to a fight, you don't just ask if you can come as xxxx then expect them to bend the norm without explanation why is it better than current cookie cutter strategy, and this is probably the issue with people who whines, not many goes in deep research and think of a strategy and expect people to waste their time to try something you are not so sure yourself will succeed.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

That is the problem with your group's mentality then. I was a MNK main as well and has pretty much MNK every single content succesfully. It's a public stigma that most people treat melee DPS like a garbage because of they expect to mash buttons and wins. Everyone can have good gear, what is your definition of good MNK? does everyone knows how to save the party in the verge of death? does most melee come prepared with different kind of meds? do they carry sets like evasion sets (you can literally gets 50% evasion rate on most NMs along with shitton of survival tool playing PUG)?

For sometimes we had MNK tanking chimera because of the crazy hate they can gain in that particular fight, makes pretty much all BLM able to go all out. How many MNK out there knows how to tank and evade breathes properly? you can probably count them by fingers.

I suppose it comes down to us to convince people how we'll contribute to a fight, you don't just ask if you can come as xxxx then expect them to bend the norm without explanation why is it better than current cookie cutter strategy, and this is probably the issue with people who whines, not many goes in deep research and think of a strategy and expect people to waste their time to try something you are not so sure yourself will succeed.

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My definition of good mnk is a mnk who know well its job.
Yes, i use food, i use str potions (or other meds) i use raise tonics, i have an evasion gear, i have some situational gear, i know how to avoid shit i can avoid. Still, i can't do what i want in most fights because it's more easy. Excuse me if i hate class stacking

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Indeed you're not guaranteed to get exactly what you want. But getting Dark Matter nine times out of ten after beating the crap out of a Primal is maybe too far in the wrong direction.
You see, if dungeons and primals always dropped one good item for the party, I'd think that would be fair. You had to win the loot to get your item, but in a static PT, you know you'd get a reward at least for the 8th run.

I don't understand how "winning over a dice roll" is "satysfying". Cause basically it's how the drops work.

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It's "satisfying" because of the feelings of happiness that come after you win a roll and gain a very awesome drop. I mean, that's usually why it's satisfying, lol. If you wind up doing a dungeon a few times and not getting the item you want, then that means your luck hasn't come in yet. Maybe you'll get it next time. Maybe the time after that. Who knows? The element of skill and luck when fighting in a dungeon for an epic drop make getting the drop all the more gratifying and rewarding. I'm sorry, I just don't think that just because you do content you should automatically be entitled to the epic reward for said content. I also believe that the luck factor makes the reward far more special than the "farm the dungeon for tokens to get the reward" factor.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

It's "satisfying" because of the feelings of happiness that come after you win a roll and gain a very awesome drop. I mean, that's usually why it's satisfying, lol. If you wind up doing a dungeon a few times and not getting the item you want, then that means your luck hasn't come in yet. Maybe you'll get it next time. Maybe the time after that. Who knows? The element of skill and luck when fighting in a dungeon for an epic drop make getting the drop all the more gratifying and rewarding. I'm sorry, I just don't think that just because you do content you should automatically be entitled to the epic reward for said content. I also believe that the luck factor makes the reward far more special than the "farm the dungeon for tokens to get the reward" factor.

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The odds were so bad that many went 1.0 with never getting the drop they wanted. I don't mind luck being a part of it but that was bad. I wonder how many corselets were even on the server

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Make fights that every job is viable with (impossible)

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The Garuda fight probably did the best job of trying this (post BLM zerg nerf obviously). It's perfectly viable to do the fight with 1 of each class, plus probably another BRD for plumes as the 8th.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

It's "satisfying" because of the feelings of happiness that come after you win a roll and gain a very awesome drop. I mean, that's usually why it's satisfying, lol. If you wind up doing a dungeon a few times and not getting the item you want, then that means your luck hasn't come in yet. Maybe you'll get it next time. Maybe the time after that. Who knows? The element of skill and luck when fighting in a dungeon for an epic drop make getting the drop all the more gratifying and rewarding. I'm sorry, I just don't think that just because you do content you should automatically be entitled to the epic reward for said content. I also believe that the luck factor makes the reward far more special than the "farm the dungeon for tokens to get the reward" factor.

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I think the issue Reynhart is talking about wouldn't go away even if you had a set 20 times you had to redo the instance to get your loot. Why not just have something (at most) 20 times as long or (at most) 20 times as hard, as long as it could still be done in reasonable particulate spans of time? Simple answer: because it's lazier design. You put in a 20th of the work that you require of players for their drops. A reasonable strategy, but a dull one.

To be honest, I could go either way between preferring to be told straight-up to run something 20 times, or having a 5% chance of getting my item each run. Luck, and drops, have a way of being more distributed based on the wants of the (consistent and/or sympathetic) party, allowing the patient ones to stay in the pool for a while longer at aid to the less patient or further behind. That said, for those without such understanding team members and perpetual bad luck, it can really suck.

Actually, on the whole I slightly prefer RNG as it applies to dungeon drops, but that's still only as the lesser between two evils. I'm in no way condoning the design as anything more than cost-effective, and adding familiarity and longevity (for their time) to content locations (whether we like it or not...).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What you describe is precisely NOT "time centered". Of course it takes time to do all the CoP missions, but it's because it's "hard content". You had to know how to play to go through Promyvions, Sacrarium, etc...
When you beat the last mission, you're sure to gain one ring. When you beat Apocalypse Nigh, you're sure to gain one earring, so we're talking about 100% reward to a difficult fight. That's totally "skill based reward".

In XIV, beating Ifrit or winning an hamlet defense were not THAT hard. But most of the times, you gained absolutely nothing from it.

Like I said in my first post on this thread, people think "Elite = Hardcore". That's wrong. When the OP talks about elitism, he clearly say "Invite casual players".
There's nothing to prevent differences between "good" players and "bad" players, and that's normal.
But "time centered rewards" favors Hardcore player upon casual players, no matter how good or bad they are.

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It was time centered becuase you couldn't beat CoP with only a week of effort, and CoP didnt only offer a Ring, it offered a Swift belt and Soboro and other Items that were extremely useful and were hard to get that you couldnt get one first tries escepially if you had whole groups who wanted the item and your turn finally come to pop the item and it doesnt drop your lucky by the time the whole group goes if they actually stayed to help you.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

The Garuda fight probably did the best job of trying this (post BLM zerg nerf obviously). It's perfectly viable to do the fight with 1 of each class, plus probably another BRD for plumes as the 8th.

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Yes but Garuda is a the factor here also im happy that when my shell beat garuda it wasnt the way all the elitst said it was the only way to be done. but like my brother always uses what happens when they add Titan and Ramuh Blm is screwed if they dont improve the fire and ice lines.