SCH needs some nerfs

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

Stop complaining that SCHs and ASTs are OP or broken because they aren't. They're only OP or broken when you compare it to WHM which is in the gutter right now and that's SE fault. Start complaining to them to actually fix your bad job. Tell them to increase your pDPS, tell them to make Planery last 30 or more seconds, tell them to fix lilys so they proc off regens/benison and not single target heals that you DON'T USE or just scrap lily's and make a new mechanic, tell them to fix Asylum because it's archaic design makes it a very very worse Collective Unconcious. Having to stand in one spot for a regen is such a bad design. Tell them to increase the healing done with Assize. But don't go whining other jobs are broken because your job is broken fundamentally.

I also see you're not even a WHM or healer main so I don't know why you're here when it's very obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

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Yeah, Scholar and Astro are considered "OP" compared to White Mage. It's better to improve White Mage at this point because of it's controversial skill set that was given in Stormblood. No one will disagree that White Mage could use some rethinking of it's job skill gauge and lilies going forward. Asylum was good in HW because it gave the job a bubble regeneration when the other two jobs have one and it was obvious were trying to find ways to make the WHM/AST combo potent, it just took almost two raid tiers to figure that out to the point they threw everything they could to Noct Astro to make it more than just viable. Either cut down the Asylum cooldown and/or make it more powerful to want to define raiding strategy around, it's too weak in it's current form with all the movement required in Omega.

Being at the end of the expansion, and possibly another healer coming into the mix, one can only hope going forward they'll re-define The Balance (pun intended)

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

There's nothing new on official forums about people not even knowing what they're talking about but crying for absurd nerf/rebalance without understanding what they're blaming, especially about healers.

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It's typical, many of us have been here for years, and there is usually an agenda. What makes the OF good is you have people who play the jobs casually, to end-game raiding, even all the way to optimization.

I played nerfed SCH at the start of 4.0. I could not get past the fact that so many casual healers were never going to play SCH again. That was back when WHM and AST were considered meta healers. SCH's healing per second was so low and their MP economy was so small, and the pet AI was sluggish and nonsensical as usual. The problem with nerfing so hard is that players will drop the job and never play it again.

You almost never need WHM's healing potential in a coordinated group with how the damage patterns are designed in this game. The only fight this expansion where WHM's HPS was lucrative is UCoB for progression, although AST is fine in the right group. If they were to give WHM a 2-minute CD Haste buff for the entire party, it would put WHM in a better position even if only psychologically.

There's a difference between nerfing and breaking them over your knee, though. Using 4.0 SCH as an example of how it would go isn't really accurate as there are many other ways of changing them.

To be clear, I'm not saying nerfs are the only way to fix the balance issues, and buffs are always preferred, but the problem is a fundamental one with the kits.

We're far enough into the expansion where we may as well just wait for 5.0 and roll the dice again. I'm talking about it in a relative scale in the future tense. Such as when 5.0 rolls around make the native fairy healing slightly weaker to encourage an extra GCD being spent on healing here or there. Do it at a time when the class is being reworked anyway with the addition of new skills and people might not even notice.

Same for Dragoons and the like. Would taking away the pierce debuff be a nerf? Would lowering Trick Attack? Probably, but it would weaken their stranglehold on party slots a bit and if it's between expansions it won't even matter.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

A WHM at 99% has optimized as much as it is possible to without literally changing jobs.

This is like saying to optimize on SAM just means playing MNK.

The lols continue...

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Do you know how statistics work? 99% does not mean optimized dps. If I take every grey percentile player and isolate them there will be 99%s within that group; does this mean they're optimized? No. WHMs are missing the subset of players that parse run and speed run in their logs within fflogs because people don't speed-run on whm, and they don't parse-run on whm, because people that do these runs don't take dead weight classes with them. This means whm numbers get pushed down because the upper percentiles of whms are not in the proper setting to parse well. Your inept in proper play spills over to your inept of understanding basic concepts.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

We WHM's still aren't as bad as BLM, SAM, MNK, RDM, MCH, or DRK! *Coughs loudly*

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I'm sorry to say this, but WHM is in a much worse spot than the jobs you mentioned. Replacing a pld with a drk or meta dps with a non-meta dps results in 100-200 rdps difference right now. Replacing a WHM with an AST can result in a 1k rdps difference.

(if you were being sarcastic, I didn't get it)

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Do you know how statistics work? 99% does not mean optimized dps. If I take every grey percentile player and isolate them there will be 99%s within that group; does this mean they're optimized? No. WHMs are missing the subset of players that parse run and speed run in their logs within fflogs because people don't speed-run on whm, and they don't parse-run on whm, because people that do these runs don't take dead weight classes with them. This means whm numbers get pushed down because the upper percentiles of whms are not in the proper setting to parse well. Your inept in proper play spills over to your inept of understanding basic concepts.

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TIL: People don't optimize on off-meta jobs.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Do you know how statistics work? 99% does not mean optimized dps. If I take every grey percentile player and isolate them there will be 99%s within that group; does this mean they're optimized? No. WHMs are missing the subset of players that parse run and speed run in their logs within fflogs because people don't speed-run on whm, and they don't parse-run on whm, because people that do these runs don't take dead weight classes with them. This means whm numbers get pushed down because the upper percentiles of whms are not in the proper setting to parse well. Your inept in proper play spills over to your inept of understanding basic concepts.

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Were I comfortable linking logs I would happily do so to show you how wrong you are and how baseless your assumptions are. Since I can't (and neither can you without being reported into the ground) this isn't an argument that can even happen here.

The best I can do is tell you to actually look before assuming. There are plenty of parse runs for WHM's in this game. They don't hit the numbers a SCH or AST can because WHM doesn't have an answer to Indom or ES so in order to contribute any healing at all it's losing GCDs where as the other two healers arent.

It's like people are incapable of logic when their main is being spoken about.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I'm sorry to say this, but WHM is in a much worse spot than the jobs you mentioned. Replacing a pld with a drk or meta dps with a non-meta dps results in 100-200 rdps difference right now. Replacing a WHM with an AST can result in a 1k rdps difference.

(if you were being sarcastic, I didn't get it)

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I was being sarcastic and satirical. The number of WHMs who have logs recorded on FFLogs is a fair margin higher (usually at least 10K+ recorded) than those aforementioned job but WHM's position in the healer role is in a much more precarious than most of those jobs except for potentially MCH (correct me if I'm wrong though, I just hear a lot of bad things about MCH down the grapevine but I've never actually looked in great detail personally)

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Were I comfortable linking logs I would happily do so to show you how wrong you are and how baseless your assumptions are. Since I can't (and neither can you without being reported into the ground) this isn't an argument that can even happen here.

The best I can do is tell you to actually look before assuming. There are plenty of parse runs for WHM's in this game. They don't hit the numbers a SCH or AST can because WHM doesn't have an answer to Indom or ES so in order to contribute any healing at all it's losing GCDs where as the other two healers arent.

It's like people are incapable of logic when their main is being spoken about.

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Aight I'll bite, explain to me why would anyone take a job that takes away raid dps in a parse run or speed run. Then explain to me how this number could ever be the equivalent to a meta comp in terms of pushing parses. Literally just spent 10 seconds on fflogs and found everything to the contrary. Having dead job mechanics and useless traits tends to make a class undesirable. Having it designed against the meta is pretty bad too. As for my main? My main is what's meta because I care about the people I'm running with and their performance. I'm also a halfway decent healer that can see that whm is a flaming pile of shiz that needs a few buffs, contrary to someone who doesn't know how to read statistics and less so knows how to play healer at an optimal level; insteads parrots things they pretend they think they know about a subject they pretend they think they know. You've also outright dismissed many good arguments in the thread by saying "salty schs stay salty", which speaks to whatever biases you have.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Aight I'll bite, explain to me why would anyone take a job that takes away raid dps in a parse run or speed run. Then explain to me how this number could ever be the equivalent to a meta comp in terms of pushing parses. Literally just spent 10 seconds on fflogs and found everything to the contrary. Having dead job mechanics and useless traits tends to make a class undesirable. Having it designed against the meta is pretty bad too. As for my main? My main is what's meta because I care about the people I'm running with and their performance. I'm also a halfway decent healer that can see that whm is a flaming pile of shiz that needs a few buffs, contrary to someone who doesn't know how to read statistics and less so knows how to play healer at an optimal level; insteads parrots things they pretend they think they know about a subject they pretend they think they know. You've also outright dismissed many good arguments in the thread by saying "salty schs stay salty", which speaks to whatever biases you have.

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I have no bias against SCH in general just the ones who can't see that their class is overtaking the other healers by a ridiculous amount.

If you can't find the parse runs for WHM on fflogs maybe you should take a class or something I dunno, it isn't hard to do. I'm sorry you're having so much trouble though. It seems like an easy enough thing to me :shrug:

Stay in the meta. That's cool. You can also keep proving me right with this extreme defensiveness. As I said neither of us can link logs so this isn't something that can be settled here. If you care so much about making your point my discord is in my signature, if not stop making claims you can't provide evidence for.