Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Let’s be honest here. When I saw the job trailer what got me hyped the most was the fukking dash that drk and gnb got. The rest was sleeper. It’s still gonna be 123 until 1 and 2 minutes and you don’t even have to safe 50 blood gauge for shadow, now it’s a button you press on cooldown without any consequences, can’t wait for tbn to do the same. At least gnb has continuation combo every 30 seconds.

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for me it was the massive great sword slash with the one wing (esteem having the one on the other side)
was kino

To me, visually and aesthetically speaking, it feels like we are getting less of the "Dark Knight" fantasy and more of an "Edgy swordsman"
The weapon combo attack under delirium were a bit nice, no negative reception from my side.
The dash instead of plunge felt weird, with the spell effects looked more like it belonged to a battle mage or something alike, having a black mist or anything similar when you dash would have made better impact for me from a class fantasy/lore perspective.
And the one winged angel/persona 5 arsene/ devil trigger felt odd, again with the idea of the class fantasy (also having a "third" flood of shadow felt redundant)
(Also sorry in advance for the mistakes in english i may make, and hoping i don't bring too much negativity to the dialog/discussion)

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

They had to make Dark Knight catch up to Warrior in how brainless it is after all.
Waiting for 8.0 where Delirium just gives you 4 free uses of Edge of Shadow so you all you ever need to think about is pressing that knock-off Inner Release button to get all your damage for free...you know, like Warrior.

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But hey, now there are 2 tanks you can teach a hamster to play instead of 1.
Queue times will be so much faster with all these hamsters picking up tank.

I really don't understand why DRK has so many lasers beam, I mean, DRK should be a knight not a mage. It's very strange to me.

I really miss the old dark arts, the idea of sacrificing part of your MP to upgrade some buttons was incredible, it made sense with the lore of the job.

Dark Knight has always been interconnected with the concept of a magic using knight. The original in FF3 was literally called "Magic Swordsman".

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Dark Knight has always been interconnected with the concept of a magic using knight. The original in FF3 was literally called "Magic Swordsman".

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A concept that has been completely lost over the years. Sure you still "cast" magic, but where is that interconnectivity? It's just an amalgamation of fire-and-forget cooldowns with no connection to each other.
But that's really the case for tanks in general.

When "press this button for big numbers, X seconds cooldown" and "congratulations, you remembered to press this cooldown, your reward for rubbing two braincells together are these skills that do big numbers for free" became the devs idea of peak design we should've known they completely lost the plot.

And the worst part, as soon as the trailer with new flashy effects comes out all the streamers and content creators, even those that brought up the exact same complaints we have, make their best impression of a pogchamp face and gush all over the additions that are all flash and zero substance.

We were speaking more thematically than the gameplay of it.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

They had to make Dark Knight catch up to Warrior in how brainless it is after all.
Waiting for 8.0 where Delirium just gives you 4 free uses of Edge of Shadow so you all you ever need to think about is pressing that knock-off Inner Release button to get all your damage for free...you know, like Warrior.

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It's honestly expected but I am still a little surprised was it really worth taking off???

What made "gauges" at least a little bit interesting was multiple spenders for different reasons, I actually felt like wars SHB gauge was fine with how Upheaval worked, also having it tied to gap closer made it so war had to consider there gauge a tiny bit more.

I just dont know why they're going into the direction of gauge = 1 spender. It seems silly.

I will admit to being new blood when it comes to DRK, I mained it while going through MSQ back in ShB and got into savage and ultimate with it throughout EW. All things considered I was pretty happy with EW DRK. It definitely could another plate or two to spin, but MP management/holding dark arts for 2mins, blood management for fights with downtime, and the super busy burst window were all nice things to have.

Now we're losing the sole reason blood management exists, and losing a significant number of weaves under burst. What is the plan here? Who exactly is this job supposed to appeal to now?

The more I learn about how DRK worked before ShB, the more I regret not discovering this game earlier.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

It's honestly expected but I am still a little surprised was it really worth taking off???

What made "gauges" at least a little bit interesting was multiple spenders for different reasons, I actually felt like wars SHB gauge was fine with how Upheaval worked, also having it tied to gap closer made it so war had to consider there gauge a tiny bit more.

I just dont know why they're going into the direction of gauge = 1 spender. It seems silly.

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I think Stormblood did a better job with WAR's gauge because Onslaught wasn't just a gap closer with damage, it had roughly the same potency per gauge as Fell Cleave which made it a real consideration in fights. Do I spend this gauge on Fell Cleave or do I spend it on a bunch of Onslaughts instead to save a GCD and maybe end my combo on Path/Eye before downtime?

But in general yes, having multiple abilities that tap into your gauge simply made more sense, it made you at least think about when to spend gauge on your main spender (in this case Fell Cleave) because you might not have enough when your smaller spenders come back up.

Now they might as well remove the gauge and just give you charges on a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

The more I learn about how DRK worked before ShB, the more I regret not discovering this game earlier.

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I'm actually happy for the people who never knew how jobs played before ShB, they live in blissful ignorance of what we had and probably get more enjoyment out of the current game.

I wish I couldn't see the absolutely awful direction that XIV's gameplay has been heading in for two expansions now.

It's going in the same direction that made me quit WoW in Legion after 12 years, just harder and faster than WoW ever did.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'm actually happy for the people who never knew how jobs played before ShB, they live in blissful ignorance of what we had and probably get more enjoyment out of the current game.

I wish I couldn't see the absolutely awful direction that XIV's gameplay has been heading in for two expansions now.

It's going in the same direction that made me quit WoW in Legion after 12 years, just harder and faster than WoW ever did.

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I hate the fact that i have to agree so much with this
Sometime i wish i could completely forget the older iterations of Dark Knight

One random thing that i often recall was , for me at least, the fact that dungeons at the time were enjoyable when playing this class, especially in stormblood
And while i often prefered the heavensward version (maybe it was nostalgia goggles, or not, who knows), i really enjoyed going in dungeon (i know, dungeons are not raids or hard content so it doesn't count, sorry in advance) in stormblood with how the dark knight abilities and the mana/blood gauge interacted so well together.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'm actually happy for the people who never knew how jobs played before ShB, they live in blissful ignorance of what we had and probably get more enjoyment out of the current game.

I wish I couldn't see the absolutely awful direction that XIV's gameplay has been heading in for two expansions now.

It's going in the same direction that made me quit WoW in Legion after 12 years, just harder and faster than WoW ever did.

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Originally Posted by Kaixern

I hate the fact that i have to agree so much with this
Sometime i wish i could completely forget the older iterations of Dark Knight

One random thing that i often recall was , for me at least, the fact that dungeons at the time were enjoyable when playing this class, especially in stormblood
And while i often prefered the heavensward version (maybe it was nostalgia goggles, or not, who knows), i really enjoyed going in dungeon (i know, dungeons are not raids or hard content so it doesn't count, sorry in advance) in stormblood with how the dark knight abilities and the mana/blood gauge interacted so well together.

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This is something I hear all the time from old DRK mains, and it reminds me of a complaint that I often hear in regards to job changes: It really doesn't feel like these decisions are being made by designers who are dedicated players of the job in question. Like, I've never met a StB DRK main who didn't LOVE Dark Arts, but I hear the reason they removed it was because it felt "spammy"? But I got the feeling that was kind of the point?

I feel the same way about what we saw in the trailer. They're making all these changes to reduce how busy the burst is- isn't that what half the fun of the job is currently? "DRK is too busy" is the kind of complaint I could only imagine someone who is new to the job making. Surely any avid DRK main on the dev team would agree. So who's in charge of these decisions?

I think it depends on what iterations you've played. In Heavensward, DRK was generally viewed as fast paced (job APM was on par with NIN) and challenging (widely viewed as the most difficult tank, and one of the more challenging jobs in general). During the transition into Stormblood, the newly introduced role action system resulted in the DRK losing a lot of actions that it had previously. The job was deliberately set at a disadvantage in both DPS (DRK was behind by about 500 dps on some fights) and utility (no job-specific raidwide mitigation at a time where Veil and Shake gave significant bonuses to LB generation) from the onset in order to move from a predominantly DRK/WAR meta to a PLD/WAR meta. And the developers responded to complaints about MP management and job difficulty that had come up during Heavensward by removing the drain from Darkside. This in turn had a knock-on effect to Dark Arts, leading to DA being weaved on most GCDs. Interestingly, the general perspectives at the time were that Stormblood was a simplified version of Heavensward DRK, with less buttons, less damage, less burst, and less utility. It was simultaneously viewed as low skill and ineffective.

It's kind of hilarious, because this entire forum was up in arms against the changes made to DRK during the transition into Stormblood. Someone who was just starting the game during Stormblood and who wasn't aware of the raid related disadvantages would probably look back fondly on it, however. In a few years I suppose we'll see mention of the 'good old days' of Shadowbringers.

Well I mean if you look at it through that Lense Dark Knight was the best tank of Endwalker, being the go to pick for 2 of the 3 tiers, completely fine in the 3rd tier, and the best tank in both ultis.
And I'll be honest I think a lot of the issues people cite about dark knight aren't even issues with the job directly, but rather the game as a whole.

It's much more than just raid effectiveness. It's the combination of being able to invest effort into a job aesthetic that you enjoy, have a clear skill/performance differential that rewards time investment, and a sense of value for playing well.

In Heavensward, DRK was never most dominant pick (that goes to WAR, which was mandatory in every comp). If you wanted to play DRK, you did need to know how to play PLD as well for certain fights. But there was a clear skill differential, it was viewed as not just the most challenging tank but one of the most challenging jobs overall, and you were valued for being able to play it well. I don't think that you could have asked for anything more.

DRK should keep Plunge, but treat it like an actual attack like it's a DRG jump attack.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

DRK should keep Plunge, but treat it like an actual attack like it's a DRG jump attack.

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That be an elegant solution for people who miss the animation, especially if it was just a 30s GCD that was meant to be used for damage in a burst window.
But I'm going to be honest, I want a no damage gap closer as a whole and I like this change.

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

Like, I've never met a StB DRK main who didn't LOVE Dark Arts, but I hear the reason they removed it was because it felt "spammy"? But I got the feeling that was kind of the point?

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The problem with old Dark Arts was that it was mindless spammy, not merely spammy. A bunch of our defensive abilities got stronger for it, but aside from Abyssal Drain and to an extent Dark Passenger, it was a waste to do so when the alternative is using it on something that gets +140 potency because encounters rarely if ever called for improving non damage abilities. And then all the devs took from that was not "give us a reason to Dark Arts our defenses" but "get rid of Dark Arts and just bake it in since that's all we do anyway".

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Originally Posted by Oizen

That be an elegant solution for people who miss the animation, especially if it was just a 30s GCD that was meant to be used for damage in a burst window.
But I'm going to be honest, I want a no damage gap closer as a whole and I like this change.

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Removing the potency makes a gap closer completely thoughtless, you don't even have to plan them out in the few fights that knock you back or has bosses move.
No, it will just always be available. I don't like that. They could have given us a new dps OGCD to fill up the gap but they didn't. They did give Warrior a bunch of new OGCD's though.
With all of these changes, like blood gauge removed from LS, 123 consolidated into 1 button, blood weapon and delirium merged, and Plunge removed, it looks like Warrior will finally not be the most braindead job in the game anymore, it will be Dark knight.

I probably won't be playing tank for the next 3 years.

Because it keeps happening... I wish there was some kind of failsafe for living dead for healers that just don't pay attention in dungeons.

Few have those giant pulls where hey I can always just mix living dead somewhere in the chaos. Psyche they healed it to expiration. Lovely 5 minute cooldown for a skill that, in that moment, did absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

123 consolidated into 1 button

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this is not happening

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Because it keeps happening... I wish there was some kind of failsafe for living dead for healers that just don't pay attention in dungeons.

Few have those giant pulls where hey I can always just mix living dead somewhere in the chaos. Psyche they healed it to expiration. Lovely 5 minute cooldown for a skill that, in that moment, did absolutely nothing.

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Could we not dumb down the game farther? The healer's failure to pay attention is not the fault of the ability. Once you heal through Walking Dead you essentially have Holmgang for the rest of the duration. The CD is justified.

Also, to continue, I did go back and rewatch the trailer for DRK repeatedly to see if I could find anything more, to which...not really.

However, I did notice that it's roughly 18 seconds from Delirium's activation to where they used Unleash, so it's very possible that the mp restore timer just wore off.

My guess is that since Blood Weapon is the ability actually evolving, that Delirium keeps the 5 stack system from Blood Weapon. If it were Delirium -> Blood Weapon I'd find missing out on 1.2k mp more likely.

(To clarify, this would mean that you would have 5 stacks of mp restore via GCD's and the use of the new combo. They would just be separate buffs.)

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Could we not dumb down the game farther? The healer's failure to pay attention is not the fault of the ability. Once you heal through Walking Dead you essentially have Holmgang for the rest of the duration. The CD is justified.

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Oh I'm sorry you wanted to wipe instead. My bad for posting in your presence sire. I never said to dumb the game down but alas you know what I intended more than I did. It was never about the cooldown, it was the fact that if you get a healer who doesn't pay attention then... hey guess what you got no invuln!

My sass aside, it does get grating when I keep getting healers that for all intents and purposes make my invuln useless. Had I been any other tank it wouldn't have mattered :l

It's an entirely dungeon related problem anyway as this doesn't happen in trials or raids.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Oh I'm sorry you wanted to wipe instead. My bad for posting in your presence sire. I never said to dumb the game down but alas you know what I intended more than I did. It was never about the cooldown, it was the fact that if you get a healer who doesn't pay attention then... hey guess what you got no invuln!

My sass aside, it does get grating when I keep getting healers that for all intents and purposes make my invuln useless. Had I been any other tank it wouldn't have mattered :l

It's an entirely dungeon related problem anyway as this doesn't happen in trials or raids.

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Like I said, you're still invulnerable after you heal through it with your own GCD's. It's just whatever was left on the duration. You're more likely to die to it in a raid setting than a dungeon setting ever since they updated it.

I saw your post when getting an oil change but my grievances are all on the "living dead' side of things. Ever since the heal change I haven't had complaints on the walking dead side. Living dead for all intents and purposes does absolutely nothing if you don't die :l, and that's the issue I have with those healers who don't pay attention. The kind of advice that doesn't work too well outside of ffxiv: "Let me die!" Then it expires and I die. When Walking dead procs the timer changes to 10 seconds and that's all good! When "Living dead" expires, less good!

Story time: Dohn Mheg with a WHM healer. Got to the first major pull after the second boss and the white mage, no less than 3 times, bene'd me before living dead changed into Walking Dead. Me and one dps told them as many times as we could (realistically) to not do that, because they were incapable of healing that pull but walking dead would've compensated. Had no choice but to single pull because they wouldn't let walking dead proc off of living dead.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

this is not happening

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I thought this was gonna happen and it would be optional didn't they say that in the live letter or did people misunderstand?

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I thought this was gonna happen and it would be optional didn't they say that in the live letter or did people misunderstand?

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its only for actions that unlock another ability
like mirage dive and jump not the primary combo

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Also, to continue, I did go back and rewatch the trailer for DRK repeatedly to see if I could find anything more, to which...not really.
However, I did notice that it's roughly 18 seconds from Delirium's activation to where they used Unleash, so it's very possible that the mp restore timer just wore off.
My guess is that since Blood Weapon is the ability actually evolving, that Delirium keeps the 5 stack system from Blood Weapon. If it were Delirium -> Blood Weapon I'd find missing out on 1.2k mp more likely.

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If it fell off, you'd hear a debuff falloff noise at the 15s mark, as well as a blue aura around the character as that happened, this isn't present.
The new Delirium is 3 stacks and one buff based on my observation.

The outcomes could be:
Each hit Restores 1200 MP single Target, with an additional 1200 mp if you use Quietus
The MP values stayed the same and the cooldown was reduced to 30s

But we just dont know yet. I could see either as likely as I doubt they want to change the MP economy of Dark Knight too much given how much casuals complain about its frailty. Nerfing TBN is probably the last thing you want to do.
I also could see the 30s route being explored as it be a way to nerf potency out of DRK's 2m combo to keep it from being a balancing nightmare like it was in Endwalker. It would also give DRK more to do outside of burst windows, and shift people calling it a WAR clone to a GNB clone, a job that they've lumped it together with in the gap closer removal.


Or they'll just keep it 60s because changing anything is too hard for the devs and they're busy making the Foamstars sequel

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Originally Posted by Oizen

If it fell off, you'd hear a debuff falloff noise at the 15s mark, as well as a blue aura around the character as that happened, this isn't present.
The new Delirium is 3 stacks and one buff based on my observation.

The outcomes could be:
Each hit Restores 1200 MP single Target, with an additional 1200 mp if you use Quietus
The MP values stayed the same and the cooldown was reduced to 30s

But we just dont know yet. I could see either as likely as I doubt they want to change the MP economy of Dark Knight too much given how much casuals complain about its frailty. Nerfing TBN is probably the last thing you want to do.
I also could see the 30s route being explored as it be a way to nerf potency out of DRK's 2m combo to keep it from being a balancing nightmare like it was in Endwalker. It would also give DRK more to do outside of burst windows, and shift people calling it a WAR clone to a GNB clone, a job that they've lumped it together with in the gap closer removal.


Or they'll just keep it 60s because changing anything is too hard for the devs and they're busy making the Foamstars sequel

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I could get behind 30s Delirium (and 60s Living Shadow?), although unless the delirium combo has healing potency tacked on, it would make our sustain worse...which would be kind of a funny direction considering the expansion long complaints about it.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

If it fell off, you'd hear a debuff falloff noise at the 15s mark, as well as a blue aura around the character as that happened, this isn't present.
The new Delirium is 3 stacks and one buff based on my observation.

The outcomes could be:
Each hit Restores 1200 MP single Target, with an additional 1200 mp if you use Quietus
The MP values stayed the same and the cooldown was reduced to 30s

But we just dont know yet. I could see either as likely as I doubt they want to change the MP economy of Dark Knight too much given how much casuals complain about its frailty. Nerfing TBN is probably the last thing you want to do.
I also could see the 30s route being explored as it be a way to nerf potency out of DRK's 2m combo to keep it from being a balancing nightmare like it was in Endwalker. It would also give DRK more to do outside of burst windows, and shift people calling it a WAR clone to a GNB clone, a job that they've lumped it together with in the gap closer removal.


Or they'll just keep it 60s because changing anything is too hard for the devs and they're busy making the Foamstars sequel

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Damn. Got me there.

between the two, I would much rather have 30s Delirium. It would drastically help the job's feel outside of burst windows. I would take a Gnashing Fang clone over an Inner Release clone any day of the week.

Though really the only difference is one is every 30s and the other is every 60s, that shorter cooldown does wonders

The only meaningful change so far might be the fighting gamesque dash. It hurts they haven't bothered to update our GCDs at any capacity and Salt and Darkness is still a thing.

We're the only tank, job even that gets stuck with the same 1-2-3 filler gcd combo from 30-100. Jobs that came after us and start at level 70 have all sorts of traits and visual upgrades and variety to their kit for levels they don't even start at or play at unless synched down.

Now that they removed plunge and the reduction of ogcds, we're going to be left with little to do with no delirium. This compounds with Abyssal Drain having a shared cooldown with Carve and Spit.

This a masterclass of aggressive game design. "We will technically do what you want but you'll hate it." Without all the QoL changes we've been begging for years now too.

What are the chances they unlink abyssal drain from C&S and give it some buffs? It's the one iconic skill we have left and it being relegated to dungeon only skill is painful. Lower the cd, give it a short regen and we get more things to do and it fix some sustain issues. Its not that hard SE.

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Originally Posted by Jakulo

What are the chances they unlink abyssal drain from C&S and give it some buffs? It's the one iconic skill we have left and it being relegated to dungeon only skill is painful. Lower the cd, give it a short regen and we get more things to do and it fix some sustain issues. Its not that hard SE.

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Very low chance, job design team never makes good decisions for these things unless its for Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Jakulo

What are the chances they unlink abyssal drain from C&S and give it some buffs? It's the one iconic skill we have left and it being relegated to dungeon only skill is painful. Lower the cd, give it a short regen and we get more things to do and it fix some sustain issues. Its not that hard SE.

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AD wasn't shown at all in the trailer while C&S is, so its very likely they're still acting like its Upheaval/Orogeny

Even though realistically Abyssal Drain could have twice the heal potency on half the cooldown and still come up short compared to what PLD and WAR are bringing

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Originally Posted by Keagian

Very low chance, job design team never makes good decisions for these things unless its for Warrior.

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I remember when drk was the warrior with dark arts abyssal drain in stormblood for trash packs. Man I really miss blood price…….

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I remember when drk was the warrior with dark arts abyssal drain in stormblood for trash packs. Man I really miss blood price…….

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*Sudden holy appears*

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

*Sudden holy appears*

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At least you still got some passive blood generation out of it...back when blood actually interacted with MP and wasn't just the completely disconnected Bloodspiller gauge.

Then again why would you have used Blood Price on trash when you could've just used Blood Weapon? Significantly more MP, more blood and DA+Abyssal had bonus enmity so you didn't need Grit for aggro.

Actually depressing when you think about how SB Dark Knight was considered a worse version of HW DrK but was still significantly better designed than anything post-5.0.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Then against why would you have used Blood Price on trash when you could've just used Blood Weapon? Significantly more MP, more blood and DA+Abyssal had bonus enmity so you didn't need Grit for aggro..

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Blood Price was MP when you took damage. Blood Weapon was when you dealt physical damage. Blood Price was absolutely the better ability for MP regen on trash.

Yoshi P in Live Letter: "We want to focus on job identity in the future."

Also Yoshi P: Gets rid of Plunge, a sick overhead leap with a giant weapon, and gives us a uninteresting homogenized monk-esque teleport.

Getting some seriously mixed signals here. Among other changes to DRK and tanks in general in the Live Letter. Don't really feel like I should give the dev team the benefit of the doubt when it comes to future job changes at this point.