What's your first impression of Eureka?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm saying I take issue with those who barely touched it and raged about it on the forums. There are some people who said stuff like "I gave up after two levels". That attitude doesn't give any content a chance.

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People that don't like Eureka can't catch a break on this.

If people complain they went in for a bit and hated it, they get told they didn't do enough of it so their feelings to the content are wrong. THEN they go in and bother doing it because they're being pushed that not doing it means they don't know how it is, and now they're getting told because they're doing it they MUST like it.

That's my experience with the wonderful Novice network. "Oh look at all the complaining, but where is everyone? Oh in Eureka" Ya maybe because people keep telling us our opinion on content doesn't matter until we do enough to warrent its own plat trophy on PlayStation...

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Read my whole post. I said loads of people complained when they had no clue about the most efficient way to play. Some of these people had no clue how fates spawned.

My point is a lot of players complained about content when they didn't even know how it worked. And that was very annoying to see.

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I got cussed out on day 1 for telling people that their judgement of content after 5mins of play was invalid. As I predicted, the way the content is played has changed as players discover more about it, and people are having more fun with it.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

People that don't like Eureka can't catch a break on this.

If people complain they went in for a bit and hated it, they get told they didn't do enough of it so their feelings to the content are wrong. THEN they go in and bother doing it because they're being pushed that not doing it means they don't know how it is, and now they're getting told because they're doing it they MUST like it.

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I hope you don't mean to say I'm doing this because at least twice in my last few posts I said it's cool if you dislike if you actually gave it a proper shot.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I got cussed out on day 1 for telling people that their judgement of content after 5mins of play was invalid. As I predicted, the way the content is played has changed as players discover more about it, and people are having more fun with it.

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I spent the last three hours after finally clearing Phantom train power levelling my friend who hadn't been able to start Eureka until today (due to college) to level 5. first by tossing him the odd clemency while he soloed lvl 1's and 2's until level 3, then hordes and hordes of leeches and sea bishops. I won't say we didn't have a good time, because we did, bu it was agonizingly slow because the train simply would not spawn Sabotender, Teles or Lord. (Which meant that I got absolutely nothing to show for my efforts either.)

This meta needs to go! It is UNFAIR AND NEITHER FUN NOR ENJOYABLE AT ALL!!

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I got cussed out on day 1 for telling people that their judgement of content after 5mins of play was invalid. As I predicted, the way the content is played has changed as players discover more about it, and people are having more fun with it.

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I feel like you may be misidentifying where the fun is coming from here, considering nothing has fundamentally changed. On Day 1 players were joining parties, chain killing monsters, and running to fight Notorious Monsters when they spawned. Now, players are joining parties, chain killing monsters, and running to fight Notorious Monsters when they spawn. The types of monsters killed and the frequency of Notorious Monster spawns have changed, but little else. As far as the grind itself goes it's shown to be more tolerable than it initially seemed, but I'd hesitate to call that realization part of the fun personally.

To get to my point, I think some in here may be conflating what's fun about the content objectively versus what's fun about it subjectively. Are you having fun because you actually enjoy Eureka itself, or because you enjoy communal aspects of Eureka? Is killing cactuars the fun part, or is spending time chatting with your party or your friends in voice chat while doing something together the fun part? The gameplay itself isn't that different from doing FATEs in Northern Thanalan for hours on end, but nobody will say the FATEs were the fun part compared to the social interaction. In the same vein, pressing your DPS rotation for hours on end killing Notorious Monsters and getting hand cramps isn't exactly what people are enjoying about Eureka.

MMOs are inherently communal experiences so I'm not trying to negate that part of it, but I think it's important to separate things out here. Many of the disappointment with and complaints about Eureka have to do with the objective experience compared to the subjective, and the people defending it frequently talk about the subjective rather than the objective. Yes, Eureka is a throwback in many ways to the older days of MMO gameplay where it was the people and not the game that made the experience, and I think that's cool and I'm glad there are people enjoying that. Similarly though, I think there are genuine, inherent problems with the long tail on Eureka and how it plays that really, really need to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's why they don't like it that bothers some people.

Some players are just not going to like the sort of environment Eureka offers because that isn't their thing, fine. We're all different. You can't please everyone.

But loads of people went in, got a few levels at most, left and spammed the forums with how Eureka is awful. Loads of these people complained that fates didn't spawn, clearly having no clue that they all need certain conditions to spawn. Others complained that mobs were too strong, again being unaware that while the content is possible to do solo it's really intended for groups.

However some came back to the forums again and said stuff like "actually it's not as bad as I thought, I didn't know about <thing> and I like <other thing>" and I commend them for taking back some of what they said.

My point is so many were far too quick to judge. The knowledge about Eureka is now obviously designed to be player driven. The community figures it out. Some of us got too used to the quest utility putting orange circles on our maps handholding all our decision making.

This is unfamiliar waters for anyone who didn't play old school mmos. I get it. But it's still pretty silly to basically poke your head in, gain two levels and decide it's all crap. If I did that with XIV when I started I wouldn't be playing anymore. I found many things about the game downright awkward at first because I wasn't used to it and didn't know so many things...you know...kind of like how many feel about Eureka when they start.

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It is ALL SES fault for making the place not feel like you are making no progress starting out. Do you magically forget how fast MOST games, yes even FFXI!!!! let you level faster as you dip your toes in? Also let us not forget nothing changed, we went from Mass aoe to mass aoe specific monsters to spawn NMs, the basic idea did not change, we got no content for the 17 months of wait and stripping SB of some content to program this no content place.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

People that don't like Eureka can't catch a break on this.

If people complain they went in for a bit and hated it, they get told they didn't do enough of it so their feelings to the content are wrong. THEN they go in and bother doing it because they're being pushed that not doing it means they don't know how it is, and now they're getting told because they're doing it they MUST like it.

That's my experience with the wonderful Novice network. "Oh look at all the complaining, but where is everyone? Oh in Eureka" Ya maybe because people keep telling us our opinion on content doesn't matter until we do enough to warrent its own plat trophy on PlayStation...

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yup

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I got cussed out on day 1 for telling people that their judgement of content after 5mins of play was invalid. As I predicted, the way the content is played has changed as players discover more about it, and people are having more fun with it.

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clearly you are not reading what people are saying

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Even before we knew how to spawn NMs consistently, the idea of rounding up and aoeing down mobs was the go-to strategy from the start. Heres my first post from release day:

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Im so bored. So sosososos ososo os so bored. Even with mobs hitting tanks like trucks its unbelievably boring. Round up mobs, nuke them down. Round up mobs, nuke them down. Round up mobs, nuke them down. Spin the wheel, we're changing zones! Round up mobs, nuke them down. Round up mobs, nuke them down. Round up mobs, nuke them down.

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My point is that fundamentally nothing has changed since day 1. If you were bored before, you will likely still be bored now, you will likely still be bored tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I hope you don't mean to say I'm doing this because at least twice in my last few posts I said it's cool if you dislike if you actually gave it a proper shot.

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Oh but you did imply that very message:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This is unfamiliar waters for anyone who didn't play old school mmos. I get it. But it's still pretty silly to basically poke your head in, gain two levels and decide it's all crap.

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Some people like me will not understand at all what people find fun about no content. waiting 17 months being told it is not diadem 3.0 to give us diadem 3.0. Do not social pressure people that they need to play something they dislike, only to to make the person feel pressured to play it more and feel they end up wasting more of their time. In this diadem 3.0 those 2 levels take too long and nothing changes what you have to do. You do the same thing at level 1 as level 20.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

I agree with this. I think that discussion would be very valuable and in a way, that's what we're having.

I do think you are misreading people's motives though. The fact that some of us find Eureka 'boring' isn't simply a cry for 'instant gratification'. I don't want an 'instant Relic' and I don't think anyone has asked for that. Getting something without any effort at all is extremely boring and devalues it in many people's eyes, mine included. eg, when WoW started showering everyone with Purple gear in WoD, I stopped getting excited about it.

But I cannot say Eureka is interesting when there is only one 'correct' style of play, no quests to speak of and no incentive to explore. I've done long grinds in the past but I never found them interesting in themselves or fun, it was purely down to reward and there being nothing else to do (and very few other games to play).

For a modern game, I'd expect a lot more than what we have been given. Killing the same mobs over and over until you level up and can go kill higher level mobs over and over is not terrible in itself but having just that to do in an entire new area is disappointing.

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I think that's fair. I spent some time in Eureka a few hours ago, and as soon as the NM train stopped, my party lost all sense of direction.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

I'm sorry but no this is nothing like relic and mythic in FFXI. In FFXI dynamis used to be relevant content, that had meaningful gameplay. Here Eureka is merely a zergfest such as all open world content in FFXIV.

I would have been fine with something like dynamis or abyssea (which Eureka is nothing like).

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I'd question whether you played it, especially with Dynamis as your example. In the old days, you were required to both take an alliance and take it slow, not to mention the rarity of relic armor and ancient currency drops. These days Dynamis is easily solo content for a weapon that requires a ton of extra grinding just to bring it up to decent standards, and some jobs don't even need it (black mages do better with the lathi, a drop from an Escha NM, for example).

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Difference is the reward for relic/mythic weapons in FFXI were very worth the time and effort put into them. No other weapons outclassed them and they stuck around for years and years in being relevant. Right now at ilvl255, this gear is not worth it beyond the glamour. It might be in the future, but not right now. The conceptual idea of this content is fine, how it was executed is flawed severely. It is baffling how boring and bare bones it is.

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I think you meant item level 355, but it's very worth it for people who don't raid. Other than that, I think you have a good point.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

You clearly never played XI then. Relic and mythic weapons were worthwhile gear for years not weeks to 1-2 months. The current relic isn't even competitive with the tomestone gear of this patch, and probably won't see an ilvl increase until 4.3 at the earliest and possibly even 4.35 a mere month or 2 before the ilvl on gear jumps up again.

The posts about it not being worth the time is in regard to what I just said, there are easier ways to obtain equivalent or better gear now. And posts about it being boring is in regard to it's nothing but a map with mob to mindlessly kill to pop NM's to zerg rush. It's essentially Diadem 1.0 except you can't camp in one spot for the RNG big mobs to kill you have to run around which doesn't ignore the core fact that its everything people said they didn't want.

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You clearly misunderstood me, and I did play FINAL FANTASY XI. Grinding for the Eureka gear is similar to grinding for a relic in terms of actually playing the game, which involves killing a lot of the same thing while hoping for specific drops. You're correct in that relic and mythic weapons were worth their weight in gold for years, but that doesn't help any of your other points. Maybe be nicer in the future, too.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

You clearly misunderstood me, and I did play FINAL FANTASY XI. Grinding for the Eureka gear is similar to grinding for a relic in terms of actually playing the game, which involves killing a lot of the same thing while hoping for specific drops. You're correct in that relic and mythic weapons were worth their weight in gold for years, but that doesn't help any of your other points. Maybe be nicer in the future, too.

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No it is not the same, if you think old Dynamis is the same as this diadem 3.0 and you claim you play ffxi, I question how good your memory is. First off you had to approach each city differently, sometimes you had to approach different NMs differently, Some need sac pulling, some low man groups took 2 or 3 blms and solo statues as they slept stuff, call outs, stun rotations on scrops, make sure the avatar stays slept or be one shoted. DO NOT DARE compare this mindless zerfest to Dynamis, they are very very different. A long grind for something does not make the play experience of the 2 the same.

Also Fyi the grind is still different, you still got gear as drops, you did not "grind" long for gear. The weapon took a long time, not gear.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

You clearly misunderstood me, and I did play FINAL FANTASY XI. Grinding for the Eureka gear is similar to grinding for a relic in terms of actually playing the game, which involves killing a lot of the same thing while hoping for specific drops. You're correct in that relic and mythic weapons were worth their weight in gold for years, but that doesn't help any of your other points. Maybe be nicer in the future, too.

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clearly you remember the experience wrong if you think they are the same.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

I think you meant item level 355, but it's very worth it for people who don't raid. Other than that, I think you have a good point.

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i345* weapon and i350 for armor, both armor and weapon are outdated on release. At release people had unlimited easy access to 350 armor, one job to have a 360 weapon (causal play) while hard core play had a heavy mix of 370 and 360 gear. Releasing gear this low in a huge time gate time sink is no content.

They could done 2.0 relic pages for these without the diadem area and have the same effect while saving 17 months of development. We did not get what we paid for for stormblood.

Edit, as we are limited of how many posts we make, I do not feel replying to the below is worth taking 1 post quota away:

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Well aren't you touchy.

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I do not like white knights giving false information, and the fact you can't even comment on the points I made speaks wonders. Goes back to this quote:

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

People that don't like Eureka can't catch a break on this.

If people complain they went in for a bit and hated it, they get told they didn't do enough of it so their feelings to the content are wrong. THEN they go in and bother doing it because they're being pushed that not doing it means they don't know how it is, and now they're getting told because they're doing it they MUST like it.

That's my experience with the wonderful Novice network. "Oh look at all the complaining, but where is everyone? Oh in Eureka" Ya maybe because people keep telling us our opinion on content doesn't matter until we do enough to warrent its own plat trophy on PlayStation...

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Do not treat people like that because you accept the smallest things and call it the greatest wonders. Do not chew out people for not accepting so little content just because you are willing to accept and follow anything. Going to your "i345 is good for people that do not raid" is false, there is i350 crafted, i355 ex, i360 (for one job in casual play) If you are going to argue no "hard" content at all, there is 320 crafted and 340 unlimited quick play.

Now lets assume your highest play is expert.. well i320 crafted is still cheap enough and good for expert... no reason for a "non raider" to grind here for i345 weapon, other then glam, and SE should did better with that. I guess you can say I get "touchy" when they misinform the facts for their personal agenda.

I think me being upset for no content after 17 + months of development is warranted. Then on top of things, I think it is valid for me be upset those that want to defend this no content situation acting like we are supposed to like it because it reminds them of FFXI in some twisted way. Diadem 3.0 and ffxi are NOTHING alike outside exp parties in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

*screech*

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Well aren't you touchy.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

No it is not the same, if you think old Dynamis is the same as this diadem 3.0 and you claim you play ffxi, I question how good your memory is. First off you had to approach each city differently, sometimes you had to approach different NMs differently, Some need sac pulling, some low man groups took 2 or 3 blms and solo statues as they slept stuff, call outs, stun rotations on scrops, make sure the avatar stays slept or be one shoted. DO NOT DARE compare this mindless zerfest to Dynamis, they are very very different. A long grind for something does not make the play experience of the 2 the same.

Also Fyi the grind is still different, you still got gear as drops, you did not "grind" long for gear. The weapon took a long time, not gear.

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First, it sounds like your Dynamis strategies differed from the ones I ended up with. We still did just fine, but armor took longer partly because everyone wanted everything. You should be thankful you don't have to cast lots for protean crystals in Eureka, but you're not. You come across as an entitled brat.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

clearly you remember the experience wrong if you think they are the same.

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No, actually I don't. We just used different strategies.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

i345* weapon and i350 for armor, both armor and weapon are outdated on release. At release people had unlimited easy access to 350 armor, one job to have a 360 weapon (causal play) while hard core play had a heavy mix of 370 and 360 gear. Releasing gear this low in a huge time gate time sink is no content.

They could done 2.0 relic pages for these without the diadem area and have the same effect while saving 17 months of development. We did not get what we paid for for stormblood.

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You know, most of that development was probably making sure an instance with 140 or so people actually worked. You're just mad because you're too used to instant gratification with this game and think you're entitled to demand things from the devs when you pay for the privilege of playing the game they made. A privilege you squander by screaming at people on the Internet like a hooligan. People with your attitude would not be missed if you quit the game entirely. Maybe instead of showing off your lack of humility and common decency, you could present your points with politeness. Better chance of you keeping/earning respect that way.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Oh but you did imply that very message

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So apparently it's not cool to be annoyed when people judge something they know next to nothing about. And it's not cool to say it's fine if they don't like it if they tried it properly.

Wtf...

Starting to feel like my input is deemed unworthy if I don't hate Eureka.

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