Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Rest in peace, any semblance of difficulty DRG had. At least we got insane buffs tho. And magic defense!

Yay drg buffs

BOO nin nerfs

DRG being buffed in 2.45.

The question was asked, the answer was delivered!

No problem, guys. :D On a serious note, I thought they would of just given something like impulse rush outside of PvP. Rather than.. make the positional hit regardless.

Still was nice mastering how to land HT. I hope it's more like.. "if you hit it from the flank, you gain the max damage increase" and if not you gain the buff, but not the same dmg increase.

It'll be a nice buff, largely for stuff like T9 where the mobs do a lot of spinning and there are phases where you can't stand to the side/flank of the boss. Haven't done any FCoB to speak of, but we'll see how it goes there!

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Originally Posted by HulveinBlitz

Still was nice mastering how to land HT. I hope it's more like.. "if you hit it from the flank, you gain the max damage increase" and if not you gain the buff, but not the same dmg increase.

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In all likelihood both ID and HT will still have the same (or more with buffs) potency when landed properly and the same crap damage if done elsewhere, but the effect coming through will be very nice. It's something you can carry over currently, only it'll be go from what was necessary to be able to keep up with other DPS to what separates the best DRGs from the average ones.

I bet that HT and ID will still have the same effects no matter where u land them, just if you land the correct positional you will receive extra potency on the attack itself, kind if like Monks.

I sort of like the positional removal for the buff, simply because it's a pain to have your entire rotation gimped by one mistimed HT/ID. I'll gladly take a potency loss over that.

That's hilarious, I knew they'd decrease damage received through BFB. That was an issue for us DRGs since 2.0. (It should be traited, not on the skill itself however). I was about to write up an essay on that "DRG has been broken thread" before I just said "fuck it!", as the changes were too obvious lol.

Plebotomise really needed updating, especially when NIN has Shadow Fang.

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Originally Posted by Daweism

I bet that HT and ID will still have the same effects no matter where u land them, just if you land the correct positional you will receive extra potency on the attack itself, kind if like Monks.

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Exactly what will happen.

I'm kind of hoping DFD's C/D gets reduced even more to match a NINs Trick Attack and receives a slight potency increase. I've always felt 250 is too little for such a large cooldown. That would balance a lot of things and being able to have a DFD every burst rotation would be beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Mibhas

It'll be a nice buff, largely for stuff like T9 where the mobs do a lot of spinning and there are phases where you can't stand to the side/flank of the boss. Haven't done any FCoB to speak of, but we'll see how it goes there!

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Well in my experience the golems turning around are kind of annoying but really it's not a problem when you have a good tank that aggros it firmly thus it doesn't spin around. The issue of positionals start to be realized during FCoB for example... Imdugud will cast his skills thus you are forced to stay where you are or else you can clip / get clipped by a Heat Lightning / Cyclone. Now that what hurts the most IMO.

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Originally Posted by Daweism

I bet that HT and ID will still have the same effects no matter where u land them, just if you land the correct positional you will receive extra potency on the attack itself, kind if like Monks.

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IMO that's pretty bland to repeat what MNKs have. IMO it's more interesting if HT grants more bonus damage if landed on the right side. Let's say a non-positional HT will give a 10% buff while a right HT will give 20%. That will give more incentive to land your HTs right rather than just a potency increase. A potency increase will give the mentality of "ahh nvm the potency loss, the important thing is I get the buff". But the point is if you do mislanded your HT, you won't be left with nothing like it is now.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

et's say a non-positional HT will give a 10% buff while a right HT will give 20%. That will give more incentive to land your HTs right rather than just a potency increase.

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While true, that's not the case with Monks, and it'd be a bit unfair to make the positionals that important for DRG whereas for MNK it's just a slight potency loss. If I got a 10% buff on my HT, I would have to do it again for the 20%. If the boss turned and I missed my HT, gained the normal buff, and it costed me some potency on that HT, then I wouldn't be bothered because my rotation will keep going. The trouble before is if you missed, you had to use another GCD to reapply it. This added... I'm going to say "challenge" to the job but I'm not sure if that's the right word. Regardless, a lot of people complained about it, and now they're just bringing it down to MNK positional territory.

I honestly dont like the positional change.

There really isn't any place in final coil where you can't prepare for boss movement in advance and either adjust your rotation or hit your positional in that 1 second window before like the megaflare stack kills you. I mean I guess it'll be the same still since meeting it will +dps but I really enjoy trying to meet positionals through mechanics and adjusting rotations to get through them.

"Before we added ninja, monk was clearly the better DPS but had a way higher skill ceiling so this difference was ok."

I really don't like that. I don't think skill ceiling should affect dps that much. Does that mean that any "good" player who can hit both skill ceilings should be playing monk?

I didn't switch to monk despite drg shortcomings but if it ends up like a monk that doesn't have to keep up greased lightning then I might switch simply because it's too boring or there's no challenge involved. We have two skills that require positionals. If it's a slight potency loss on both then the difference between a drg who hits all positionals and one who doesn't will be extremely minimal unlike monks who has positionals on every part of their 3 move combo.

HT and disembowel was 50 dps during a 8min avatar fight. Most monk potency drops are like 20% for missing positionals. This means that if the change is similar then you will lose 10 dps over an 8 minute fight if you do not hit any positionals what so ever.

Will see depending on details of the changes.

The thing that is seemed to be made the most prominent buff is changing how positional work, imo this only helps bad drgs. it takes out the difficulty of the class. i rarely miss positionals, even on t9, if you know what your doing and think ahead you wont have a problem 90% of the time. so then there is little dps increase here if your doing your shit right.

what i was really hoping for is a reason for parties to bring a drg to party, some utility that every other class has except drg. i want a group that wipes so say "damn, if we had a drg we couldve lived past that". the only substitution for a lack of utility should be a huge advantage in dps, which i doubt drg will have after these buffs, and honestly i wouldnt want. mnks/nins can have their dps. i just drgs to be wanted in a party for some reason

edit: I guess im sick of seeing drg viewed of as a loldrg, why cant we be an asset to party like other dps. i know i thank my ninja every time i see a 2k+ crit because of the beauty of trick attack or the unlimited TP they give me, or my smn for rezing me after being animation locked. every class should have something that they can bring to party that is unique and useful in various ways. drg doesnt have this. sureeee we give bard a buff, but this a joke

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Originally Posted by CesarLongsword

I want a group that wipes so say "damn, if we had a drg we couldve lived past that". the only substitution for a lack of utility should be a huge advantage in dps, which i doubt drg will have after these buffs, and honestly i wouldnt want. mnks/nins can have their dps. i just drgs to be wanted in a party for some reason

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It doesn't have to be utility. DRGs may be given really good burst DPS so the "damn, if we had a drg we couldve lived past that" would change into "damn, if we had a drg we could've killed the adds faster / push that 2% left on the boss and clear".

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

It doesn't have to be utility. DRGs may be given really good burst DPS so the "damn, if we had a drg we couldve lived past that" would change into "damn, if we had a drg we could've killed the adds faster / push that 2% left on the boss and clear".

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yea i guess, this goes along with my point about huge advantage in dps. drg burst is already nice, but.... now with ninjas trick attack, and its ability to boost a whole parties burst. which would you rather have 1 dps with a nice burst, or a dps that can make whole party have a nice burst?

but yes i guess it doesnt have to be utility, i think thats just what i would prefer is all. just something to make the "damn, if we had a drg ...." happen

I've always wanted the Dragoon to have the highest skill-cap, but be the strongest pure DPS class only. 0 Utility, every manDPS for him/herself. That way, we have a high DPS melee class with no raid utility (DRG), then two classes with similar DPS which provide different raid utility (MNK + NIN). Depending on the encounter, you'd need to have 1/2 of the 3 in your group and always switch between them. But that'll only exist in an ideal world.

I'm kind of 50/50 about the positional changes to be honest. I mean it's nice! Don't get me wrong. It helps when you have "fidgety" tanks who love moving around constantly when you're doing PUG dungeons/coil/scyrus (Which I've been doing a lot...), but it also does abolish the skillcap the Dragoon had. There's going to be much smaller disparity between bad and good players and I've always been on the mindset that player skill should be shown in their DPS.

The only thing we really needed was DPS increases and M.Def buffs.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

The only thing we really needed was DPS increases and M.Def buffs.

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This. For me they could have just buffed HT +5-10% and be done with it. It seems that they will be overdoing it.

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Originally Posted by xnonamex

This. For me they could have just buffed HT +5-10% and be done with it. It seems that they will be overdoing it.

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Overbuffed is always good man... finally we can laugh at those who says lolDRG because they're weak while we can burn burn burn burn

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Overbuffed is always good man... finally we can laugh at those who says lolDRG because they're weak while we can burn burn burn burn

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you're assuming the dps adjustments will be high

they only talked about cd reductions and +potency on dots

will need to wait for details but I'm worried that the main meat of the adjustments was this positional thing which will make no difference to top dragoons

slight dot potency buffs and lower cooldown on skills isn't gonna make up that 10%~ damage difference from a drg and a mnk, even with disembowel factored in. unless they do something like reduce the cd of bfb to 60s or something, drg dps (and utility obviously) will still be behind mnk and pre-nerf nin

don't really like the direction they seem to be taking

What I feel would be most appropriate:

Jump
- C/D reduced to 30s
- Potency increase to 250

Power Surge
- C/D reduced to 30s

Dragonfire Dive
- C/D reduced to 60s.
- Potency increase to 300

Plebotomise
- Potency increase to 200
- DoT potency increased to 30

Chaos Thrust
- DoT Potency increased to 40

Enhanced Blood for Blood (Trait)
- C/D also reduced to 60s
- Decreases damage received from 25% to 15%

I'm still on the edge of having Heavy Thrust boosted by a further 5% however. I'd also like Spineshatter Drives stun to change into a debuff. Maybe 10% increased damage for 10s instead? It'll keep the same cooldown and the low-damage to balance it out.

well to seperate the good dragoons from the bad I hope the potency of directional attacks are huge like heavy trust not from performed from the side has a potency of 30 and if you do it from the side it will be w/e it is now i think it is 130 now.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

What I feel would be most appropriate:

Jump
- C/D reduced to 30s
- Potency increase to 250

Power Surge
- C/D reduced to 30s

Dragonfire Dive
- C/D reduced to 60s.
- Potency increase to 300

Plebotomise
- Potency increase to 200
- DoT potency increased to 30

Chaos Thrust
- DoT Potency increased to 40

Enhanced Blood for Blood (Trait)
- C/D also reduced to 60s
- Decreases damage received from 25% to 15%

I'm still on the edge of having Heavy Thrust boosted by a further 5% however. I'd also like Spineshatter Drives stun to change into a debuff. Maybe 10% increased damage for 10s instead? It'll keep the same cooldown and the low-damage to balance it out.

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those are quite a few changes, but drg needs them badly to keep up with mnk/nin at this point. honestly i dont think SE will put enough effort in to do all this, just look at blms

on a side note, am i the only drg that DOESNT want all these cd reductions on jumps? animation lock is still a thing. i guess spineshatter/DFD lock isnt to much of a problem, but jump has gotten me killed more times than i would like. i wouldnt mind a SSD or DFD reduction but i have seen many call for a jump reduction

like for example in t10, my group tanks the boss on top of the ground lightning aoe. so if i use any jump i am dragged into that aoe for half a second and depending on how universal dot ticks happen i can end up dead when that tick dmg is coupled with another mechanic. i try to save jumps for when i have second wind or bloodbath ready so i dont die, but if the way to increase dps is by using jumps more often, it will just end with more "Loldrg".

I'd been hoping for them making Disembowel buff "bleeding" damage or something and then reclassifying several jobs' DoTs, but y'know, balance is a tricky thing :P

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

will need to wait for details but I'm worried that the main meat of the adjustments was this positional thing which will make no difference to top dragoons

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This, its nice for some fights but overall doesn't help the goons that know what they're doing.

I would've preferred a stronger disembowel debuff, a more significant bard boost would probably get people to quit bitching about utility too.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

This, its nice for some fights but overall doesn't help the goons that know what they're doing.

I would've preferred a stronger disembowel debuff, a more significant bard boost would probably get people to quit bitching about utility too.

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That's much harder to balance than buffing DRG itself. If you buff BRD damage, you make DRG BRD BRD caster potentially too good. They should keep BRD damage out of the equation and buff the raw DPS itself.

Is anyone else extremely disappointed with the alleged buffs coming our way? I hope I'm wrong but "dot" potency increases of all things (because when I think of Dragoons dots are the first thing to come to mind) and CD reduction on "some skills" it's looking like we may get around a 5% increase in dps.

Which unfortunately would be unacceptable conduct by SE.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

This, its nice for some fights but overall doesn't help the goons that know what they're doing.

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While the positional changes make me kinda sad too i dont think they are useless. I used to switch to NIN when farming t9 for example, not so much because of the higher dps ceiling (gear difference made it so that the dps difference between my DRG and NIN was fairly small) but because the lack of positionals made my NIN just flat out better when dealing with mechanics or in heavy mob turning situations.

So NINs dps in my eyes was highly uneffected by mechanics and now that DRGs positionals will be close to a non issue, it will be too. Its basically future proof for new content no matter how much BS they come up with and thats a good thing, right?

On a side note, this will also make MNKs dps more deserved since now they are the only ones who have to deal with this.

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Originally Posted by CesarLongsword

on a side note, am i the only drg that DOESNT want all these cd reductions on jumps? animation lock is still a thing. i guess spineshatter/DFD lock isnt to much of a problem, but jump has gotten me killed more times than i would like. i wouldnt mind a SSD or DFD reduction but i have seen many call for a jump reduction

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No, I'm with you: I only use my jumps when I am absolutely sure that the enemy is not about to use an AoE. I won't even touch jumps on fights like Titan EX or Levi EX.

"Before we added ninja, monk was clearly the better DPS but had a way higher skill ceiling so this difference was ok."

quotes like this from yoshida worry me

honestly all dps played perfectly should either be similar in dps to each other or bring some kind of utility to balance out the lack of dps

this monk has a higher "skill ceiling" then they can be the better dps I really do not like

a skilled player can reach the skill ceiling of all three melee classes so at that point, you have to play monk because it's the better class according to yoshida

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

"Before we added ninja, monk was clearly the better DPS but had a way higher skill ceiling so this difference was ok."

quotes like this from yoshida worry me

honestly all dps played perfectly should either be similar in dps to each other or bring some kind of utility to balance out the lack of dps

this monk has a higher "skill ceiling" then they can be the better dps I really do not like

a skilled player can reach the skill ceiling of all three melee classes so at that point, you have to play monk because it's the better class according to yoshida

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Exactly, and for any hardcore endgame raider, the skill ceiling is not exactly hard to reach.

Yea I didn't like it either. I agree that all DPS should be similar regardless of skill ceiling, because a truly skilled player will be maximize the potential a class can do, regardless of whether or not the class is harder to play.

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Originally Posted by Decrith

Yea I didn't like it either. I agree that all DPS should be similar regardless of skill ceiling, because a truly skilled player will be maximize the potential a class can do, regardless of whether or not the class is harder to play.

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And isn't this exactly why they nerfed Ninja? Because the skill ceiling was easier reached than they had thought? Raise the skill ceiling on Dragoon, reward skillful play, punish bad play.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

On a side note, this will also make MNKs dps more deserved since now they are the only ones who have to deal with this.

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Don't jump the gun.

They will probably do to DRG the exact thing as MNK. They will let the positional hit, and you gain the buff, but it will do less than if you hit it from the flank/rear.

I completely cannot see them making it so it does the same, no matter where you hit it from.

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Originally Posted by HulveinBlitz

Don't jump the gun.

They will probably do to DRG the exact thing as MNK. They will let the positional hit, and you gain the buff, but it will do less than if you hit it from the flank/rear.

I completely cannot see them making it so it does the same, no matter where you hit it from.

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Oh thats what i think as well. Its going to work like MNKs like you say, however the lower number of postionals will make it have a rather low effect on overall dps. Pretty much would be a potential loss of 70 potency every 20 seconds and 80 potency every 30 seonds.

I disagree, I think it'll be just like the Monks where you get a potency buff on the hit itself on said positionals, the bleed and HT effects will remain unchanged no matter where it is struck.

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Originally Posted by CesarLongsword

like for example in t10, my group tanks the boss on top of the ground lightning aoe. so if i use any jump i am dragged into that aoe for half a second and depending on how universal dot ticks happen i can end up dead when that tick dmg is coupled with another mechanic. i try to save jumps for when i have second wind or bloodbath ready so i dont die, but if the way to increase dps is by using jumps more often, it will just end with more "Loldrg".

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I do not mean to offend, but it just sounds like you need to learn your timings a bit better, ie. Don't jump when its not safe, and hold some restraint. I know exactly what your talking about with the lightning in T10. What I do is just don't chance it until after Heat Lightning and Prey

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Originally Posted by Daweism

And isn't this exactly why they nerfed Ninja? Because the skill ceiling was easier reached than they had thought? Raise the skill ceiling on Dragoon, reward skillful play, punish bad play.

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No there nerffing Ninja because the players use a rotation that the developers did not think of, and because of this Ninjas are doing more damage than intended. So instead of butchering the already community establish rotation, there just doing some small global nerfs.

Personally I'm putting all my faith on those DoT potency buffs, they -could- potentially save the DRGs, I also like it because I feel the DPS drop would be lower when unable to directly attack the target... But that would probably require quite a boost.

As for HT positional, it has never been that big of a concern to me, but it is annoying when you won't get it to go off when the target decides to turn around suddenly, or the tank is being a derp.

The reason why DRG DPS bugs me is their lack of utility, other classes come with support skills, so it's like an insult to injury when I can't beat a MNK/NIN in DPS despite my best efforts, and don't have anything else to bring on the field. DRGs are pretty much pure DPS, and can't even do that right.

at this point, if all they change is that we still get effect if we miss positionals, we will ONLY lose out on like 20 dps over 8minutes.

I did 50 dps with HT and impulse combined over 8 minutes at the avatar. Assuming lose of potency by missing EVERY positionals and no echo, that is about 20 DPS.

This means that the skilled dragoon that hits EVERY positional would have done 20 more dps than the dragoon that did not hit ANY. Hitting positionals would not be rewarded enough. We're not monks with 6 skills with positionals that we constantly need to hit.

I wouldn't have switched to monk if we didn't get buffed but if it comes out like this and we end up like monks without greased lightning and become a super easy class then yeah, I rather monk.