Eh, I'm not sure I would expect any less. I mean, Puddingway probably knows all the deepest, dankest pudding lore too given that, you know, they're an obsessed fan of pudding. I don't, however, need to be a Puddingway to know that I like chocolate pudding and don't really like vanilla pudding. I'd also never go to Puddingway expecting any sort of unbiased commentary on whether pudding is good or not, knowing that I would not only get told that pudding is great but that it's so great I should eat it for all three meals in a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
-
01-19-2022, 09:39 AMStriderShinryu
-
01-19-2022, 11:06 AMnighttimebunnyI mean yeah, his fans dive deep into his lore->get rewarded for it-> like him even more. I don't think there are many people who can give you an 100% unbiased opinion of him. I either see fans like myself or haters. Much more rare to see people who are neutral and also well versed in his story who don't have emotions clouding their view, positive or negative. most everything i've said in this thread i've tried to back up with facts though.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderShinryu
-
01-19-2022, 11:55 AMRamessesTo the OP:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
Who needs Zenos when I now have my new old best friendo-- the incredible Hythlodeus? He's charming, he's beautiful inside and out, he's mischievous yet kind to the core without being clingy.
https://i.imgur.com/vwtTmAy.jpg
Now-- don't get me wrong-- I've always been a MASSIVE fan of Zenos mainly for the reason that the game thoroughly needed a charcater like him as at when SB was launched. However, between the tail end of Stormblood and end of Shadowbringers, there were certain elements of the writing that made him come across to some of the playerbase as being "boring" or ineffectual towards the development of the WoL.
While I thoroughly disagree with several of the comments regarding his charcater, I can nevertheless understand many players' gripe with his continued placement within the MSQ tale-- and I like to speculate that this can be attributed to several elements, and below are just three:
One other thing to note regarding this "redemption" that some people like to postulate for him is that one has to remember-- by lore standards, Zenos himself doesn't even want redemption-- not only does his selfish destruction of his own capital reinforce this notion-- but he did some really serious heinous deeds while he was Viceroy of Ala Mhigo-- in case you forgot, here are a few screenshots to juggle the memory-- remember all the bodies we discovered in his basement?- His childhood should have been thoroughly examined via the Echo which would have helped give players a more in-depth insight as to why he evolved as he did-- instead, we got mere snippets of his back story through the Chronicles of Light book-- which I reckon was a highly missed opportunity by the Devs for people to better understand his mind set.
- Secondly, had he killed Y'shtola during that early battle at the Reach in Stormblood, that would have firmly placed him on everyone's hated list-- however, the Devs were very correct in recognizing that she is a HUGE favourite (especially in Japan) and killing her off would have been very detrimental to the flow of the future two expansions.
- Thirdly-- and most importantly-- the scenes during the later patches of Shadowbringers should have shown him doing something worthwhile rather than yapping with Fandaniel. Back then, I even tried to justify his continued existence by speculating that he really had been very busy behind the scenes, causing a stir on the other shards and trying to become a vessel for Zodiark. The body snatch quest escapade at Garlemald even made me think this was a prelude to him body snatching Zodiark in the future-- instead (to my bafflement) we had him essentially use the WoL's body to just "scare" the scions-- I really thought this was where he was going to kill Alphy, which would have really fueled the necessary anger needed to hunt him down. But no-- we got a plot device which served to further underline his singular obsession towards the hero
https://i.imgur.com/OFPGZlQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ITpyqrJ.jpg
Like I said-- I loved Zenos as a formidable charcater up to a point-- his gestures, his voice acting, his intellect, his fighting prowess, his disposition towards being unashamedly "evil"-- even his ending during EW was very fitting. One could even argue that his assistance during our battle with Meteion could be credited as an act of redemption for him. Yet, at the very worst, if he is still alive (which I reckon would ruin his ending) let him continue his existence in another dimension with a new obsession. Either that or leave him dead and let us all leave it that way-- he was done.
Bring on (Nerva?) and let's start exploring the development of the inevitable "Larsa" figure that will help rebuild Garlemald. - His childhood should have been thoroughly examined via the Echo which would have helped give players a more in-depth insight as to why he evolved as he did-- instead, we got mere snippets of his back story through the Chronicles of Light book-- which I reckon was a highly missed opportunity by the Devs for people to better understand his mind set.
-
01-19-2022, 05:02 PMnighttimebunny
The thing is, he had a better ending in Stormblood imo. What was the point of bringing him back to die sad and regretful? He did not die with a smile like he did in Stormblood. Not to mention the few plotholes they've created and Yoshi P hinting about his job change/avatar at least twice. It's also a bit odd that the one NPC that represents reaper in the MSQ is "dead." i knew Alphi wouldn't die since he was the Sage representative.
Also Yoshi P said a week ago that Zenos is the only person who sees us as an adventurer, and we are now losing our title as hero and being an adventurer again. (Nitpick but he said "is" when he referred to other dead characters as "was" lol.) -
01-19-2022, 05:30 PMYianKutkuBut given your post that "leaving him alive solves nothing", that means our "final battle" at the edge of the universe also solved nothing, because Zenos is also still alive, when to solve anything he needed to die.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
-
01-19-2022, 06:32 PMnighttimebunnywell that just goes back into the main topic of the thread. I think his death was the death of Zenos as we knew him. He will no longer be an antagonist, because of the tone shift (when you compare the EW ending to his other death.)Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
If he was left “alive” and didn’t have his fight, he would still be an antagonist. I really use alive and dead very loosely with Zenos because we’ve established earlier on that he’s immortal -
01-19-2022, 07:37 PMCKNovel
I'm in the group that loved Zenos in SB but despise his revival and role until EW.
His SB death felt complete, Ran'jit death also felt complete.
But now Zenos death in EW feels incomplete...
We still have many questions about his dreams and avatar that was supposed to be important.
His writing was good for the very low screentime he had. "If I had a reason, would it change anything?" was a very good point to the lack of motives in contrast to Emet-Selch.
I'd like for him to comeback but with a newfound resolve and goal. The hard part is that he remains a criminal and the root of suffering to many.
Sadly, I think he's gone for good. It really looks like he stopped breathing at the end of the cutscene and with no body to possess. -
01-19-2022, 10:46 PMKageTokage
I also think he's actually dead because yes, while he may have an immortal soul like an Ascian, it doesn't mean it can't be snuffed out through means like say, recklessly channeling aether into imitations of primal magicks until it's so spent that it can't hold itself together anymore.
He wanted to "burn the candle of his life", after all. -
01-19-2022, 10:48 PMkaynide
Re: Zenos
Really, my big gripe with him is that his story was essentially done in Stormblood.
The ideas they brought in Endwalker were very interesting/promising, but they just didn't do anything with it. The fact that he could "body jack" others could have been a HUGE deal and would have made for intense intrigue. (is that really Y'shtola? Or any of the nation leaders? Aweful sus!)
..but it turned out to be a whole lotta nothing.
If he never comes back, I'll be fine. I don't hate him, but he's not really adding anything to the story for me. I prefer him dead to be honest.
The only way he could work in a serious way would be to live in exile, on another shard or continent..and even then I'm not sure what to do with him. The only meaningful thing I think they do with him is have him decide the only way to get more powerful is to draw on allies like we do and ultimately change him for the better. -
01-20-2022, 01:40 AMnighttimebunnyHe could be in our body..We saw the aetherial sea for a moment, and he’s been in there before, I’m kind of worried he hitched a ride lol. Ascians are also able to repossess the same body so I don’t know. But the thing is, if the writers wanted to bring him back there are a few ways they could revive him. I just don’t know what their plans are. There are a few questions that remain that only he himself could answer though and the vagueness of the death as well as what the devs have said regarding him is weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
It’s also weird how just moments before he died Meteion turned the place into one of hope and rebirth. When the scene cuts out and we teleport, the sunlight shifts from us and to him. There’s no way that the dynamis doesn’t react to him somehow
I don’t want to go into more since i’d just be repeating myself too much haha. But I do think we’re supposed to be left guessing. -
01-20-2022, 01:44 AMnighttimebunnyThat’s why I don’t think he’s done. If he is, he should’ve stayed dead in Stormblood because what was the point of even showing that he gained Ascian powers and dreams and whatnot? His role in EW could’ve been filled by someone else. That combined with the many clues and hints is just… weird. Yoshi P did say if something seems off, it’s for a good reason, and Zenos is VERY off right now I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
-
01-20-2022, 02:20 AMkaynideI mean, maybe, but ultimately I think it was just fan service; same reason we did Emet and Hytho’s Excellent Adventure. There are better ways to have done the story, but they wanted us to have our moment with fan favorites…and tie it all up as many loose ends as possible shark jumping or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
The bigger question would be, if they bring him back what will be the point? And will that story be better than any countless others they could tell? Will it attract more players than deter? Zenos is utterly irredeemable at this point- his actions are entirely unforgivable.
They basically have a blank slate to do whatever they want to at this point, why would that be the story worth being told?
Those are the questions that they (the devs) would have to answer to keep me onboard. -
01-20-2022, 06:09 AMnighttimebunnyJust wondering-why are Emet and Meteion redeemable and forgivable, but not Zenos? Most of those Zenos has killed are the Garleans/Imperials who are our enemies anyway. He's messed with us and the Scions but never killed us. He didn't even want to be the prince/legatus, he was just forced to by his crappy father, who abused him as a child.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
Meanwhile Emet literally turned a baby into a monster (he may have done something similar to Zenos), caused calamities aka widescale genocide, wanted to turn us into a monster and watch us kill our friends. But we forgave him, because he had a good reason.
With Meteion, it wasn't her fault, but she still literally killed entire stars and we forgave her. Graha Tia also says we must have sympathy for the Omnicrons, the murder robots. It's just weird to me, we redeem all these people/things who have done horrible things, but Zenos who has just killed his own people/our enemies is forever irredeemable, why?
I do agree that they need to make his story good. I trust them.
Also, it was absolutely not fan service. In the recent radio show, Yoshi P says that Emet's popularity had nothing to do with him playing a role in EW, so I doubt Zenos's role was for fan service, especially since he's less popular. They've stated a few times now that they do not take character popularity into account when writing the story. -
01-20-2022, 08:40 AMJandorHe might potentially be reedemable and forgivable in a personal sense, just like Emet and Meteion, but just like Emet and Meteion I'm less sure of his potential to fit into the wider story. Less so in fact, because the wider public know who Zenos is and what he has done.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
A similar scenario comes up in the ranged physical role quests.Yotsuyu was widely known and hated by the people of Doma for what she had done. Tsuyu came back, had a bit of an arc, turns out her parents were abusive just like Zenos were, and Hien was prepared to give her a pass as a result. Plenty of people in Doma weren't prepared to do the same though, to them she was still a monster and all Hien had done was deny them any justice. -
01-20-2022, 11:39 AMkaynideThey aren't, in my opinion. All of them are welcome to die in a fire that is reserved for genocidal villains. As likeable as Emet is, he's a bad guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
Emet's only saving grace is that he has a reason to do what he's doing, and from his point of view he is correct. I would certainly destroy countless ant hills if it meant I could bring back long-dead friends. The warrior of light already kills countless monsters/beastmen because we believe what we are doing is correct. His problem is that we are the ants in this scenario.
Meteion is different in that her "race" wanted to wipe us out, but the individual we met was trying not to listen to them. Her saving grace is her innocence and simply not knowing better. She's essentially a computer- a badly programmed AI. Badly programmed AIs are not forgivable or not- their creators are to blame. -
01-20-2022, 04:35 PMTaleraRistainIt's a bit funny but Zenos answered it himself in a meta way. Their reasons are good enough. His reasons aren't. I completely agree with you that there's a double standard there.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
-
01-20-2022, 07:56 PMCKNovel
Emet-Selch can't be forgiven.
While his actions can be understood, it doesn't justify the crimes.
To him, it still was the correct choice. What if you had to exterminate ants for the sake of saving your friends and family? Of course you'd exterminate the ants.
If those ants had the intelligence of humans they would see you as a mass murderer and an enemy to take down.
Meteion is not the direct cause.
It was the hive mind that caused the final days and took possession of Meteion's body.
Simply put, picture if you were trying to convince anti-vaxx on twitter that their logic is wrong and they should reconsider. Your voice would be drowned by the negative emotion of the masses.
SB Zenos was almost redeemable.
He was a general and only obeying orders. If he wasn't a prince, he probably would've done something else than taking part in the war crimes.
During any war, "murder is okay" because you're doing it for your country and that if you don't, you'll be executed.
But that's at EW that Zenos is not redeemable.
Starts a civil war by murdering the emperor.
Enslaves and make the captured work to death.
Try to start the Final Days, meaning everyone on the planet will experience traumatic events or in the worst case lose their soul.
All of that for what? A duel that would make him feel alive.
Zenos has no empathy, he can't see others as something else than tools. -
01-20-2022, 08:06 PMnighttimebunnyYet the game forces you to forgive them. I just don’t, but I was forced to hold Meteion’s hand anyway. So people should stop complaining about having to fight Zenos at the end (not saying you are complaining just in general have seen a lot of people saying this) because we’re all forced to do crap in this game we don’t necessarily agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
I’m grateful to Zenos for helping us with Endsinger and getting rid of the annoying and horrible Varis and his black rose lmao. I’m not thankful or happy with Emet or Meteion at all, they committed genocide, I don’t really care if they had good reasons for it. Zenos didn’t cause calamities or eradicate entire stars, he was just sad and desperate for a connection.
Just going to say I do not hate Emet or Meteion at all. I think they’re very well written. -
01-21-2022, 12:58 AMCKNovel
Again, nothing says the WoL forgives Emet for his actions.
And that's one of the major reasons why he's going back to the lifestream, he knows it's not his world and that he doesn't deserves to exist in this one.
To his old world, he's a savior. To the current world, he's a monster. He's not forgotten but his motives are understandable.
"The future you seek is not the past we loved."
"But thought you defeated me, my ideals are inviolate, Invincible."
He still believes what he was doing was the right thing to do. And we would do the same.
Meteion is something else, the blue bird we know is not responsible for the Final Days, it's the hivemind composed of her sisters.
We don't resent Thancred for doing things when he was under Lahabrea's control, right? This is the same thing. -
01-21-2022, 01:54 AMkaynide
I don’t recall ever forgiving Emet, just coming to an understanding that our goals were incompatible. Fortunately he bowed out of the fight gracefully. We can accept why people do bad things and even accept them as part of our story without truly forgiving them.
Like, think of the dad who cheats on his wife and eventually marries the side girl. It’s awful to get through, but certainly plenty of families have come to accept their situation and figured out how to live peacefully or even in a friendly way. Doesn’t mean the mom will ever forgive that dad. -
01-21-2022, 03:53 AMnighttimebunny
really wasn’t my point, but alright
-
01-22-2022, 01:35 AMHemlockEvergreen
Emet-Selch was not forgiven though. We killed him.
-
01-22-2022, 02:51 AMCalosa
Not sure if people pointed this out already and I don't have the time to read the whole thing, so apologies, but when Alisaie basically says "If you don't straighten up and actually work with people you're going to be alone for eternity." which is basically "And then Senpai WoL will NEVER notice you!!!!!!!!!!!!"
So that's why Zenos helps us at the end. Because Alisaie's words DID reach him, in essence. He realized that if he wanted WoL to actually care about him, he needed to help get rid of the stuff that was taking away WoL's attention. He didn't want to be alone, so he did things to help. It was a selfish reason, but it's a good way to show him changing without making it feel like a complete 180.
I remember my dad saying "I think he deserves a fight" after seeing Shinryu Zenos come in for the assist, and I think that's what he always wanted. The redemption arc was already there. He heard Alisaie, thought about how he didn't want to be alone forever, figured out how to get his senpai to notice him, and did that. Then he asked for one more fight, and whether or not we agree with him about WoL being a monster who lives for the fight like him, we can mostly agree that after all of his attempts at changing for the better, he deserves to get what he wanted, even if the fight itself was just our way of saying "thanks".
At the end of everything though, what Zenos wanted was the rush of dying, or at least being at near death. If he managed to kill WoL he would still be satisfied, I think, given that it was such a near thing. So when he dies, that's all he ever wanted in life. He's happy, he's ready to move on, and like the rest of the universe that involves a lifestream, his soul isn't gone. It'll be reborn eventually, someday, even if the soul doesn't actually return to the planet and just kinda floats into another planet somewhere else. Either way, Zenos got what he wanted, his redemption arc was fulfilled, and he can reincarnate into someone who has a better chance at not being a jerk. It's win/win/win. I don't hate Zenos and I don't hate his character arc, but I think it has been fulfilled and we don't need to push to make it more than it was, I feel. -
01-22-2022, 03:22 AMnighttimebunnyWe call upon him with our Azem stone, adventure with him in Elpis, have him as a trust NPC. He's shoved into your face regardless of your feelings about him. You don't get an "I forgive you" option but I felt the push to have to accept Emet. Now I didn't really mind because I somewhat like Emet, but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by HemlockEvergreen
-
01-22-2022, 04:41 AMHemlockEvergreenHe is a sympathetic antagonist but a villain nonetheless. He says himself that "The victor shall write the tale and the vanquished shall become it's villain". If anything, is him that ends up having to accept that YOUR point of view is better than his.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
-
01-22-2022, 11:50 AMGemina
Without going through the whole thread to avoid making any repetitive comments, what I would like to get off my chest is that Zenos doesn't have the depth that is required to have a redemption arc. He never deviates from who or what he is. Not even once throughout his whole story, and he makes mention of that to Alisaie in Garlemald. I think Alisaie represents the voice to a large part of the community feedback on Zenos. She wants him to just go away, and stop obsessing over the WoL and the rematch. He double downs and says the WoL always was, and always will be his sole concern. There is nothing else to him. It was right here that I knew his story was coming to a close in EW, because Alisaie gave him the key to finally get what he wanted. He just had to put two and two together, and boy did he do that.
Believe me, this does not mean I do not like Zenos. I always appreciated him for who he was, what he is, and the purpose he serves to the story. I was always entertained by him because I always wanted to know what he would do next. The contrast from when he is bored out of his mind on his throne in Garlemald, to his devilish excitement and fervor when he finally gets his final contest truly shows how quickly he can transition likewise. You could just feel how much he cherished every single moment of that encounter. And well, we did too. His gift to us. A fight to truly test our limits, with nothing on the line but our own lives. Just so very fantastic, and the end shot of both luminated by the onlooking stars.
Bringing him back would only cheapen this.
Don't worry though. We can honor his memory finding new prey. -
01-22-2022, 01:32 PMnighttimebunnyI understand what you're saying but yes you're missing a lot of discussion we've had in this thread about the numerous plotholes surrounding him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
I don't want to repeat myself again but I found this video on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLjS2ZmTimI
sums up pretty much what me and others have been rehashing on this post lol. There's also many quotes from Yoshi P not in the video that just make this case stronger. -
01-22-2022, 02:20 PMGeminaI understand that completely. I've seen just about every video on Zenos since completing EW, and my comments are not meant to rehash a debate or anything like that. I just wanted to reply to the very first post, while also just giving my general thoughts to support it, while commending the content. I didn't want to be just all, "He's not coming back. Bye now!" xDQuote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
Whether he comes back or not, he is gone for good as far as what's canon for my own character's story. Kind of like Avenger's Endgame to me. I was just like, "Nope. didn't happen." -
01-22-2022, 07:28 PMElysidelphiThank you for your input on this topic. On a slightly different note, I've seen some of your other posts in other threads and your signature always stood out to me. May I ask you where is it from and who says it and in which context? The line in it about the "Warrior of Light" makes me think it's from FFXIV? But I may be wrong, and also I'm not sure on the context. It's an amazing quote and I'd love to know more about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
-
01-23-2022, 01:14 AMGeminaThank you for your kind words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
I suppose the WoL can be applied to at least a couple FF games, but you are correct that it is related to FFXIV, and specifically the SCH's fairy, Lily. I actually wrote the poem myself lol, and what inspired me to write it was to reflect the thoughts of Lily, whom along with her brethren, speak with a poetic tongue in my mind.
Lore-wise, fairies communicate with their SCH through erratic flight patterns and bodily gestures. They do comprehend speech, but are apparently incapable of it themselves (I like to think of them like Tinkerbell, and we just can't hear them). What can be heard comes out muffled and incomprehensible. The poem expresses what Eos would say to the WoL if it could be only one of several lifetimes worth of gratitude.
The picture I chose to illustrate it expresses a sadness felt by both Eos and myself due to lack of interaction we actually get with her in game. I would like SE to take her in a direction that makes her more of a familiar, and less of a pet. Even if their victory stance had the SCH and Lily high five each other, or she allows herself to land and sit in your palm; it would go a really long way to breathe life into our fairies. Hopefully they will do something like that in the near future. -
01-23-2022, 02:06 AMdeadman1204
Zenos was soo boring! A totally uninspired villan. Let him stay dead. By the end, he was totally forgettable.
-
01-23-2022, 03:08 AMnighttimebunnythat's beautiful! thank you for sharing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
-
01-25-2022, 10:57 PMElysidelphiWow, thank you for replying and for explaining! That is so beautiful and well thought-out. The poem is so well-written that I genuinely thought it was a quote from the game, said by a NPC and I was desperate to find out who it was haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
And lovely picture of the fairy, by the way. -
01-26-2022, 04:28 PMPogueX
I think the redemption arc has been way overused. Especially in Japanese anime and manga.
Likewise, Zeno's story has pretty much been told, he wanted an epic fight with the WOL and got it. I wouldn't mind if he came back though, but if he did the writers would have to come up with a creative story. I rather meet new characters though