No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

BRD got more AOE power in ShB. Their AOE isn’t weak at all. You only need to DoT 3-4 mobs, and then you Quick Nock spam while weaving in Rain of Death resets and Apex Arrow (at level 80). You don’t need to DoT every single enemy; just a handful. Then bask in the glory of all the procs you get during Mage’s Ballad from Repertoire, or from Quick Nock spam (at level 74, Enhanced Quick Nock Trait gives you a 30% chance to reset Rain of Death’s cooldown).

A lot of jobs got additional AOE skills in ShB, so it’s not always spamming one button unless you get synced down to a low level. In the higher level dungeons, most jobs have at least a two-tier AOE combo system. I believe DRG gets a 3-tier AOE combo during levels 71~80. And you do kill things more faster when you AOE. You also help out your tank and healer by getting rid of mobs faster so that they don’t have to use up all their resources on a single pull.

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If yoy read my original message and not just my answer to firstnamelastname you'll see that i refer to low level dungeons

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Originally Posted by TheForce

You need to relax. I'm not gonna reply to everything in this response because honestly I just don't care enough. But, I need to address a few things you brought up...so, if the healer is able to get through content and keep everybody reasonably healed up, they are NOT a bad healer. To heck with the rest of your superfluous standards and nitpicks, speaking as a Savage/EX Tank myself, if my healer can keep us healed up and allow us to progress through content, hey are a fine healer. Period. You're really coming off as an elitist right now. Also, speaking as a Tank who literally ALWAYS pulls wall to wall, if a Tank chooses to pull mob by mob, it's not a "snail's pace", stop being disrespectful. Some players prefer to do things differently and know what they can and cannot handle, and if their role gives them the authority to control just that, RESPECT THAT, or you have no business playing with a team. Pulling wall to wall isn't required to clear any content, and that's all that needs to be said.

Some of you guys need to really stop treating this game like some nonsense office setting/work setting. It's so incredibly annoying, all you care about is efficiency, productivity, no mistakes, do things this way and only this way, you must abide by my subjective standards. If that's the poisonous outlook you choose to have, then you need to keep that to yourself, and stop trying to push it onto others online who are just trying to have a fun time playing Final Fantasy. If they are clearing content, they are fine.

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I didn't have a problem with this comment. This was very well said.

The whole dungeon debate over the years is seriously one of the biggest blacks eyes of this game's lifespan imo.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Can you elaborate more on this?
If I hit each monster for 1840 damage individually dont they die faster when hitting 6 monster for 2010?
Because the way I understand your AoE explanation, your overall damage output is higher, because you hit 6x the targets, but you're going to have to hit many more times with your AoE because you're not hitting each mob individually for 2010, or are you?

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Your goal is to put out the highest amount of potency in the same amount of GCDs as possible. You will end up killing 3 mobs faster with AoE than you would with single target DPS, thus saving your tank damage and healer time healing said damage.

Math it this way:

Lets say each mob has 10,000 HP a piece and every potency is equivalent to 1 point of damage.

Over 3 GCDs (a typical combo), you will hit a single mob for 1840 damage. To kill a single mob you would need to hit that mob with said combo roughly 6 times (or 18 GCDs total). Now you have a group of 3 monsters, so thats gonna mean 54 GCDs to kill all 3, give or take a few GCDs.

Now for aoe, you do roughly 670ish damage per mob every 3 GCDs. Thats a 15 GCD combo per mob (or 45 GCDs total) to kill 1 mob (compared to 18 from single target DPS), but since youre hitting all of them at the same time with no fall off in damage, thats all youre expending. In the end, by AoEing with no damage fall off, you do less per mob but you spend less GCDs overall killing them all due to them all being hit simultaneously. The more mobs you add to a group, the more efficient this method of killing becomes, as it you have to keep tacking on another 18 GCDs per mob if you were to single target DPS them.

Now this is a rough idea of how it works, but keep in mind that not everything is gonna be perfect. You may kill 1 or two of hte mobs faster with a lone straggler remaining, where it is more efficient to swap to single target DPS.

TLDR - Its more efficient over the long run to do AoE DPS on 3+ mobs because it saves you GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

In low level content it's pointless, most classes can't even AoE.

In higher level content you ask first; make sure everyone's on the same page so people aren't blowing CD's prematurely, stealing aggro or falling behind.

If a lot of people in this game weren't so socially inept this wouldn't be very complicated.

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i think thats just mmo's in general. just speaking about an issue before hand would've solved a lot of my problems ive had in mmos

I hate to say it, but social ineptitude is pretty spot on.

The amount of times I've entered a dungeon and asked, "Big or small pulls?" or something to that effect, and have gotten zero response -- it's unbelievable. What do you do? There are times I've waited, poked them, badgered them until they said something. Other times I've just run off and pulled big, and oddly, I've never wiped doing this.

But it's part of why I stopped tanking. If healers won't even deign to answer a simple question, why would I put myself under stress for them?

I understand PS4 players have difficulty typing, but can we please take the time to at least type "big" or "small"? That's all I ask!

Oy vey. Rescue me.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

There is a HUGE difference between a "baby" pack and a pack of 20+ mobs. I only get bored when the Tank runs from the start to the first boss before finally stopping. You can grab 10 mobs in the first two rooms of a dungeon. Ten mobs is a baby pack. 30 is a monstrous pull.

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What are you even talking about here? Your initial post I quoted said you got annoyed at tanks pulling large because it takes too long before you can "a few nuclear bombs". I was pointing out those "nuclear bombs" will be significantly weaker if the tank pulls less, thus defeating the whole purpose.

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

I guess I picked a bad time to consider learning/practicing tanking

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Like you were told in Tales. If this is your take away after reading this thread, you aren't ready to tank in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

@the force because I can't quote on phone for some reason: well I asked you how you tank out of genuine curiosity but you just seem like you want to get mad and fight with anyone who disagrees with you lol.
need to chill out for real.

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Okay, poster Jybril, you really need to stop now. The first time you called me out, I agreed with you because yes, I could've been a bit nicer. But now, the guy I responded to literally laced his response with disrespect, condescension, and narcissism. It was a little disgusting to read to be honest. And it's so strange that you're trying to scold me for for fighting with everybody who disagrees with me, when I made it clear that we all have our own views and that as long as we can get through the content reasonably, the playstyle we choose to have is perfectly fine. The other guy is who you should be addressing right now, not me. The aggression was primarily coming from him. This guy comes out of nowhere and tells me that that's wrong and his way of play (damage, dps focused)
is the only "correct" way and that I essentially don't know what I'm talking about. If you continue to ignore these individuals who continue to attack and speak down to those who hold a different opinion, then I'm sorry but I will not take you seriously.

And I apologize for not responding. I didnt even know you said anything. I'm not trying to give you the cold shoulder.

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Originally Posted by AncientCrystal

I didn't have a problem with this comment. This was very well said.

The whole dungeon debate over the years is seriously one of the biggest blacks eyes of this game's lifespan imo.

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Thanks AncientCrystal, appreciate it

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Originally Posted by tinythinker

I guess I picked a bad time to consider learning/practicing tanking

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Nah you didn't. Do you have a Discord? I'd be glad to teach you :-^)

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Okay, poster Jybril, you really need to stop now. The first time you called me out, I agreed with you because yes, I could've been a bit nicer. But now, the guy I responded to literally laced his response with disrespect, condescension, and narcissism. It was a little disgusting to read to be honest. And it's so strange that you're trying to scold me for for fighting with everybody who disagrees with me, when I made it clear that we all have our own views and that as long as we can get through the content reasonably, the playstyle we choose to have is perfectly fine. The other guy is who you should be addressing right now, not me. The aggression was primarily coming from him. This guy comes out of nowhere and tells me that that's wrong and his way of play (damage, dps focused)
is the only "correct" way and that I essentially don't know what I'm talking about. If you continue to ignore these individuals who continue to attack and speak down to those who hold a different opinion, then I'm sorry but I will not take you seriously.

And I apologize for not responding. I didnt even know you said anything. I'm not trying to give you the cold shoulder.

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I didn't scold you or mean to at least. I think everyone needs to calm down lol.

I was actually curious about how you tank and sadly I still didn't get a response.
I'm with tinythinker too, I have tank anxiety and wanted to see how you did it.
Pretty much stopped tanking a lot when this WHM forced rescued me into mobs lol.
I can't be asked to read a bunch of long-winded posts from every other poster though.
Some people are really getting hysterical though.
Sorry if you thought I was attacking you. :/

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

If yoy read my original message and not just my answer to firstnamelastname you'll see that i refer to low level dungeons

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Even so, BRD has good AOE even in the lower levels—they get Quick Nock at level 18. The only jobs that don’t have AOE prior to level ~30 are DRG (Doom Spike is level 40) and NIN (Death Blossom is level 38, but they do get Katon every 20 seconds at level 35). Most others have AOE at low levels, and a lot of the newer jobs (RDM/SAM/DNC) AOE is really powerful at the lower levels. If you aren’t AOEing, then you are hurting your party. It doesn’t matter if it’s “boring”—you’re hurting your team. And you will always kill things faster and do more damage when you’re doing AOE at 3+ targets (2+ for some jobs, like DNC and BRD) than your 1-2-3 combo on one.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Even so, BRD has good AOE even in the lower levels—they get Quick Nock at level 18. The only jobs that don’t have AOE prior to level ~30 are DRG (Doom Spike is level 40) and NIN (Death Blossom is level 38, but they do get Katon every 20 seconds at level 35). Most others have AOE at low levels, and a lot of the newer jobs (RDM/SAM/DNC) AOE is really powerful at the lower levels. If you aren’t AOEing, then you are hurting your party. It doesn’t matter if it’s “boring”—you’re hurting your team. And you will always kill things faster and do more damage when you’re doing AOE at 3+ targets (2+ for some jobs, like DNC and BRD) than your 1-2-3 combo on one.

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MNK manages an AoE (only every third GCD) of 110 potency (effectively 121) and SAM 100 potency (effectively 110) as early as level 26, but SAM's AoE would require 4 targets to surpass single-target combat at that level. They sadly fall far behind their Ranged analogs. At level 30, for instance, MCH will be dealing a relative 216 ppgcd by spamming a single skill.

On the general topic:

The sad thing is it's still better to AoE, even for a job with such a seemingly wasteful AoE because the advantage in killing a single target early is scarcely worth the faint disadvantage to killing all targets later with how little damage any individual enemy deals.

Back in early ARR, there were indeed other strategies that could be optimal over pulling everything and simply mowing them down with AoE spams. Sleeps, tactical application of DoTs, and focus targets all played into the mix. But that's just not the case today.

If one wishes to have back those older options, it should come as request for the gameplay by which to allow for those things again, rather than simply excusing poor performance.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Even so, BRD has good AOE even in the lower levels—they get Quick Nock at level 18. The only jobs that don’t have AOE prior to level ~30 are DRG (Doom Spike is level 40) and NIN (Death Blossom is level 38, but they do get Katon every 20 seconds at level 35). Most others have AOE at low levels, and a lot of the newer jobs (RDM/SAM/DNC) AOE is really powerful at the lower levels. If you aren’t AOEing, then you are hurting your party. It doesn’t matter if it’s “boring”—you’re hurting your team. And you will always kill things faster and do more damage when you’re doing AOE at 3+ targets (2+ for some jobs, like DNC and BRD) than your 1-2-3 combo on one.

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With all respect, i fully disagree. Bard have aoe but without applying dot on all targets its not optimized and ninja waste a lot of dps if when using doton the tank pull the mobs away from it. By the way, if you are playing a boring gameplay just to do dungeons faster, it means to me you Don't have fun at all in playing dungeons so you should maybe stop doing dungeons, at least low level ones. Considering your player card you Don't need xp anymore, so why playing just for speed if you Don't take fun ?

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

With all respect, i fully disagree. Bard have aoe but without applying dot on all targets its not optimized and ninja waste a lot of dps if when using doton the tank pull the mobs away from it. By the way, if you are playing a boring gameplay just to do dungeons faster, it means to me you Don't have fun at all in playing dungeons so you should maybe stop doing dungeons, at least low level ones. Considering your player card you Don't need xp anymore, so why playing just for speed if you Don't take fun ?

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Mate you sorta realized your thinking error there. Not everyone enjoys standing in a dungeon and looking at low pixelated walls for three hours at a time. Some people enjoy doing content fast, especially the boring ass low level - where your gameplay often times literally consists of 1-2-1-2-1-2-1 and so forth.

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

With all respect, i fully disagree. Bard have aoe but without applying dot on all targets its not optimized and ninja waste a lot of dps if when using doton the tank pull the mobs away from it. By the way, if you are playing a boring gameplay just to do dungeons faster, it means to me you Don't have fun at all in playing dungeons so you should maybe stop doing dungeons, at least low level ones. Considering your player card you Don't need xp anymore, so why playing just for speed if you Don't take fun ?

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You do not, and have never, needed to DoT every mob in a pull when it comes to BRD. The suggested number of mobs to DoT ranges from 3 to 5 in most instances—because otherwise you’d be wasting GCDs DoTing and constantly refreshing said DoTs as opposed to actually AOEing and utilizing your procs. You upkeep DoTs on 3 or so mobs for procs, and then you AOE your heart out. You do not DoT all 10 mobs in a pack of 10. That is how you optimally AOE on BRD.

And I really hate to be the bearer of bad news to you, but I still have several jobs to level to 80 (as well as plenty of alts in various levels from ~30 to mid-70s). And sometimes I get thrown in a low level dungeon via Leveling Roulette. I’m not one to bail on my party because I get an undesired roulette draw, so I stay. With all due respect, you have no place to tell me what I find fun and what I don’t find fun. I like AOEing. I like seeing things melt. And I like things to be quick and efficient. I have done all the dungeons in this game countless times in my 4 years of playing on half a dozen different characters. Why would I stand around and spam 1-2-3 on one mob in a pack of 10 when I can AOE and watch them absolutely melt? Do you not know how satisfying it is to see that? It’s certainly not boring.

So, with all due respect, stop telling me what I find fun and what I don’t. It just makes you come off as incredibly presumptuous and rude.

When it comes to pulls it is down to the tank to sort the pace, but NOT the pace they just want. One that fits in with the party, you should never pull so much the healer is overwhelmed, or so little that it slows the run down.

On the healers side it is down to them to let the tank know if it is too much for them so they know to pull less, or let them know they are ok to pull more.

On the dps side it is their job to do damage, if they want larger pulls then ask in chat n if the tank n healer r cool with it then yeah, but dps should not be pulling except if it has been agreed as ok by the party.

I used to ask the healer if they were good with big pulls, but 99% of the time i either got no response, or people getting on my case telling me to just get on with it. So now instead what i do is check the healers gear upon first getting into the dungeon and base my initial pulls off that then ajust if needed, below i have listed a few examples.

1. 90% of expert roulettes when i check the healers are very well geared so i pull large, in others they are not so since they are fresh 80's still gearing to i start at half normal size see how it goes then pull larger next time if my health did not drop alot.

2. I was in a levelling dungeon a couple of days ago, i looked at the healers gear, some pieces 20 levels lower than the dungeon some level appropriate, so i looked at there class list card. They didn't have any 80's just a few classes at different stages of levelling. Since i could tell they were a new player from this i started small, did a couple of single packs, no issues. So i moved onto a double pack that came to 6 mobs, again no issues but my health dropped to about 2/3 of full during. So i decided that was the right spot since it sped up the dungeon without overwhelming the healer.

3. Another levelling dungeon, healer was not the best so i was taking it slowly with the pulls. One of the dps clearly did not like that and ninja pulled, i grabbed the mobs off him but it was more than the healer could manage and we wiped. After we rez i tell the dps that i am pulling based off the healers gear and not to pull more and cause wipes, which earns me a thank you from the healer while the ninja puller says nothing. So we carry on i'm pulling steady so as not to overwhelm the healer and this dps pulls again, i pull them off him, this time we manage but barely my health was pretty low by the end. We kicked that dps got a new one, carried on with steady pulls and finished no problem.

Way I see it the group sets the pace, if the group wants wall-to-wall pulls either leave or try, same goes for smaller pulls, medium pulls, no pulls, rp pulls, walking pulls, face pulls. If a divide is is brought up get that trigger finger ready and be the first to initiate a vote kick.

Normally when I am tanking or doing anything via DF if the group does something I do not find enjoyable I personally just leave.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Way I see it the group sets the pace, if the group wants wall-to-wall pulls either leave or try, same goes for smaller pulls, medium pulls, no pulls, rp pulls, walking pulls, face pulls. If a divide is is brought up get that trigger finger ready and be the first to initiate a vote kick.

Normally when I am tanking or doing anything via DF if the group does something I do not find enjoyable I personally just leave.

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I don't agree with that. You shouldn't have to leave and take a 30 minute penalty. They shouldn't be doing stupid things like RP pulls, walking pulls, they should be kicked. They are in Duty Finder something like that should be for a premade. As for smaller pulls, and medium pulls, why would you even leave? The 30 minute timer plus a new queue will be longer than just putting up with it. Either get kicked or just roll your eyes, at least as a dps. Leaving as a dps means 30 minutes plus another 10-20 for queue time, PLUS another 20 for the dungeon. Not worth it AT ALL.

The speed of the dungeon is indeed a precedent set by the tank. However, if you have DPS & healers in your group who care geared well enough to be able to handle big pulls you are simply not playing your role correctly. I have put up with this type of tank before (who disregards everyone else) but I also have been known to just simply take the penalty and leave. Just sayin, you have a very unpopular opinion.

I don't ... understand why people can't communicate.

Tanks should ask is big or smalls pulls ok.
Healers should speak up if something is too much.
DPS should speak up if they don't have AoEs (many people don't know other classes skills).

It's not that hard! If you're on PS4, take some time beforehand and make a macro or something.

If no one speaks up, and it's a pace you don't like, then deal with it or leave. /shrug

If you don't communicate, no one will know. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I don't agree with that. You shouldn't have to leave and take a 30 minute penalty. They shouldn't be doing stupid things like RP pulls, walking pulls, they should be kicked. They are in Duty Finder something like that should be for a premade. As for smaller pulls, and medium pulls, why would you even leave? The 30 minute timer plus a new queue will be longer than just putting up with it. Either get kicked or just roll your eyes, at least as a dps. Leaving as a dps means 30 minutes plus another 10-20 for queue time, PLUS another 20 for the dungeon. Not worth it AT ALL.

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I mean that falls into the camp of try. For me personally as a dps I see it more of a waste to take part in a style of play I do not find enjoyable so I often just leave.

Granted I have also been on the other spectrum where we removed someone for not being a Lala. End of the day majority sets the pace, granted another option is to do something to get voted kicked, or even ask to be removed.

I know many will not agree with my opinion, but yeah I am an overall well-being type person.

Granted the other ones were jokes but I would not be surprised if they were a thing.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

DPS should speak up if they don't have AoEs (many people don't know other classes skills).

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ALL dps have some form of AOE. If you're in a dungeon where your job doesn't have access to their AOE yet, that's fine. Run your normal rotation.

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

Mate you sorta realized your thinking error there. Not everyone enjoys standing in a dungeon and looking at low pixelated walls for three hours at a time. Some people enjoy doing content fast, especially the boring ass low level - where your gameplay often times literally consists of 1-2-1-2-1-2-1 and so forth.

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if you dislike low level dungeon, just Don't tag them i mean no one is forcing you to tag for dungeon you Don't like, especialy when you have achieve your max level.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You do not, and have never, needed to DoT every mob in a pull when it comes to BRD. The suggested number of mobs to DoT ranges from 3 to 5 in most instances—because otherwise you’d be wasting GCDs DoTing and constantly refreshing said DoTs as opposed to actually AOEing and utilizing your procs. You upkeep DoTs on 3 or so mobs for procs, and then you AOE your heart out. You do not DoT all 10 mobs in a pack of 10. That is how you optimally AOE on BRD.

And I really hate to be the bearer of bad news to you, but I still have several jobs to level to 80 (as well as plenty of alts in various levels from ~30 to mid-70s). And sometimes I get thrown in a low level dungeon via Leveling Roulette. I’m not one to bail on my party because I get an undesired roulette draw, so I stay. With all due respect, you have no place to tell me what I find fun and what I don’t find fun. I like AOEing. I like seeing things melt. And I like things to be quick and efficient. I have done all the dungeons in this game countless times in my 4 years of playing on half a dozen different characters. Why would I stand around and spam 1-2-3 on one mob in a pack of 10 when I can AOE and watch them absolutely melt? Do you not know how satisfying it is to see that? It’s certainly not boring.

So, with all due respect, stop telling me what I find fun and what I don’t. It just makes you come off as incredibly presumptuous and rude.

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Well you're the one who said "it doesn't matter if it's boring" in your former message so i've understood that you felt it boring, so it wasn't a presumtion to me, but maybe i misunderstood you. As for the rude side, i Don't know if i were but your message was not bad either, i Believe. By the way, i wanted to discuss a point of view different from the majority for sure, but after 4 hears of playing, that what i Believe. I'm not here to hate anyone.

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

Well you're the one who said "it doesn't matter if it's boring" in your former message so i've understood that you felt it boring, so it wasn't a presumtion to me, but maybe i misunderstood you. As for the rude side, i Don't know if i were but your message was not bad either, i Believe. By the way, i wanted to discuss a point of view different from the majority for sure, but after 4 hears of playing, that what i Believe. I'm not here to hate anyone.

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No, that was in reference to what you said. You were the one who called AOEing boring, despite AOE being far more than just one button spam for a lot of jobs since this expansion launched.

Thanks for the high-quality bait. GG fam GG

The simplest way to solve all of this, is to simply ask at the start "Are we going to do multi-pulls or not?". This way you know right from the start if there's going to be multi-pulls or not and can adjust accordingly. Or, make some friends in-game and form a group that knows exactly how to do things and then you won't have half the trouble.

The 90 minute joke aside, there is only a problem with the big pulls if the tank doesn't use his cooldowns efficiently or the dps AoE damage is too low. Most of the time it's the tank using his cooldowns all at once at the start of the fight and then after everything is down by 2/3 his health drops like a rock and I can hardly keep him alive. This happens way too often though...

Maybe SE should add an extra option to the DF for dungeons that you tick if you want big pulls (regardless of roles you are queuing) and then we'll get some stats on which method is more popular and see which queue takes longer to fill.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Maybe SE should add an extra option to the DF for dungeons that you tick if you want big pulls (regardless of roles you are queuing) and then we'll get some stats on which method is more popular and see which queue takes longer to fill.

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People will just use whichever is faster and then insist on doing it the way they want to do it (whichever way that is). Unless there's a game mechanic that physically prevents large pulls, large pulls will happen because they're the fastest way through the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

People will just use whichever is faster and then insist on doing it the way they want to do it (whichever way that is). Unless there's a game mechanic that physically prevents large pulls, large pulls will happen because they're the fastest way through the dungeon.

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Not always. There are a few dungeons that have an overabundance of large monsters that cause issues with reliably hitting more than 2-3 at a time due to the size of their ring on the ground. Also some others where they are prone to spamming AOEs resulting in more time being spent avoiding damage than actually attacking.

As for the whole dps AoE too low or tank cooldowns being the only issue. There is another though it may just happen when tanking as a PLD where healers seem to think the PLD is supposed to handle healing so they can just stand in the middle of the mob and spam Holy which makes everything immune to stun after like 2 casts...

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Not always. There are a few dungeons that have an overabundance of large monsters that cause issues with reliably hitting more than 2-3 at a time due to the size of their ring on the ground. Also some others where they are prone to spamming AOEs resulting in more time being spent avoiding damage than actually attacking.

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Not so much, many recent dungeons have had huge mobs that were problematic for stacking (eg The Burn giant worms) or packs that AoE ceaselessly (eg last pull in Skalla), and they certainly didn't stop people. In the past the community has generally been pretty consistent at figuring out large but viable long pulls even before trash gates were a thing. Back in ARR you'd find different roulette groups pulling WP and AK in very similar and likely even completely identical steps despite the complete lack of gates there. Players simply gated themselves at the rate of which a random healer could reasonably be expected to cope with. Aurum Vale was further evidence of this. People didn't pull big because of any AoEs or positioning issues, they didn't pull big because Tanks and Healers couldn't cope with more than couple of packs at a time. There was also the later method of locking trash packs out of boss rooms, but I won't muddy the waters with that one =(

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

As for the whole dps AoE too low or tank cooldowns being the only issue. There is another though it may just happen when tanking as a PLD where healers seem to think the PLD is supposed to handle healing so they can just stand in the middle of the mob and spam Holy which makes everything immune to stun after like 2 casts...

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Standing in the middle of the mob pack and spamming Holy is kind of how a WHM functions in a dungeon :rolleyes:

Spamming Holy doesn't cause one to be unable to heal. Rather that's down to a lack of attentiveness and talent. Please don't confuse the two things. Thx <3

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Maybe SE should add an extra option to the DF for dungeons that you tick if you want big pulls (regardless of roles you are queuing) and then we'll get some stats on which method is more popular and see which queue takes longer to fill.

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To be honnest i would take the nobigpulls queue even if it took longer time to fill. The fun i'd get would be woth the waiting

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

To be honnest i would take the nobigpulls queue even if it took longer time to fill. The fun i'd get would be woth the waiting

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There's always PF. You might even be able to find 3 other people who similarly like playing unnecessarily slow.

Or, you could level up Trusts, since you'd be playing in the same way as the bots do.

As long as I can heal the party without unreasonable stress then I do not mind big pulls. It can be fun to run new things with a group that is all new, but since I don't have friends to play with I am at the mercy of the random party finder. I'd prefer running with vets than just not being able to run at all.

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Originally Posted by Zebyxus

The simplest way to solve all of this, is to simply ask at the start "Are we going to do multi-pulls or not?". This way you know right from the start if there's going to be multi-pulls or not and can adjust accordingly.

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I used to ask that back when I was sort of new to tanking. Eventually it dawned on me that there are way more people capable of handling big pulls than they let on. Too often people underestimate themselves and others in the DF. Pulling whichever amount you like without asking works 99% of the time and that 1% of the time you can just take the blame and adjust. Easy.

As tank I just pull as much as I can/want.
When I die or we wipe I say that it was my fault, no matter what the healer did.
Then I do smaller pulls and look on the healer and give some advice if it's needed.

There are good and bad tanks too, forgetting to use defencive cooldowns, or using your skillset at all is one way to wipe the group on a big pull, this goes for healers too. I always do big pulls, but only if i have gear that matches the dungeon im running, sometimes one step below, but never further you can only stress a healer so much. But yes, as the person above me said, i pull big, if i wipe i talk it over with the healer, checking what went wrong and do smaller pulls from there on, maybe advancing into bigger pulls if the healer seems capable of handling it.

It tickles me when some of them see I'm an AST and they turn into the slowest tank in the world, or are indecisive with their pulls. Just go for it man, I got enough regens to save Private Ryan.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

It tickles me when some of them see I'm an AST and they turn into the slowest tank in the world, or are indecisive with their pulls. Just go for it man, I got enough regens to save Private Ryan.

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I have a feeling AST is going to be dealing with that the entire expansion. They started out on the weaker side and unless SE suddenly makes them OP, no amount of adjustments will remove that stigma.