DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

". . .[S]o I called them out on it."

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It is nice that you acknowledged that you could have gone about it differently, just wondering what lead you to call the person out in such a way?

I am not going to pretend to know the reason for that players performance, as an officer in a FC that dealt with those rare cases of a few bad apples messing around with someone due to their performance, which was partly my fault since at the time I did not know that you could hide your logs on FFLogs so when I uploaded data of to look over ways to improve our play since we happen to carry our friends who have certain limitations that prevent them from performing at what many would call a suitable level. Either way one of our members got harassed since they tried to join a PF and lead to someone drama since those that harnessed our member did not know the context behind the gear they had yet the damage they were performing.

tldr: Was it really necessary to call that person out in that way? Could you have gotten your point across regarding incorrect statement without going down such a road?

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Originally Posted by Awha

I agree that a parser is a tool like any other...

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Actually, while I'm generally on the side of no official parsers - there are enough ego contests as it is and those that really care will boot up fflogs like they always have - an opt-in parser isn't a bad idea. Something like the duty recorder feature, where the party is notified of it and can choose whether or not to agree, would be pretty handy.

I don't really blame Yoshi for his decision, though.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Parsers as in the tool, or as in other who see what you are logging. Let's talk about it. I'm being serious too. Elaborate on this comment, and let's have a civil discussion about it. Can you explain more on what you mean? And if you bring in the numbers that were seen on what you logged, I'll be happy to engage in that line of discussion too about what you may think could be wrong about what was quoted. Or if you want to drop it, I'll drop it too. It's up to you, but for now, you have my full, undivided attention.

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both KaivaC.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I think most parsers dont know what they are talking about.

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I think this is a poorly worded comment and adds nothing to the conversation. In addition, I also question whether or not you yourself know what you're talking about.

I have for years played final fantasy,if because you pinpoint ffxiv you think you are a special snowflake, then I am sorry to tell you that it is false, even if you are a mass of special snowflakes,"I HAVE" countless of times proven players wrong, & no salvage & ex fights are not a good example if you are trying to counter argue deep rooted mechanics, often I dont speak about situational content, I am generalizing & if I care about something I will use Julyan Frypan to bash my point throught.In other words, numbers does in no way let you numerize persons knowledge or skills toward a win or a lost.

Neither does grammar it seems.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I have for years played final fantasy,if because you pinpoint ffxiv you think you are special a snowflake, then I am sorry to tell you that it is false, even if you are a mass of special snowflakes,"I HAVE" countless of times proven players wrong, & no salvage & ex fights are not a good example if you are trying to counter argue deep rooted mechanics, often I dont speak about situational content, I am generalizing & if I care about something I will use Julyan Frypan to bash my point throught.In other words, numbers does in no way let you numerize persons knowledge or skills toward a win or a lost.

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... I can only think of one response to this because holy hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JohGniYph-c

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Me on my end i'll say this, keep up the 4k ppl! If you parse low but dodge better,then clearly...I think you are better even with lower grade gears.Knowledge & skills\over cash shops & \over parsers &\over single class 24/7 play"At that point if you have both its the best of course... but!
.

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Huh... I don't really see your point there. A good dps will have high numbers AND be able to dodge. If he can't his dps will just sink badly and that won't make it a good performance. You need knowledge and skills to have a good parse.

I would even add that the really good dps can, and will, know what skill the boss will use beforehand based on the GCD they are on their rotation.


But why are you talking about the cash shop suddenly? It's not like there's an item that say "Pay $10 now, and gain a +20% for the whole duration of the duty!" (Don't do it, SE...). All of the cash shop is cosmetic, and have nothing to do with numbers. Liking/disliking it has nothing to do on this topic.

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over single class 24/7 play

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Sorry, can you elaborate on this part? I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I have for years played final fantasy,if because you pinpoint ffxiv you think you are special a snowflake, then I am sorry to tell you that it is false, even if you are a mass of special snowflakes,"I HAVE" countless of times proven players wrong, & no salvage & ex fights are not a good example if you are trying to counter argue deep rooted mechanics, often I dont speak about situational content, I am generalizing & if I care about something I will use Julyan Frypan to bash my point throught.In other words, numbers does in no way let you numerize persons knowledge or skills toward a win or a lost.

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As I promised, I will keep this civil. I only ask you provide me the same courtesy. Now, you said 'both' earlier. I cannot speak of other people because while a lot of people do know exactly how to read FFLOGs, there are others who do not know how to read it properly and tend to provide incorrect information as they do not know how to interpret the incredible amount of information that is there. Granted, with the thread title, even if I could change it, it doesn't account for the multitude of things that affect a player's personal DPS in battle.

That being said, the parse itself does give a pretty good general ballpark of where you stand on a particular run. Parsing is pretty much pointless outside from Savage and Ex fights, because it is that content where it matters the absolute most. It's a good tool for measuring where you are in dungeon runs and 24 mans, yes, but the bread-and-butter of ACT/FFLOGs would be in the high end fights, where every bit of DPS counts. Are these fights only about DPS? Hell no, because of tanking, mechanics, healing, and optimization. Regardless of this being a Final Fantasy game, this is still an MMO, and for raiders in particular, the endgame would be these high-end fights.

Onto the topic of you saying that parsers don't know what they're talking about - the program reads the information that is provided by the servers. Give or take maybe a small, negligible margin of error, ACT is actually incredibly accurate to the point that it will tell you exactly what you did, how you did it, etc. I would like to know how you figure that the program itself is wrong, though. While I agree that executing mechanics properly and dodging where appropriate is key to winning fights, DPSing is very important, especially with enrage checks.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

... I can only think of one response to this because holy hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JohGniYph-c

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So because I tell you that you are full of elitism you claim everyone is dumber for reading what I typed? Again, Bourne_Endeavor, you have no clue, that was a childish reply,worst than mine

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I think this is a poorly worded comment and adds nothing to the conversation. In addition, I also question whether or not you yourself know what you're talking about.

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You also have no clue Dual

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Originally Posted by Ruf

...
In other words, numbers does in no way let you numerize persons knowledge or skills toward a win or a lost.

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A parsing program.
Let's take the most common one I've heard about, the one that can be uploaded to a site that stores and shows them...


It is more than just an overlay that shows how much damage a person is doing over a certain amount of time.


Those parser logs can be used to see exactly what skill everyone is pressing, exactly what attacks they are getting hit by, exactly which buffs/debuffs they are under, if they're hitting positionals... Possibly even location during those fights.

Someone knowledgable with those logs can look at them, and see exactly what someone is doing, compare it to what has been mathematically proven to be most efficient, and then see exactly why those dps numbers are what they are.

They could even provide advice to said players to help them improve their gameplay.


They are so much more than just, assigning a number to someone's skill.
Unfortunatly, not as many people know how to properly use the tools at their disposal.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

So because I tell you that you are full of elitism you claim everyone is dumber for reading what I typed? Again, Bourne_Endeavor, you have no clue, that was a childish reply,worst than mine

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Honestly I would say you're the elitist here. You're the one who pulled the "I have more expertise in Final Fantasy than you XIV-only snowflakes, therefore my opinion means more." card.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

You also have no clue Dual

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That was ruf to hear but I'll work through it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

As I promised, I will keep this civil. I only ask you provide me the same courtesy. Now, you said 'both' earlier. I cannot speak of other people because while a lot of people do know exactly how to read FFLOGs, there are others who do not know how to read it properly

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Read it Properly? I dont want to read it at all, take your logs & go home with it.Next I will claim CHEATERS!!! ___> /point

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Read it Properly? I dont want to read it at all, take your logs & go home with it.

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Okay, so since we’ve established that you don’t even want to have a conversation with the individuals in this thread, how about you just kindly bow out of it? Forum threads are for discussion, but you clearly don’t want to have any form of that with a response like this.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

& no salvage & ex fights are not a good example if you are trying to counter argue deep rooted mechanics, often I dont speak about situational content, I am generalizing & if I care about something I will use Julyan Frypan to bash my point throught.In other words, numbers does in no way let you numerize persons knowledge or skills toward a win or a lost.

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If savage content and ex fights are not a good example, what are we left with? Dungeon runs and Eureka...?

@TaranTatsuuchi is absolutely right when she says that parser provide much more info than numbers when you take the time to analyze.


Some anti-parsers on this topic have good arguments, but you, on the other hand, don't seem to even know what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Read it Properly? I dont want to read it at all, take your logs & go home with it.Next I will claim CHEATERS!!! ___> /point

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Fair enough. A shame we couldn't have a conversation, but it is what it is.

There reason for no parsers is easy to see. Only people think parsers are usefull will never notice.

So why dont use some middle way, which benefit both sides. My idea is very simpel: Give the leader the option to turn on/off ingame parsers when selecting the Savage content. Yes, ONLY SAVAGE.

Why not DF ? Because there are too many morons use it to haress and belittle people like some people often do even on the forums. Most people dont care about there *numbers* and wanna have fun.

Dont wanna get bad people in DF ? Make friends then do it with them. Dont you have friends ? That's.... your... problem.

( I have never heard complains about my DPS. But i suck as SAM for my feeling ).

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Read it Properly? I dont want to read it at all, take your logs & go home with it.Next I will claim CHEATERS!!! ___> /point

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So...

I have never used a parser.
I have never looked up a parse on that site.
(I have searched my character name out of curiosity a couple times, but I don't show up, so no one's uploaded a parse with my character in it.)



I don't know how to properly read those logs.
I don't particularly care to learn how to read them at this time.

But, I have educated myself about their capabilities and usage.



I was originally neutral on the subject of parsers.
I had no interest in them, but didn't have any reservations about their use either.

After seeing some discussions about parsers on the forums, I kept seeing the arguments for both sides.
And while both sides had their disagreeable people, I saw that many of the arguments against them were less sound than the arguments for them.

So, basically the anti parser crowd changed my mind to be in favor of parsing.



I took the oppertunity to learn about a discussion, even though it didn't particularly interest me.

Your response on the other hand, just shows a blantant unwillingness to even attempt to make that effort.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

So because I tell you that you are full of elitism you claim everyone is dumber for reading what I typed? Again, Bourne_Endeavor, you have no clue, that was a childish reply,worst than mine

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The word elitism is over used by far. It kinda lost it's meaning now, because of how people like you approach the word and how you use it. It's that bad. You must be telling how everyone who climbs the ladder for a good job position irl, from the bottom must be a elitist because they try their best. The people in this game who tries their best and actually provides help in farm/clear groups with good attitude in how to play the game, they must be elitist. One more thing, all those people who helped you cleared content must been elitist too. Why not tell them? They will mostlikely laugh at you then ask you for never ask them again. That my friend, is how bad it sounds like.

So my wife as a Warrior tank that could hit 3.5 - 4k in 4.2 was going really good then, Great I will let her know when she wakes ups, She always feels like she isn't doing really good.
We took the last 3 weeks off and just finished the main story this yesterday. I however don't raid, but our discord has numbers posted after most raids by one of the DPS who lives and dies by the numbers.
2 of our DD in our FC often hit 6 to 7k in 4.2, I can't stand the person who posts the number even if my wife says it's helped her optimize her rotation, I play for fun and don't care if I am perfect. If people want prefections they should stop playing and start working on bots.

I know she spent 3+ hours working on a dummy to get the train cheese down. So I'm not sure how a parsers would help that. She just worked on mussle memory.

As for IG parsers I'm for them if they are for savage content only and have a vote all yes to enable, like the video record fuction.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

As for IG parsers I'm for them if they are for savage content only and have a vote all yes to enable, like the video record fuction.

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I would be fine with this only function in savage and ex primals. If people do know they are doing low performance, whos fault is that? Mine? Yours? Nope, it's only the person behind the character. Problem with a parser in only 2 content types, is that peopel who go in there think they do good, but find out they are not that good, they have to know from somewhere how they performance is, before doing said content.

If an ingame dps meter would have any kind of restrictions to what ACT already does, we'd just keep using ACT.

You know, I've been trying to be nice and civil, but the "Special" Group is just getting more and more ridiculous.

Hey, I don't like Elitism more than anybody else when it is shoved down my throat by more elite players, but the people on the opposite end (Lunaxia, Ruf, etc) are just making themselves look more stupid with each thing they post.


Guys, really. Just stop. Even somebody like me can step back and admit that parsing DOES have its uses and it helps players understand a fight, and gauge their own performance relative to others' (something the base game doesn't let you do very easily) and if you're trying to do Savage Raids/Ex Primals, you kind of do need to be at the top of your game.

If you can't handle Parsing and receiving criticism for putting out low DPS and putting the whole group in danger, then I'm sorry, but you don't belong in a savage raid group. Sorry, you don't.

But you know what? There's no shame in this. There's nothing wrong with not being cut out for the elite high-end content. Nothing at all wrong with that. I freely admit that I, myself, do not belong in Savage Raids. But yet you don't see me in here going on and on and on attacking players who are.

As long as Savage Raiders don't show up in my Normal/Duty Finder content with condescending/elite attitudes, then I'm fine with those kinds of people. I can coexist as long as they are willing to accept that "normals" just don't play at that level.

So why don't you guys just show yourself out the door, because really, you are just making yourselves look worse with each post you make, and you're doing a great job in making yourselves look like fools. The "parsers" (raiders) are trying to be civil, and they're using logic, and clear cohesive language to explain things, and your posts are oftentimes riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes and are just off-the-wall insane troll logic and it really doesn't look good for you. It is clear that YOU (not they) are the ones fanning the flames because you just can't let it go.

Not doing any personal attacks here or anything but just simply telling you what it looks like from an outside perspective.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

You

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Seen more low performancers talk shit to others than the ones who actually do well. That's my own personal experience.

@Ruf I'm confused.... when did high dps ever equal failing mechanics? Failure to do mechanics in Savage+ means you die and a dead dps = no dps. You can't be top dps with out having extensive knowledge of a fight. Your posts just reek of perpetual ignorance.

To give my two cents about this topic and also ingore the war that was going on for pages.

My view on this:

I dont think that doing 4k DPS is being garbage tier.

I am an average to good player. I am not top but I at least know a bit about my job. (Last dummy was around 4.6k or something but I am also quite away from BiS and dont use any materia or items like that) I know that I am not the best and that as a summoner I could probably do much more and I did read up openers and try to follow it but I just cant handle the opener the way it should be so I am kinda landing in the average part of it. I try my best but there is simply a skill level that I cant reach.

I think its fine for dungeons and older extreme primals if you are at least decent on your job but I for once would not do recent primals if they need high DPS or even savage. I know that I am not the greatest so I stay out of content that needs high DPS to clear. Because otherwise I would just fail my group and hinder them which would be bad.

So being 4k is not garbage but one should ask themselves if they are truly ready for savage and for doing such hard group content. Raiding is simply not for everyone and people should not put the group down because they want to do something that is not on their skill level.

The only ones that I feel are garbage are those that are not even trying to play their job. Ice mages, the one monk that I had in my old FC who only used one combo (and not even the whole one) and did not know about the basics of their jobs.

Honestly if everyone would at least do around 4k and maybe understand the basics of their jobs we would be much further as a community, because those 4k players are not the problem (at least in normal content) but those that truly dont try it or dont care at all are.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Seen more low performancers talk shit to others than the ones who actually do well. That's my own personal experience.

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The door swings both ways, I've seen the snobby elite with their Seattle Space Needle Nose up in the air complaining about the "filthy casuals" but then you know what, I've seen stuff like Ruf and Lunaxia on the other end too so yeah, you're not wrong by any means. Both are equally obnoxious.

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Originally Posted by Awha

tldr: Was it really necessary to call that person out in that way? Could you have gotten your point across regarding incorrect statement without going down such a road?

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(Dunno if you raid or not, so I'm writing as if you don't normally do savage. If I am wrong feel free to skip the first half of this post).

So as I said before I feel like there are three types of bad DPS>
1) Clear party bad DPS. DPS when you're new to the fight and have not optimized. You're just pushing buttons and are just doing DPS while mainly focusing on mechanics first.

2) Don't know your rotation bad DPS.

3) OH NO I died - bad DPS

My policy regarding clear parties is: getting the kill is the most important thing. So if you need to give up on some uptime for a mechanic you should do so. Your DPS might be "bad" as a result but there aren't any real DPS checks this tier and so if your DPS is "bad" because you did mechanics in a clear party, that's not a bad thing. IF that makes sense? Having bad DPS in a clear party is not ideal, but it's better than wiping constantly because you don't know how to do mechanics. What's important is your attitude regarding this DPS: Will you try to improve your DPS next time now that you've cleared?

Now the thing is that in this game your DPS is basically irrelevant in every piece of content outside 4 savage fights and ultimate. You can just press random buttons and go about your day. I know some raiders who'd say that with the current difficulty level of savage, your DPS in savage is also irrelevant. But they're also the sort of people who know what they're doing. But they and every decent raider I've met will agree that the moment you go into savage, it's stops being about you and more about the team because this is a team game. (people who go into savage to get fed cards or just have their co healer heal everything are not decent raiders IMO).

Savage fights are designed that you can clear them with any party comp (and often people make it easier by avoiding dupes or sticking to a traditional @ tank 2 healer 2 melee 1 ranged 1 caster comp)

SO as a DPS you have one basic job, which is to do DPS. In case this was not made clear enough earlier, 4k DPS might not mean you're garbage but it's definitely bad. Even if you're on a low personal DPS job like RDM or Ninja. 4K DPS was avg - below avg in deltascape depending on your job. To say that it's fine to do 4k DPS is just wrong.

Now the reason for this 4k dps can be a number of things. You could have died multiple times or you could still be using last tier's gear. In which case the obvious solution is to fix it. I'm not talking about 4k DPS at the start of this tier but currently, in this month when the tier's been out for a while. And of course, this does not mean that you can't get better. If you just cleared a fight or something and did 4K dps that makes sense. It's still bad, mind you, but the important thing is that you got the clear. And can improve next time.

That DRG was doing 2.3k DPS with one single death. At that point you're not just bad but you're an active detriment to a team. They're literally carrying your butt to the finish line. The other DRG in that parse died 5-6 times or something iirc and he still did more DPS than that poster. On top of that he said something as silly as "at the start of every tier we all start at the bottom" which is just straight up wrong. Rotations have been figured out since the start of SB. Not to mention you still should be doing at least average DPS for your job where it might decrease or increase based on mechanics that you see. Please see my above point bout "clear party" DPS.

That DRG was doing 2.3k. That's the DPS I did in heavensward. A full year and a 100 iLvL's ago. I originally was going to ask him if he even raided since what he said shows off his clear ignorance of the matter. But seeing his DPS on a fight where he died just once??? During this last month too? That guy isn't just doing mechanics, he straight up is just standing there doing nothing half the time. Not only that but he has not bothered to even look up any basic information about his job.

Now as I said, if this was a primal or something, I'd laugh, b-list him and move on. But in savage you have people who DID spend time practicing their rotations, buying food and pots and looking up fight information. In pugs they most likely went through numerous, terrible learning parties and clear parties before they came to that one. That DRG was not only ignorant but he also wasted the time and effort of 7 other people who had put in the work to clear content. Now sure o5S is an easy fight, but it's also about the principle of the thing: "Have you done the basic minimum to support your team?"

I have constantly seen guys like him when I'm pugging. And I have hated not having ACT every minute of it because I can't even leave a group because I don't know who's the problem. So if im the party leader, I can only disband a perfectly good party because I don't know what people are doing aside from the obvious "this person is dying repeatedly to the same mechanic" Sometimes I might have low DPS in which case, if it was a clear party, I should go back and join a learning party. But since I don't have a parser it's impossible to tell aside from
"well am I doing my rotation correctly and keeping uptime on the boss while doing mechanics?" "Yes?" "well with this gear im doing at least average damage so I doubt I'm the problem here"

If you wanna do savage content you should to know how to do your job. If you mess up that's perfectly fine, so long as you just try to improve next time. If he just did 4k dps or something like that I'd probably have left him alone, aside from saying he was wrong in what he said. But 2.3k?? THAT is "garbage tier DPS" He was very obviously saying such nonsense to justify why he was so terrible and he no doubt acts like this in-game as well. That's why I called him out on it. His attitude is terrible, his DPS is worse and he's clearly put in exactly 0 effort. He wasted people's time in game with that dps of his and I even checked to see if he'd just DC'd for most of the fight but that wasn't the case either. There's no grey area here. If he doesn't have the time to even learn a basic rotation then he shouldn't be doing savage in the first place. I don't mean this in a bad way. There's so much content to do in this game that's not savage. Dungeons, crafting, gathering, 24 mans, role-play, side quests, etc.

Perhaps it was in bad taste but I hope this explains why I called him out and why I'm not apologizing for it.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

I hate this character limit so much

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You can edit your post to break the 1,000 character limit. Just post something like (edit incoming.....) and then edit your post. That's what we do.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

The door swings both ways, I've seen the snobby elite with their Seattle Space Needle Nose up in the air complaining about the "filthy casuals" but then you know what, I've seen stuff like Ruf and Lunaxia on the other end too so yeah, you're not wrong by any means. Both are equally obnoxious.

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Not gonna disagree with that, I just find people who underperform and expect so much from others, then talk shit like the others doing low damage. It's like being toxic twice as much right there. I'm not defending people who talk shit to others for no reason, but please don't tell me it's fine a tank out damage a dps.

Yeah it’s just a pain to do that every time. I wrote that so I could edit it. Thanks for the help though.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

You can edit your post to break the 1,000 character limit. Just post something like (edit incoming.....) and then edit your post. That's what we do.

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Yeah it’s just a pain to do that every time. I wrote that so I could edit it. Thanks for the help though.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Not gonna disagree with that, I just find people who underperform and expect so much from others, then talk shit like the others doing low damage. It's like being toxic twice as much right there. I'm not defending people who talk shit to others for no reason, but please don't tell me it's fine a tank out damage a dps.

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Depends, though. If the tank is in BiS and the DPS is only in 330s or something, well...

That's why I don't like putting labels on people. There's a lot of factors.

Tbf 330 is enough to outdps tanks, granted you'd need to be playing at a pretty high skill level. However 315-320 is impossible to outdps high skill tank damage as any class.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Depends, though. If the tank is in BiS and the DPS is only in 330s or something, well...

That's why I don't like putting labels on people. There's a lot of factors.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Tbf 330 is enough to outdps tanks, granted you'd need to be playing at a pretty high skill level. However 315-320 is impossible to outdps high skill tank damage as any class.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing that the other person meant underperforming in savage. In which case both of your arguments are not really relevant as you'd never do the current savage fights in 330 or 320 gear.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I have for years played final fantasy,if because you pinpoint ffxiv you think you are a special snowflake, then I am sorry to tell you that it is false, even if you are a mass of special snowflakes,"I HAVE" countless of times proven players wrong, & no salvage & ex fights are not a good example if you are trying to counter argue deep rooted mechanics, often I dont speak about situational content, I am generalizing & if I care about something I will use Julyan Frypan to bash my point throught.In other words, numbers does in no way let you numerize persons knowledge or skills toward a win or a lost.

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Do you even realize how incoherent you sound?

And when you talk about "years" of experience, do you mean you have XI experience too? Because this is a completely different game.

All this mumbo jumbo of "garbage dps" "optimal party", etc. 90% of players you come across in pf that demand "optimal parties" or "up time" strats, etc aren't even good enough to fully benefit from their own demands.

You do mechanics and you do decent damage and you'll clear 99% of the. "Savage content in this game.

You'll eventually learn that the people in pf requiring world first party comps and strats are the trapiest traps to ever trap.

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

All this mumbo jumbo of "garbage dps" "optimal party", etc. 90% of players you come across in pf that demand "optimal parties" or "up time" strats, etc aren't even good enough to fully benefit from their own demands.

You do mechanics and you do decent damage and you'll clear 99% of the. "Savage content in this game.

You'll eventually learn that the people in pf requiring world first party comps and strats are the trapiest traps to ever trap.

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This !

the more "perfect" they ask you to be, the more they do stupid error on easy mechanics because they need to be carried away by an optimal meta party setup.