The issue nobody wants to address

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

True, but they are the ones in the position to nudge the community in a different direction. Falling back on dps checks for almost everything is the easy way out.

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Missed this earlier :p

Yes they are in the position to nudge the community, but what's it gonna cost them? If they can't introduce interesting mechanics because most of the players are hopeless, what can they really do?

They have to think about maintaining a steady amount of subs and income to keep the game running and the content coming for us every 3 or so months. Sure DPS checks might be the easy way out, but currently it's their only alternative and safe difficulty gate. Because they know the good players have the skill to do it on release, the less skilful players will eventually do it due to better gear, and when it gets to the hopeless players they know the better players and over geared players can help them clear the content as a fail safe to keep those players subs going.

If so many players weren't so incompetent we'd have much more mechanic based content that's fun and challenging to do. Sadly SE have to cater to the majority, which is greatly holding the game back from what it could really be.

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Originally Posted by MentheusDreyar

Missed this earlier :p

Yes they are in the position to nudge the community, but what's it gonna cost them? Sadly SE have to cater to the majority, which is greatly holding the game back from what it could really be.

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Indeed they do, but at the same time, if they can't continue to keep people interested. ie, they are bored because everything is the same. But at the same time, they do also seem to have a bit of integrity with their product, look at MSQ gate to HW for example. They aren't simply in it to make the most possible money, they want to make the most possible money with the product they want to sell. So, one can hope.
But in the end, they are the only ones in the position to make the change. Do I think they would have to do it gradually over a few expacs, yes. Not saying they could just start introducing all mechanics heavy content in 3.1. They would essentially have to groom the player base. But then, isn't content supposed to get more challenging the further you get into a game?

I think the over reliance on dps checks is bad for the genre in the long run, but don't know that it will, or can, change.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I think the over reliance on dps checks is bad for the genre in the long run, but don't know that it will, or can, change.

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Dps checks themself aren't that bad, but when they are combined with big influx of stats on gear it creates issues. With better gear content should get easier, but it shouldn't turn older content into faceroll. It's great that it slows down end game during progression - but the second these players return to previous content they are massively overgeared and huge part of the game turns into mindless farm, which is also problematic for new players, especially tanks.

Just simple nerf to gear could increase difficulty significantly. If the gear was nerfed more and more players would have to seek improvement rather than waiting another week for their "free" gear upgrade.

i did a neverreap yesterday wher ei coulda sworn i did like 50% of the dps (im a drk)

Warning: Wall of Text incoming ^^;

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Originally Posted by Ryel

If you enter a 4 man dungeon and a tank is wearing full Dex gear 20-40 levels under the dungeon with no enmity stance on and is using their DPS combo on the boss non-stop without drawing aggro or using cool-downs to mitigate, i imagine you might pull them aside and be like "Hey buddy, I'm not trying to ruin your fun here but i think you might be doing it wrong" i assure you their response of "Well i'm just having fun" wouldn't be all that amusing (okay actually it kinda would, but that isn't the point) and I would hope you would take a few seconds to help the poor guy out.

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I.... Did you just compare a paper tank to a mediocre-but-passing-grade DD? The DD equivalent of your example would be a caster in crafter gear on the left and random accessories on the right, who (in the case of THM/BLM) only casts ice spells over and over or (in case of an ACN/SMN) resorts to Ruin spam with Garuda on Sic. I'm not overly familiar with those classes -- and I'd be the first to tell you I'm a horrible caster -- but even I would notice a DPS like that.

Of course, the standard for DF runs I've been in hasn't been to point out to either said tank or damage dealer what they might want to do to improve (unless it's a 'simple' mistake like a tank not using Flash, or a healer insisting on pre-casting Regen before pulls, or damage dealers attacking the wrong targets), but rather to berate said player for being rubbish while proceeding to vote kick or vote abandon. Especially if the group has wiped directly or indirectly due to this.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

Then that analogy doesn't work. If you make a party finder saying casuals for fun only. And 2 people join in trying to force you to be good. I just don't think that's a realistic scenario. This is a video game, basketball is a game. You have one goal. Win. If you are so lazy in self improving that you're willing to hold back other people from their goals, I dunno what to tell you.

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Well... To me it seems more like back in P.E. in school, or if the work arranges an inofficial sporting event. Your team is chosen through lottery, you have no idea of knowing who you're going to end up with. Some people in your class/department are good at the sport, some play it every now and then, and some barely know the rules. If the ones good at the sport try to force the others in their team to play at their level, they're out of luck in two out of those three cases.

Of course, in the case of P.E., you don't really have a choice in whether you want to participate or not, and once you're put in a team you're stuck there for the rest of that class -- you'll just have to grit your teeth and try your best not to yell at those 'idiots' unable to handle the ball (or whatever other thing you're chasing in that particular team sport) because if the teacher/referee hears about it you're going to be in trouble.

In FFXIV, you do have the option to leave your team if you can't handle it -- or vote to kick out a team member who is being disruptive. It still doesn't give anyone the right to expect the random players they end up with to be good, or to yell at them or call them scrubs if they aren't.

I'm all for personal parsers being implemented -- that way you get your numbers and information on what numbers you should be able to put out at your (item) level would be just as available as it is now. I probably wouldn't use one myself other than occasionally, but I wouldn't care if someone else did (I don't really care if they do now either, unless they use that information to harass/berate someone else).
Party-wide parsers I'm a little bit more hesitant about, since you get information about others which does open up more possibilities for abuse. But on the other hand, such abuse would still be reportable.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.

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Not at all, but it all depends on how said criticism is presented. And most everyone has issues with strangers trying to point out 'flaws'. It's one thing if it's someone you know, but if a stranger walks up to you and starts pointing out how you could really improve on your manner of dress, you'd feel insulted. It's not really comparable, I know, since DF-ed people are strangers you've been plunked together with into a group to solve a problem. But to many people it still rubs the same sense of 'what I do is none of your business'.
(Also being pressured into performing in a certain manner is not at all the same thing as feeling pressured at work or in a competition -- last I checked, FFXIV wasn't a competition ^_~)

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

It's not about forcing you to try harder, it's about giving you more information so you know what's working and what's not.

At the end of the day all it is is information. Sometimes it won't help, sometimes it will. But having more information about your performance is never harmful.

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Well, in the end, a parser only gives you a number. It's up to the player to experiment with different rotations to find the most efficient one, and unless we're talking about a proportionally minor difference (like an increase from 1100 to 1150 dps) it's generally possible to tell which rotation is more efficient relative to how complicated it is to perform.

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Originally Posted by MentheusDreyar

As a DPS good damage indicates you are playing your job well or are on the right track at the very least

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Um... Not necessarily. I've read in one of the many threads on these forums about this one guy who refused to do the mechanics in... one of the Alex floors, I think A4 (normal), because he was too occupied whacking those legs to death to 'keep his dps numbers up', and then criticizing one of the other DDs who had to handle pretty much all the mechanics (and thereby giving up a large chunk of their dps numbers), accusing them of causing the wipe cos their dps was too low... So, um, no. High dps output does not always indicate you're a good player.

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Originally Posted by Anyan

At the end of a dungeon or raid, instead of going "yay we did it!" I went "what were my numbers?" It wasn't about us (players) against them (the enemy) anymore, it was my numbers against everyone else's, including my friends. I became competitive in a way that now makes me very uncomfortable, and I didn't have as much fun anymore.

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Which is my major concern with the whole thing, too. I know of one or two players in my proximity who use parsers, and at times I've out of curiosity asked them what my numbers are at. Not because I'm competitive -- I'm pretty much as far from competitive as one can be, preferring not to MT in instances with more than one tank simply because it means I can debuff the boss more and thus assist the team by reducing the enemy's damage output and increasing the other tanks' damage (plus that of any ninjas present) -- but because I like hearing if I'm doing 'good enough'. I know I'm far from perfect, and I know I could never pull off those 11k Fell Cleave crits that I've seen screenshots of, but that doesn't mean I'm not envious of the high numbers the damage dealing jobs pull ^^;
But even so it worries me a bit how much easier those numbers would be to fall back on when it came to judging 'good performance' if they were so readily available in-game to everyone. And how many people who are more competitive than me would stop feeling satisfaction when the boss fell, instead worrying about their numbers and how they were in relation to those of the other team members... =/

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

I.... Did you just compare a paper tank to a mediocre-but-passing-grade DD? The DD equivalent of your example would be a caster in crafter gear on the left and random accessories on the right, who (in the case of THM/BLM) only casts ice spells over and over or (in case of an ACN/SMN) resorts to Ruin spam with Garuda on Sic. I'm not overly familiar with those classes -- and I'd be the first to tell you I'm a horrible caster -- but even I would notice a DPS like that.

Of course, the standard for DF runs I've been in hasn't been to point out to either said tank or damage dealer what they might want to do to improve (unless it's a 'simple' mistake like a tank not using Flash, or a healer insisting on pre-casting Regen before pulls, or damage dealers attacking the wrong targets), but rather to berate said player for being rubbish while proceeding to vote kick or vote abandon. Especially if the group has wiped directly or indirectly due to this.

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No, and this is the misunderstanding that you and many other posters keep having.

Nobody really cares about slightly low but passing grade DPS, it's a non-issue and is completely irrelevant to the topic. What is an issue is when a DPS doesn't meet the very, very low bar that 4 man content sets. This bar however is raised in proportion to your ilvl from a player community standpoint, nobody is expecting the ilvl 150 DRG to do the exact same or even comparable DPS to the ilvl 210 MNK that they get paired with in Neverreap, they do however expect the MNK to do more damage than the DRG, and the tank, and the healer.

If the case is that the full party is 40+ ilvls over the dungeon that they are queued into, then logic follows that the performance level of all of the players should be that much higher, as like i said before the bar is now raised.

What the example you quoted but apparently didn't read the full context of in the rest of it's post, or in the posts preceding and following it is that the level of transparency and accountability for a tank or a healer is very different from a DPS and the community is okay with this for some reason.

Just like the "paper tanks" you sometimes come across in duties, there have been plenty of posts and comments on these forums of entering duty finder for level 59/60 dungeons and ending up with DRGs sporting VIT or DEX gear or BRDs wearing STR gear because... reasons? These are visible examples that you can simply point to and be like "Hey dude y'know STR does nothing for BRD right? Your damage is going to be pretty low" of course all they have to say is "prove it" and without an in game parser the conversation ends there.

The reality however is that far more often you end up with a DPS wearing the correct gear but performing an incorrect rotation (if they're using any at all) this often leads to cases like the 200 DPS BRD someone posted earlier, an example of a player who was performing far below the bar for their level.

Sometimes you can catch this by watching their actions if you're paying that close attention but even if you did there is no system for accountability in play for players who are far below where they should be for the gear and content they are in.

A tank or a healer is required to perform at level for the content they queue into, if they don't content simply will not be cleared and once again we as a community have zero issues removing a nonperforming tank or a healer, in fact it's one of those things that's pretty easy to see and evaluate.

Not holding hate? Players are dying? Can't pop cooldowns? The answer is simple, you replace them. But what about the DPS doing less damage than the healer? The one in full ilvl 190 gear pressing two buttons and basically cruising through the dungeon on the backs of the other players. Why do they get a free ride?

For a Tank your responsibility is to hold threat, position mobs, mitigate damage, and provide DPS.
For a Healer your responsibility is to keep the party alive (within reason), mitigate damage, and provide DPS.
For a Damage Dealer your responsibility is to provide DPS, and class specific utility.

Any player in a party not meeting those requirements is likely to be removed from the duty, but only 2/3 of those are held accountable by the playerbase because of the in game systems that make it possible.

Why is this?

Not a single poster has yet to answer that question in full without dancing around the subject.


So let me make this point clear again:

Low but passable DPS is never an issue but does leave room for improvement, but it generally doesn't matter unless you're doing something with a DPS check like endgame, where 4 man content is concerned most players aren't likely to care.

What is an issue however, is the vast number of players who aren't even playing up to par for the content they are queuing into.

This thread just keeps reminding me of why I don't tend to respect DPS. So many of them see it as a "no responsibility" role, where any slack on their end will be picked up by the other DPS, tank, and healer. A role where if they don't bother to do their role, nobody will notice or care. That if the content is beatable with just the healer and tank's DPS they don't need to do anything.

"So long as the content was beaten, who cares?"

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

This thread just keeps reminding me of why I don't tend to respect DPS. So many of them see it as a "no responsibility" role, where any slack on their end will be picked up by the other DPS, tank, and healer. A role where if they don't bother to do their role, nobody will notice or care. That if the content is beatable with just the healer and tank's DPS they don't need to do anything.

"So long as the content was beaten, who cares?"

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Dps checks and enrage timers are the only reason we even need them? Now if they could only do that part...

Today when I went into A1 they would only kill 2 Alarums, and when I tried to dps the rest of them as healer, they would get hit by everything they could. 5 wipes later, and a caster using lb when one oppressor at 1% while the other was at 13% and wiping at 0%. See ya.

The only way this is ever going to be fixed is by placing the responsibility of survivability solely on the player and to stop forcing such extreme synergy.

WoW never had these problems because of this. If you died, you died and it was your fault end of story.

Another answer is to stop giving away high end gear to every scrub out there.

High end gear should be earned through challenges and better gear earned through harder challenges. Not just "I grinded the same 3 dungeons 100 times... IM AWESOME... Now I get to do it all again in 3.1 and be AWESOMER!:

Casuals DONT need good gear and giving them good gear gets them into places they don't belong.

In most games your gear is a sign of how good at the game you are because that gear is difficult to obtain.

This is how I feel atm about responsibility of each role

http://i.imgur.com/9lH8wD1.jpg

To provide a little legend...

1) Tank has to tank even if it's killing him inside.
2) Healer has to heal, dpsing might be disliked.
3) And this guy... this guy expects you to do stuff for him.

Except the whole point of the dungeons is to kill stuff (and that advances the story or gets you loot)... and who's supposed to be doing the stuff killing - oh yeah that's the dps...

Square Enix and Producer/Director Naoki Yoshida, please shut down the Duty Finder for one week. Just one week. That's all I ask.

By the way..this thread... eh, is a pretty interesting read.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

Square Enix and Producer/Director Naoki Yoshida, please shut down the Duty Finder for one week. Just one week. That's all I ask.

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Please no I don't want to fate grind for days in order to level my BRD I prefer to do dungeons and get some gear which fits my characters level (while I could easily craft me some I rather sell it to get me more money :o)

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Originally Posted by Natashio

Square Enix and Producer/Director Naoki Yoshida, please shut down the Duty Finder for one week. Just one week. That's all I ask.

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That would be really interesting social experiment and as bonus players would use Party Finder more. The question is how many of them would return to DF after it.

Wrong topic.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

That would be really interesting social experiment and as bonus players would use Party Finder more. The question is how many of them would return to DF after it.

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Sometimes I just want to sit down, log in, queue for DREX and log off. Not go through the nonsense that is Party Finder for easy content and wait for it to fill up. So yeah, many will return to DF due to all content being more than doable on it and there's no doubt about that. Convenience trumps all, there is a reason the Dungeon Finder system is now a common thing in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

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That's the thing we are discussing here. Some people don't care, that's kinda predictable. The issue is that healers and tanks who don't care are eyesore, they are in the limelight, while dps role is allowed to don't care in the shadows.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Sometimes I just want to sit down, log in, queue for DREX and log off. Not go through the nonsense that is Party Finder for easy content and wait for it to fill up. So yeah, many will return to DF due to all content being more than doable on it and there's no doubt about that. Convenience trumps all, there is a reason the Dungeon Finder system is now a common thing in MMOs.

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That's the thing I am interested in - convenience. There is also reason why so many tanks and healers do not play with randoms - out of convenience.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Well... To me it seems more like back in P.E. in school, or if the work arranges an inofficial sporting event. Your team is chosen through lottery, you have no idea of knowing who you're going to end up with. Some people in your class/department are good at the sport, some play it every now and then, and some barely know the rules. If the ones good at the sport try to force the others in their team to play at their level, they're out of luck in two out of those three cases.

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Stop with these analogies, please. When you queue up for something in this game, you're making a choice. No one is forcing you to participate like a required P.E class in school, and of course you can't expect people from your work to be halfway competent at something that has nothing to do with their line of work. You can't use the "barely know the rules" excuse because you don't start this game at level 60 (I mean, you can, but it's not valid). It's not like P.E or a work sporting event where you might or might not have previous experience with a sport. You've been playing this game for many hours to get to level 60, so it can't possibly be too much for me to hope that you're able to carry your own weight and have some understanding of how your skills work whenever you decide to participate in a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

The only way this is ever going to be fixed is by placing the responsibility of survivability solely on the player and to stop forcing such extreme synergy.

WoW never had these problems because of this. If you died, you died and it was your fault end of story.

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WoW also hasd so many required addons that told you where to stand and what to press, the exact order and time to stand there and press buttons. People played the addond vs the game (and no this isn't an exageration i used to watch WoW vids daily and saw their screen HUd 0_0) Also
WoW was a more solo based mmo, due to the franchise it based on. Where final fantasy has been teambased play where each character had to help if most of the character died then the boss would kill you.

People should stop complaining about other people's playstyle and just go with it. As long as you clear the content, it's more than enough, at least for me.

And I hate PF because I have social anxiety and having to talk and ask for someone to accept me into their party does not feel good at all.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

Another answer is to stop giving away high end gear to every scrub out there.

High end gear should be earned through challenges and better gear earned through harder challenges. Not just "I grinded the same 3 dungeons 100 times... IM AWESOME... Now I get to do it all again in 3.1 and be AWESOMER!:

Casuals DONT need good gear and giving them good gear gets them into places they don't belong.

In most games your gear is a sign of how good at the game you are because that gear is difficult to obtain.

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My god, that's a lot of hate. Well, casuals belongs wherever they want. Whether or not you want to play with them is a complete different story, and that's why you can form a party with people you trust. Stop giving casual rewards and content and SQEX will have losses on the largest part of this community.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

People should stop complaining about other people's playstyle and just go with it. As long as you clear the content, it's more than enough, at least for me.

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So you are saying it is fine if someone goes semi AFK and just auto attacks the mobs while the rest of the party do all the effort, extra in fact to clear the content? What if it's the tank who does that? Or the healer? If DPS are allowed to play half assed then the other roles should have a free pass to do so also.

Yeah, that would go down well, and pretty much know who the first one to complain would be.

Seriously, players should go into party content with the mindset of if everyone plays how they are playing, will we be able to clear? Truthfully, if the whole party played at the same level as that one lazy "special snowflake". No one would even pass the first trash in a dungeon.

Why can't so many players stop being so selfish? It's selfish not to put in any effort when everyone else is. It's selfish to think only of yourself when the whole party needs to contribute to allow success.

A parser, in a way, will work as tough love to those who think they perform when they don't. They will either run crying to mommy or think, yeah, I ain't as good as I thought, time to improve so I don't keep getting removed from parties. Which, IMO, is a win for the community.

IF you know you are going into DF and theres a very high chance you will get a competent party in there, for a start, tanks would be more willing to tank in DF.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

So you are saying it is fine if someone goes semi AFK and just autop attacks the mobs while the rest of the party do all the effort, added in fact to clear the content? What if it's the tank who does that? Or the healer? If DPS are allowed to play half assed then the other roles should have a free pass to do so also.

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Going semi-afk isn't playing at all. What I'm saying is that if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone, there's no need to pick on them or label them bad just because they have place for improvement, the same goes for healers and tanks.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Going semi-afk isn't playing at all. What I'm saying is that if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone, there's no need to pick on them or label them bad just because they have place for improvement, the same goes for healers and tanks.

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Thing is no one cares if content is getting cleared. The problems are when for true examples. DPS 1 doing 1300-1400 DPS on expert boss. DPS 2 doing 270-280 DPS. Yet when given friendly advice on how to improve totally ignores. If I had dropped down to the same level as DPS 2 we would not have cleared. How is that fair?

Aery me on PLD, Nidhogg fight when he goes away and adds spawn, DPS could not meet the DPS check before we wiped with Nidhoggs ultimate, BLM was using Blizz 3 and Fire 3 with upto 10 seconds pause between each cast. Tried to give advice, met with silence, tried 3 times the fight, with advice after each wipe. Ended up kicking and getting a replacement. How is that fair? He wasted time of 3 other people, did not know his most basic rotation and was unwilling to accept advice.

They basically turned around and implied fuuufuuu you, you can do everything I'm a special snowflake.

You could say that is what the kick function is for. I agree, but I don't want to have to kick players from party, all they have to be is open to advice if they are struggling. But without evidence they cannot refute there is nothing you can do if they are not willing to listen.

Think this is the 3rd or 4th time I've asked this question that no anti-parser person has yet answered.

Why shouldn't DPS be as accountable for bad play as much as tanks and healers are?

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

People should stop complaining about other people's playstyle and just go with it. As long as you clear the content, it's more than enough, at least for me.

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That's the thing unfair to the tanks and healers right here. Quite often poor tanks and healers get kicked or tormented by the rest of the team - tormented means ninja pulling etc.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

So you are saying it is fine if someone goes semi AFK and just auto attacks the mobs while the rest of the party do all the effort, extra in fact to clear the content? What if it's the tank who does that? Or the healer? If DPS are allowed to play half assed then the other roles should have a free pass to do so also.

Yeah, that would go down well, and pretty much know who the first one to complain would be.

Seriously, players should go into party content with the mindset of if everyone plays how they are playing, will we be able to clear? Truthfully, if the whole party played at the same level as that one lazy "special snowflake". No one would even pass the first trash in a dungeon.

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That's exactly my approach to things.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Going semi-afk isn't playing at all. What I'm saying is that if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone, there's no need to pick on them or label them bad just because they have place for improvement, the same goes for healers and tanks.

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It would be nice if the same went for the healers and tanks. Seriously, nobody wants dps to be at top of their rotations. They should just be required to put in similar performance as tanks and healers.

Like I said "if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone" is okay, but that was not the case with your example. And yes, that's what the kick is for, because that person is probably a troll, since dungeons are doable with very minimum requirements.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Like I said "if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone" is okay, but that was not the case with your example. And yes, that's what the kick is for, because that person is probably a troll, since dungeons are doable with very minimum requirements.

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Even with parser players would still be able to play without embarassing anyone. Right know you get immunity to being exposed for your insufficient contribution. Not cool. I wonder how many players would be willing to do that if the whole team would see how much work their put in, and how much of they work they leave to others.

Salut tous le monde

Hello there.

We talked about parser, we talked about gated content. What about history of used abilities? Let's say last ten used abilities - displayed for the whole party to see. There are no numbers, so dps does not matter. There are only "rotations". With a little bit of knowledge it would be possible to see when somebody needs few pointers about their job.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

What I'm saying is that if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone, there's no need to pick on them or label them bad just because they have place for improvement, the same goes for healers and tanks.

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And that's not what we are saying at all, no one expects a perfect rotation in anything short of progression raiding. What we do expect however is a player to have at least a basic understanding of their Job's rotation and mechanics and/or skills used to tank/heal, especially by the time they hit 50, which far too many player's don't. As well as put in some god damn effort when you sign up for duties with other players. And it's these players which are causing people to fail at completing content.

If the rest of the party have to perform at 150% to make up for someone else's performance we have every right to call them out on it. It's not fair on us to have to pick up their slack and give them a free pass just because we can't prove they are under performing in the case of DPS players.

And to make matters worse with the limitation on vote kicking, we usually end up being penalized in addition to having our time wasted because players don't have a clue how to play or cba to put in any effort. Is any of that fair to us? No it's not... If tanks and healer's have to always play well, the same should apply to all the DPS players out there too. There's no reason they should go without any responsibility in their performance when the game requires them to put in effort to actually get through content. As thing's obviously don't die with poor DPS.

The funny thing is people think the terrible dps are just poor uniformed souls who just need to be forced to see how bad they are. Parsers would magically solve the problems of terrible people in duty finder.

The reality: almost nobody you see that's a bad dps tank or healer with a bad attitude cares what you think about their rotation or parse numbers. They are using the duty finder and mashing to victory because they know there is little to no back blow to not doing your job.

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Like I said "if someone isn't on top of their rotations or DPS, but can still pull enough to clear the content without embarassing anyone" is okay, but that was not the case with your example. And yes, that's what the kick is for, because that person is probably a troll, since dungeons are doable with very minimum requirements.

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This thread is about those people, and responses like your original one. You may not realise just how many are out there. It's pretty crazy how many people don't even do half of what would be considered max dps for their class. This is what the thread is about, and how it's taboo to ask the to contribute in any meaninful way.

For about the millionth time in this thread, people aren't saying you have to be playing at world first level, even say 70% of maximum would be fine, and thats pretty easy.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The funny thing is people think the terrible dps are just poor uniformed souls who just need to be forced to see how bad they are. Parsers would magically solve the problems of terrible people in duty finder.

The reality: almost nobody you see that's a bad dps tank or healer with a bad attitude cares what you think about their rotation or parse numbers. They are using the duty finder and mashing to victory because they know there is little to no back blow to not doing your job.

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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The reality: there are a lot of different people who play the game. Is was nice of you to add the "with a bad attitude" par though. If some one is holding back the group and has a bad attitude, that is why the kick function is there. So in what way are they relevant to the topic. As a parser applies to those people, it just confirms for you that they were, and lets them know as well.

Another Reality: Not all people that react negatively when they are confronted with their bad play know they are playing poorly, or at they very least how poorly. There are a lot of differenet people and personalities playing.

Also there is not a single console player who understands the context of parsers, that is using one. I'll give you one guess why. That is a rather large portion of the population don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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How? That's always the argument, but it's never based on anything more than "well just my opinion" or "I met someone who was mean once."

Parsers aren't unexplored territory. Jerks use them in jerkish ways, but they don't make people who aren't jerks into jerks. It just doesn't happen. It's a completely unfounded fear.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The funny thing is people think the terrible dps are just poor uniformed souls who just need to be forced to see how bad they are. Parsers would magically solve the problems of terrible people in duty finder.

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Nobody is saying this and if someone does, they would be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The reality: almost nobody you see that's a bad dps tank or healer with a bad attitude cares what you think about their rotation or parse numbers. They are using the duty finder and mashing to victory because they know there is little to no back blow to not doing your job.

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This is half true, there are just as many players who simply do not know as there are players who simply do not care, however having your performance laid out in the open and accountable will lead to less instances of both.

Players who do not know are likely to find out and learn, and players who do not care are likely to get kicked if they choose not to perform the same we do now with any tank or healer in a similar situation.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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Performance feedback has been a part of MMO culture since MMORPGs first came out, theres no need for hypotheticals or opinions of possibilities when a decades worth of MMOs have already told us exactly how it will play out. The players who are likely to harass others will do so anyway as many of them already are and they will simply get reported, that's what GM's are for.

In all likelihood as long as content remains faceroll what you'll see instead of an increase of toxicity is the same apathy many players approach 4 man content with anyway, and you'll have just as many players saying "well we cleared so who cares?" in the face of their low numbers. However the tool will be available to those who cannot access one now (console players) and it will give parties the ability to hold all roles equally accountable for their contributions, something that is far from the case now.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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No you know what actually promotes toxicity? Player's expecting to put in no effort and not bothering to learn how to play and causing problems for the rest of us. If they want to play like that they can F&%* off to a single player game where they can't ruin the experience of other players.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Snip.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Snip.

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+90k

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Well... To me it seems more like back in P.E. in school, or if the work arranges an inofficial sporting event. Your team is chosen through lottery, you have no idea of knowing who you're going to end up with. Some people in your class/department are good at the sport, some play it every now and then, and some barely know the rules. If the ones good at the sport try to force the others in their team to play at their level, they're out of luck in two out of those three cases.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Stop with these analogies, please. When you queue up for something in this game, you're making a choice. No one is forcing you to participate like a required P.E class in school, and of course you can't expect people from your work to be halfway competent at something that has nothing to do with their line of work. You can't use the "barely know the rules" excuse because you don't start this game at level 60 (I mean, you can, but it's not valid). It's not like P.E or a work sporting event where you might or might not have previous experience with a sport. You've been playing this game for many hours to get to level 60, so it can't possibly be too much for me to hope that you're able to carry your own weight and have some understanding of how your skills work whenever you decide to participate in a dungeon.

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Well, we could also humor him a bit. So, everything is done, and you are on your team playing soccer, for examples sake. Everyone takes the field...

...one fellow on your team starts shooting at your own net, or kicking the ball out of bounds intentionally...

...you say "Umm, hey, we are supposed to take the ball to that net down there and score."...

...to which one of the other players yells "Hey! don't pick on him! He can play how he wants! Elitest scum!"...

...and the person kicking the ball responds "Yeah, I'm the one carrying you anyway!"...

That is what the thread is actually about.

Now, fast forward to level 60, wait, no I meant a lot, like maybe a couple years of playing soccer on the weekend, and that player is now joining drop in groups down at the field, and still shooting on his own net, or kicking it out of bounds. Repeat the above conversation, did it just get even more ridiculous?

Or once again Malevictions X's and O's img. I would like that to be in the OP as well as at the top of each page to give people reference.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

How? That's always the argument.

It just doesn't happen.

It's a completely unfounded fear.

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Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves.

Like I said throwing numbers at people does nothing, all your saying is. "These numbers mean things do them better!", and the imediate response is "Those numbers give me proof to show them they are bad!" Why would a player who is willing to improve would even need this as evidence the only reasoning behind people wanting parsers is in all reality the free reign to shame people over their numbers. I have no qualms with the usefullness of the tool for people who actually use them to calculate their rotations and all that stuff but the general player isn't going to do that. Not everyone cares to be as bleeding edge as you think they want to be.

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves.

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So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

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I don't disagree with this but the point was never about fixing the entire playerbase as I've mentioned before, allowing players to have some form of accountability in the DF on DPS jobs doesnt instantly make everyone a better DPS or force them to care.

However it might mitigate some of what we're seeing and will definitely help those who are interested in seeing their numbers but are unable to.

Like console players.

No offense but if you're trying to provide a point saying how the addition of parsers would breed toxicity, saying the equivalent of "Some guy in my FC said someone in Ex roulette was being mean" isn't going to make your point.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

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^Pretty much this. It's a common hypothetical, not a common occurrence.

This video's pretty old (and about WoW) but this is what far more commonly happens with parsers (spoiler: nobody cares about people's dps, let alone harasses them): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas