PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

You can edit everything into one post, just FYI

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I'm new to the forum and it said that it was too long so IDK i just split the post

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

Finally! god bless you and all the smart people on this treat that knows what the hell we are talking about, I've been following this entire post for 2 days and god this "Phoenica" person was getting on my nerves this ladies and gentleman is the current true state of this situation and the reason PALADIN is the current focus on the matter.

Honestly if anyone keep claiming other wise they are trying to hard to be so wrong about something that doesn't have any other way around. It is what it is.

I think people claiming otherwise aren't even pallys and are just hardly trying to protect their class of choice because they know right now is so perfect and has it's confy spot on every raid group right "phoenica"?

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Ok, so you agree with the guy that agrees with me that PLD shouldn't do more DPS as long as it has this "safety net" even if this safety net is not needed, cool.

So in your opinion I'm just claiming PLD shouldn't get buffed because I'm "hardly" trying to protect my class of choice?

Errrm, English Lesson: "hardly" means I am "not trying". Hardly is like barely. It is "almost there" but it isn't.

Another thing: I'm a good player and already have a static and I can join any static as any class because I can prove I'm good. I don't need to cry on the forums to buff my class when it's a case of gitgud. So I don't need to protect my class of choice from getting any raid spots.

As a tank, I play whatever tank is needed for my group to progress. Which is why I was a PLD for the later half of 2.5. I played PLD long enough to know that its stronger CDs are enough safety to warrant why it shouldn't do as much DPS. But here is the funny thing, PLD does good DPS if it really wants to. If you can't.... gitgud.

On a last remark, my new class of choice is "Summoner". An overpowered PLD doesn't threaten me in any way. I still think PLD shouldn't get its DPS buffed unless they give up their defenses.

Anyways, this thread is a joke and wasting anymore time here won't help fix the hive mind of people thinking PLD is junk. Who knows? Maybe SE makes the class more interesting if people complain enough.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Ok, so you agree with the guy that agrees with me that PLD shouldn't do more DPS as long as it has this "safety net" even if this safety net is not needed, cool.

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For the record I don't agree with you and nothing I said matches what you are saying. Please read what I wrote.
What you are saying basically is: "Paladin is fine because it has a safety net, get good." What we are saying that defence stats are bad in the current meta and that all the extra safety the paladin has is useless (just like clemency). If safety was good people would be stacking VIT/Parry and not trying to get rid of it.
The fact that the new raids are very DRK friendly and the rest of utility the PLD brings isn't really something to write home about, only make things worse. That makes the PLD undesirable compared to other tanks. Is it impossible to clear with a paladin? No it isn't, but it isn't impossible to clear with AST too.
And since safety isn't even good when during progression where the error margins are the thinnest, that means that when people get better items and error margins and the damage difference increase Paladin will become even more irrelevant.
The tradeoff between the loss of the dps for the extra defences in the current meta and raid design is not worth it, no matter how you try to spin it. But apparently the WAR hive mind is unable to process that fact.

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

Snips.

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I read your entire post, it's the same redundant crap of how defense doesn't matter as long as you DPS. A post full of misguided information and following the major misconception the hive mind has of "Lucrezia replaced PLD for DRK, hence PLD Broken".

I also surmised from your post that PLD should do more DPS "if it lost defense". Otherwise you are as stupid as the rest of the PLD community crying for more DPS while keeping their defensive superiority.

I didn't say PLD is fine because it has a safety net. I said PLD is fine because it is "SAFE". There is a difference between safety and safety nets.

Safety Net: a safeguard against possible hardship or adversity.

PLD is not your safety net, your healer is! PLD prevents things from going bad in the first place, hence, safe.

If you're driving a car: Your PLD is "driving the car carefully and following driving laws" while your healer is your "seat belt and airbags". Seat belts and Airbags aren't doing their job until accidents happen. But driving carefully means accidents wouldn't happen (unless things out of your control happen).

You do need a minimum VIT to survive. No tank goes into Savage in full STR gear.

Parry is trash because you cannot guarantee that you will reduce the damage needed to be reduced. So even if it DID work on busters (like the entirety of 2.xx), you shouldn't rely on parry. Just because it's a "defensive stat" doesn't mean it is "good". It doesn't do what it should in the first place.

Your point of tanks stacking VIT and parry is as irrelevant as saying it is now sunny in China.

PLD was the best MT for the entirety of 2.xx even though WAR could reduce more damage on most encounters and do more (Twice!!) MT damage. Reason? Safety.

What I have been saying in all my posts:

- PLD hasn't changed in any way. They got more DPS combos (more DPS) and Sheltron (mitigation) and Clemency (support).
- WAR hasn't changed for the most part. They got Deliverance so that when they actually DPS, they do not lose access to their highest potency attacks like they did in 2.xx.
- DRK has been added.

WAR MT / any OT aren't a thing because of safety.

PLD MT is the default option, A1S and A2S were attempted and cleared with PLD MT. A3S was attempted for the longest time with PLD MT and then in order to bring a NIN instead of a MNK, PLD was replaced by DRK.

Also, if people weren't so stupid, no group setups would be changed, PLD DPS as OT is very high and within an 8% margin of WAR!

You disregarded Hallowed Ground safety and said other tanks have "comparable" abilities, let's tackle that:

Living Dead: Is HORRIBLE! It sucks compared to HG!
1- It requires a trigger. You may use the skill and never get immune because you never hit 0 HP!
2- It requires another safety net CD in Benediction. Even if Benediction wasn't used, the amount of Lustrates and Essential Dignity blown to cover its down side is BAD.
3- Living Dead CD isn't that much shorter than HG at 5 minutes. And
4- A healer panicking can remove the immunity buff early.
5- You still take damage so effects like debuffs (Ravana invulnerability up) and knockbacks (Titan HM/EX) go through.

Holmgang: 1- Roots you in place and you may eat up an AoE you shouldn't as it expires and you end up dying, beating the whole purpose of the ability.
2- Lasts only half as long as HG. Before you smart-ass this, it's 6 seconds, but you need to be alive and above 1HP to use it before you hit the 1 HP. You also need to be healed before it expires or you die. Any seconds spent while you are above 1 HP are wasted. And any heals received before its last second are damage not mitigated.
3- Requires a target. You can't cheese mechanics when you do not have a target like HG does.
4- You still take damage so effects like debuffs (Ravana invulnerability up) and knockbacks (Titan HM/EX) go through.
5- Needs to be healed after. Either from healers or blowing self-heals.

Now let's compare them to Hallowed Ground:
1- Full immunity at any % of HP.
2- Granted full immunity, any debuffs from damage or knockbacks don't apply.
3- No healer input required. As a matter of fact, you can use these 10 seconds to heal yourself back to full using Clemency. You can't get interrupted.
4- Has no conditions tied to it other than a long CD. You do not need a target. You do not need a trigger.

So you can see where your logic of "Hallowed Ground isn't that great because it's on a long CD and other tanks have a comparable CD" fails. No, other tanks don't even come close to HG. What do you want here? Hallowed Ground on a 3 min CD? Come on.

The difference in DPS between the tanks has been proven to be within ~90 DPS. You are over-exaggerating the DPS variance between the tanks.

PLD takes less fluff damage than the other two tanks and require no more healer attention than a couple layers of regen/fairy heals.

Take A1S for example, PLD mitigates magical busters just fine. Outside of tank busters, a PLD can block hence mitigating more fluff than DRK. On busters, DRK will couple Shadowskin or Shadow Wall with Dark Mind for 44% or 51% mitigation resptively. PLD will rotate Sentinel for 40% and HG for 100%!! mitigation then Sentinel again. The fight should end with 3 busters.

Now the damage mitigation should not matter that much, but it allows healers to do more damage. Whatever less DPS the PLD didn't do, the healers can make up for it.

From there it is a strategic choice: Should we get PLD to be sure to mitigate more? or get a DRK and do slightly more DPS?

If anything, have you looked at how DRK mitigates Physical Damage? Now we have a broken class! Unlike WAR, DRK has huge gaps between its CDs and unlike PLD it doesn't have the passive mitigation of a shield. Had any of the Alexander Savage encounters have Physical Busters, the DRKs would be the ones clustering these forums with threads saying that they don't bring enough to a raid to warrant their spot. As a matter of fact, DRKs were already clustering these forums with those exact threads. Just go back two pages on the thread list. And I really think SE should look into this if they are going further into the future.

In all my previous posts I provided numbers how PLD is not far behind in DPS and is also in the ahead in terms of mitigation in both terms of Physical and Magical. All you have provided is irrelevant VIT/Parry stacking and the same line everyone is throwing "Lucrezia replaced PLD". If you can provide the math why PLD's mitigation shouldn't prevent them from having the same DPS as DRK, please do!

Now I have wasted enough time in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

If you're driving a car: Your PLD is "driving the car carefully and following driving laws" while your healer is your "seat belt and airbags". Seat belts and Airbags aren't doing their job until accidents happen. But driving carefully means accidents wouldn't happen (unless things out of your control happen).

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In fact, PLD is "I'll drive 20 miles below max authorized speed so that I'll risk less", while other tanks simply stay at the max authorized speed...you know who is enough to properly avoid most of the accidents.
But, after all, who cares if journeying with a PLD takes several more hours :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In fact, PLD is "I'll drive 20 miles below max authorized speed so that I'll risk less", while other tanks simply stay at the max authorized speed...you know who is enough to properly avoid most of the accidents.
But, after all, who cares if journeying with a PLD takes several more hours :p

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Nah, that's more like PLD is a Volvo with a lower max speed than a Corvette (WAR) but far more safety...... I know, I suck at cars! ;_;

If your PLD driver (the player) is playing at 20 miles below max then that's his problem for not optimally playing, not the car (class).

But I like how you're playing the same game lol.

Also, what's wrong with the journey taking more hours if you enjoy the company? Huh? think about it!

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

If your PLD driver (the player) is playing at 20 miles below max then that's his problem for not optimally playing, not the car (class).

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Not below the max speed of the car, below the max authorized speed.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Also, what's wrong with the journey taking more hours if you enjoy the company? Huh? think about it!

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I kind of remembering someone on this thread trying to convince me that "Faster is better" ? Any idea who that is :p

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I read your entire post, it's the same redundant crap of how defense doesn't matter as long as you DPS. A post full of misguided information and following the major misconception the hive mind has of "Lucrezia replaced PLD for DRK, hence PLD Broken".

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Because someoene does not agree with you and your WAR hive mind it doesn't mean it's crap. People have different opinions. You don't have to agree with it, as I don't agree with yours. You don't see me going around calling crap despite how misinformed you seem to be.
Like I said before, the same problems that high end raiding groups are facing today are the problems your raiding group will face tomorrow. You don't have to agree with but most people do.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I also surmised from your post that PLD should do more DPS "if it lost defense". Otherwise you are as stupid as the rest of the PLD community crying for more DPS while keeping their defensive superiority.

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Of course more damage should come at the expense of something. If you give PLD the same damage as WAR people will take double PLD. And if you give WAR the same defenses of PLD people will take WAR. Why? Because it's efficient and that's what the "hive" mind will do.
Unless they make defences somehow useful or needed, they are a burden on the whole team. That's how it works and that is why everyone is trying to minimize defences.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I didn't say PLD is fine because it has a safety net. I said PLD is fine because it is "SAFE". There is a difference between safety and safety nets.

Safety Net: ...

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You are arguing about semantics. Everyone understands we both meant the PLD defences and it's not contributing anything in the conversation. And since you just want to argue about semantics, yes, you did: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3239359

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You do need a minimum VIT to survive. No tank goes into Savage in full STR gear.

Parry is trash ...

Your point of tanks stacking VIT and parry is as irrelevant as saying it is now sunny in China.

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You are either totally missing the point or you are just avoiding it because it doesn't fit your narrative. Of course VIT and Parry are bad. They are bad because the META (raid design) dictates that clear speed (ie damage) is the most efficient thing.
If you had raid encounters designed as battle of attrition then defences woud be more meaningful. Right now they aren't. And thus why a DEFENSE focused tank doesn't fit well in a META where DEFENCES ARE BAD. You can spin it, dress it, put cream and sugar on top but nothing will change this fact.
That is why in the current META the paladin is inherently bad because as long as defences are bad, a tank that is focused on defences will be bad. I really can't make it any clearer than that.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

PLD was the best MT for the entirety of 2.xx even though WAR could reduce more damage on most encounters and do more (Twice!!) MT damage. Reason? Safety.

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Which part of safety doesn't matter do I need to repeat? People used PLD as MT because you took one of each tank and PLD as MT was more efficient as MT than OT.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

What I have been saying in all my posts:

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Also, if people weren't so stupid, no group setups would be changed, PLD DPS as OT is very high and within an 8% margin of WAR!

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Neither a paladin, not a DRK can get within 8% margin of WAR damage. And I don't think anyone believes that. If it was possible you would see groups with a DRK / PLD combo clearing savage level 3. If those group exists they are even rarer than groups with AST.
The WAR damage output is pretty much the reason why it is pretty much mandatory (balance!) in all raid groups. Oh wait, the hive mind dictates that, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You disregarded Hallowed Ground safety and said other tanks have "comparable" abilities, let's tackle that:

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Now I have wasted enough time in this thread.

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But Hallowed Ground is SAFE! Sometimes I really wish they would just remove it from paladin to spare me from people like you.
Is Hallowed Ground better than the other two equivalents? Yes. That is plain for everyone to see. It's better for the healers since they are given a 10 second reprieve.
Does it change anything for the tank? No not really. It's just another cooldown you that you pop and you continue doing what you were doing before. The same is true for the other abilities. And I don't being locked into place for 6 seconds is quite the handicap you are making it out to be.
And just as you plan to use Hallowed, you also plan to use the other abilities. What does that mean? It means that your healers KNOW it's coming and they will PREPARE for it. You don't go out poping that cooldown for the kicks. They are not as efficient as hallowed, but they are not bad to be unusable (hello clemency!). The cooldown of the WAR allows for it to be used reliably for more than one time, but the living dead cooldown isn't that forgiving.
From what I understand the only thing that will make you happy on this subject is to give Hallowed Ground to WAR, because apparently it's the only thing you are missing.

So in conclusion people will do what is the most efficient thing to do. That is way people level with fates and not killing monsters. If something is efficient enough and provides some incentives(leveling with dungeons and loot for example) people will use that too.
That is why 99% of the tank combinations is WAR + something, but I guess that is what balance equates for the WAR hive mind. That is also why the PLD is not in a good spot right. The incentives paladin provides are not good enough to offset the loss in damage.
As it stands now the only practical scenario I see where PLD strengths offset their lack of dps is PUG savage raid groups.

As a side note. If I have to say something to blame that is the way the raids are designed. There is absolutely no tradeoff in picking Attack stats over Defence stats. All of the tank classes would work just fine if that was true. For example picking STR meant considerably increased your chances of dying or high vitality increased regeneration considerably.
It would even make the tank gameplay richer and strategic. Right not tanks are a subpar dps that exists only because you can't replace it with a dps.

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

Because someoene does not agree with you and your WAR hive mind it doesn't mean it's crap. People have different opinions. You don't have to agree with it, as I don't agree with yours. You don't see me going around calling crap despite how misinformed you seem to be.
Like I said before, the same problems that high end raiding groups are facing today are the problems your raiding group will face tomorrow. You don't have to agree with but most people do.

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You assuming I'm a WAR in the first place and adding me to a non-existing "WAR-hive mind" is a total joke.

I called it crap because NONE of the people that are trying to sell their point of PLD being broken can back up their claims with solid proves, be it numbers or actual facts other than "Lucrezia dropped PLD boo-hoo".

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

Which part of safety doesn't matter do I need to repeat? People used PLD as MT because you took one of each tank and PLD as MT was more efficient as MT than OT.

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Not really, people took PLD to MT and they took "another tank" to OT. The other tank didn't matter as PLD or WAR were fine. Double jobs LB penalty didn't prevent groups from taking double MNKs for the entirety of SCoB and FCoB progression and that "meta" only broke when NIN came out since Trick Attack added more raid DPS than 1 MNK dropping DK in favor of Bootshine.

You also pointed out somewhere in your post that people would take double WAR if it had the defenses of PLD. Well, why aren't they already? Since DPS is everything and all. Again, LB penalty didn't stop people from double monking in SCoB and FCoB.

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

Neither a paladin, not a DRK can get within 8% margin of WAR damage. And I don't think anyone believes that. If it was possible you would see groups with a DRK / PLD combo clearing savage level 3. If those group exists they are even rarer than groups with AST.
The WAR damage output is pretty much the reason why it is pretty much mandatory (balance!) in all raid groups. Oh wait, the hive mind dictates that, sorry.

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Check this. DRK is 3% behind WAR, PLD is 8% behind WAR.
Yes it's a dummy parse. Yes it's "too perfect" with all these buffs provided. But in a real fight PLD comes closer because of down times (bosses jump and have in-vulnerabilities).

People not going PLD / DRK is just a stupidity thing. It's like why people wouldn't let WAR solo tank T9 or Shiva Ex. In the end there are those that did them.

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

But Hallowed Ground is SAFE! Sometimes I really wish they would just remove it from paladin to spare me from people like you.
Is Hallowed Ground better than the other two equivalents? Yes. That is plain for everyone to see. It's better for the healers since they are given a 10 second reprieve.
Does it change anything for the tank? No not really. It's just another cooldown you that you pop and you continue doing what you were doing before. The same is true for the other abilities. And I don't being locked into place for 6 seconds is quite the handicap you are making it out to be.
And just as you plan to use Hallowed, you also plan to use the other abilities. What does that mean? It means that your healers KNOW it's coming and they will PREPARE for it. You don't go out poping that cooldown for the kicks. They are not as efficient as hallowed, but they are not bad to be unusable (hello clemency!). The cooldown of the WAR allows for it to be used reliably for more than one time, but the living dead cooldown isn't that forgiving.
From what I understand the only thing that will make you happy on this subject is to give Hallowed Ground to WAR, because apparently it's the only thing you are missing.

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Here are a few reasons why you are wrong:

- Even when planned, Holmgang is not worth using. A WAR stacking any of its CDs with IB will reduce far more damage and require far less healing than a WAR going down to 1HP and then healed back to full. Same can be said about DRK. This is the main reason WARs and DRKs don't "plan" using Holmgang and LD unless they really need to.
- Hallowed Ground can cheese an entire mechanic or render a tank buster irrelevant.
- Most end-game fights are 11 to 15 minutes. You can use HG effectively twice. Planning them WILL make an encounter easier.

WAR is missing far more than just Hallowed Ground. WAR receives 4% less healing from spells and 20% less from abilities. I'd want that "fixed" before I'd even ask for Hallowed Ground.

If anything, I am sick of Hallowed Ground because for the entirety of ARR, I used to breech at WAR MT PLD OT and the paladins would reply with "Hallowed Ground". Now that it is inconvenient you wish it wasn't there? The joke's on you PLDs. What's even funnier is that PLDs now retort at WARs with "But you have Inner Beast!".

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

So in conclusion people will do what is the most efficient thing to do. That is way people level with fates and not killing monsters. If something is efficient enough and provides some incentives(leveling with dungeons and loot for example) people will use that too.
That is why 99% of the tank combinations is WAR + something, but I guess that is what balance equates for the WAR hive mind. That is also why the PLD is not in a good spot right. The incentives paladin provides are not good enough to offset the loss in damage.
As it stands now the only practical scenario I see where PLD strengths offset their lack of dps is PUG savage raid groups.

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Efficiency is one thing and people naturally always pick up the most efficient route. But you are ignoring the whole healing efficiency. People dying is an huge raid-wide DPS. But since you want to stick to your misinformed point-of-view I won't "argue" safety.

Yes PLD may not be in the best spot it's been since 2.0, but it is not in a bad spot. It is no where near AST or 2.0 WAR.

WAR is sitting comfortably in the OT spot because PLD and DRK are fighting each other hard for the MT spot. Should I mention how annoying it is from a balance (more like Hive mindset) perspective that WAR is stuck with the "over-glorified DPS" role where it's never the preferred MT?

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

As a side note. If I have to say something to blame that is the way the raids are designed. There is absolutely no tradeoff in picking Attack stats over Defence stats. All of the tank classes would work just fine if that was true. For example picking STR meant considerably increased your chances of dying or high vitality increased regeneration considerably.
It would even make the tank gameplay richer and strategic. Right not tanks are a subpar dps that exists only because you can't replace it with a dps.

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Bad stat design is this game's biggest flaw. But you know why people ignore VIT and Parry? It's because of the tank's defensive CDs! Guess who has the best? Oh right! PLD!

Again, what I am saying is "PLD is fine as it is. As long as it is defensively superior, its DPS should never be upped!"
This is not me saying it shouldn't be changed. I am saying it shouldn't be buffed. If SE decides to give PLD more DPS at the cost of its defenses, I'm more than happy for them, grats!

Anyways, say what you will. I sincerely hope you can provide numbers or videos that prove that PLD is broken. Otherwise this thread is a big waste of time.

I have been reading for some time. Tbh most of this seems to be, well dumb to be honest. Numbers have flown over my head, I play this game for the enjoyment game and doing my best with it not what is the flavour of the month so to speak. I choose WAR and had to fight through the shadow left by the 2.0 version of my class when i started in march of last year i never got kicked I know healers weren't keen on me. What I am getting at is if you like it play it and bugger everyone else and if this bothers you that much complaining on here ain't going to change much. I do agree though that PLD's are not to blame and as a class they are fine, hell I'm lvling one up now and I am enjoying the change of pace. I do agree though that it is the raid designs that are causing the issue not the class. These seem to be designed to showcase the DRK so I think we should wait for the next set of raids to come out. Who knows they might favour a DRK PLD set up.

The safety thing... PLD is/was the desirable MT because an 'optimal : clear-capable' PLD guide was for progressing Statics & summer-child PUGs: easy to replicate. Getting wiped to the same ability over and over: is the PLD following the CD-rotation guide? Yes? Okay tank isn't at fault. Healers & DPS need to step up their healing/debuffs,etc

Going for t9 clear? Follow the PLD-MT-SoloTank CD-by-CD guide provided by "Insert FC name's 7player on-farm static" blog or website guide and boom you're a winner.

Warrior could have the same guide for reference, it'd be just as effective but it'd be twice as long in text and harder to replicate due to GCD-to-GCD dependency. But a WAR OT guide was just as harsh a Q-Q but doable, and done correctly min-max'd WAR OT. Both jobs performing at max potential progressing the raid.

The 2.0 WAR stigma: 2.1+ No MT for j00 bub - that's hive mind. But let's not take this FoTM word too far. Somewhere there is a line in the sand where 'hive-mind' ends and 'progression/clear determined research' begins. Only a fraction of the Coil-cleared playerbase would have made that achievement if it wasn't for 'hive-mind' everyone's harpooning.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

The safety thing... PLD is/was the desirable MT because an 'optimal : clear-capable' PLD guide was for progressing Statics & summer-child PUGs: easy to replicate.

Going for t9 clear? Follow the PLD-MT-SoloTank CD-by-CD guide provided by "Insert FC name's 7player on-farm static" blog or website guide and boom you're a winner.

Warrior could have the same guide for reference, it'd be just as effective but it'd be twice as long in text and harder to replicate due to GCD-to-GCD dependency. But a WAR OT guide was just as harsh a Q-Q but doable, and done correctly min-max'd WAR OT. Both jobs performing at max potential progressing the raid.

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This whole "twice as long" and "harder to replicate" are the "safety" thing I'm referring to.

PLD: Tank boss, Press CD.
Vs.
WAR: Infuriate at start, make sure you use x GCDs, drop Fracture here or you won't make it, and be careful when to use berserk or you'll be pacified at the worst time. Oh, when you DO use Inner Beast, don't forget to also press CD. For the next IB, don't forget to pop Vengeance to force a Wrath stack, or you won't make it before buster!

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

The 2.0 WAR stigma: 2.1+ No MT for j00 bub - that's hive mind. But let's not take this FoTM word too far. Somewhere there is a line in the sand where 'hive-mind' ends and 'progression/clear determined research' begins. Only a fraction of the Coil-cleared playerbase would have made that achievement if it wasn't for 'hive-mind' everyone's harpooning.

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There is a reason I put every "hive mind" between quotes. lol

My posts were mainly telling people to get out of what the community tells them and try things themselves. WAR MT / PLD OT, WAR MT / DRK OT, PLD/DRK + NIN REALLY work. There is no imbalance if you know how to make a WAR/PLD combination do more DPS than a PLD/WAR combo.

None of the three tanks is rendered in a situation where it is near 2.0 WAR level broken. Heck, there is no situation where any of the tanks is broken.

As a matter of fact, there is an underlying issue with DRK and physical damage mitigation. This will flood the forums "again" once physical heavy encounters are made relevant again.

Yes PLD and DRK probably need some quality of life changes. TP issues are kinda unfair to them. Out side of QoL and said DRK physical mitigation issues, I think tanks are fine as is.

How about giving PLD Reprisal(FFXI) or Riposte(counterattack on successful parry)?

You can't get Riposte unless you get rid of Shield Swipe.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

How about giving PLD Reprisal(FFXI) or Riposte(counterattack on successful parry)?

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Shield Swipe is supposed to fill that "counter attack" roll, but is now a DpS loss if you are using any combo other than RoH.

TBH they could fix pretty much all paladin issues by simply increasing Shield Swipe to like 250-260 potency and making it a 5x threat modifier.

That way they can use more of their Goring/Royal combos without needing to Halone every so often for threat, Shield Swipe would be a DPS increase to hit it when it popped, and it wouldn't increase their offtank dps when not taking hits (which is fine because they bring utility via cover/clemency/divine shield for the offtank role so should be lower than WAR/DRK that just bring damage).

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Originally Posted by Noira

You can't get Riposte unless you get rid of Shield Swipe.

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Considering Riposte is generally added as a passive, automatic thing as Shield Swipe is annoying to use because its on GCD?

No.

shield swipe should have been an oGCD, since the very first beginning of ARR.

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Originally Posted by ks3v3n

shield swipe should have been an oGCD, since the very first beginning of ARR.

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I agree with this. It would get used much more often.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You assuming I'm a WAR in the first place and adding me to a non-existing "WAR-hive mind" is a total joke.

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Really? I find that hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Not really, people took PLD to MT and they took "another tank" to OT. The other tank didn't matter as PLD or WAR were fine. Double jobs LB penalty didn't prevent groups from taking double MNKs for the entirety of SCoB and FCoB progression and that "meta" only broke when NIN came out since Trick Attack added more raid DPS than 1 MNK dropping DK in favor of Bootshine.

You also pointed out somewhere in your post that people would take double WAR if it had the defenses of PLD. Well, why aren't they already? Since DPS is everything and all. Again, LB penalty didn't stop people from double monking in SCoB and FCoB.

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Just like there are groups that take 2x MNK, there are groups that take 2x WAR. Most people don't take 2x same class for LB and loot consideration.
Also why on earth would you take a PLD (or DRK for that matter) when they do less damage than WAR as OT and they run out of TP in the first half of the battle?

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Check this. DRK is 3% behind WAR, PLD is 8% behind WAR.
Yes it's a dummy parse. Yes it's "too perfect" with all these buffs provided. But in a real fight PLD comes closer because of down times (bosses jump and have in-vulnerabilities).

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Yes it's too perfect for your narrative, but only for that. Let's see. You have 2 people buffing the DRK and the PLD (slash debuff and TP). Why doesn't the WAR get a slash debuff and has to loose dps to keep it up himself? Why does the WAR suffer the full effect of pacification and you don't have a healer remove the debuff from him?
Why does the video cut off like that? Why doesn't the WAR have enough skill speed to fit 3 combos on one berserk (could be wrong about this one since it's not the tank's pov and you can't see the abilities and rotations used clearly)? As a matter of fact why isn't it a tank PoV so we see and judge their rotations easier?
The video is also ignoring 2 important the facts:
1. Gear optimization for each class. (For example +crit is way more beneficial on WAR than any other classes, plus you need skill speed enough to use 3 full combos in berserk).
2. No enmity generation. This just dps without building any actual enmity, which will never happen in a raid environment. You will have to go to tank stance to build enmity. Guess will build faster and more efficient and can go back to dps stance faster to do more damage.
So you have a video where everything is stacked against the war, while helping the other two tanks as much as you can to get the result you want, and preach it like it's a fact. Talk about being disingenuous. In a real fight the margin will be not be smaller, it will be MUCH wider, especially with a good WAR.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

People not going PLD / DRK is just a stupidity thing. It's like why people wouldn't let WAR solo tank T9 or Shiva Ex. In the end there are those that did them.

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So basically you are sore because PUGS wanted PLD for solo tank in 2.0 instead of WAR. (You are not a WAR though). Aren't those the same pugs that demanded a WHM for solo healing?
Congratulation. PLD is OP in PUGS where people will probably wont be that good and you will need as much healing power and safety as you can get. I even said that myself in a previous post.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Here are a few reasons why you are wrong:

- Even when planned, Holmgang is not worth using. A WAR stacking any of its CDs with IB will reduce far more damage and require far less healing than a WAR going down to 1HP and then healed back to full. Same can be said about DRK. This is the main reason WARs and DRKs don't "plan" using Holmgang and LD unless they really need to.
- Hallowed Ground can cheese an entire mechanic or render a tank buster irrelevant.
- Most end-game fights are 11 to 15 minutes. You can use HG effectively twice. Planning them WILL make an encounter easier.

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Are you mad or you are just trolling? Holmgang is not worth using? Really? All you have to do is be in dps stance, go tank stance right before the tank buster and pop Holmgang. You get hit by the tank buster, pop equilibrium if you're feeling like helping the healers (or ToB or both if you're feeling particularly generous to your healers), wait to get topped up and immediately go to dps stance with extra hp and cooldowns that will help you stay in dps stance longer and use that IB as fell cleave.
You aren't loosing healer dps since they will pretty much have to go healer stance (if they haven't already) to heal you any way. The damage they loose by staying in healing stance a little longer to top you off is negligible compared to the damage the WAR will gain from staying in DPS stance longer by saving the extra cooldowns (and converting that IB to Fell Cleave).

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR is missing far more than just Hallowed Ground. WAR receives 4% less healing from spells and 20% less from abilities. I'd want that "fixed" before I'd even ask for Hallowed Ground.

If anything, I am sick of Hallowed Ground because for the entirety of ARR, I used to breech at WAR MT PLD OT and the paladins would reply with "Hallowed Ground". Now that it is inconvenient you wish it wasn't there? The joke's on you PLDs. What's even funnier is that PLDs now retort at WARs with "But you have Inner Beast!".

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While we are it, let's give WAR an increase to Fell Cleave potency and some healing when he goes to tank stance. After that we can give him hallowed ground so he wont be feeling left out. You are totally not a WAR though.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Efficiency is one thing and people naturally always pick up the most efficient route. But you are ignoring the whole healing efficiency. People dying is an huge raid-wide DPS. But since you want to stick to your misinformed point-of-view I won't "argue" safety.

Yes PLD may not be in the best spot it's been since 2.0, but it is not in a bad spot. It is no where near AST or 2.0 WAR.

WAR is sitting comfortably in the OT spot because PLD and DRK are fighting each other hard for the MT spot. Should I mention how annoying it is from a balance (more like Hive mindset) perspective that WAR is stuck with the "over-glorified DPS" role where it's never the preferred MT?

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Oh noes! WAR can MT but they wont let me MT because I do insane damage as OT where the other tanks are picking up their pieces after running out of TP mid fight, while still doing less damage than me even before their TP runs out. Still not a WAR though.
For the record I never said that PLD is as bad as AST but it's not fine either. Also the healing efficiency gained from having a PLD isn't that high because healing efficiency from dps is higher than healing efficiency from defences. You don't need 20 seconds of healing efficiency by having a PLD when you can gain 1 minute of healing efficiency by clearing earlier with more dps.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Bad stat design is this game's biggest flaw. But you know why people ignore VIT and Parry? It's because of the tank's defensive CDs! Guess who has the best? Oh right! PLD!

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Maybe PLD is the source of server crashes and network bottlenecks as well? Are you kidding me? VIT and Parry and worthless because the bosses auto attacks do very little damage. You can practically tank those auto attacks in dps stance and not break a sweat. Heck you can even let a dps tank the boss auto-attacks.
The only considerable amount of damage raids have (defence checks) are tank busters and a few in between high powered attacks. If the auto attacks did hefty amounts of damage (let's say 4k per hit on tank stance, random number but you get the point) when VIT would be good, Parry would be great and the tank stance would be mandatory. And guess what? Defences would actually matter!
The problem isn't the PLD (which apparently is the source of all the game's evil, imbalances, treasonous lalafels and server crashes) or the cooldowns as you are saying. The problem is the current meta tanks are not designed to be a defensive character (ie a tank). They are designed to be a subpar dps with lots of dps and cooldowns to survive tank busters.
And guess what, when you are regulated to dps and you do less dps than the other dps do, then you have a problem. If you want people to stop complaining about tank damage then you need to nerf tank damage (all tank damage) to the ground. Problem solved permanently.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Anyways, say what you will. I sincerely hope you can provide numbers or videos that prove that PLD is broken. Otherwise this thread is a big waste of time.

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Want some videos?
Here you go, on a real raid, with real conditions like enmity generation and optimized gear, on savage 2 where the tanks usually split half the adds (so they get an equal opportunity time as MT) and the PLD is OP because of his superior defences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooNCi_9VL3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTIatJfImJY

As matter of fact, do a youtube search for any savage raid with a pld and check their damage compared to the other tank.

And before people start: OMG You liked a SAV2 video! SAV2 is bad for PLD dps, it's sarcasm.
If are entitled to posting a stacked video against the WAR to prove your point, so can I post as video stacked against PLD to prove my point. At least in my video the stacking is blatantly obvious.
If you want actual videos go look in the other threads, you'll find right below the WAR Hivemind quote "that video doesn't count because the player sucks".

Edit:

And before this post descends into a flame war about videos (since this is not my intention) let me clarify a few things.

First of all, because there are so many parameters involved in this game it's not easy to accurately measure dps for tanks.
There are things like item optimization, enmity generation, mechanics, player skill, latency, how classes interact with each other, you name it.
The only feasible way to accurately measure that would be to create a group of bots that played the fight perfectly, had the most optimized equipment and used the best rotations. And run that group on Savage a few billion times to get the results.
I can't make that and I don't think even SE can make that. If they did, all the classes would ship balanced ready and they would never have to be updated. The only one able to do that is God (or whatever omnipotent being you believe in, if you don't believe in God).

That leaves the following options of how to get an idea of what the actual balance might be like:
1. Take a huge number of battles and compare median dps results. That might work for SE, but we can't really do it, since our only option is youtube where there are only a few videos and even fewer videos with parse.
It also has the inherent problem we are seeing here: "This battle favors WAR because aoe", "This player sucks", "he did that wrong" etc, etc. And for each video you or I can provide that "prove" a point someone can provide another 10 that proves the other point. It's like two people shouting to a wall. Good luck with that.
2. The other way is to take what is probably closer to the bot group described above: And that is the high end raiding players. If someone can come close to the max utilization of classes it's them.
We said that for PLD and you gave the argument: "You are not them, so it doesn't matter".

Or we can cherry pick a video and rage on because why not? (What is happening now).

I still stand by what I said before. The only way to fix this mess it to make defences worth something and turn the tanks into, well actual tanks, and not "beefy" dps that they are now. Or nerf tank damage to the ground.
On SE defence I can understand why they choose this META. They probably did it to make tanks more appealing to players, so that more players will play tanks. Let's not hide behind our finger here, big numbers are popular and that is why there is a metric ton of dps more out there compared to the other classes.
The problem we are suffering is that "beefy" dps is still dps and as long as the damage has big fluctuations (real or perceived) people will complain. Check the dps forum for that.

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

Yes it's too perfect for your narrative, but only for that. Let's see. You have 2 people buffing the DRK and the PLD (slash debuff and TP). Why doesn't the WAR get a slash debuff and has to loose dps to keep it up himself? Why does the WAR suffer the full effect of pacification and you don't have a healer remove the debuff from him?
Why does the video cut off like that? Why doesn't the WAR have enough skill speed to fit 3 combos on one berserk (could be wrong about this one since it's not the tank's pov and you can't see the abilities and rotations used clearly)? As a matter of fact why isn't it a tank PoV so we see and judge their rotations easier?
The video is also ignoring 2 important the facts:
1. Gear optimization for each class. (For example +crit is way more beneficial on WAR than any other classes, plus you need skill speed enough to use 3 full combos in berserk).
2. No enmity generation. This just dps without building any actual enmity, which will never happen in a raid environment. You will have to go to tank stance to build enmity. Guess will build faster and more efficient and can go back to dps stance faster to do more damage.
So you have a video where everything is stacked against the war, while helping the other two tanks as much as you can to get the result you want, and preach it like it's a fact. Talk about being disingenuous. In a real fight the margin will be not be smaller, it will be MUCH wider, especially with a good WAR.

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Actually, I do believe that he doesn't play WAR because he didn't even notice that the WAR's opener was just wrong if all you're trying to do is maximize DPS. Either that or he's just being incredibly disingenuous which is probably also the case. The WAR doesn't open with Infuriate and extend it in order to land a Berserked triple FC opener. Instead he just opens with Heavy Swing and waits until 4 stacks of Abandon to pop Berserk.

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Originally Posted by Ivellior

And before people start: OMG You liked a SAV2 video! SAV2 is bad for PLD dps, it's sarcasm.

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Actually, why would it be an acceptable answer ?
Why would it be normal for PLD to be so far behind in a heavy AoE fight ?

Maybe our single target DPS is not so bad when compared to WAR or DRK, especially if we have the slashing debuff, and someone to give us TP...but in AoE fights we're just useless when it comes to DPS.
So, I'll stick to one of my idea, change Shield Swipe into War Drum, with adjustment on potency to not be...hmm...overpowered (no pun intended)

A2S is also the typical example where "Just let the WAR MT and the PLD OT" is also not an answer.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Instead he just opens with Heavy Swing and waits until 4 stacks of Abandon to pop Berserk.

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Well, if you want to do three Fell Cleave during Berserk, you have to build 4 Abandon before, I don't see the problem here.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, if you want to do three Fell Cleave during Berserk, you have to build 4 Abandon before, I don't see the problem here.

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Well, if you want to use a sub-optimal opener, I don't see the problem here.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Well, if you want to use a sub-optimal opener, I don't see the problem here.

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Yes...why ? How is that a sub-optimal opener since you won't have three Berserked FC if you pop infuriate right away ?
It's not like "building 4 stacks" takes 30 seconds...you can even pop a Brutal Swing right away and pop another during berserk.

The opener that you actually use and one you should definitely parse is infuriate --> wait until abandon is about to fall off --> raw intuition --> wait abandon is about to fall off again --> begin. Everyone has to wait ~50 seconds or something like that for you but it is your optimal opener. What this ends up giving you is full abandon to start and because you used infuriate and waited at the start, infuriate will be back up in time to land a third fell cleave during your opening berserk.

So you start with extra crit from 5 stack deliverance, you don't have any initial stack building down time, you get your offensive CDs on CD sooner so that they are back up again sooner and you have better overall up-time, and in a live environment it lines up much better with the battle litany timings and what not.

In other words, you have to be a bad warrior or just simply not play warrior to not know something was obviously wrong.

In other words, the video was garbage and it's hilarious that people still link it thinking it's a fair comparison of DPS.

Waiting for 4 stacks delays zerk by 6gcds. 18 seconds. Also delaying ir by 18 sec. You just nerfed ir by 30% and zerk by 20%. Delaying CDs is the same as sitting on them. Would you let zerk and IR sit unused for almost 20 sec in the middle of a fight? He'll no. So why would you do that at the start? It's a massive damage loss over time. Waiting to zerk for 3 fcs is delaying the use of zerk (damage loss) to try to get a slightly more efficient use of zerk (3 fcs). It's like staying locked in 1st gear. Sure you accelerate fast but your just burning all your gas in the long run and won't win the long game.

Yeah, for dummies, Faust, A1S, A3S, and possibly A4S (if you're OT I think keeping RI for Quarantine is worth it :V) you want to open with:

Pre-Infuriate -> Vengeance -> ~10s left -> HS -> Maim -> [Brutal Swing] -> SE -> [Pot] -> HS -> [IR + Berserk] -> FC -> Infuriate -> FC -> [Raw Intuition] -> SS -> BB -> HS -> Maim -> [Brutal Swing] -> Eye -> Fracture -> FC > Pacified

Or something to that effect.

Anyway a DPS comparison video on a dummy is a bit of a weird thing to do in the first place. So many variables to account for, so many runs you'd need to balance any exceptionally high or low crit runs... just way too much to account for and then find an average of. The same goes for actual fights, so many variables to be accounted for. I dunno. I'm just waiting for the inevitable patch where they change things with the tanks and seeing just how much they change (if they change anything at all outside of threat modifiers).

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Waiting for 4 stacks delays zerk by 6gcds. 18 seconds. Also delaying ir by 18 sec. You just nerfed ir by 30% and zerk by 20%.

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Except that you need to apply Maim and Storm's Eye before Berserk and Internal Release or you're missing a lot of damage. So they'll "sit" for at least 3 GCD anyway.

So you only have 10% more critical for one non-buffed Heavy Swing, 8% more for one-non buffed Maim, 6% more for one partially buffed Storm's Eye (and whatever fully-buffed skills you use before your next combo), 4% more for the next fully-buffed Heavy Swing and 2% more for the next fully-buffed Skull Sunder.
Besides, by using Vengeance or Raw Intuition in your pre-opener, you'll also delay their free Abandon stack during your rotation, and waste the free Abandon stack of Berserk.

Problem is, your opener only works with a very precise coordination with everyone's pre-opener buff and only if the main tank isn't "puller-happy". So it only brings more "artificial" numbers since you won't always pull this up in real fights. It's exactly like doing a PLD/DRK MT parse without considering their DPS increase from Shield Swipe (Before 3.0) or several Low Blows. And your opener is "better" only if those first hits crit in this small percentage.

In the video, PLD's rotation is at least one that can be used whatever the fight is as long as the target don't go away.

LB penalty? New one to me....

As a ARR WAR main, I was really excited about the PLD changes in heavensward. The first class I played in this game was GLA, because I knew from the beginning I wanted to tank. After playing it for a bit, I decided to give WAR a shot sometime before 2.2? I think? Fell in love and didn't look back. I kept both jobs geared just to be more versatile, but I preferred WAR.

So when I saw what PLD was getting in HW, I was so hyped. I also loved the "knight in shining armor" trope, but was bored by PLD's play style. So now they get new combos, shields, an inner beast equivalent, and a HEAL! I thought to myself, there's no way any raid group will ever choose not to take a PLD, their shit is OP....

Man was I wrong. PLD utility is barely useful, sheltron is really nice but pretty meh in alex savage, and their damage is the lowest of the 3 tanks. It's disappointing to me, because it was the first job I got to 60. Yeah, things can be cleared just fine with a PLD, I've never been kicked from a group for playing PLD, but it bugs the shit out of me as a minmaxer.

If nothing requires PLD's supposed high defense, why take it? DRK and WAR can MT everything a PLD can more than fine, while doing more damage. You can argue "but PLD can also clear everything in the game just fine!" until you're red in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that PLD doesn't really offer much other than taking slightly less damage over long periods (which does not = extra healer DPS, because the amount of damage taken is still so significant even on a PLD that it barely makes a difference)

I've leveled WAR to 60 now though, and I'm working on DRK. They're more fun, tank everything more than fine, and do more damage, so at least I have that...

bumping my thread as this is still an issue why should 2 tanks be superior out of the 3 if you only ever need two tanks for any duty in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

bumping my thread as this is still an issue why should 2 tanks be superior out of the 3 if you only ever need two tanks for any duty in the first place?

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The only thing two of the tanks are "superior" at is pushing DPS on bleeding edge content. Stop being a baby and suck it up. If you don't like playing PLD anymore and it's a "joke" go roll another class...I hear WAR is pretty awesome.

sorry but tanks shouldn't be so far apart in dps and that is this threads issue.

A tank is a class who grabs all agro holds all mobs in a spot and lives with healers and their own defense cds.

But due to only 3 tanks many would pick the two dps kinds over pld due to pld is worthless dpswise even if they can tank all mobs no problem if a dark can do same and kill mobs like 20secs faster.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

sorry but tanks shouldn't be so far apart in dps and that is this threads issue.

A tank is a class who grabs all agro holds all mobs in a spot and lives with healers and their own defense cds.

But due to only 3 tanks many would pick the two dps kinds over pld due to pld is worthless dpswise even if they can tank all mobs no problem if a dark can do same and kill mobs like 20secs faster.

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No...people pick the kind of tank that they're most comfortable running with. Go find yourself a static and stop the fussing. If you're good at the class you play people aren't going to care that you're PLD instead of DRK or WAR. Seriously, grow up lol all this thread is is you being upset that you can't do everything better than everyone else.

Check out all the WAR mains telling PLD and DRK players to grow up.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Check out all the WAR mains telling PLD and DRK players to grow up.

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I'm a WAR main because that's what my group needed. Previously (and since I started playing at beta) I was a PLD main. I'm also in the process of leveling up the other two tanks so that, unlike some narrow minded people, I have all of the options available to me. What I main doesn't change my view on the situation and I wouldn't be on the forums complaining if PLD or DRK was doing something better than WAR.

Somewhere down the line people seem to come up with this fantasy where WARs and DRKs can't take hits/survive as well as PLDs.

That would be true if the game was focused mainly on High damage Physical attacks that happened frequently enough that passive mitigation is king.

However, Ever since the introduction of 2.1, all tanks have been homogenized to a point where "Pop cooldown before X attack" is the only thing in meaningful content.

The only time a PLD's shield and skills related to it is worth anything is when tanking thrash mobs that constantly deal damage by auto-attacks.

However, because their AoE damage is as good as none, things end up dying slower and thus ends up requiring more healing in the end anyway.

The fantasy that is "PLDs mitigate damage better than other tanks" which in turn lead to "Other tanks are squishier than PLD" is something that died when 2.1 changed WARs to become damage reduction tanks just like PLDs.

Of course, this being the OF Tank Forums, I have no doubt that people are going to continue propagating the aforementioned fantasies as facts.

A good example of this is ever since Page 38 in this thread where certain evidence was disproved so hard the poster likely is not going to post in this thread anymore, yet is still seen posting the same evidences elsewhere. That's the state of how it is in the OF Tank Forums now where the people who make sense just can't be bothered with people who just want to continue spreading misinformation because that's apparently what they do for their own satisfaction.

The way I see it is, higher damage is always a benefit. It's almost always useful. Okay, so not all the time because sometimes it makes for awkward phase pushes or pushes things into enrage on extremely overgeared content (see unsynced ifrit EX or mog HM). But that's stuff you can control.

The so called higher mitigation that PLD brings to the table? When is it useful? And by how much? In any hard content that matters, tanks are still taking bonkers amount of damage, so "increased healer DPS" isn't really a benefit from having to heal a PLD less. And it's SLIGHTLY less, by the way. It's like, okay, the PLD blocked. He took 28% less damage. Cool. He's still gonna get cure 2'd right after just like a DRK or WAR would anyway.

Of course it would be dumb if they designed content so only certain tanks could main tank it, so I understand why they don't make things impossible (and I'm glad for it!) but I feel like what PLD brings to the table isn't good enough at the moment. No one complained in Pre-HW because the viable comp took both tanks ANYWAY, so it's not a matter of "butthurt PLD" complaining all of a sudden.

I think the problem with PLDs is that they're balanced around "utility" rather than damage as their secondary role, and right now their utility is so negligible it might as well not be there.

Warriors are in a good spot because they have a similar tanking mitigation kit to paladins in terms of overall effectiveness, just a little harder to use (pressing Rampart is easier than ensuring you have 5 Wrath stacks for an Inner Beast and timing it right so the 6 seconds are at the best spot). Point for point though, the "higher mitigation" paladins have is pretty much a myth. It's not in their cooldowns because the Warriors have parity there. Vengeance is 10% less than Sentinel but has far more average uptime. Foresight/Awareness are traited differently but balance out. Rampart and Inner beast are roughly equal. Hallowed Ground is better than Holmgang but have similar roles and Holmgang has a shorter CD. Raw Intuition and Bulwark are roughly equal, if anything RI is better due to much higher uptime. Paladin has 10% better Convalescence but Warrior has Thrill of Battle too. Warrior has Equilibrium and improved Bloodbath for self healing, Paladin has Clemency which is stronger but much harder to get off without interruption.

The major comparison between Warrior and Paladin mitigation is the fact that for -sustained- damage rather than bursty EHP a Paladin is slightly better, as the 20% Shield Oath reduction works out slightly better than the 20% healer boost on Defiance (it should be 25%), and the fact that a Paladin's innate block chance comboed with Sheltron use beats out the increased Parry chance warriors get from Wrath stacks. And this difference only affects physical attacks, and isnt reliable on tank busters. Basically you'll only ever notice the difference between a Paladin and a Warrior in toughness when tanking large packs of rapidly hitting mobs, rather than a big single boss (hence why Paladins are viewed as noticeably more survivable in A2S, at a cost of much lower aoe damage).

So whilst we can quibble slightly over the exact numbers, in practise when tanking your average single target big raid boss Warriors and Paladins do a near equal job of mitigating the incoming damage. The advantage of Warriors is that they can dish out more damage whilst doing so, and MUCH more damage whilst sitting in an offtank role. ALL of their skillset is geared towards pretty much nothing but dealing enhanced damage.

Paladins however... they have Divine Seal. Cover. Clemency. Crossclassed Stoneskin. These all give Paladins the role of a "support tank". The Warriors have the damage, the Paladins have the healing and the protection. Warriors will kill bosses faster, Paladins -should- make the healing requirements much easier on a group. Right now however there arent really any fights where healer output is such a difficult problem that these supporty abilities brought by Paladins can make any major difference to success. They're little more than emergency buttons for when something messes up in the healing, and not anything you'd really bring a Paladin for specifically. They -can't- really be a requirement because if Paladin-specific utility skills were needed for an encounter then you'd be forced to bring one. This is before you factor in the fact that the Paladin's low mana pool coupled with the long cast times of Clemency/Stoneskin and the fact you can be interrupted means in practise these moves can only be used at very specific times in an encounter.

Musing: What if Clemency had only 0.5 second cast time and cost 25% of the mana cost it does now. That would be overpowered? A paladin able to spam out 4k heals on the raid without risk of interruption? In a hypothetical situation where Clemency was THAT strong... would it be strong enough to warrant bringing a Paladin over a Warrior? I mean with so much casting spam a paladin woudl do even LESS damage. At what point can you buff utility to be so hugely powerful that it actually beats out "much more damage"?

I guess I'd -prefer- to see Paladins fixed by having their DPS left where it is and having their utility buffed so they're a definite choice over a Warrior/DRK for a different reason. The more you buff tanks to be closer to each other, the more raw DPS numbers dictate which is optimal. I doubt there's any way to easily increase utility without unbalancing things though. Let Warriors have their niche as the high damage tank, let DRKs sit in between Paladins as the medium damage tank that excels at mitigating magical tank busters. Those seem to be good, popular niches. Paladins just need a more clearly defined niche that isnt just "well you can help out a crappy healer a bit sometimes".