New Jobs Gated Behind Completion of 2.0 Story?

I'm not entirely sure what was confusing about it? I'll use 2 scenarios.

Scenario A: New player buys game and wants to play the game as one of the new jobs. Levels to 30 unlocks the job and finishes the game as the new job.

Scenario B: New player buys game and wants to play the game as one of the new jobs. Leves to 50, does most of the story already, unlocks job and gets knocked back down to level 30. Has to level back up to 50 to finish the story.

Which one of those scenarios do you think a new player will like more. If you pick B, id bet money your wrong.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

More stuff about stuff that you and I have discussed...man thats a lot of stuff.

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While I understand what your saying, and I really do, I just don't agree that this game is not newby friendly. They have the hest quest and such that teach you how the dungeon system works. They help tutorial tool is probably one of the better ones I have seen. Suddenly I am having flash backs of Eve Online where they throw you into a ship send you to some asteroid field and say mine this...you will get rich. Eve online comes with a calculator installed in the ui for the record, but I digress. There is more that both of us could certainly discuss and at this point i would rather just agree to disagree with your original post. I respect it, but disagree with it. For the record I started playing this game again roughly three months ago. I started a new char (this one I am speaking from now) Granted I am not a new player, but I was level 50 before then end of the weekend wearing ilvl 100 gear. That included all main story scenarios at the time. Granted it was a Paladin, but needless to say lets not under estimate our new friends that will join us after HW launches. Last I just want to reiterate that I do indeed value your opinion.

I think the biggest problem here is some people are looking at this game as a MMO but forget the other half of the genre; RPG. I;m happy to see such consistency in the lore, even to a fault, as in the PvP situation. Tell me, lore wise, how will you explain the job stone, quests, arrival of new jobs, etc all in existing content to all of a sudden be available. Also, how many people who buy the whole game, starting with the expansion, will not look up how to be the desired job? i think there are bigger fish to fry than the new jobs being gated. people are acting like it will be impossible for new players to get these jobs, meanwhile it just might be impossible for new players to color a chocobo, garden, buy a personal house, start their own FC, do group crafting, craft an airship, participate in FC airship content, etc. Really, what is the bigger issue?

The issue is that they're paying for content they (assumingly) won't be able to access until they hit level 50 and i90, rather than when they hit level 30.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

The issue is that they're paying for content they (assumingly) won't be able to access until they hit level 50 and i90, rather than when they hit level 30.

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You keep throwing this "i90" around like it's as monumental as it used to be back at 2.0 and the game doesn't basically vomit gear that ilvl or higher at level 50 from the STORY dungeons...it's everywhere...

TBH feels like half the people who are "Angry" about this are just trying to kick up a fuss. Like the complaints in EQ2 that "You needed the current expac to play Beastlords!" lol.

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Originally Posted by Donarudo

They have the hest quest and such that teach you how the dungeon system works.

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Which to this day, has not taught me a single thing about any of the dungeons, especially the harder ones. The hests strategies are completely different and usually teach you NOTHING. Great idea in practice, not in reality.

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Originally Posted by Donarudo

They help tutorial tool is probably one of the better ones I have seen.

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What help tutorial? I've only been playing a month and i've yet to find it.

Granted, I respect your opinion however I must say that you should explain why your opinion works rather then just giving examples and saying your opinion. I actually explained why its a good thing to support my case - you have not. If you do indeed respect me, say the reasons. Not excuses.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Which to this day, has not taught me a single thing about any of the dungeons, especially the harder ones. The hests strategies are completely different and usually teach you NOTHING. Great idea in practice, not in reality.
What help tutorial? I've only been playing a month and i've yet to find it.

Granted, I respect your opinion however I must say that you should explain why your opinion works rather then just giving examples and saying your opinion. I actually explained why its a good thing to support my case - you have not. If you do indeed respect me, say the reasons. Not excuses.

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SYSTEM>ACTIVE HELP - Has everything you need to know about the game with descriptions. it covers everything from basic movements to communication with others and much more. Also I mentioned guildhest which shows new folks how to work with others in the dungeon system as well as what to expect.

Edit: I gave my opinion not excuses. Just like you gave your opinion. I merely stated I disagree with you and out of respect choose to to confirm I respect your differences.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

The issue is that they're paying for content they (assumingly) won't be able to access until they hit level 50 and i90, rather than when they hit level 30.

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You know what they say about assume, it makes an ass out of u and me. Again, is this impossible to get? compare that to housing, will that content be impossible to get if no new wards are put in?

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Originally Posted by Donarudo

SYSTEM>ACTIVE HELP - Has everything you need to know about the game with descritptions.

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That is a little extravagant, "everything?" you need to know about the game - that is impossible. That is also not a tutorial, that is pretty much the same descriptions as older games did, very vague on the reality.

It honestly taught me little to nothing about the true game. Lets say "Housing" for example, in most games you can group up with someone and invite them to your Inn room, in this game you cannot. It doesn't say you can't either.

All of this provides a "very basic description" of the real game. You would be an absolute fool to say otherwise.

It provides a very basic description. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

You keep throwing this "i90" around like it's as monumental as it used to be back at 2.0 and the game doesn't basically vomit gear that ilvl or higher at level 50 from the STORY dungeons...it's everywhere...

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I'm only throwing it around because it's a requirement. The second you hit level 50, chances are you will be at i45, which means you can not do the 2.1 dungeons (you can do the Low Level and Main Story Roulette though, so that's almost one Soldiery accessory a day). Depending on how much time you can spend in the game, hitting i90 could take you a day, or up to a week. Possibly longer.

Which now makes me think of another issue. People who can only play the game for up to (example) three hours a day. How long do you think it will take them to hit level 50 and then i90?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

That is a little extravagant, "everything?" you need to know about the game - that is impossible. That is also not a tutorial, that is pretty much the same descriptions as older games did, very vague on the reality.

It honestly taught me little to nothing about the true game. Lets say "Housing" for example, in most games you can group up with someone and invite them to your Inn room, in this game you cannot. It doesn't say you can't either.

All of this provides a "very basic description" of the real game. You would be an absolute fool to say otherwise.

It provides a very basic description. That is all.

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Thanks for the reply back. Have a good night.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

...?

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This is why the game is built on finding an FC and being able to ask for help. A recently new guy hit 50 in our FC tonight and we ran him through dungeons. Even multiple turns because its THAT easy to get him to i90+. He just hit 50 today and hes already in t9.

How long did it take him to hit level 50? and how often could he play per day?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

How long did it take him to hit level 50? and how often could he play per day?

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He works full time, hardly on but we as an FC when he could would jump in classes and run him through dungeons. Kill EVERYTHING. It only took him 1 month to get there.

It's easy to get 1-25 If you get the friend code thing. The EXP boost is godly amazing, and once you get to 30, your pretty much signed sealed and good to go.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I'm only throwing it around because it's a requirement. The second you hit level 50, chances are you will be at i45, which means you can not do the 2.1 dungeons (you can do the Low Level and Main Story Roulette though, so that's almost one Soldiery accessory a day). Depending on how much time you can spend in the game, hitting i90 could take you a day, or up to a week. Possibly longer.

Which now makes me think of another issue. People who can only play the game for up to (example) three hours a day. How long do you think it will take them to hit level 50 and then i90?

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Why does it matter how long it takes? This is a MMO meant to span over a period of time not be beaten in 2 days.

1-10 Slow leveling but with friend code = smooth.
10-20 Aleport Fates.
20-30 Quarrymill Area
30-40 Costa del Sol
40-50 Coerthas Fates.

The game exp is easy. Make a group with your FC - have them help you out, while they do lights or whatever. Grind it. Do Storymodes along the way, you don't have to touch any side quests in this game.

Fates will carry thee.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Here's the thing. It's not JUST FFXI's expansions that didn't make you do this to play new jobs... no MMO does that.

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New to the mmo genre, I take it? Other MMOs have done this in the past. And required a lot more then completing some story quests.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Which to this day, has not taught me a single thing about any of the dungeons, especially the harder ones. The hests strategies are completely different and usually teach you NOTHING. Great idea in practice, not in reality.
What help tutorial? I've only been playing a month and i've yet to find it.

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You learned nothing from guildhests? I take it then you ignored everything the hest NPCs tell you? Because the guildhests help you with a lot of the tactics you will actually need to use in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Granted, I respect your opinion however I must say that you should explain why your opinion works rather then just giving examples and saying your opinion.

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Examples are used to provide situations where (and show how) they work. As such, your argument doesnt make much sense.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I actually explained why its a good thing to support my case - you have not. If you do indeed respect me, say the reasons. Not excuses.

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Plenty of reasons have been given. Just because you choose to ignore them does not make them invalid.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

All of this provides a "very basic description" of the real game. You would be an absolute fool to say otherwise.

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They provide excellent explaination of all the subjects they relate to, actually.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

That is also not a tutorial, that is pretty much the same descriptions as older games did, very vague on the reality.

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Older games? Older games rarely gave any explaination.

All ethics aside, for anyone with friends that are looking to play but want to be specific jobs: tell them to do the free trial now. If a player won't like the base game then they just will not like the expansion or its jobs no matter what kind of bells and whistles are in place. The basic mechanics and know-how's will boil down to the same things we have now.

Helps support them being a good shopper as a bonus.

Let me add my voice to the growing number that thinks this is a bad idea (not that they will listen but it is worth a try).

I had envisioned the following:

In order to access the 3 new jobs you needed to have a character who already possessed at least 1 job stone and had at least gotten through the story to the point of being part of a Grand Company.

In Cortheas Central Highlands I would have placed the Machinist Trainer at Dragonhead, the Astrologian trainer at the Observatory, and the Dark Night Trainer either in the house on the hill in Skyfire or at worst Whitebrim.

This would have made perfect sense to me.

I wanted to do the Machinist on an alt and run the rest of the original story from 20(level you join the GCs) to the end, not have to do the entire original story then only get to see snippets of it on the new class.

I know they won't change it, and though I really love the game, I hope this decision blows up in their face.

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Originally Posted by Perogwin

I wanted to do the Machinist on an alt and run the rest of the original story from 20(level you join the GCs) to the end, not have to do the entire original story then only get to see snippets of it on the new class.

I know they won't change it, and though I really love the game, I hope this decision blows up in their face.

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Simple solution:

Uncheck the option to skip previously viewed cutscenes. Go do the story dungeons again and/or watch stuff in your inn room on your desired class.

(1) Because the game is not designed with alt characters in mind. You can have alts. But the game wasn't designed for it. Therefore any and all arguments using alts are moot.

(2) The game is designed with a heavy emphasis on story. It doesn't really care about the market that would throw the game away for being forced to do the story. It wants to attract players who enjoy the story. So any and all arguments saying you don't want to do the story is moot.

So anyone in the target market would finish the main story anyway. So the whole argument is moot.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

New to the mmo genre, I take it? Other MMOs have done this in the past. And required a lot more then completing some story quests.

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Uh no. I've been playing MMOs since they were text-based and called MUDs; nearly 20 years.

But ok, would you please name for me an MMO that required COMPLETION of the previous expansion's content before allowing access to a new expansion's classes? I like to learn things.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Uh no. I've been playing MMOs since they were text-based and called MUDs; nearly 20 years.

But ok, would you please name for me an MMO that required COMPLETION of the previous expansion's content before allowing access to a new expansion's classes? I like to learn things.

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World of Warcraft's death knight and Star Wars Galaxies jedi classes were both gated behind very long processes. They weren't gated by story but then very few MMO even have a story the way FFXIV does. They were gated behind long grinds for a new player though. I started WoW in Wrath of the Lich King and had to level a warlock to 55 before I could play a death knight... I wasn't complaining about it at all; it made the class feel special by requiring a time investment just to access it.

Most of you complaining about this are doing it on behalf of potential new players. You don't actually have a clue how new players will feel about having to unlock these jobs because you aren't going to be in that position.

People who are interested in the game, would be scouting the game out now. I mean if someone really was looking at the game for x class they would be seeking information on how to do it. They wouldn't be waiting until expansion hits to discover the gated issue. There is a week gap if you pre-order the game "I believe," of early access that would be giving that player enough time to push to that level...

The Storyline does not even force you to do Extreme Primals. Coil. Or anything that is a major issue. The only thing I see a problem is Titan hard, but that shouldn't be a roadblock for long with echo.

If new player doesn't like any of the classes now - chances are they won't like any of the classes in the expansion. If you get into it, A Machinest is pretty much a SMNer with a gun. At least how it looks to me.

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Originally Posted by Mirakumi

The Storyline does not even force you to do Extreme Primals. Coil. Or anything that is a major issue. The only thing I see a problem is Titan hard, but that shouldn't be a roadblock for long with echo.

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Technically, the Relic is not required. It is a side quest. So you don't even need to do any of the hard modes.

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Originally Posted by Mirakumi

People who are interested in the game, would be scouting the game out now.

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Most of new players (including my friend, who I have mentioned seveal times in this thread) have pre-ordered the bundle. They're not going to get it till June.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Technically, the Relic is not required. It is a side quest. So you don't even need to do any of the hard modes.

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The hard modes were added into the main scenario recently. Besides, the relic is a short diversion for an i90 weapon that can last you through the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Simple solution:

Uncheck the option to skip previously viewed cutscenes. Go do the story dungeons again and/or watch stuff in your inn room on your desired class.

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Those are the Snippets I was talking about - I am talking the non team story content like meeting the Sylphs the first time, or unraveling the mess in the Central Highlands with a different set of power.

Never Mind.....not even sure why I am trying to explain it to people who just don't get my meaning.

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Originally Posted by Bluevann

Most of new players (including my friend, who I have mentioned seveal times in this thread) have pre-ordered the bundle. They're not going to get it till June.

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They have enough time to get there. If they pre-ordered you should be able to do early access with them and help them level. Unless you don't care about your friends. as much as you preech

I think they may be setting themselves up for an exclusive mature community.

Harken back to FF11, the expansions only required a very brief dipping into a prior storyline or not at all.
The benefit of that is that even as the game matured there were always fresh faces doing past content.

If you have an expansion reliant on doing 100+ quests as a prerequisite, the newer people will leave out of frustration from queue times or dead empty zones.
Then when patch days come along, people rush to do the new dungeons and trials because they know after a fortnight the queues become impossibly long.

Then because we are left with a matured playerbase, our demands on the development team result in too many demands and expectations which the devs can't satisfy.

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Originally Posted by Perogwin

Those are the Snippets I was talking about - I am talking the non team story content like meeting the Sylphs the first time, or unraveling the mess in the Central Highlands with a different set of power.

Never Mind.....not even sure why I am trying to explain it to people who just don't get my meaning.

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I get your meaning just fine, what I don't get is the need people seem to have to make all sorts of characters just to level another job and why the devs would need to cater to that.

A Friend of mine also Just joined the game, this is his 3rd day and hes already 35. PLEASE explain how you don't have enough time to hit 50. What people are spouting is not true. This game gives CATERS to new people.
The truth is you guys probably just don't want to take the time to help the new player level and just want to zoom through content. So your friend is coming into the game. Go level astrologian and help him. ENCOURAGE him that this class is awesome so lets get to 50 faster and level as a group.

I don't understand your complaints.

Don't you want to be an awesome senapi?

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Edit Part:

I also don't want you saying oh, I'll be 30 so I won't be able to help him. BS Do fates, it won't hinder EXP and you can queue as healer to get him in dungeons Asap.
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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You learned nothing from guildhests? I take it then you ignored everything the hest NPCs tell you? Because the guildhests help you with a lot of the tactics you will actually need to use in dungeons.

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What... none of the guildhests are anything like the strategies in dungeons, they are closer to solo quests in the main storyline then anything else. They teach you absolutely nothing about dungeons or raids.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Plenty of reasons have been given. Just because you choose to ignore them does not make them invalid.

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Excuses are invalid. Whenever some one has to pick and choose words from a large paragraph, split them out to make a point then they have no point at all. They are simply taking words out of context and using them against you.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Older games? Older games rarely gave any explaination.

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Wrong, Older games teach you how to do things before you use them and teaches you how to use them. For example, Megaman, Zelda.

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Originally Posted by Mirakumi

They have enough time to get there. If they pre-ordered you should be able to do early access with them and help them level. Unless you don't care about your friends. as much as you preech

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So many free insults, thank you very much.

I'd help him if he decided to rush through the MSQ, but thing is, he doesn't. Both he and I like the story a lot, so much that I intend to make an alt to redo it with him. His plea (and mine), was that we'd be able to do it as MAC and DRK. He never bought ARR before because it had no great sword job, and preferred to stay in XI instead. Now that he knows of DRK, he's very ready to make the jump. But sadly, the way the HW jobs are set up now, he'll be forced to do the MSQ as a class he does not like. Can you really blame players with these feelings? I think not.

My friend also watched all the cutscenes. I ran each dungeon with him and let him watch it. You really are not making sense to me. Just level in the same area.

If He doesn't like any of the classes now what makes you so absolutely positive hes going to "LOVE" the new classes.

Also DRK in XI is different from the DRK in FFXIV. Ones a dd, ones a tank.

Also your friend should be happy to level another job to 50, at least he'll have good cross -class skills to pull over when he does level dark.
At 30 Usually everyone has some job at 15 for this.

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Originally Posted by Mirakumi

My friend also watched all the cutscenes. I ran each dungeon with him and let him watch it. You really are not making sense to me. Just level in the same area.

If He doesn't like any of the classes now what makes you so absolutely positive hes going to "LOVE" the new classes.

Also DRK in XI is different from the DRK in FFXIV. Ones a dd, ones a tank.

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He likes the great sword aspect of it, not the role itself. He's always played RPGs only because he is a great sword enthusiast. He doesn't need anything else to decide he loves a class.

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Originally Posted by Bluevann

He likes the great sword aspect of it, not the role itself. He's always played RPGs only because he is a great sword enthusiast. He doesn't need anything else to decide he loves a class.

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This is one part of the game I dislike, I wish for glamoured weapons that can be used for every class. For example Maces for Paladin/Gladiator, Hammers and Mauls, Greatswords for Warriors. Such like that.

Katana's for Ninja, ect ect...