DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

MNK is harder to play....


START THE BAAAATTTTLLLEE!!!

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Well I play both MNK and DRG. IMO MNKs has less buttons to press than DRGs but it all happens in a quick succession and you have to keep moving flank-rear-flank-rear, which I find easy because I'm used to strafing while attacking. DRG has more buttons to press but has the comfort of being able to stay in one spot after you're done with HT > ID, also you have to know the fight to an extent so you can time your Jumps. You wouldn't want to jump / dive after Titan does Tumult because WoL will follow after that. NINs can just go JOHN F**KING MADDEN and don't give a shit at their positions lol! So basically both MNKs and DRGs has an equal playing difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Truth_Chikara

We're on turn 12 and I'm doing 520ish as a monk at i113 and he's well up there around 500 as i116, granted the ilevel difference, but knowing how to play your class makes a huge difference. In my opinion most dragoons are just bad at being dragoons. Sure buff their magic res, other than that I see no reason to make them dps as hard as a monk.

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500 dps drg? ACT pics or it didn't happened!

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Originally Posted by Daweism

Why shouldn't DRG be top DPS? Why should Monk stay top DPS?

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Because if they want to follow the "tradition" of FF games, Monks / Black Belts are usually the best DPS in a game (Easy 9999 dmg attacks and high crit rate) but they're squishy as fack, 1 or 2 hits from a boss and they're done for - esp. most end-game bosses tend to attack twice in a row. Meanwhile, Dragoons / Lancers tend to have lots of utility (Such as Freya's 'Lancer' skillset from FF9) and tanky for being a DPS role but they deal med-high damage at best. The problem now is that DRGs has none of those utility and tankiness and they deal medium damage while MNKs in this game has utility, survivability, and being the #1 in DPS.

What I see being balanced is not about "who deals the most DPS" but it's more of a role issue. If MNKs are the best in long-term fights, DRGs should be best in burst / short-term fights (which people always said but they're actually not as good at bursting). A MNK with GL3 will deal more burst when facing adds and they don't need the ramp up time since with most end-game adds (i.e T7 1st Lamias and Prosector / T9 Golems, Ghost) that would took a while to kill, a DRG would apply Disembowel and HT, and not to mention the tank will still try to reposition the adds while doing so, meaning that an ID or HT would miss; or hold on to attack until you get a good spot, which is basically worth 1-2 GCDs. MNKs can immediately chain whatever they're doing and won't worry about missing their DK / TS when the mobs are being positioned. MNKs also has the benefit of Shoulder Tackle where they can immediately zoom to the add. DRGs have SSD and DFD but those skills are mostly weaved into the rotation instead of being "saved" because you don't have to be in a certain range like ST does. Saving your SSD / DFD is a loss in DPS. So when adds spawn and your SSD / DFD are on cd, you gotta run boy! I am experienced enough to turn around and predict the range for Elusive Jump but for some people that would be quite a feat to do especially when you're in a hurry.

So if MNK is the marathon-endurance type DPS, make DRGs the sprinter-type DPS. So yes they will lose DPS in the long run but in fights which has lots of adds, that would make people consider to bring DRGs to the fight because they can make short work of it.

So...no answers...

I have both a 50 DGN and a 50 MNK, working on my NIN at the moment.
And yes it's pretty bad....I still play my DGN on roulettes for the love I have for it, but I know I'm gimping myself and my pt going in as a DGN rather than as MNK.

Hell and my MNK is not even greatly geared and I usually mess up positionals, and even like that I still out-dps my higher Ilvl DGN while not making mistakes.

Lets no go down on the utility part...mantra and -10int is far more useful than disembowel.

Edit: oohh...just saw the devs response on the japanese forums...

Aw come on peeps, all of u are giving SE a huge headache, while all the most simple buff DRG needs is heavy thrust boost 50% dmg buff!

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Originally Posted by Empressia

Aw come on peeps, all of u are giving SE a huge headache, while all the most simple buff DRG needs is heavy thrust boost 50% dmg buff!

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50% HT, 20% Dis, and +200 potency to all of their GCD weaponskills!

500dps drg on t12? Must have hit some DFD on the fires + phoenix, AoE on adds only, and had the lb merged into their parse lol. I died on monk during t12 and wasn't at 500 (AND I DIED around the 11% transition where the phoenix flies off.) So I had weakness at the very last percentage.

My suggestion for DRG improvement:

- Change Dragonfire Dive into Dalamud Dive
- Change Chaos Thrust into Ravensblight
- Change Ring of Thorns to Iron Chariot
- Change Jump into Meteor Stream

/ggrekt

On a high level, looking at all the Damage Dealer Jobs, there is something to be said about:

* Is there a need or want for the "Glass Cannon" Archetype in Final Fantasy XIV? (Super High Damage, Super Low Defense)


That would be one way to separate out one DD Job vs. another (for overall feel).

If the "Glass Cannon" is still desirable, and SE has made Dragoons with such AWFUL Magic Defense (again, CRAFTERS have Higher Magic Defense than Dragoons LOL), then it might be worth considering boosting up Dragoons to truly have the "Cannon" portion of the Glass Cannon Archetype.

Give Dragoons Top DPS for the Risk of Dying the Easiest.

Just a thought.

Or, look to great suggestions for individual Action Tweaks people are suggesting in the thread (lots of great ideas)! :)

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Originally Posted by Kiara

On a high level, looking at all the Damage Dealer Jobs, there is something to be said about:

* Is there a need or want for the "Glass Cannon" Archetype in Final Fantasy XIV? (Super High Damage, Super Low Defense)


That would be one way to separate out one DD Job vs. another (for overall feel).

If the "Glass Cannon" is still desirable, and SE has made Dragoons with such AWFUL Magic Defense (again, CRAFTERS have Higher Magic Defense than Dragoons LOL), then it might be worth considering boosting up Dragoons to truly have the "Cannon" portion of the Glass Cannon Archetype.

Give Dragoons Top DPS for the Risk of Dying the Easiest.

Just a thought.

Or, look to great suggestions for individual Action Tweaks people are suggesting in the thread (lots of great ideas)! :)

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Yeah I don't mind making DRG a glass cannon. our mag defense is crap already so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

MNK is harder to play....


START THE BAAAATTTTLLLEE!!!

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Stacks can be maintained for the sake of substaining decent dps, except in fights where the boss likes to fly away. However, the struggle for heavy thrust and disembowel combo on dragoon is real.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

On a high level, looking at all the Damage Dealer Jobs, there is something to be said about:

* Is there a need or want for the "Glass Cannon" Archetype in Final Fantasy XIV? (Super High Damage, Super Low Defense)


That would be one way to separate out one DD Job vs. another (for overall feel).

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

Yeah I don't mind making DRG a glass cannon. our mag defense is crap already so yeah.

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That is what Black Mage is "supposed" to be.


And it makes no sense for Dragoons to be wearing the 2nd strongest "armor type" or at times even shared armor type with the tanks and yet somehow not be able to take the hits. Which is what one of the issues is.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GlassCannon
"I'm the caster, y'know! It's like I'm a cannon made out of glass. Like a... y'know, like a dainty figurine so ornately decorated you can't imagine how something so fragile manages to exist in this brutal, ugly world... And it makes you weep."
— 8-Bit Theater's Black Mage, on himself

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Originally Posted by zeth07

That is what Black Mage is "supposed" to be.


And it makes no sense for Dragoons to be wearing the 2nd strongest "armor type" or at times even shared armor type with the tanks and yet somehow not be able to take the hits. Which is what one of the issues is.

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It wouldn't be such a problem is the damage in end game content wasn't all magic damage. 100 of a dragoon' magic defense was thrown into its physical defense, for who knows what reason.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

* Is there a need or want for the "Glass Cannon" Archetype in Final Fantasy XIV? (Super High Damage, Super Low Defense)That would be one way to separate out one DD Job vs. another (for overall feel).

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I think the glass cannon type is a nice thing in single player games but comes with too many balancing issues in MMOs. Basically highly skilled players will dodge all the things so the lower def will be less of an issue in a game where someone else takes the hits for you (tanks). So in high lvl play everyone would just play the glass cannon type for the higher dps, excluding other dps.

I can only see this working the other way around, having higher def as a bonus, which could be a thing for DRG flavor wise (maybe as a trade off for lack of utility).

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Originally Posted by Danbo05

It wouldn't be such a problem is the damage in end game content wasn't all magic damage. 100 of a dragoon' magic defense was thrown into its physical defense, for who knows what reason.

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I feel like the actual design of said end game content is also at fault just due to the concept of how magic damage is usually represented as a "ranged attack" in other games, so having low magic defense would make sense in theory. Where Dragoons shouldn't even be put in those kinds of situations from a tactics standpoint to NEED the magic defense, since they are a close-range fighter. Which makes me slightly angry because of their comment a long time ago about adjusting fights to be more melee friendly.

If ranged/casters don't have to deal with melee ranged AoEs, then melee shouldn't have to deal with "magic" based attacks and those should be focused more outwardly towards the actual ranged/caster characters. Turn 7 is a pretty good example of this I think, but a lot of content has raid wide damage going out, or too many instances of players needing to stack together.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

My suggestion for DRG improvement:

- Change Dragonfire Dive into Dalamud Dive
- Change Chaos Thrust into Ravensblight
- Change Ring of Thorns to Iron Chariot
- Change Jump into Meteor Stream

/ggrekt

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Drg new T9 boss?

Funny idea thanks to NIN, all "jump/dive" abilities share recast timer, with a twist...

"Jump" sets recast low at 20 seconds, closes distance to target (no longer returns to starting position). After using Jump, can "combo" into Elusive jump, which resets the recast timer for jumps to 20 seconds again when used in this way.

"Spineshatter Dive" sets all recasts 30 seconds and additional effect is changed to silence.

"Dragonfire Dive" sets all recasts to 40 seconds and mod is switched to strength while maintaining magic damage AoE for flavor, now returns to original position after use.

"Elusive Jump" no longer lowers enmity, sets all "jump/dive" recasts to 10 seconds when used on it's own. 20 second cooldown when used as a follow-up for "Jump"

"Power Surge" Changes next "Jump" into "Super Jump". Cooldown remains the same at 90 seconds.

"Super Jump" A spinning jump attack that hits all targets within a range for 300 potency physical damage. Using "Super Jump" resets all "Jump/dive" cooldowns, allowing for a follow-up. Can only be used when under the effect of "Power Surge"

All the drg problems can be solved with a wyvern pet. Coming in Hevansward maybe?

"Full Thrust" should be changed to "Stardiver" from ffxi!

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Originally Posted by Zumi

All the drg problems can be solved with a wyvern pet. Coming in Hevansward maybe?

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I see what you did there

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Originally Posted by Zumi

All the drg problems can be solved with a wyvern pet. Coming in Hevansward maybe?

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If we get pets seriously I'm not gonna play the Job anymore. Just because we're "associated" with dragons doesn't mean we need to have one. Heck we're dragonslayers not a bunch of 14-year old girls playing pony quest adventure where you need to collect pets. Give pets to a frickin Beastmaster or something.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

If we get pets seriously I'm not gonna play the Job anymore. Just because we're "associated" with dragons doesn't mean we need to have one. Heck we're dragonslayers not a bunch of 14-year old girls playing pony quest adventure where you need to collect pets. Give pets to a frickin Beastmaster or something.

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Agreed. I dont see or understand where this "DRGs NEEEED Wyverns" thing comes from but it just dont make sense. Never has any DRG in FF (that I can recall or know of) have any pet wyverns.

As a i115DRG and soon to be i118 next week (going to have the new sands for my weap. and already hav the new oil for poetic ring), and who's been on t13 since last week, I can safely say that yes DRG do need a rework/buff.

As for positional, I don't want them to remove it, since I have no problem with them, sure from time to time I might miss a HT or a ID due to lack of focus or mechanics, but that rarely happens.

What I want for dragoon is to make them the true "Glass cannon" (in melee), because as of right now there's just the glass part.

And don't get me wrong I know a lot of people have a problem with their lackluster M.def.
and I do too, BUT (hear me out), that's one of the sacrifices for being this "glass cannon" type of job. It's true that they're not this all or nothing class right now, so having them have low M.def is pointless, however when they release the patch for DRG I hope that they leave the M.def as it is.

I'm not gonna go in-depth on how much potency they should raise for certain skill or make some skills off GCD, but I am going to propose an idea for the dev.

How bout making DRG the only job, where instead of crit dealing 150% we make it 200%

I know this might make Det. for DRG obsolete, but it's just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by RikuSama

I'm not gonna go in-depth on how much potency they should raise for certain skill or make some skills off GCD, but I am going to propose an idea for the dev.

How bout making DRG the only job, where instead of crit dealing 150% we make it 200%

I know this might make Det. for DRG obsolete, but it's just a suggestion.

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It wouldn't make det obsolete since crit is a det multiplier.

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Originally Posted by DenebPunkin

Agreed. I dont see or understand where this "DRGs NEEEED Wyverns" thing comes from but it just dont make sense. Never has any DRG in FF (that I can recall or know of) have any pet wyverns.

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Very true. Those people who suggests that we need a pet Dragon or something are just those nostalgic weaboos from FFXI that expects FFXIV is FFXI because apparently to them FFXI is the best game ever. Same as WoW players that keep wanting WoW to go back to its vanilla roots. It's like saying "OMG Final Fantasy XV sucks because there's no Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa, and the Ultima Weapon because FFVII was the best game ever!".

Seriously if that does happen I hope there's an NPC to refund all my poetic gears and an NPC to trade my Gae Bolg Nexus for Sphairai Nexus because I'm either switching to PLD or MNK.

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Originally Posted by DenebPunkin

Agreed. I dont see or understand where this "DRGs NEEEED Wyverns" thing comes from but it just dont make sense. Never has any DRG in FF (that I can recall or know of) have any pet wyverns.

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Um... final fantasy freaking TWO, maybe? The first appearance of dragoons? Also the core class feature from Dragoons in FFXI.

Edit: I should clarify, I don't even play DRG, and have no opinion on how to fix them. I'm just nitpicking on the point of "No DRGs ever having wyverns".

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Very true. Those people who suggests that we need a pet Dragon or something are just those nostalgic weaboos from FFXI that expects FFXIV is FFXI because apparently to them FFXI is the best game ever. Same as WoW players that keep wanting WoW to go back to its vanilla roots. It's like saying "OMG Final Fantasy XV sucks because there's no Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa, and the Ultima Weapon because FFVII was the best game ever!".

Seriously if that does happen I hope there's an NPC to refund all my poetic gears and an NPC to trade my Gae Bolg Nexus for Sphairai Nexus because I'm either switching to PLD or MNK.

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I think you missed the point.

DRG was awful in FFXI and the wyvern was the most derp and useless thing ever. I am rather confident that those guys are just full of sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by JarinArenos

Um... final fantasy freaking TWO, maybe? The first appearance of dragoons? Also the core class feature from Dragoons in FFXI.

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Those have different backstories. In FF2 Dragoons were elite dragon-riding knights that served the nation but were wiped by The Emperor because he knows that they are strong enough to oppose him if the people wanted to bring him down. The fact that they are dragon riders means that they are friends with dragons. The same goes with FFXI's Dragoons and they were really strong at release, but the devs "re-balanced" the class and made the Job one of the most useless things ever next to a blunt pizza-cutting wheel.

In FFXIV, DRGs are the most elite knights of the Holy See which were specially trained to fight dragons. They're even more elite than the Temple Knights which are basically the hand of the Archbishop. If you play the game and follow everything related to Ishgard in the Main Story, you understand that dragons are the very mortal enemies of the Ishgardians and be"friending" dragons is an unforgivable sin (Look up Shiva and the Heretics) and for some reason, makes you "crazy". So making the Job having a dragon companion would be shitting all over the DRG lore which, IMO has the best lore in this game next to SMN. Their armor "look" dragonic because it is forged with the blood / life-force of dragons - basically putting the "facing fire with fire" kind of idea.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

I think you missed the point.

DRG was awful in FFXI and the wyvern was the most derp and useless thing ever. I am rather confident that those guys are just full of sarcasm.

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From what I've read I do think that they're being serious. Seriously IMHO people who suggested that DRGs need a pet are people who never even DRG at all.

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Originally Posted by RikuSama

I'm not gonna go in-depth on how much potency they should raise for certain skill or make some skills off GCD, but I am going to propose an idea for the dev.

How bout making DRG the only job, where instead of crit dealing 150% we make it 200%

I know this might make Det. for DRG obsolete, but it's just a suggestion.

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I actually thought of something in the lines of DRGs having an innate buff (Like their "stance" but it's on everytime you're a DRG) where the effect is: "All of your weaponskills will deal double damage the first time it hits a new target". So it would be a neat thing for dealing with adds.

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Originally Posted by RikuSama

t13 DRG

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I'm more interested in :1) Did Terra Flare 1 shot ur drg?, 2) Whats the dps of ur drg in t13 and lastly 3) how much DPS gap between ur DRG and ur static's MNK/NIN?

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

In FFXIV, DRGs are the most elite knights of the Holy See which were specially trained to fight dragons. They're even more elite than the Temple Knights which are basically the hand of the Archbishop. If you play the game and follow everything related to Ishgard in the Main Story, you understand that dragons are the very mortal enemies of the Ishgardians and be"friending" dragons is an unforgivable sin (Look up Shiva and the Heretics) and for some reason, makes you "crazy". So making the Job having a dragon companion would be shitting all over the DRG lore which, IMO has the best lore in this game next to SMN. Their armor "look" dragonic because it is forged with the blood / life-force of dragons - basically putting the "facing fire with fire" kind of idea.



From what I've read I do think that they're being serious. Seriously IMHO people who suggested that DRGs need a pet are people who never even DRG at all.

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You're also leaving out the party that due to this last patch..... and being told that we pretty much aren't being told the 'entire story' behind dragon/mortal relations..... Not knowing what started the war between them to begin with... and to top it off, the fact that Ishgard is the cliche religious type Kingdom who calls everyone and their dog a heritic in JRPGs that never tell the whole side of a story.... can you honestly without a doubt, say that the entire 'dragons are bad, we are their mortal enemies' is something thats meant to be set fully in stone? The cliche of this set up in japanese games/anime/manga is so obvious in the direction it's going its laughable.

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

You're also leaving out the party that due to this last patch..... and being told that we pretty much aren't being told the 'entire story' behind dragon/mortal relations..... Not knowing what started the war between them to begin with... and to top it off, the fact that Ishgard is the cliche religious type Kingdom who calls everyone and their dog a heritic in JRPGs that never tell the whole side of a story.... can you honestly without a doubt, say that the entire 'dragons are bad, we are their mortal enemies' is something thats meant to be set fully in stone? The cliche of this set up in japanese games/anime/manga is so obvious in the direction it's going its laughable.

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Dragons aren't bad? Okay:
- They're the first to attack the Ishgardians ages ago, thus they were the one who started the conflict. Even the Dragoon order wasn't established until a squire of a fallen knight took his fallen master's spear and thrusted it to Nidhogg's eye, forcing the dragons to retreat. The eye eventually became the power source for the Dragoons and that squire became the very first Dragoon ever in history.
- Do you even play this game bruh? Twintania, Stone Vigil, the dragons in Coerthas, Svara, Bahamut - all dragons are bent on destruction. When at the point of the game where we met a "friendly" dragon? From most of the Ishgard quests explained to us, many of the NPCs bear grudge to dragons because their relentless and merciless attacks made them lost their family / loved ones. Even IF there were some "good" dragons, that to Ishgardians is like bringing Nazis to a Jewish Bar Mitzvah and say to the Jews "It's okay guys even tho these people are Nazis, they're good Nazis! I've known them for quite a while yeah they're chill don't worry!"
- All the ones supporting the sides of the dragons, the Heretics, based on their text bubbles and actions, are crazy / acting as if they were being tempered. That includes Nael Deus Darnus and Louisouix.
- In the Heavensward trailer, Ishgard got rekt by dragons thus forcing our hero to abandon the WAR class to suit-up Batman style into the almighty AF2 DRG with all the DRG homies already waiting there ready to thrust a Gae Bolg right up into the dragons' ass.

Yeah so dragons being "Evil" is not because the church of Ishgard's "propaganda" - dragons in this game are violent / evil. The cliche here is too obvious in the direction it's going it's laughable.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

I'm more interested in :1) Did Terra Flare 1 shot ur drg?, 2) Whats the dps of ur drg in t13 and lastly 3) how much DPS gap between ur DRG and ur static's MNK/NIN?

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Don't you use Tank LB3 for TeraFlare??

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Dragons aren't bad? Okay:
- They're the first to attack the Ishgardians ages ago, thus they were the one who started the conflict. Even the Dragoon order wasn't established until a squire of a fallen knight took his fallen master's spear and thrusted it to Nidhogg's eye, forcing the dragons to retreat. The eye eventually became the power source for the Dragoons and that squire became the very first Dragoon ever in history.
- Do you even play this game bruh? Twintania, Stone Vigil, the dragons in Coerthas, Svara, Bahamut - all dragons are bent on destruction. When at the point of the game where we met a "friendly" dragon? From most of the Ishgard quests explained to us, many of the NPCs bear grudge to dragons because their relentless and merciless attacks made them lost their family / loved ones. Even IF there were some "good" dragons, that to Ishgardians is like bringing Nazis to a Jewish Bar Mitzvah and say to the Jews "It's okay guys even tho these people are Nazis, they're good Nazis! I've known them for quite a while yeah they're chill don't worry!"
- All the ones supporting the sides of the dragons, the Heretics, based on their text bubbles and actions, are crazy / acting as if they were being tempered. That includes Nael Deus Darnus and Louisouix.
- In the Heavensward trailer, Ishgard got rekt by dragons thus forcing our hero to abandon the WAR class to suit-up Batman style into the almighty AF2 DRG with all the DRG homies already waiting there ready to thrust a Gae Bolg right up into the dragons' ass.

Yeah so dragons being "Evil" is not because the church of Ishgard's "propaganda" - dragons in this game are violent / evil. The cliche here is too obvious in the direction it's going it's laughable.

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They don't play this game.

A couple of small Final Coil spoilers but it's been almost 4 weeks anyway.

The current Dravanian dragons are pretty violent even if somewhat justified in their actions, but I don't think they've stated how violent or warmongering the dragons from past eras were. We know the Meracydian dragons got completely taken over and enslaved by the Allagan empire, including their last resort against them, and that the Allagans were the first to strike.

The Allagans' conquest was almost entirely motivated and orchestrated by the Void/Cloud of Darkness/LOLASCIANS. We know Ascians were around back in the 3rd era because Lahabrea remarks how it's been aeons since he last saw Bahamut during Cartenau. We also know the current Ishgard archbishop is in one way or another in cahoots with Elidibus, the current Ascian leader, and Ascians might as well be the ones who instigated them to go to war with the dragons 1000 years ago. I can't recall if they've stated which group was the first to start the Dravanian-Ishgard conflict though.

One reason for Ascians escalating conflict between dragons and men could be because Elidibus and Zodiark/Ophiuchus/Serpentarius are linked with the 13th Zodiac sign of the Serpent, and I guess there can only be one big bad giant scaly reptilian master race in Hydaelyn. So really the biggest cliche is Organization XIII, I mean Ascians did everything.

http://youtu.be/vCWiKMD6XfQ

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Originally Posted by Huntakinte

http://youtu.be/vCWiKMD6XfQ

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5-10 minute topic to say what they could do. 20 minutes to blab about nothing. no.

How I'd personally fix dragoon:

- Increase the Magic Defence on all LNC/DRG gear to be the same as casters/healers or at least equal to other melee.
- Get rid of Power Surge (it's an annoying ability anyway), buff jumps to compensate, and replace it with an ability that decreases magic damage taken for nearby party members. "Dragonsward" or something.
- Change the penalty for performing Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive on the "incorrect side" to a potency decrease.
- Add an additional effect to Dragonfire Dive which increases the duration of all DoTs casted by the party by 15 seconds.
- Slight increase in potency to Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel.

Also jumps are busted in final coil. DRGs will often take damage from "floor AoEs" such as Barofield on T11 or T10s electric field if they're unlucky with the server tick timing.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

snip.

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DUDE, spoiler alert, GARRR!!!!