AOE Toggle Needs to GO

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

People will find anything to complain about, I just wish the community team would learn how to say "no" to the stupid complaints.

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Second
/10 c

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Nah, that's right. In FFIV you can AoE Cure, Cura, Curaga and Curaja simply by selecting every teammate by pressing the opposite direction of your characters while casting. Same goes with offensive skills like Fire, Thunder, and so on.

Now, I'd like to see how Yoshi thinked about how doing this without the AoE toggle. I'm quite curious =)

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That must only be in the remakes. In the orginals for the SNES, IV/V/VI all used the 123 naming system.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Nah, that's right. In FFIV you can AoE Cure, Cura, Curaga and Curaja simply by selecting every teammate by pressing the opposite direction of your characters while casting. Same goes with offensive skills like Fire, Thunder, and so on.

Now, I'd like to see how Yoshi thinked about how doing this without the AoE toggle. I'm quite curious =)

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People forgot about those tho... I brought that up in the OTHER 'Please remove AOE toggle' Thread too. Being able to AOE or single target the same spell is not a new concept... All they need to do is rename the II's with -ra and the III's with -ga, add some mp/potency penalties to AOE and the nostalgia will return.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

That must only be in the remakes. In the orginals for the SNES, IV/V/VI all used the 123 naming system.

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It is in the Originals too. I've played original FF IV and VI, you can do that and even pick various targets by single selecting many to cast on. When you select a spell and push X once, it will create a blinking hand on the target. you can then go to other targets and push X once to add them to your target list. Double press X to start casting. it was funner and harder when your ATB was set to 'active' :)

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Originally Posted by Reika

It is in the Originals too. I've played original FF IV and VI, you can do that and even pick various targets by single selecting many to cast on. When you select a spell and push X once, it will create a blinking hand on the target. you can then go to other targets and push X once to add them to your target list. Double press X to start casting. it was funner and harder when your ATB was set to 'active' :)

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I think Dream was talking about the name of the spells, rather than the function, even if I don't care how they call them anyway =)

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Originally Posted by Renshi

I think Dream was talking about the name of the spells, rather than the function, even if I don't care how they call them anyway =)

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O. In that case its probably right :).

I proposed some improvements to the AOE user interface here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...8sample-pic%29

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

I hope by removing the toggle they're actually keeping it but making it lest noticeable somewhere else. I can't believe people actually complained about this.

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I hope this too
It's more FF like with switchable single/aoe /ok

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

I have wanted this from the start! Thanks for the heads up thats great to hear.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Hmm...not sure how I feel about this, but ok. Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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While that's a bit sad to hear, thanks for the clarification at any rate.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Thank you for the clarification, Bayohne.

I can't say that I agree with the decision the Development Team made. But I can understand that they may need more spells in the overall ability pool in order to balance the Armory System "improvements", and that getting rid of the AoE option essentially doubles the number of spells they can redistribute to achieve that balance.

It's too bad. AoE for Disciples Of Magic was one of the unique features of FFXIV. I'm sorrowful to see it go.

Well hopefully targetting is done a bit better, with the removal of aoe it should bring back the instant Heal > PT select without confirmation which will make single targetting healing better as AOE Heal will most likely have upped hate due to being its own skill, otherwise i'd be pointless to have a single cure.

Similar situation with AOE Nukes but instead of more hate you hit more targets so works lil differently.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Wonderful....... might as well kiss everything else goodbye too. Im pretty sure they plan on Doing away with the armory system, AC system, and having to set a skill/spell on your action bar in order to use it too. That way DoM can use every spell in their arsenal from FFXI-style mini-menu or just macros.

okies, thanks for the info Bayhone.

.................can I pitchfork rage now?

Edit: Also, HAI TSUGA & ROWYNE! :D

Edit again: Ok, NM. I'm over it. I'll save my full-blown bat-poo crazy rage for AFTER the change is implemented to see if I like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Hmmm interesting idea... does make me concerned slightly though, for example if they make Sleep single target only and you need to crowd control several mobs- hopefully cool-downs in this case would be adjusted for spells like this.

Glad that we're getting some feedback on this topic though, thanks Bayohne! ^^

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Sounds like buffs and cures could at least be automatic AoEs then.

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Originally Posted by normalforce

Sounds like buffs and cures could at least be automatic AoEs then.

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BAD BAD idea.

I fail to see why thus is an issue in the first place.

All too often people pull before I get buffs off. They are instant aggro. AoE debuffs are instant aggro.........

This now brings up the issue of having two spells that do the same exact thing.

So if I'm understanding correctly, they're going to be changing Tier II spells into AoEs, or something along those lines. As highlighted earlier in this thread, this will force us to equip the same spell twice, just to get the same effect that we currently have with the toggle. It's redundant.

Now if the entire AP and Action Bar system is being revamped I have less of a problem, but even if that's the case I still feel like this is a step backwards. The AoE Toggle was a great idea, and it streamlined an otherwise clunky process that is present in most MMOs.

It sounds like this idea is set in stone, and being worked into the new battle system, so we'll just have to see how it goes. Doesn't mean that I'm happy with the fact that the solution to user complaints almost always seems to be to remove features from the game. If we cut off every branch whenever we have an issue with it, eventually this game is just going to be a dead stump.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

BAD BAD idea.

I fail to see why thus is an issue in the first place.

All too often people pull before I get buffs off. They are instant aggro. AoE debuffs are instant aggro.........

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Truth.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

All too often people pull before I get buffs off. They are instant aggro. AoE debuffs are instant aggro.........

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True, but they are reworking hate algorithms.
I see all Defensive spells (Cure, Protect, Shell, Stoneskin, Shockspikes etc) being made automatically AoE and all Offensive spells (nukes, absorbs and crowd control spells) being made automatically single target only. The only exception I can think of would be Raise/Resurrect which should stay as single target.
I can live with this (although I had no problem with the AoE toggle in the first place and am slightly sad to see it taken away), but hate generation for Defensive spells for mages should pull less hate than they do at the moment. Timers on Crowd Control spells should be adjusted down for spells like Sleep especially. That's my opinion anyway.

All we can do is wait and see...

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

This now brings up the issue of having two spells that do the same exact thing.

As highlighted earlier in this thread, this will force us to equip the same spell twice, just to get the same effect that we currently have with the toggle. It's redundant.

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My understanding of Bayohne's reply is that we will not have two spells to do the same thing- i.e. an AoE and a single target version. I think they are simply adjusting spells to be just one thing or the other.

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Originally Posted by Shika

My understanding of Bayohne's reply is that we will not have two spells to do the same thing- i.e. an AoE and a single target version. I think they are simply adjusting spells to be just one thing or the other.

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Right, which basically means that if you don't want to hit all of the coblyns that are surrounding you, you're going to have to equip Aero I, and Aero II, because Aero II will be AoE, while Aero I isn't. It's the same problem as making Aeroga II ala XI's system. All I want is one version of the spell on my bar. I'm a CON, I get spells of every element, and I don't want my bar gummed up with two spells of the same element in varying strengths just so that I don't aggro every mob in my general vicinity.

If they just made every spell AoE then CON would easily be the most frustrating experience ever, for everyone.

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Originally Posted by viion

Well hopefully targetting is done a bit better, with the removal of aoe it should bring back the instant Heal > PT select without confirmation which will make single targetting healing better as AOE Heal will most likely have upped hate due to being its own skill, otherwise i'd be pointless to have a single cure.

Similar situation with AOE Nukes but instead of more hate you hit more targets so works lil differently.

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You still need to choose your spell target after activating the spell

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

Right, which basically means that if you don't want to hit all of the coblyns that are surrounding you, you're going to have to equip Aero I, and Aero II, because Aero II will be AoE, while Aero I isn't. It's the same problem as making Aeroga II ala XI's system. All I want is one version of the spell on my bar. I'm a CON, I get spells of every element, and I don't want my bar gummed up with two spells of the same element in varying strengths just so that I don't aggro every mob in my general vicinity.

If they just made every spell AoE then CON would easily be the most frustrating experience ever, for everyone.

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Oh I quite agree with you, if that is what they end up doing. However I'm still not sure that they will implement Offensive spells in that way... at least I hope not.

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Originally Posted by Shika

Oh I quite agree with you, if that is what they end up doing. However I'm still not sure that they will implement Offensive spells in that way... at least I hope not.

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Is there any other way?

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Is there any other way?

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Well as I previously stated I personally think they will do this:

"I see all Defensive spells (Cure, Protect, Shell, Stoneskin, Shockspikes etc) being made automatically AoE and all Offensive spells (nukes, absorbs and crowd control spells) being made automatically single target only. The only exception I can think of would be Raise/Resurrect which should stay as single target.
I can live with this (although I had no problem with the AoE toggle in the first place and am slightly sad to see it taken away), but hate generation for Defensive spells for mages should pull less hate than they do at the moment. Timers on Crowd Control spells should be adjusted down for spells like Sleep especially. That's my opinion anyway."

Meaning that I think to get around it they will make all nuking spells single target only. I know some mobs are grouped together in leves so for CON this will be a PITA, but a lot of people hate the fact that outside of leves at the moment they accidently catch adds with spells outside of the main mob being targeted by the party and losing SP etc.

I'm not saying that I agree with this, but this is personally how I see them initially adjusting spells.
Of course it is just speculation :)

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Aww, that's just boring but oh well, I've got used to it in Aion.

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wait. That's the main reason on why I said it's boring!

Dont remove offensive AOE nukes for the sake of people not being able to control aoe, that would piss me off and just reduce the game even more.

When at Broken Water with the 100 other people doing the same leve, and lagging out because our mobs all pop in the same place ( or because someone is just running round spawning all their mobs before they go back and kill them) removing the additional action of Z on Z off is a great move in my book!
Thank you Dev team!

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I prodded for some more details about the system to hopefully give you guys a better understanding at what the current plan is. The current policy of allowing spells to be cast both as an individual-target and AoE will be done away with. During the armoury system improvements spells will be evaluated and determined whether they will be an individual target spell or an AoE spell on a case by case basis.

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Hi All (and Thanks Bayohne for the clarification!) ;),

There are definitely pros and cons to both systems, but one thing that this could do is allow Spells to have more unique characteristics.

I know the argument right now for many is "Well Cure II (w/ AOE Toggle) = Curaga, it just takes an extra slot now." That may be true but other types of attacks / skills are separated this way currently in various games.

For example, in most FPS games, there's a:

* Hand Pistol - Single Target
* Shotgun - Spread Shot, Short Distance, Massive Damage
* Rocket Launcher - Huge AOE, Big Damage

Would it be nice to have a Hand Pistol with an AOE Toggle, to hit 1 Enemy, or All Enemies in an AOE Cone? Sure. Would it be nice to have a Rocket Launcher that was Single Target and did massive damage to a Single Target with No Splash Damage? Or Toggle it to be AOE? Sure.

But that's what makes the Hand Pistol, or the Shotgun, or the Rocket Launcher what it is.

Same for Gladiator Weaponskills like Red Lotus (Single Target) vs. Circle Slash (AOE) vs. Luminous Spire (Hits 1 Target, AOE Blind). Would it be nice to AOE Toggle Red Lotus or any Weaponskill whenever you want to? Sure.

I think having these differences (without AOE Toggle) is what might make the Mages feel more unique, with different spells. Let's say, Cure I, II, will be Single Target, but, say a new Spell, White Wind is a curative spell that heals everyone in an area for an amount inbetween Cure I and II (so a 1.5 level of strength). That's the inherent quality and uniqueness of "White Wind" then.

Now, we can only hope that the Battle Team has more interesting effects / augmentations than just making 1 spell Single Target, and 1 spell AOE. But like the examples above, I can see why they want to do away with the toggle. I'm fine with either system, but let's see what the changes are to all the Mage Spells before we go crucifying the team.

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Originally Posted by viion

Dont remove offensive AOE nukes for the sake of people not being able to control aoe, that would piss me off and just reduce the game even more.

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This can not be reiterated enough.

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it allows the dev team to introduce 'traditional' final fantasy spells (e.g. Fira, Firaga, etc.) and make the Disciples of Magic a bit more unique from one another (i.e. Thaumaturge may not be able to use AoE Conjurer spells if they change the system in place.) On the other hand, it creates the issue where you're equipping two or more of the same spells, thus eating up space on the action bar that could be used for other skills. To be honest, I don't think it's hard at all to toggle the AoE of spells on and off. If tapping 'z' on the keyboard or the designated button on the controller before you cast something is too hard, there are macros that can alleviate that. It's not that hard to control AoE...

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Originally Posted by Embers

When at Broken Water with the 100 other people doing the same leve, and lagging out because our mobs all pop in the same place ( or because someone is just running round spawning all their mobs before they go back and kill them) removing the additional action of Z on Z off is a great move in my book!
Thank you Dev team!

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How in that case does toggling AoE on or off help? The last I checked, you can't attack another person's leve spawned enemies.

SE should take me to dinner and wear a condom before they totally F*CK me. Seriously I won't be down for the removal unless they tell me that its gonna balance out with AP. I'm not sit there deciding what to put in my action bar. IN XI this wasn't a problem, macros were useful for battle, and..omg this is amazing....I could access any spell I didn't macro from my menu. In this game, seriously eff this.

More spells probably less action slots/points, that's what this sounds like to me.
I would like classic FF spells, but I don't want to be punished for those who hopped on this bandwagon (unlike OP) just because they are too lazy to press Z or they are elitist and think this would improve strategy. At this moment in time choosing when to toggle z on/off is part of my strategy and I feel it is a part of my job as a mage to predict when is a safe time to use them. If you don't play a mage class, I would think you're opinion is moot.

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Originally Posted by Shika

Hmmm interesting idea... does make me concerned slightly though, for example if they make Sleep single target only and you need to crowd control several mobs- hopefully cool-downs in this case would be adjusted for spells like this.

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I think this is great news, honestly. Everything having the option to be single target / AoE is a little crazy. Buffs really should just be AoE, while AoE CC like sleep is a little overpowered (really should be single target only).

Spells needed a reevaluation like this to make party play more challenging and encourage us to make better choices instead of the LOL-AoE fest it is now. *thumbs up*

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Originally Posted by Felis

You still need to choose your spell target after activating the spell

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Hopefully that'll be reevaluated too. FFS, if I have the person targeted, that's who I want to cast the spell on. Redundant redundancies are redundant.

Target-of-target {Can I have it?}

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Originally Posted by normalforce

How in that case does toggling AoE on or off help? The last I checked, you can't attack another person's leve spawned enemies.

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The lag caused by everyone around causes the UI to go extremly slowly,
Press cure
wait for green button
Press Z
wait for spell to cast

Reducing the steps to cast the spell will help in the situation I exampled,
nothing to do with hitting someone elses mobs

i smell an official poll coming when it comes time to implement this....

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Originally Posted by Embers

The lag caused by everyone around causes the UI to go extremly slowly,
Press cure
wait for green button
Press Z
wait for spell to cast

Reducing the steps to cast the spell will help in the situation I exampled,
nothing to do with hitting someone elses mobs

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It would be still:
Press cure
wait for sub target circle
Press Return
wait for spell to cast

Terrible idea that sounds like it is born from someone who cant play the game with any sort of focus. If they even want to consider this they MUST assign your party members to F2-F8, they must increase the size of the action bar to fit multiple versions of spells and increase how many action points you have overall. They have to tony down every mobs aoe ability and reevaluate the fighting groups of mobs all the time. I cant believe that this even got the attention of the devs it is one of the most unimportant issues with the game.

PLEASE SHUT DOWN THESE FORUMS IT'S JUST BITCHING AND CRAPPY IDEAS CAN GET TO MUCH ATTENTION.
JUST SURPRISE US AND DESTROY THIS MISERABLE PLACE WE CALL A FORUM.

P.S.- Can't wait for 1.18 ^^

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Originally Posted by Embers

The lag caused by everyone around causes the UI to go extremly slowly,
Press cure
wait for green button
Press Z
wait for spell to cast

Reducing the steps to cast the spell will help in the situation I exampled,
nothing to do with hitting someone elses mobs

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*sigh* Then you could have just used a macro. I guess its a moot point as they're removing the AoE toggle.