Astragalos

I don't know if it is just Primal but Astragalos is pretty much non-existent and we are back to 72 man shatter. Occasionally get 72 man seize.

It is overall just NA data centers.
All Japanese data centers are showing opposite and Rival Wing discussion is 300% active there than we are.
Each of Japanese data centers have maybe about 30 Frontline matches each week.

I usually queue for all maps of Frontlines + Astragalos, and believe it or not, I managed to enter a Borderland's Ruins (Secure) twice and not even once entered Astragalos. I'm on Aether Datacenter.

Depends what the bots are queueing into.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

All Japanese data centers are showing opposite and Rival Wing discussion is 300% active there than we are.

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Interesting. Looks like their players foremost seek fun in pvp when our players - effectiveness. In result "pro-pvpers" do not go there because no premades there, bots and exp farmers - because no roulette bonus. If SE will add Astralogos roulette it will at least alive again.

Its not just American Datacenters. Astralagos is COMPLETELY Dead on EU-Servers too. Once i waited 4 Hours on Saturday-prime-time. Every time i try to queue it shows 30 mins +

I guess the reason for that is the Design that favoured Healers way to much so half the Participants in there were Healers ---> Dps and Tank players hated it and left.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Its not just American Datacenters. Astralagos is COMPLETELY Dead on EU-Servers too. Once i waited 4 Hours on Saturday-prime-time. Every time i try to queue it shows 30 mins +

I guess the reason for that is the Design that favoured Healers way to much so half the Participants in there were Healers ---> Dps and Tank players hated it and left.

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More-so the fact the design of the mode is just generally bad. It's like a really horrid MMO version of a MOBA-style game. Also GCvGCvGC in general is terrible design.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Its not just American Datacenters. Astralagos is COMPLETELY Dead on EU-Servers too. Once i waited 4 Hours on Saturday-prime-time. Every time i try to queue it shows 30 mins +

I guess the reason for that is the Design that favoured Healers way to much so half the Participants in there were Healers ---> Dps and Tank players hated it and left.

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It wasn't just this though. I really enjoyed the format....

But then the bots invaded.....so I stopped.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

But then the bots invaded.....so I stopped.

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I never saw any bots in Astragalos. I was accused of being a bot because I hate operating mechs and I refuse to go center.

The mode is not fun or enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I never saw any bots in Astragalos. I was accused of being a bot because I hate operating mechs and I refuse to go center.

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That was another one. The salt.

and the over obsessive need to capture center...

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

More-so the fact the design of the mode is just generally bad. It's like a really horrid MMO version of a MOBA-style game. Also GCvGCvGC in general is terrible design.

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I am strongly disagree.
Design in general is not bad, it is the way we behaved screw up the mode.
In general English players prefers to play with certain advantage or cookie cutter.
This is why this mode is dead on EU and NA.
Especially 3 way combats significantly reduce the issue of premades vs pugs.
You will always have a 3rd faction screw up the premade's dominance over pug group

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

That was another one. The salt.

and the over obsessive need to capture center...

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Mine was the Mech AoE's. I would be clearly out of the AoE but then would die. I would operate a mech and they would do the same thing and live. The latency/lag in the mode was infuriating. It was one thing to be killed by an LB in 3.0 but when I was clearly out of range from the AoE but still get hit just pissed me off. Also that kills didn't really mean anything in the mode.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Design in general is not bad, it is the way we behaved screw up the mode.

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I will strongly disagree with you. The design is awful.

My frustration with the design is that it is so heavily focused on mechs. Which don't really require much skill if any at all.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Mine was the Mech AoE's. I would be clearly out of the AoE but then would die. I would operate a mech and they would do the same thing and live. The latency/lag in the mode was infuriating. It was one thing to be killed by an LB in 3.0 but when I was clearly out of range from the AoE but still get hit just pissed me off. Also that kills didn't really mean anything in the mode.



I will strongly disagree with you. The design is awful.

My frustration with the design is that it is so heavily focused on mechs. Which don't really require much skill if any at all.

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That's totally fair. Like I said I liked the format, but it definitely was in need of more tweaks then they seem willing to do.

Personally I liked the mech mechanic since it stood out a bit more than just standard moba fare. However, it required too much *sigh* teamwork to be super effective. As much as I'd love the amount of team work it takes, making all of those people work together, is a very tall order and simply not realistic. I mean it's hard enough for 24 mans....

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I am strongly disagree.
Design in general is not bad, it is the way we behaved screw up the mode.
In general English players prefers to play with certain advantage or cookie cutter.
This is why this mode is dead on EU and NA.
Especially 3 way combats significantly reduce the issue of premades vs pugs.
You will always have a 3rd faction screw up the premade's dominance over pug group

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Yet we can "behave" in other mobas just fine (astralagos is simply a variation of the standard moba fare). But this mode did have some issues that were never addressed in terms of balance and gameplay. While the user bases may vary the game mode was the same.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I find mecha is not as threatening as you claim they are as they are solo-able by meele job of any kind.
The established cycle was supposed to be mecha > range > meele > mecha, but over-populated healers disrupted this cycle.

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Because they refused to fix the overwhelming advantage healers had. Which is a design flaw.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I will strongly disagree with you. The design is awful.
My frustration with the design is that it is so heavily focused on mechs. Which don't really require much skill if any at all.

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I find mecha is not as threatening as you claim they are as they are solo-able by meele job of any kind.
The established cycle was supposed to be mecha > range > meele > mecha, but over-populated healers disrupted this cycle.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

Yet we can "behave" in other mobas just fine (astralagos is simply a variation of the standard moba fare). But this mode did have some issues that were never addressed in terms of balance and gameplay. While the user bases may vary the game mode was the same.

Because they refused to fix the overwhelming advantage healers had. Which is a design flaw.

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I have point out the potential problem of healers have high potency damage spell for no apparent reason from the Feast-balancing.
It is a left-over from 3.0 system because healer need a damage spell for PvE.
A healer job should not be able to heal, absorb damage, crowd control and output damage at the same time.
To me this is balance flaw instead of design flaw, just imagine the backlash from Feast side.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I have point out the potential problem of healers have high potency damage spell for no apparent reason from the Feast-balancing.
It is a left-over from 3.0 system because healer need a damage spell for PvE.
A healer job should not be able to heal, absorb damage, crowd control and output damage at the same time.
To me this is balance flaw instead of design flaw, just imagine the backlash from Feast side.

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If youre going to make a uniform class system in the way they did in 4.0, you have to figure in everything when designing a new mode including the new damage/healing that classes can do.

That's still a design flaw in my book. They simply designed this with the classes separate when it should've been looked at as a whole. I think the mech's may have been the answer to the disparity however, again, balancing wasn't done enough to bring a synergy to both out of mech and in mech people combined with the objectives.

Also the issue wasn't damage for healers, it was the fact they could outheal most single burst damage on themselves or on a teammate. It was just too much healing. I can deal with damage. But no healer should be nigh unstoppable in healing power. A good group of healers was just a wall.....esp on mammets that did tower damage. I am aware you could take a healer down with a well tuned group, however once everyone started running mostly healers....gg game over. I'll just go beat my face into a wall now....

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I find mecha is not as threatening as you claim they are as they are solo-able by meele job of any kind.
The established cycle was supposed to be mecha > range > meele > mecha, but over-populated healers disrupted this cycle.

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You mean mechs don't one shot you? You never die when you are clearly out of the aoe marker? And by clear I mean outside the orange well in advance of the ability going off. Yeah lets have a mode where players get one shot and it is due to latency. That's a great game design. I solo'ed many mechs but to say they aren't threatening is... just idiotic since the mode is built around getting mechs.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I have point out the potential problem of healers have high potency damage spell for no apparent reason from the Feast-balancing.
It is a left-over from 3.0 system because healer need a damage spell for PvE.
A healer job should not be able to heal, absorb damage, crowd control and output damage at the same time.

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High Potency? That is a laughable claim. I also only know of one healer class that can do all 4 of those.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

You mean mechs don't one shot you? You never die when you are clearly out of the aoe marker? And by clear I mean outside the orange well in advance of the ability going off. Yeah lets have a mode where players get one shot and it is due to latency. That's a great game design. I solo'ed many mechs but to say they aren't threatening is... just idiotic since the mode is built around getting mechs.

High Potency? That is a laughable claim. I also only know of one healer class that can do all 4 of those.

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As a meele, no and it is simply because mecha aoe is clone shaped (only need to step left/right or walk into mecha), but I can see it is an issue for range.
As a range, the moment you are seeing you inside the zone, you are dead already, that is just how it is, otherwise range has no counter there.
Like I said, it is a cycle of range > meele >mecha > range.
There is this cycle where you rarely see meele can beat a MCH/BRD at same skill level.

Healer potency issue, one is not an issue of course, but what happened with Astragalos is number of healers.
You literally has no escape chance in front of WHM and AST as bind and gravity doesnt stack it is on different DR.
This makes Astragalos literally no fun for meele or tanks

Everyone seems to have their own reason to not que Astrgalos, mine is clearly over populated healers, you on other hand is mecha.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

As a meele, no and it is simply because mecha aoe is clone shaped.

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You are forgetting Stun and instant kill from Brute Justice.

So one WHM and one AST could keep you occupied for 2-4 seconds. Bind is only as efficient as a tool to get away or keep you from getting away. But more often than not someone follows up with an attack breaking the bind. Healers had an impossible time downing mechs. You could have a team of 24 healers and they would most likely lose.

Also Astragalos is not fun for other reasons for me. It is one of the least PvP oriented modes.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

You are forgetting Stun and instant kill from Brute Justice.

So one WHM and one AST could keep you occupied for 2-4 seconds. Bind is only as efficient as a tool to get away or keep you from getting away. But more often than not someone follows up with an attack breaking the bind. Healers had an impossible time downing mechs. You could have a team of 24 healers and they would most likely lose.

Also Astragalos is not fun for other reasons for me. It is one of the least PvP oriented modes.

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I did take Brutal Justice in account and pilot on there.
Consider its rareness and how small the stun circle, it is not really an issue unless you are stationary at all the time.

A team of 24 healers is an extreme illustration and I doubt it will ever happen.
It nevertheless didn't change the fact that over populated healers on Astragalos is one of the primary reason that hold this mode back

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

You are forgetting Stun and instant kill from Brute Justice.

So one WHM and one AST could keep you occupied for 2-4 seconds. Bind is only as efficient as a tool to get away or keep you from getting away. But more often than not someone follows up with an attack breaking the bind. Healers had an impossible time downing mechs. You could have a team of 24 healers and they would most likely lose.

Also Astragalos is not fun for other reasons for me. It is one of the least PvP oriented modes.

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Honestly, I see this all the time. People dying randomly to mechs for NO reason at all. They're EASY to kite, easy to dodge. Dodge being the key word here. It's not PvE, don't wait for the AoE circle then expect to move out. You NEED to understand the mechanics of the game and move appropriately to avoid getting killed. If you stand there moving only for big nono spots only then you're gonna have a tough time in any type of PvP no matter the game.

I liked it initially. It was a cool concept but people refused to work together. I had macros I would use to explain stuff and send directions but people refused them and then it just got stagnant. Couple that with some weird balancing changes I pretty much gave up on pvp. The one time I tried pvp again was the new map and I had horrible lag from the experience and ultimately retired from it. I liked pvp at the end of heavensward but that was the last time I found it to be good.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

Honestly, I see this all the time. People dying randomly to mechs for NO reason at all. They're EASY to kite, easy to dodge. Dodge being the key word here. It's not PvE, don't wait for the AoE circle then expect to move out. You NEED to understand the mechanics of the game and move appropriately to avoid getting killed. If you stand there moving only for big nono spots only then you're gonna have a tough time in any type of PvP no matter the game.

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No other mode do you get one shot due to an AoE. I understand the mechanics very well and AoE markers are AoE markers no reason they should function differently between PvP and PvE. There is more than enough time to move out of them as the game shows I am clearly out of them. Astragalos is the only mode where I remotely have issues.

Isn't justification for how horrible the mode is and it isn't the only reason I dislike Astragalos. I could go stand in the middle if I was that concerned about mechs.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Isn't justification for how horrible the mode is and it isn't the only reason I dislike Astragalos. I could go stand in the middle if I was that concerned about mechs.

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Did you try attack the enemy base?
I usually try to attack their base to delay their mecha spawn
It is a different level of fun and challenge.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Did you try attack the enemy base?
I usually try to attack their base to delay their mecha spawn
It is a different level of fun and challenge.

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I go for towers when towers or up/base when towers down. Still PvE'ing in a PvP mode. Which is the primary reason this mode is unfun. The only real incentive to PvP is to kill mechs or keep people off your tower/base. They should award CE absorb for getting enemy kills sort of like the point absorb in Seize/Shatter.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I go for towers when towers or up/base when towers down. Still PvE'ing in a PvP mode. Which is the primary reason this mode is unfun. The only real incentive to PvP is to kill mechs or keep people off your tower/base. They should award CE absorb for getting enemy kills sort of like the point absorb in Seize/Shatter.

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Astagalos is nevertheless still under the Leauge of Legend framework; therefore it may seems to you attacking pillar is like PvEing.
This is the main reason why I am suggesting direct base attacking.
The mecha will always be in your field of vision in which you can avoid they back stab from behind.
Their zone attack also will be restricted by the layout of the base.
If this mode is revived by 4.3 roulette, it is highly recommend to try this strategy.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Astagalos is nevertheless still under the Leauge of Legend framework; therefore it may seems to you attacking pillar is like PvEing.

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I honestly will only do roulette for 31 more wins and then I will never touch the mode again. Until they make kills worth CE this mode will be lackluster and the bottom of the 3. I would rather endless days of Shatter then step into Astra. it is amazing how one new mode will change the perception of previous nodes.

you can actually still get queues for this to pop?

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

you can actually still get queues for this to pop?

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Didn't read the OP...

It's not so much because the mode is bad, it's rather because they quit updating it. Everyone who hit it hard got what they needed and moved on. SE only every really promotes Feast with their continuous rewards so all the hardcore PvPers went back to that. Bots have always done shatter solely because it's the fastest mode compared to anything else, not because it's more fun. Bots gave shatter the faster queue and thus everyone else who remained went back to Shatter for the faster queue. I can't honestly say I've ever heard anyone honestly express Shatter being a better PvP mode. It's just got the fastest queues because of the bots; and being the fastest to end the match with, in the shortest amount of time. On rare occasions, the bots can even carry teams to victory with their focus on objectives over kills.

Imo, Rival Wings is my favorite PvP mode out there and I wish they kept updating it. Who cares if it's LoL/MOBA like. I enjoy the verity, but the verity stops when the updates stop. When all the rewards and balances cater towards a single game mode, Feast, of course it's going to die. I would LOVE to see them give more life back into Rival Wings, but sadly PvP is balanced around Feast. Not Rival Wings. Not Shatter. Not Seal Rock. It's balanced around Feast.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

No other mode do you get one shot due to an AoE. I understand the mechanics very well and AoE markers are AoE markers no reason they should function differently between PvP and PvE. There is more than enough time to move out of them as the game shows I am clearly out of them. Astragalos is the only mode where I remotely have issues.

Isn't justification for how horrible the mode is and it isn't the only reason I dislike Astragalos. I could go stand in the middle if I was that concerned about mechs.

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So basically you're saying you don't want to adapt to how the mode plays, so you're upset and want the mode to change to how you want it?

Just looking for clarification.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

So basically you're saying you don't want to adapt to how the mode plays, so you're upset and want the mode to change to how you want it?

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I am not upset. If SE wants more participants than they should evaluate how the mode plays. I am voicing my opinions on why I dislike the mode. Mechs are one. Lack of Kills being worth something being another, PVE objectives another, etc, etc.

Also to answer your question. Yes I will refuse to play the mode unless SE modifies how the mode plays. Just like almost every other player on primal right now are voting with their time. Which is why the queues are dead. We all have our different reasons. Some are healers which I don't have a problem with. Mine are listed above.

SE could modify the mode to satisfy 95% of the population and I can still dislike the mode which I think would be 100% better than the current status quo. What's sad is tyou are sitting there typing picking apart reasons why I dislike a mode when you aren't even looking at why the mode should be changed. It's dead Jim. The mode is dead.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I am not upset. If SE wants more participants thanthey should evaluate how the mode plays. I am voicing my opinions on why I dislike the mode. Mechs are one. Lack of Kills being worth something being another, PVE objectives another, etc, etc.

Also to answer your question. Yes I will refuse to play the mode unless SE modifies how the mode plays. Just like almost every other player on primal right now are voting with their time. Which is why the queues are dead. We all have our different reasons. Some are healers which I don't have a problem with. Mine are listed above.

SE could modify the mode to satisfy 95% of the population and I can still dislike the mode which I think would be 100% better than the current status quo. What's sad is tyou are sitting there typing picking apart reasons why I dislike a mode when you aren't even looking at why the mode should be changed. It's dead Jim. The mode is dead.

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It's dead because the player base can't figure out anything that requires even a little bit of thinking and teamwork.

I honestly can't think of what SE can do to get people to play PvP in FFXIV. Every mode eventually dies because people join for the incentives then leave once they realize it requires thinking to be played properly. Is Astralagos perfect? No. But they already hit what people complained about (healer stacking, mid being the end all be all) and people STILL won't play it because, again, it requires COMMUNICATION and teamwork.

People complained about PvP being too complicated and now we have this button mashing clown fiesta and people STILL don't PvP.

People wanted team v team instead of GC v GC v GC and, guess what, it's STILL dead.

The problem isn't wholly on SE, it's also on the community and the fact that most players just don't like PvP which is sad, PvP is all that keeps me logging in and after the last update I barely log in anymore.

FFXIV is a CASUAL game. Even our end game population is small, it's the biggest it has even been now because SE keeps making it easier and easier for people to try it. SE keeps trying to keep everyone happy which just isn't possible.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

It's dead because the player base can't figure out anything that requires even a little bit of thinking and teamwork.

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Seize and Shatter don't require thinking and teamwork? This is where the rest of your argument falls apart. These modes are lively and active. Astra is just a bad mode.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Seize and Shatter don't require thinking and teamwork? This is where the rest of your argument falls apart. These modes are lively and active. Astra is just a bad mode.

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"Live and active" with only one party per team.

This isn't active, this is just the lesser of two evils.

They require LESS thinking though since there are giant markers (Ice, tomes) telling you where to go.

Active was when Seal Rock first came out and there was an actual community in it with people whom you recognized by name.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

actual community in it with people whom you recognized by name.

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I see people I recognize by name regularly. Also there are more than 1 team regularly.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

"Live and active" with only one party per team.

This isn't active, this is just the lesser of two evils.

They require LESS thinking though since there are giant markers (Ice, tomes) telling you where to go.

Active was when Seal Rock first came out and there was an actual community in it with people whom you recognized by name.

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Seal Rock is the worst mode S/E ever created.
No tactic, no teamwork, and no strategy, and just pure RNG.
The only reason people saying it is better than Shattered is because they want the commander set.
Shattered is always more popular than Seal Rock.
Even secure pop more than Seal Rock ever did

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Seal Rock is the worst mode S/E ever created.
No tactic, no teamwork, and no strategy, and just pure RNG.
The only reason people saying it is better than Shattered is because they want the commander set.Shattered is always more popular than Seal Rock.
Even secure pop more than Seal Rock ever did

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The only RNG is your team.

Bad node spawns? Attack the team thats ahead to farm highs and get ready for the next engagement, or spawn camp to farm their highs and let the other team catch up. Next set of nodes are now easier to get because you used tactics (farm high to prepare for next engagement) instead of running across the field into a 3 team skirmish where your trek back is twice as long as anyone else so now you're feeding.

The fact that it isn't at obvious to most people is what's wrong. Shatter is liked more because it has more PvE in it than PvP. Ice spawns, go kill it. People feel useful when they hit the little ice even if its the wrong call because they're behind. They also feel great when they see how much contribution was made by mindlessly attacking ice...but nvm that the enemy has a fever running around destroying your team.

I'm guessing you weren't around when Seal Rock was new? It was the busiest most liveliest I saw Frontline, with familiar faces taken the lead and amazing close matches. Why? Because people listened to the tactics, which required team work, which is the bigger issue at hand. How do you get people to work as a TEAM when they're used to PvE where you can YOLO all the way to end game and still get rewarded

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Originally Posted by Kisama

You must be one of those people that sit at the tomelith for the whole match.

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lol, well, you are from Aether, so I wouldn't be surprised with this statement.
No, I am very active in Tomelith stealing/mug as a Ninja from opposite team in 3.0.
This mode becomes very unbearable for me after 4.0.
No more tomelith stealing, in which means no team need to leave any defenders and can just zerg around to kill.
Not to mention about that lolrng tomelith spawn that usually pre-determine the course of the game.

After 4.0, there is no more strategy required.
All I was doing is just going around killing other players and it is very boring.
The worst part of this mode is there is no any meaningful countermeasures for a PuG aginst a premade group.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

lol, well, you are from Aether, so I wouldn't be surprised with this statement.
No, I am very active in Tomelith stealing/mug as a Ninja from opposite team in 3.0.
This mode becomes very unbearable for me after 4.0.
No more tomelith stealing, in which means no team need to leave any defenders and can just zerg around to kill.
Not to mention about that lolrng tomelith spawn that usually pre-determine the course of the game.

After 4.0, there is no more strategy required.
All I was doing is just going around killing other players and it is very boring.
The worst part of this mode is there is no any meaningful countermeasures for a PuG aginst a premade group.

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What does being from Aether have to do with anything? Other than the fact that a lot of people came over from Primal for more competitive feast experience.

Anyway, did you read what I wrote? None of what I said is different from 3.x and 4.x.

I'll be honest, I'm HAPPY NIN lost their invis. So many times I'd see them randomly go off to "steal" a tome just to leave us down a few members and get nothing in return but lost points and fevers/highs to enemies.

I look at it much like that lone tank staying back to "guard" our home base in shatter. Stick with the team, it's your better option most of the time. The few times where NIN sneaking off to steal a tome were few and required tactical thinking. Also not having half the alliance following you.