HP Scaling, Please Remove It

[Olor]

Some folks don't mind getting help getting geared up though, why should that option be removed just because you don't think it's the way to do things? And let's be honest, people still do leech people up to current basic standards - just only very close friends and the like. And if we're able to get 119 gear from a goblin lottery each day then I don't see why it's fundamentally awful to make it so groups are not punished or completely unable to complete content if they bring more people. At any rate, let's not pretend we haven't all been powerleveling people and such since this game began - no need to let your gear ethics remove an option other people might like to make use of.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that without the HP penalty a lot more folks might actually *be able to* clear the content (especially if time limits were removed from older events) as participatory members as 8 melee whiffing 70 per cent of the time are going to do more damage than 4 melee whiffing 70 per cent of the time - you're also ignoring the issue that a lot of jobs are behind right now and the HP penalty just means zero incentive to bring folks, even folks that can hit the mob, if they are not on a great job. It also does nothing for the health of linkshells to have to basically exclude people all the time.

I might be more sympathetic to your argument Omnys if the game wasn't so out of whack right now. I mean, I have a full set of 119 gear for blu and I spent a lot of gil trying to augment it and I still don't have enough accuracy and DT, and I have zero way of getting into content that would get me that last 100 ACC I need to not whiff all the time. Anyway I wouldn't even have that if I had not happened to be around when bard was still half wanted for stuff.

And I am willing to play bard but no one wants it... really I don't think telling every player in the game they must level GEO if they want to progress even a bit is a solution.

And really, how does it hurt you if other people are able to help their friends? I don't understand it. Why be against it?

[OmnysValefor]

Some folks don't mind getting help getting geared up though, why should that option be removed just because you don't think it's the way to do things? And let's be honest, people still do leech people up to current basic standards - just only very close friends and the like. And if we're able to get 119 gear from a goblin lottery each day then I don't see why it's fundamentally awful to make it so groups are not punished or completely unable to complete content if they bring more people. At any rate, let's not pretend we haven't all been powerleveling people and such since this game began - no need to let your gear ethics remove an option other people might like to make use of.

If you balance around 6 appropriately geared people, it's not even a challenge when you bring 10+.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that without the HP penalty a lot more folks might actually *be able to* clear the content (especially if time limits were removed from older events) as participatory members as 8 melee whiffing 70 per cent of the time are going to do more damage than 4 melee whiffing 70 per cent of the time - you're also ignoring the issue that a lot of jobs are behind right now and the HP penalty just means zero incentive to bring folks, even folks that can hit the mob, if they are not on a great job. It also does nothing for the health of linkshells to have to basically exclude people all the time.

No, I'm not. If a challenge has X difficulty and you're allowed to throw more bodies at it without the difficulty increasing, it becomes easier. That's obvious.

I might be more sympathetic to your argument Omnys if the game wasn't so out of whack right now. I mean, I have a full set of 119 gear for blu and I spent a lot of gil trying to augment it and I still don't have enough accuracy and DT, and I have zero way of getting into content that would get me that last 100 ACC I need to not whiff all the time. Anyway I wouldn't even have that if I had not happened to be around when bard was still half wanted for stuff.

And this is one of the confusing points of ilvl for a lot of people. Tojil's weapons are 119, so are drops from Reisenjima. The difference between the two is staggering. They shouldn't both be called 119.

And I am willing to play bard but no one wants it... really I don't think telling every player in the game they must level GEO if they want to progress even a bit is a solution.

It's not, play whm, play blm, play geo, play corsair, play sch. Just do it to the best of your ability rather than, as some people insist on, fulltiming one gearset and not understanding why they aren't winning. Putting together a solid whm is very easy these days, something a sparks geared DD can make great headway into. You need a healing potency set, cursna gear, refresh set to idle in, -DT gear, (Earth Staff is still a decent start for this actually, when you're not controlling trusts), whm empy pants (reforged to 109).

And really, how does it hurt you if other people are able to help their friends? I don't understand it. Why be against it?[/QUOTE]

Because you can't simply say "You can bring 3x or 6x the players and the fight won't be any harder" without major ramifications.

Right now the content is designed that, whatever the size of your group (3 or more), you can go and kill it if the combined skill is enough.

A lot of this is people just wanting to leapfrog content.

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I am truly sorry if I come off as mean or anything like it. I help people, and I do carry people. I've helped probably a dozen different people get Rawhide armor or various UNMs. I play PLD and GEO because I like to bridge the gap but just because I'm helping people through entry level content doesn't mean I'd want them at Hidhaegg (ilvl Nidhogg) or Sovereign Behemoth.

Take those two for example, they will wipe out an undergeared group, hp-scaling or not. And they should, that's how MMOs work. You don't ding cap and then go kill some of the hardest bosses.

[detlef]

No, I'm not. If a challenge has X difficulty and you're allowed to throw more bodies at it without the difficulty increasing, it becomes easier. That's obvious.

I actually don't think it's obvious. If it's a solo fight but you bring 2 people, yeah, it becomes a lot easier. But due to various mechanics including TP-feed, skillchains, and cumulative magic resists, you reach a point where each additional person is bringing less and less to the table. At some point, bringing more people doesn't help you anymore. And at some point, bringing more people hurts you. Especially if you consider that the people being added last are often the worst geared/skilled.

The point where you consider leaving people out is often dangerously close to a 6-man PT which means you're completely hosed if you have a larger group. Splitting up is an option but it's unrealistic to expect a group to be able to divide itself down the middle to make 2 winning groups.

[OmnysValefor]

I actually don't think it's obvious. If it's a solo fight but you bring 2 people, yeah, it becomes a lot easier. But due to various mechanics including TP-feed, skillchains, and cumulative magic resists, you reach a point where each additional person is bringing less and less to the table.

Fair point, but I was replying to the idea that a group of people missing 70% of the time might just win if they just throw more bodies at it. It's not the case, people missing that much will miss a lot of Weaponskills, feed a lot of TP, cause curagas to cause a lot of hate. Over a longer duration, the WHM will run out of MP or enmity cap, or both. Hate cap still does exist after all.

You and I both know, of course, that if you have say two DD with 70% hit rate (hit capping isn't always easy or feasible)--or two SCH, but that's besides the point--then there's little reason to bring a third. The two will TP fast enough that the third has almost no opportunity to WS and is only feeding the monster more TP. If the the two are BLU, SAM, or DNC, they can use excess TP to make their own solo skillchains. In the event that one dies, there's always the tank to skillchain with. Further, if the two are BLU or DNC, they can provide utility as well (Tenebral Crush, Useful steps, Attack Speed, Emergency healing, Stuns)

Or, just bring two scholars and your SC people probably never die.

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One of the points posted earlier in this thread is that it's a sad state when a person relies on a trust more than a player but let's be honest, some of the trusts are better than players for specific purposes. Zeid will stun if it can be stunned. He doesn't have the recast that even a blm or stun-geared DRK does, but if stun is up, and he can, he will.

Selh'teus ("Seth" as I call him) is overpowered for small groups. He's the reason my paladin can grab a melee and a mage and go kill things, because he'll feed us TP/MP/Free HP. He screws up some skillchains, but only if you don't know how to work with him.

I went to a Delores once that you would have laughed so hard you cried if you saw it. Grabbed a whm, and he said his girlfriend was the better healer so we grabbed her and he switched to RDM/WHM. I explained the fight, the things to watch for, where to stand (near the boss, not behind the tank, etc). I got breathed and everything got para'd. I spammed remedies, wouldn't go off. Begging in party chat for para, just para, I'll med the rest. Nothing. BLMs got meleed to death and they're begging in party chat too. Since then, I prefer Apururu over some random whm. She might not para me first, but she'll get to me.

The point where you consider leaving people out is often dangerously close to a 6-man PT which means you're completely hosed if you have a larger group. Splitting up is an option but it's unrealistic to expect a group to be able to divide itself down the middle to make 2 winning groups.

Yep, this is definitely true, often times a few people have to be a member of both groups. LS's are lucky to have one good whm that loves the job, let alone two. A good GEO, especially an Idris. A tank that really dedicates themselves.

[Olor]

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I am truly sorry if I come off as mean or anything like it. I help people, and I do carry people. I've helped probably a dozen different people get Rawhide armor or various UNMs. I play PLD and GEO because I like to bridge the gap but just because I'm helping people through entry level content doesn't mean I'd want them at Hidhaegg (ilvl Nidhogg) or Sovereign Behemoth.

Take those two for example, they will wipe out an undergeared group, hp-scaling or not. And they should, that's how MMOs work. You don't ding cap and then go kill some of the hardest bosses.

For the record, I don't think you're mean, you're very respectful and thoughtful and I enjoy your contribution to the conversation.

I just think there are different views at play here - my view is the game is too old to exclude too many people - and right now too many people are too far behind to catch up - and the game does nothing to help people forward... even reading wikis etc doesn't always give enough info... Ambuscade is a good start right now but I worry even that will be ruined by punishing folks for soloing - we will see.

[OmnysValefor]

my view is the game is too old to exclude too many people - and right now too many people are too far behind to catch up - and the game does nothing to help people forward... even reading wikis etc doesn't always give enough info... Ambuscade is a good start right now but I worry even that will be ruined by punishing folks for soloing - we will see.

While you do need to do your missions, which SE has made much easier, catching up isn't so terribly hard.

* You can farm something for gil and buy ancient beastcoins to get your Loquacious and Brutal Earrings, so you don't even need to bother with Limbus. And honestly, you could probably get by without either of those and noone would notice.
* Related to the first point, many of the best accessories in the game are from previous expansions/add ons.
* Sparks/119 gear pretty much put you on part with a well atma'd 99, so farming needed things out of Abyssea, even if you can't get help, isn't that terrible.
* The JSE weapon augments very generous.
* There are entry-friendly jobs, like GEO but not just GEO.
* Wanted Dial / Abjuration dial is random but offers some benefit.
* Ambuscade. The armor from this looks really promising. I have a friend who just came back and because of Ambuscade, his PLD is able to -DT cap in relevant gear (meaning he has good amounts of defense, magic evasion, and base stats. His other job, DRK, is also loving the Ambuscade gear. Sulevia's is not tanking gear, but it's much better than trying to tank in abyssea area stuff. Anybody can do Ambuscade Dragon, even if they need to stick to E or VE at first.

SE has done quite a bit to make catching up easier. They could gone the alternate route and made this upgraded Salvage armor require doing Salvage. In a different era of the game, they probably would have.