[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

That's irrelevant to my point.

If you want to kick people out of the group because they aren't following your directions or you have a better replacement then that's your prerogative. But you can't claim you are kicking my paladin out of your group because he isn't contributing enough to win when he is.

Again, that's the difference.

They're quite the same in this case though, cuz I did asked the PLD to change weapon.

I didn't say the PLD isn't contributing enough to win(now it's you that are playing the word game), I said the PLD isn't contributing enough because I can replace the PLD with a SAM, the term contributing enough is a comparison between a shield PLD and a SAM. That has different meaning.

[Dale]

They're quite the same in this case though, cuz I did asked the PLD to change weapon.

I didn't say the PLD isn't contributing enough to win(now it's you're playing the word game), I said the PLD isn't contributing enough compare to a SAM. That has different meaning.

No they aren't the same case.

There is a difference in kicking a paladin out of your group because he isn't contributing enough damage to win and then kicking him out because he didn't want to obey you and use a weapon he rather not use so you can better compare him to a samurai or w/e.

And I'm not playing any word games. I am pointing out differences.

[Seillan]

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.

Again, if you don't want expectations, go play with friends or offline game. If you work with strangers, it's normal to have expectations.

I also don't undersatnd why it's such a big deal that other groups exclude a sword and shield DD in their group. Is it really that much to ask to unequip a shield? I give instructions a lot more than "don't equip a shield" all the time, if you refuse to follow this simple direction, how'd you follow other directions?

I guess what I can't personally understand is how you can take a video game so effing seriously. You liken it to working a job or "providing good service to a client," but... it's a video game. It's made to be used as a form of entertainment, a way to relax after work, an escape from reality -- not a place to re-live all the RL bullsh*t and pressures many of us are trying try escape. Honestly, and don't take this personally, but the mindset that you seem to be advocating here and explaining as the "facts of FFXI" just make me want to give up on the game. There are so many cool things about the FFXI universe, and I'd like to experience everything, but the more I read about how seemingly terrible things get in end-game and how strict and uptight people seem to get about doing everything in just a few cookie-cutter ways (going by your testimony here) the less I'm inclined to continue logging in. I'd have to agree with Dale that that kind of attitude is likely a big part of the reason that these "job adjustment" arguments are even raised to begin with, seeing as how the min/max players you refer to in your posts have such a narrow-minded view of how the game should be played, which jobs are considered "worthless," which play-styles are "effective, etc. You say these are just facts on how the game works, but if it's actually possible to complete the same content with varying "worthless" jobs and different play-styles (as Dale has attested), then how is it a "fact?" Is it slower to progress that way? No doubt. But ultimately, in the end, what does it really matter? I'd much rather have something take an extra 20 minutes and be fun, rather than having it go quicker with a class/job that I hate. I would think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I'm not saying you're wrong here -- as I'm sure you wouldn't be making these arguments if they weren't your actual experiences in-game with PUGs and such -- but I will say that it's a depressing thing to read. I just wish these games were about fun again and not about being some pseudo-second job, with spreadsheets, and maximizing numbers, and status reports, and meters to make sure that the peons are all running optimally in their hamster wheels at all times, etc. Ugh. I just want to relax, play, and have fun on a class/job I enjoy but it seems that's practically viewed as a crime these days depending on the job, or consequently, the way that job is played. I feel that the importance some people put on efficiency is honestly to a fault. I mean, when you're lying on your death bed in the twilight years of your life, who's going to care how many extra incremental dps points your managed to squeeze out of a random rotation during a run in a game? It's just sweating the small stuff, in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't want to spur on another argument, so I'll let this be my last post on the subject. It all comes down to what people consider to be fun, and we all have our own definitions and opinions of it. I just wanted to share mine.

[detlef]

All I can tell you is if you find my posts irritating put me on ignore. I won't hold it against you (and if that sounds arrogant it wasn't meant to be).

That's not fair. Only some of your posts are idiotic, not all of them. I'm pretty sure I've agreed completely with some of our other posts in other threads.

[Malithar]

And I don't know these others you are talking about and they aren't here to defend themselves. So it's impossible for me to direct my argument at them

They graciously bowed out in favor of letting your ignorance/arrogance speak for them. I see that "getting the last word in" is coming along quite nicely. Expecting 30 pages by tomorrow. -.-

[mattkoko]

I don't really want to get in the middle of this and I will refrain from agreeing or disagreeing with Dale an Afiana. However, I must say I can see the relationship between endgame as a sort of a job and meeting certain requirements and standards like a rl job. And this is not just ffxi. It is with any MMO that have endgame content. I mean look at the past of ffxi alone. We used to have dynamis shells salvage shells, sky and limbus shells and the list goes on. We even have endgame linkshells around now. I can't really comment on the endgame shells now because I cannot keep up with them, however I was in a few back in the day. And one of the things I hated most about them is because it was like having a job. Be there at a certain time for a certain amount of hours. Be there a certain number of times to be able to even lot on an armor piece. And if you miss a few events, YOUR FIRED! or in this case you are kicked. Now I only tried endgame a few times in those days, and the reason why is because, I already had 2 jobs and 2 bosses. I didn't need an in game job with a 3rd boss. or 4 or 5 depending on how many endgame LSes I chose to be in. Like I said, this is not just ffxi. I know my brother used to play WoW and he had to be on the computer to prepare for an event at certain times for his Guild.

Again, not taking sides. You can think of me as the judge by saying, "I allow this to be used as evidence" lol

And the reason I am refusing to takes sides is because I guess I kind of see both of Dale's and Afania's points and I agree and disagree to some extent on both. You can call me a coward but I just don't feel like being sucked into a 10 pages discussion talking in circles. I was already in a few debates with Dale in other threads and I bailed out 3 posts in, mainly because we both stated our opinions and we both didn't see eye to eye on them. I viewed it as a waste of time to express our opinions in a million different ways, just to come back to the same result. And I am completely okay with not getting the last word in.

By the way, I am not saying the need to get the last word in is a bad thing. Everyone has their own personality styles. I can tell that you 2 have a couple of the Expressor personality traits. Strong communicators, highly motivational and persuasive. There maybe even a bit of the Director personality traits in there. Taking charge, delegating to others to achieve results, unafraid to voice opinions. By the way, I am now using you 2 as a studying tool for My personal training test, as I need to be able to identify with multiple personality. It helps me figure out what appropriate actions to take with each client depending on their personality. See look at that shit. I can post in FFXI forum and study at the same time. Thank you for that .

Well, I know this entire post was pretty much off topic, but really, who is keeping track anymore? In reality I am really just trying to lighten the mood a little.

[Byrth]

No the system doesn't. At least not in regards to what I am referring to. Individual players do.

Let me give you an example:
1) Players do current battlefields to improve their character by obtaining drops.
2) Higher tier battlefields give more drops.
3) We're all mortal, so time is scarce.
1+3 = 4) It makes sense to optimize the number of drops/player.
5) Some setups are more efficient than others, allowing you to defeat higher tier battlefields or successfully lowman lower tier battlefields.

The system (#2, #5) is combined with relatively constant factors (#1, #3) and determines which setups and players are valued. It creates feelings like, "This dumbshit PLD is wasting our time (#3) and sucks as a DD and as a tank (#5)."


Now, I'm not saying that some people don't play the game to RP while being all buddy buddy with strangers in a monthly subscription internet chat room, but #1 seems pretty logical to me. Heck, at least one player leveled to 75 solo and without a subjob. People are strange. If I'm going to play a game, I'm going to play to win and I don't think that's some deviant attitude that needs to be eradicated.




As for the other shit, I'm only reading the rest of this post. Learn to be concise. Anyway:

Enmity - Enmity is broken at the moment. There are 2-3 DDs in the game capable of killing a iLevel 119 NM in a group without capping hate and having to serve as a tank. If it was fixed, jobs like RUN would have a much larger niche to fill. I'm an Aegis/Burtgang/Ochain PLD with full 119 AF/AF2 and I approve of this message.

Forced Delay - When you use a JA, WS, or Magic, you incur a mandatory 1~3 second delay. When you have capped Haste and all the STP that SE has thrown at us, this 2 second delay for WSs is something like 40% of your TP time. Activating a JA had better be worth 20% of a WS, or it's not worth using. This needs to be reduced. Jobs like DNC, PUP, RUN, etc. rely heavily on JA spamming. All magic DDs rely on magic spamming, etc.

Accuracy / Magic Accuracy - These are the only stats that SE can use in their current system to gear/buffcheck people... or, as happens currently, gear/buffcheck pets (who can't get buffs). Downside obviously being that pets can't receive real buffs at the moment. It would probably be a more manageable system if Acc/MAcc decreased slower after hitting a threshold Hit rate (like 75% or something). It's also a huge pain in the ass to have to bring along four jobs basically just for Acc buffs/Evasion debuffs, or to start a fight that you aren't fully prepared for and end up with a 20% hit rate that you don't have the jobs to combat at the moment. Without this issue, there would have been no real need to put 242 skill on iLevel 119 weapons.

Pet mechanics - Pets cannot receive buffs like party members, which renders pet jobs useless in higher tier fights where buffs are mandatory (specifically Haste buffs). Pets should be treated as party members.

The problem is that fixing these issues could have huge reverberations throughout the game. There are other changes that could be made to address these issues, but they are equally devastating (changing Haste from Delay*[1-Haste%] to Delay/[1+Haste%])

Overall, something should have been done about these issues before the cap was even raised from 75. Enmity should have been fixed before the cap was raised from 50.

[Afania]

They graciously bowed out in favor of letting your ignorance/arrogance speak for them. I see that "getting the last word in" is coming along quite nicely. Expecting 30 pages by tomorrow. -.-

Malithar just opened a can of worms! I want to reply to Dale's last post, but if I do it'd start another 100 pages of debate >.>

By the way, I am not saying the need to get the last word in is a bad thing. Everyone has their own personality styles. I can tell that you 2 have a couple of the Expressor personality traits. Strong communicators, highly motivational and persuasive. There maybe even a bit of the Director personality traits in there. Taking charge, delegating to others to achieve results, unafraid to voice opinions.

Huh, irl I'm exactly the opposite lol, I'm always the listener/follower. So your observation isn't exactly accurate!

[Afania]

I guess what I can't personally understand is how you can take a video game so effing seriously. You liken it to working a job or "providing good service to a client," but... it's a video game. It's made to be used as a form of entertainment, a way to relax after work, an escape from reality -- not a place to re-live all the RL bullsh*t and pressures many of us are trying try escape. Honestly, and don't take this personally, but the mindset that you seem to be advocating here and explaining as the "facts of FFXI" just make me want to give up on the game. There are so many cool things about the FFXI universe, and I'd like to experience everything, but the more I read about how seemingly terrible things get in end-game and how strict and uptight people seem to get about doing everything in just a few cookie-cutter ways (going by your testimony here) the less I'm inclined to continue logging in. I'd have to agree with Dale that that kind of attitude is likely a big part of the reason that these "job adjustment" arguments are even raised to begin with, seeing as how the min/max players you refer to in your posts have such a narrow-minded view of how the game should be played, which jobs are considered "worthless," which play-styles are "effective, etc. You say these are just facts on how the game works, but if it's actually possible to complete the same content with varying "worthless" jobs and different play-styles (as Dale has attested), then how is it a "fact?" Is it slower to progress that way? No doubt. But ultimately, in the end, what does it really matter? I'd much rather have something take an extra 20 minutes and be fun, rather than having it go quicker with a class/job that I hate. I would think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I'm not saying you're wrong here -- as I'm sure you wouldn't be making these arguments if they weren't your actual experiences in-game with PUGs and such -- but I will say that it's a depressing thing to read. I just wish these games were about fun again and not about being some pseudo-second job, with spreadsheets, and maximizing numbers, and status reports, and meters to make sure that the peons are all running optimally in their hamster wheels at all times, etc. Ugh. I just want to relax, play, and have fun on a class/job I enjoy but it seems that's practically viewed as a crime these days depending on the job, or consequently, the way that job is played. I feel that the importance some people put on efficiency is honestly to a fault. I mean, when you're lying on your death bed in the twilight years of your life, who's going to care how many extra incremental dps points your managed to squeeze out of a random rotation during a run in a game? It's just sweating the small stuff, in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't want to spur on another argument, so I'll let this be my last post on the subject. It all comes down to what people consider to be fun, and we all have our own definitions and opinions of it. I just wanted to share mine.

Although you said it's your last post, I'm still kinda curious....

Most of the ppl I've met in FFXI doesn't view playing optimal playstyle this negatively, they just do it cuz it helps their friends/ls to get things done and that makes them happy. If everyone is happy, they're happy as well.

Some ppl do hate playing mage jobs, which is fact. But when it comes to playstyle, almost everyone I've ever pt with picked the same playstyle as what community thought to be the best, and all the players I've ever pt with are happy to do so....I've seen a WAR complained for being asked to play WHM, but I've never seen a WAR complaining about not be able to use a shield in an event in my life, ever. Most of the players are actually grateful to hear suggestions and opinion to play better so they can be more helpful to the team.

So yeah, I really don't understand what's reason to view different playstyle THIS negatively. I can understand the frustration if you can't play the job you want, but when it comes to playstyle, it's really hard to understand......when you help your team grind more stuff per hour and make everyone happy, don't you feel satisfied with them?

FYI, when I just started playing FFXI, my goal was to be a melee RDM and I did the same thing....I questioned the community "Why can't I play a playstyle I enjoy?" since I also enjoyed role playing. And that started 10 pages of debate toward playstyle in FFXI.

Now that I've done enough endgame, I have a drastically different POV regarding this matter. It's nowhere as negative as how you describe, and I still look for opportunity to play different playstyle and have fun all the time.FFXI certainly has grey area and room for different playstyle, you just have to find them and create opportunity to use them, instead of forcing everyone else to accommodate one individual's playstyle.

[mattkoko]

Huh, irl I'm exactly the opposite lol, I'm always the listener/follower. So your observation isn't exactly accurate!

Meh, that was more for a laugh then anything else. Like I said, just trying to lighten the mood. It is nearly impossible to make an accurate guess of someones personality over the internet just judging by forum posts. I was just having fun really at other peoples expense lol.