[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

No it's not too bad for me at all. Because I often play as a damage dealer with my Paladin using a sword and shield when I group. I don't always tank. And we do just fine and have a lot of fun while doing it. We also win and get nice stuff I can use to upgrade my character. So I really don't see what there is for me to feel bad about. Hell, I even DD on my Red Mage too often enough.

You see not everyone on this game thinks like you do. You might consider that your opinion represents the so-called community but it really doesn't and is no more important than my own opinion. And I would be more than happy to play with a shield DD anytime.

Sure, they may not do as much damage as a samurai or some other two-hander job. But if they are well-played with good gear they can contribute just fine and certainly don't punish my group.

Also: you are once again exaggerating. There is a huge difference in having extremely high expectations that everyone play their job as you think they should else you won't party with them and then having zero expectations.

When I said "too bad for you" it's not about how you want to play PLD, but the fact that you have problem with others having an expectation toward team member in a team. I'm not asking you to feel bad or anything.

I'm completely fine with you only play with friends, I only point out the consequence of your choice: You can only play with friends.

In my case I play with PUG a lot, and I also start lead ls or shout pt a lot. It's not possible to have zero expectation toward pt member and keep things going....I have expectations on pt member just like my pt member has expectation on me as a leader. I can invite a shield DD, but they'd start drama or be unhappy, so I have to have expectations...all the pt member has expectations toward the entire team as well.

If I only want to play the way I want or have no expectations toward pt member, I won't be able to PUG properly, this is how this world works.

Also expecting a DD don't use a shield when they DD is hardly an extremely high expectation....do you even know what extremely high means?

If I have extremely high expectation toward the pt member, I'd only ever invite a Koga SAM that can solo DD yorcia in less than 25 min. Expecting a PLD not using a shield when DDing is a below avg expectation - -. I mean, is it really THAT hard to remove the shield in offhand slot and equip another sword instead?

If anything you're the one that has no grey area.

[Dale]

When I said "too bad for you" it's not about how you want to play PLD, but the fact that you have problem with others having an expectation toward team member in a team. I'm not asking you to feel bad or anything.


Also expecting a DD don't use a shield when they DD is hardly extremely high expectation....do you even know what extremely high means?

If I have extremely high expectation toward the pt member, I'd only ever a Koga SAM that can solo DD yorcia in less than 25 min. Expecting a PLD not using a shield when DDing is a below avg expectation - -.

If anything you're the one that has no grey area.

No I have a problem with your expectations toward the team. And I've already explained why so there is no need for me to repeat it.

I know you want to lure me into another semantic debate about what the word extremely means but I rather not. Use the word high expectations if you want. Or below normal. Or what ever word suits your fancy.

[Afania]

No I have a problem with your expectations toward the team. And I've already explained why so there is no need for me to repeat it.

I know you want to lure me into another semantic debate about what the word extremely means but I rather not. Use the word high expectations if you want. Or below normal. Or what ever word suits your fancy.

I have expectations toward the team because other team members has equal or more expectation toward the team and the lead. I'm not sure why you continue to direct this "problem" toward my behavior.

Try to PUG yorcia run and invite a shield PLD, see what kind of reply you'd get, then you'd understand why. Ppl simply have expectations in life. For gods sake every delve PUG I made I receive at least 5 hate tell toward other pt member's performance every run.

[Dale]

I have expectations toward the team because other team members has equal or more expectation toward the team and the lead. I'm not sure why you continue to direct this "problem" toward my behavior.

Because it is your behavior I am talking about. Excluding me from your group because I wanted to use my sword and shield instead of a great sword is what you said you would do.

And I don't know these others you are talking about and they aren't here to defend themselves. So it's impossible for me to direct my argument at them. All I can say to you is you shouldn't let others people dictate how you treat people. You should treat them as you feel you should. Because peer pressure can have nasty consequences and people should rise above it.

[Kensagaku]

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

[Dale]

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

Look, threads often veer into multiple topics. That should be expected. Though I feel our debate has important links to the spirit of this topic because many of the job adjustments being asked for are designed to combat the issue me and her are debating.

All I can tell you is if you find my posts irritating put me on ignore. I won't hold it against you (and if that sounds arrogant it wasn't meant to be).

[Afania]

Because it is your behavior I am talking about. Excluding me from your group because I wanted to use my sword and shield instead of a great sword is what you said you would do.

And I don't know these others you are talking about and they aren't here to defend themselves. So it's impossible for me to direct my argument at them. All I can say to you is you shouldn't let others people dictate how you treat people. You should treat them as you feel you should. Because peer pressure can have nasty consequences and people should rise above it.

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.

Again, if you don't want expectations, go play with friends or offline game. If you work with strangers, it's normal to have expectations.

I also don't undersatnd why it's such a big deal that other groups exclude a sword and shield DD in their group. Is it really that much to ask to unequip a shield? I give instructions a lot more than "don't equip a shield" all the time, if you refuse to follow this simple direction, how'd you follow other directions?

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

This forum has no PM function though.......Although Dale is welcomed to PM my FFXIAH account if he wants to continue.

[Dale]

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.
.

The problem with your analogy is that they are contributing enough.

I can contribute enough damage with my Paladin while using a sword and shield that the run will still be a success. So you want to fire me not because I am stopping the company from being successful - but because I am not living up to your own personal expectations that I should be using a Great Sword instead.

That's the difference.

[Afania]

The problem with your analogy is that they are contributing enough.

I can contribute enough damage with my Paladin while using a sword and shield that the run will still be a success. So you want to fire me not because I am stopping the company from being successful - but because I am not living up to your own personal expectations that I should be using a Great Sword instead.

That's the difference.

A company would fire ppl for more than 1 reason, even if they're making money.

For example, they'd fire ppl if that person doesn't follow direction, or when they have a better replacement. In this case, I can always go on and proceed to invite another DD that actually follows leader's direction. It doesn't matter if I can win with a shield PLD or not....I can still choose to invite someone else for a better result.

Again, this is barely a zomg terrible negative behavior, many ppl do it irl and in game all the time.

[Dale]

A company would fire ppl for more than 1 reason, even if they're making money.

For example, they'd fire ppl if that person doesn't follow direction, or when they have a better replacement. In this case, I can always go on and proceed to invite another DD that actually follow leader's direction.

That's irrelevant to my point.

If you want to kick people out of the group because they aren't following your directions or you have a better replacement then that's your prerogative. But you can't claim you are kicking my paladin out of your group because he isn't contributing enough damage to win when he is.

Again, that's the difference.