[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

SE didn't disagree with me, lol. Cuz if they did, they'd do so with game design, by making a shield WAR more effective. (snip)

It seems that you still insist that WAR should use a shield because the text said so, instead of actually telling me why a WAR should.

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

[Afania]

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

SE gave my BLU GK access via ark tachi as well, I suppose that means SE wants BLU to use a GK?

If SE really want WAR to use a shield, they'd do more than letting them to wear a shield. They'd make a shield WAR a lot more effective as a tank.

I don't tell others how they should play, I only point out mathematically effective way to play certain jobs. Ultimately, it's other ppl's freedom to choose a less effective way.

However, I can't do anything to change certain playstyle from ineffective to effective. Only SE can do that.

[Dale]

SE gave my BLU GK access via ark tachi as well, I suppose that means SE wants BLU to use a GK?

If SE really want WAR to use a shield, they'd do more than letting them to wear a shield. They'd make a shield WAR a lot more effective as a tank.

I don't tell others how they should play, I only point out mathematically effective way to play certain jobs. Ultimately, it's other ppl's freedom to choose a less effective way.

However, I can't do anything to change certain playstyle from ineffective to effective. Only SE can do that.

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

And if you want to use a great katana on your BLU go for it. I won't hold it against you.

[Afania]

Again: if SE never intended for Warrior to use a sword and shield they would have never given them sword and shield combat skills and Swords and Shields they can use.

Can you answer my last question first? Lol. SE also gave my BLU Ark Tachi access, does that means SE want BLU to use a GK?

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

I've played with MNK tank, BLU tank, NIN tank, SAM tank, and pretty much every DD job tanking stuff without a shield, so?

Of course WAR can tank, but WAR tanking without a shield can probably produce similar or better end result as not using a shield, that's my point.

Yes I've play with WAR tank, without a shield as well. Anything a WAR can tank with a shield, they can probably tank better without it. Tanking is more than just turtle.

I also don't understand why you insist that I'm the one telling how others to play the job. I don't work for SE. If I work for SE, I'd actually want to make shield WAR more effective.

Again, if you insist that shield war is a valid play style, perhaps you should ask your friend to reply here and explain why, cuz atm I feel this discussion isn't going anywhere.

[Dale]

Can you answer my last question first? Lol. SE also gave my BLU Ark Tachi access, does that means SE want BLU to use a GK?



I've played with MNK tank, BLU tank, NIN tank, SAM tank, and pretty much every DD job tanking stuff without a shield, so?

Of course WAR can tank, but WAR tanking without a shield can probably produce similar or better end result as not using a shield, that's my point.

Yes I've play with WAR tank, without a shield as well. Anything a WAR can tank with a shield, they can probably tank better without it.

I also don't understand why you insist that I'm the one telling how others to play the job. I don't work for SE. If I work for SE, I'd actually want to make shield WAR more effective.

I insist you are doing that because you said warriors who use a shield should not join any groups or do any content outside of role playing. And if that isn't telling other people how they should play their job then I don't know what would be.

I'm not going to answer your questions about Blue Mage because I don't play Blue mage and don't even know what Ark Tachi is. I already said if you wanted to try out Great Katana be my guest. I won't hold it against you. So I don't know what more you want from me about this Great Katana business.

[Afania]

I insist you are doing that because you said warriors who use a shield should not join any groups or do any content outside of role playing. And if that isn't telling other people how they should play their job then I don't know what would be.

I'm not going to answer your questions about Blue Mage because I don't play Blue mage and don't even know what Ark Tachi is. I already said if you wanted to try out Great Katana be my guest. I won't hold it against you. So I don't know what more you want from me about this Great Katana business.

What's wrong with saying a setup for role playing shouldn't join a content that's obviously designed for none role players? Of course if your friends can accept a role player, sure they can join them.

But if ppl don't want to raid with a role player, then it's perfectly logical. Role playing by nature, is very different from raid. Raid is about beating stuff and over coming challenge, role playing is about playing as a character you want to be.

They're just....different. If the game content is designed for ppl to beat and overcome challenge, then you can't expect everyone be a character they want to be. If the community try to overcome challenge because the content was designed that way, it's not their fault for not allowing others to be a character they want to be.

Ark tachi is a GK equip-able by all jobs. There are a lot of weapons that can be equipped by certain job, that doesn't mean it's effective.

[Dale]

What's wrong with saying a setup for role playing shouldn't join a content that's obviously designed for none role players? Of course if your friends can accept a role player, sure they can join them.

But if ppl don't want to raid with a role player, then it's perfectly logical. Role playing by nature, is very different from raid. Raid is about beating stuff and over coming challenge, role playing is about playing as a character you want to be.

They're just....different. If the game content is designed for ppl to beat and overcome challenge, then you can't expect everyone be a character they want to be. If the community try to overcome challenge because the content was designed that way, it's not their fault for not allowing others to be a character they want to be.

Ark tachi is a GK equip-able by all jobs. There are a lot of weapons that can be equipped by certain job, that doesn't mean it's effective.

Yes, and warriors who use shields are capable of overcoming and beating content on this game. So I fail to understand your point.

[Afania]

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

And if you want to use a great katana on your BLU go for it. I won't hold it against you.

Oh and btw, idk exactly what's your opinion about shield WAR anymore.

Are you trying to argue that shield WAR is viable because of role playing reason? If yes then we have nothing to argue here, we both agree that role playing is a valid reason to use a shield WAR, and we both agree that role playing shouldn't be about math and what's better.

But they you said "I've seen good WAR tanks"(probably with a shield). So it's back to "what's better" argument again. Can you filter out the goal of your argument first?

If you want to argue "what setup is better for WAR tank", explain how shield WAR is a better tank than using other weapons.

If you don't want to argue about what's better due to role playing reason, then no point to continue.

[Dale]

Oh and btw, idk exactly what's your opinion about shield WAR anymore.

Are you trying to argue that shield WAR is viable because of role playing reason? If yes then we have nothing to argue here, we both agree that role playing is a valid reason to use a shield WAR, and we both agree that role playing shouldn't be about math and what's better.

But they you said "I've seen good WAR tanks"(probably with a shield). So it's back to "what's better" argument again. Can you filter out the goal of your argument first?

If you want to argue "what setup is better for WAR tank", explain how shield WAR is a better tank than using other weapons.

If you don't want to argue about what's better due to role playing reason, then no point to continue.

Just because I've played with good warrior tanks doesn't mean I am saying they are better than other types of warriors. Not all of us are constantly trying to compare who is better than who like you are.

I recognize that warriors can be good playing in many different ways. I've played with good Great Axe warriors. I've played with good Sword and Board warriors. I could care less who is better. All I care about is if I'm having fun and winning - which I was in both cases.

[Afania]

Just because I've played with good warrior tanks doesn't mean I am saying they are better than other types of warriors. Not all of us are constantly trying to compare who is better than who like you are.

I recognize that warriors can be good playing in many different ways. I've played with good Great Axe warriors. I've played with good Sword and Board warriors. I could care less who is better. All I care about is if I'm having fun and winning - which I was in both cases.

You're trying to tell others how they can play the game by blaming the community for not accepting a shield WAR though. Which is the same thing.

It seems that you have a lofty goal to "change" the nature of MMO because you believe it's the community that shaped the MMO nowadays, unfortunately it's the other way around.

Players are just sheeps, they simply follow the goals set by the game designer.

If the game designer wants the player to use a shield WAR, just make shield WAR effective like a shield PLD. You'd see everyone and their mother /shouting for a shield WAR in town.

There's nothing you can do to change the community, unless you're the game designer. Shield WAR will always be considered ineffective even if you post 100 pages of stuff here, criticizing anyone with a different opinion.