[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

I'm not encouraging anything except for people not to get annoyed at once another over what I would consider silly reasons.

If a warrior wants to use a shield, then that's his/her choice. No reason to get annoyed at a person over it.

It's also other's choice to feel annoyed though, if Malithar wants to feel annoyed at someone else, it's his freedom and choice.

[Dale]

It's also other's choice to feel annoyed though, if Malithar wants to feel annoyed at someone else, it's his freedom and choice.

I never said he wasn't free or didn't have the choice to be annoyed by it. But I am also free with the choice to think it's silly to let such a small thing annoy you.

[Dale]

Yes, of course you can pay $12 a month and afk 24/7 watching youtube to waste sub, nobody would say a word about it.

You know that if I choose to be a doctor, my job is to save lives. If I don't want to save lives, then I change profession.

The point of playing a DD job, obviously is to do dmg. Equipping a shield on a DD job is choosing to do less dmg for no reason.




I don't think who you pt with is relevant in this discussion though, you're sugar coating everything into "personal preference", which I don't agree with when it comes to MMO. There are little to no room for "personal preference" in MMO.

Of course it's relevant. You can't accuse someone of wasting your time if you don't even have to play with them. And that was the context of why I said that. So I'm not sugar coating anything. Just dispelling these ridiculous claims that because a warrior chooses to use a shield that somehow wastes another player's time. Which is absurd.

Also, comparing a doctor who doesn't want to save lives to a warrior who uses a sword and shield on a video game is just silly. And there is more to being a warrior than just doing the most damage possible to make Afania happy or they need to go change professions. Here is what ffxiclopedia says about warriors:

Specializing in the arts of battle, Warriors (WAR) are masters of all aspects of melee combat. Warrior is a very versatile melee job that can equip almost all of the types of weapons available in the game, and thus can fill a number of different roles in a party. Warriors have the ability to wear heavy armor and tank, protecting their comrades from enemy attacks. They are also masters of the powerhouse Axe and Great Axe weapons and are among the most powerful damage dealers in the game. Players starting the game as a Warrior receive an Onion Sword.

So there you have it. Cleary if SE meant for warriors never under any circumstance to ever use a sword and shield they would not have given them the combat skills Sword and Shield to begin with. Oh, and here is what they actually say on FFXI's main site about the warrior class just for irony.

Specializing in the arts of battle, warriors act as shields, protecting their comrades from the enemy attacks.


So even the word shield is in the Warrior's official description of the warrior class. I just thought that was funny. But anyway, my point is it's not against the warrior's profession to use a shield. So can we please stop with the craziness. If a warrior wants to use a shield, leave him be. It's not that insane...

[Afania]

Of course it's relevant. You can't accuse someone of wasting your time if you don't even have to play with them. And that was the context of why I said that. So I'm not sugar coating anything. Just dispelling these ridiculous claims that because a warrior chooses to use a shield that somehow wastes another player's time. Which is absurd.

Also, comparing a doctor who doesn't want to save lives to a warrior who uses a sword and shield on a video game is just silly. And there is more to being a warrior than just doing the most damage possible to make Afania happy or they need to go change professions. Here is what ffxiclopedia says about warriors:

Specializing in the arts of battle, Warriors (WAR) are masters of all aspects of melee combat. Warrior is a very versatile melee job that can equip almost all of the types of weapons available in the game, and thus can fill a number of different roles in a party. Warriors have the ability to wear heavy armor and tank, protecting their comrades from enemy attacks. They are also masters of the powerhouse Axe and Great Axe weapons and are among the most powerful damage dealers in the game. Players starting the game as a Warrior receive an Onion Sword.

So there you have it. Cleary if SE meant for warriors never under any circumstance to ever use a sword and shield they would not have given them the combat skills Sword and Shield to begin with. Oh, and here is what they actually say on FFXI's main site about the warrior class just for irony.

Specializing in the arts of battle, warriors act as shields, protecting their comrades from the enemy attacks.


So even the word shield is in the Warrior's official description of the warrior class. I just thought that was funny. But anyway, my point is it's not against the warrior's profession to use a shield. So can we please stop with the craziness. If a warrior wants to use a shield, leave him be. It's not that insane...

SE's description is irrelevant to how the job can be played though. They can write anything they want, but if they want warrior to use a shield for real, they'd give WAR Ochain/aegis.

How player choose to play the job is mostly based on game design, if SE want X job to use an axe effectively, they'd give X job a powerful axe WS and high skill rank. "WAR shouldn't use a shield" isn't my personal choice nor preference, it's because SE made shield ineffective for WAR, they designed the game that way. Me(and the majority of the playerbase) just picked a "playstyle" based on SE's design. I find it funny that you continue to push the responsibility on Afania, for not letting other players wearing a shield on WAR. Maybe you should ask SE to let WAR wear a shield instead.

So yeah, SE can write something like "We want SMN to be a melee job" all they want, as long as they don't give SMN proper melee gears/JA, it can't be played as a melee job.

You can argue that "But SE gave WAR ability to equip a shield!" Unfortunately, letting X job wearing something doesn't automatically make it a valid play style.

I can equip Ark tachi on my BLU, it doesn't automatically change my BLU into a GK DD.

[Afania]

I never said he wasn't free or didn't have the choice to be annoyed by it. But I am also free with the choice to think it's silly to let such a small thing annoy you.

Of course you're free to think that way, but you can also choose not to say it.

[Dale]

SE's description is irrelevant to how the job can be played though. They can write anything they want, but if they want warrior to use a shield for real, they'd give WAR Ochain/aegis.

How player choose to play the job is mostly based on game design, if SE want X job to use an axe effectively, they'd give X job a powerful axe WS and high skill rank. "WAR shouldn't use a shield" isn't my personal choice nor preference, it's because SE made shield ineffective for WAR, they designed the game that way. Me(and the majority of the playerbase) just picked a "playstyle" based on SE's design. I find it funny that you continue to push the responsibility on Afania, for not letting other players wearing a shield on WAR. Maybe you should ask SE to let WAR wear a shield instead.

So yeah, SE can write something like "We want SMN to be a melee job" all they want, as long as they don't give SMN proper melee gears/JA, it can't be played as a melee job.

You can argue that "But SE gave WAR ability to equip a shield!" Unfortunately, letting X job wearing something doesn't automatically make it a valid play style.

I can equip Ark tachi on my BLU, it doesn't automatically change my BLU into a GK DD.

Just because something isn't the very best doesn't mean it can't work or get the job done. And since SE made the game and designed the actual job, they are in a better position to describe what it's actual intention is. So instead of arguing with me about it, you should be taking it up with SE. They are the ones who said it, not me.

But in any case, to imply unless you have an ochain or an aegis you aren't suppose to use a shield is pretty extreme. I know a lot of paladins who don't have one of these either. Does that mean paladins suck also if they use one of these lesser shields? You view everything through the very narrow prism of having to be the very best at something else you shouldn't do it. And this is exactly the kind of thinking I feel is destructive to MMORPG game play. Not all jobs are suppose to be very the best at something. Some are designed to be more versatile in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. And certainly doesn't mean they suck or aren't valid play styles as a result.

And your example of comparing a warrior who uses a sword and shield to a summoner who wants to be a melee job is inaccurate to put it mildly. When you offer such exaggerated comparisons as these it really makes me wonder if you are interested in having a reasonable discussion.

[Dale]

Of course you're free to think that way, but you can also choose not to say it.

That's true. But that would kind of defeat my whole purpose of being in this forum if I chose not to give my opinions about things.

Part of my purpose on this forum is to attempt to broaden the perspective of people so players won't look down on or be annoyed by other players just because they play different jobs or in different ways. There needs to be a lot more live and let live in the MMORPGs generally, because it's approaching a very destructive tipping point that is quite frankly ruining the whole genre and reducing the gameplay to a boring comparison of numbers - rather the unique blend of many different and interesting individual play-styles as it should be.

[Kincard]

I'm not going to have any "social troubles" in this game because I have enough people to play with that I'll never have to deal with bad PUGs if I don't want to. I was making the point that there are terrible players out there that have attitudes like yours, and act flippant whenever they're wasting other peoples' time and think they're in the right because "it's just a game". In case you're wondering, that's not me saying if you're a good player or not- I have no idea since I've never played with you. It's about this dispelling attitude people have that other peoples' time is suddenly less valuable when it's for an unimportant activity. That they act defensive about it if I try to give well-meaning advice is just the cherry on top- and since you're continuing to be passive aggressive (a term you don't seem to understand) about it, I should note I've helped many players through this way too, so I think I'll stick with my method of being a mostly no-nonsense sort of person.

Lastly, taking official blurbs for Warrior from back in 2003 or whatever isn't helping you prove anything. Rune Fencer was referred to as the "third" tanking job multiple times since its creation so it's obvious they've long since abandoned the idea of Warrior (and Beastmaster, since they tried that at one point) of being tanks other than for really outleveled content.

[Afania]

Just because something isn't the very best doesn't mean it can't work or get the job done. And since SE made the game and designed the actual job, they are in a better position to describe what it's actual intention is. So instead of arguing with me about it, you should be taking it up with SE. They are the ones who said it, not me.

But in any case, to imply unless you have an ochain or an aegis you aren't suppose to use a shield is pretty extreme. I know a lot of paladins who don't have one of these either. Does that mean paladins suck also if they use one of these lesser shields? You view everything through the very narrow prism of having to be the very best at something else you shouldn't do it. And this is exactly the kind of thinking I feel is destructive to MMORPG game play. Not all jobs are suppose to be very the best at something. Some are designed to be more versatile in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. And certainly doesn't mean they suck or aren't valid play styles as a result.

And your example of comparing a warrior who uses a sword and shield to a summoner who wants to be a melee job is silly. When you offer such exaggerated comparisons as this it really makes me wonder if you are really interested in having a reasonable discussion.

You don't get it, Warrior using a shield isn't "not the best", it's "almost equal to not using a shield". You seems to label everything into "elitist mentality" "wanna be the very best", but that's just not the case with a shield WAR.

I also fail to understand your logic, from what you've just said, you can accept the concept of "SMN shouldn't melee", but you can't accept concept of "WAR shouldn't melee", to a point that you believed it's an extreme comparison.

FYI, WAR has C+ rank shield skill, SMN has B rank staff skill, by SE's written description with skill lv, SMN is a better staff melee job than a shield WAR.

What's so exaggerate about comparing a melee SMN with a shield WAR, when a shield WAR is an even worse example than melee SMN?

To answer your question about Ochain/Aegisless PLD....PLD has access to Priwen, WAR doesn't. PLD has A+ shield skill, WAR doesn't. PLD has better defensive ability, WAR only gets defender.

WAR is designed to be a DD job, asking a DD to use a shield is just wasting the potential and not doing what the job supposed to do.

You kept bringing up "valid" playstyle over and over again....but valid playstyle is supposed to be a playstyle that's effective in certain situation.

For example, if you play RUN, you can choose to play offensively or defensively, defensively= tanking, offensively= do 60%~80% of dmg of SAM, with a lot higher survive-ability.

Both are "valid" playstyle in certain situation, because it's effective.

There are many other "valid" playstyle that's effective.....like SAM using ranged attack when they're weakened, COR can melee or /ra depending on situation, BLU can help cure/erase if mages d/c or not on par, all those are "effective" play-style that works.

If you insist that a shield WAR is a valid playstyle, name a specific situation that shield WAR works better than a GA WAR.

Don't just copy and paste some text from the website and tell everyone "we can play WAR this way", text has nothing to do with the content nor the game design.

It seems that you only believe WAR can use a shield, because you believe that I'm an elitist only aiming for the highest dmg potential, but that wasn't my point. WAR can turtle if they need to, they have many ways to turtle, but using a shield to turtle shouldn't be considered.

[Dale]

I'm not going to have any "social troubles" in this game because I have enough people to play with that I'll never have to deal with bad PUGs if I don't want to. I was making the point that there are terrible players out there that have attitudes like yours, and act flippant whenever they're wasting other peoples' time and think they're in the right because "it's just a game". In case you're wondering, that's not me saying if you're a good player or not- I have no idea since I've never played with you. It's about this dispelling attitude people have that other peoples' time is suddenly less valuable when it's for an unimportant activity. That they act defensive about it if I try to give well-meaning advice is just the cherry on top- and since you're continuing to be passive aggressive (a term you don't seem to understand) about it, I should note I've helped many players through this way too, so I think I'll stick with my method of being a mostly no-nonsense sort of person.

Lastly, taking official blurbs for Warrior from back in 2003 or whatever isn't helping you prove anything. Rune Fencer was referred to as the "third" tanking job multiple times since its creation so it's obvious they've long since abandoned the idea of Warrior (and Beastmaster, since they tried that at one point) of being tanks other than for really outleveled content.

If you have no social troubles on the game then why were you complaining about them to me and blaming my attitude for them? I'm confused.

Anyway, I really don't understand why my opinion it's silly to be annoyed at a warrior for using a shield means is to blame for terrible players being unresponsive to your advice . And I have yet to see you give me a reason I can understand as to why that's the case. All you seem to be able to do is accuse me of being passive aggressive because I don't agree with you.

I've played with warriors who use shields that are good players. They weren't terrible at all.

And I was just using those exerts from SE's site and ffxiclopedia as examples. I wasn't really trying to prove anything beyond the fact that not everyone thinks the same way they do and they need to accept that and stop pushing their own opinions about how a job should be played onto everyone else as if it's the law of the land.