[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

You don't get it, Warrior using a shield isn't "not the best", it's "almost equal to not using a shield". You seems to label everything into "elitist mentality" "wanna be the very best", but that's just not the case with a shield WAR.

I also fail to understand your logic, from what you've just said, you can accept the concept of "SMN shouldn't melee", but you can't accept concept of "WAR shouldn't melee", to a point that you believed it's an extreme comparison.

FYI, WAR has C+ rank shield skill, SMN has B rank staff skill, by SE's written description with skill lv, SMN is a better staff melee job than a shield WAR.

What's so exaggerate about comparing a melee SMN with a shield WAR, when a shield WAR is an even worse example than melee SMN?

To answer your question about Ochain/Aegisless PLD....PLD has access to Priwen, WAR doesn't. PLD has A+ shield skill, WAR doesn't. PLD has better defensive ability, WAR only gets defender.

WAR is designed to be a DD job, asking a DD to use a shield is just wasting the potential and not doing what the job supposed to do.

You kept bringing up "valid" playstyle over and over again....but valid playstyle is supposed to be a playstyle that's effective in certain situation.

For example, if you play RUN, you can choose to play offensively or defensively, defensively= tanking, offensively= do 60%~80% of dmg of SAM, with a lot higher survive-ability.

Both are "valid" playstyle in certain situation, because it's effective.

There are many other "valid" playstyle that's effective.....like SAM using ranged attack when they're weakened, COR can melee or /ra depending on situation, BLU can help cure/erase if mages d/c or not on par, all those are "effective" play-style that works.

If you insist that a shield WAR is a valid playstyle, name a specific situation that shield WAR works better than a GA WAR.

Don't just copy and paste some text from the website and tell everyone "we can play WAR this way", text has nothing to do with the content nor the game design.

It seems that you only believe WAR can use a shield, because you believe that I'm an elitist only aiming for the highest dmg potential, but that wasn't my point. WAR can turtle if they need to, they have many ways to turtle, but using a shield to turtle shouldn't be considered.

There is more to being a melee job than having a weapon skill. Are you actually trying to suggest Summoner is designed to be a melee job in the same warrior is simply because they have a B staff skill and Warrior has a C shield skill? This is exactly the kind of reasoning I am talking about that makes me doubt you are interesting in having a serious discussion.

And I didn't even mention the word elitist once in that post you are quoting. So you are the one obsessing over this label. Not me.

The truth is your entire post makes my point for me and you don't even realize it. You keep saying give me one example where a Shield war works better than a GW war? Everything has to be better or the best else players shouldn't do it. That's the issue.

MMORPG gameplay was never meant to be about a comparison of numbers to see what way is best and everything else sucks and should not be done. And just because something isn't or may not be the best doesn't mean it is not a valid way to play.

I disagree with you. SE disagrees with you. ffxiclopedia disagrees with you. There is more to the warrior class than just using a great axe. They can be played in different ways. You need to just accept this simple fact and stop trying to push your own very limited view about how the job should be played on to everyone else.

[Afania]

That's true. But that would kind of defeat my whole purpose of being in this forum if I chose not to give my opinions about things.

Part of my purpose on this forum is to attempt to broaden the perspective of people so players won't look down on or be annoyed by other players just because they play different jobs or in different ways. There needs to be a lot more live and let live in the MMORPGs generally, because it's approaching a very destructive tipping point that is quite frankly ruining the whole genre and reducing the gameplay to a boring comparison of numbers - rather the unique blend of many different and interesting individual play-styles as it should be.

You didn't broaden ppl's perspective, as I said in previous posts....I'm not against different playstyle, but the only way to make different playstyle work is to design the game that way.

I adapt different playstyle all the time, I've used like 11 different SJ on COR in my life, /WAR /WHM /BLM /RDM /RNG /SAM /NIN /DRG /BLU /SCH /DNC, I can probably name a few situational use for /SMN as well. I still use /WHM /DNC /DRG and /NIN pretty actively, others not so much. Every SJ is a completely different playstyle that's effective for certain situation, not all of them are about "the best dmg!" So it's certainly a biased opinion if you think I just want da best dmg with a narrow minded POV toward playstyle.

In all those shield WAR argument, you've never actually tell us WHY a WAR should use a shield, except "SE said so in 2003!" or "it's just a playstyle!"

Should I play BLU/MNK not equipping any weapon and tell everyone "I want to play BLU fighting bare fists like Kung Fu panda because that's my playstyle!"

That's more like role playing, not playstyle.

[Dale]

You didn't broaden ppl's perspective, as I said in previous posts....I'm not against different playstyle, but the only way to make different playstyle work is to design the game that way.

I adapt different playstyle all the time, I've used like 11 different SJ on COR in my life, /WAR /WHM /BLM /RDM /RNG /SAM /NIN /DRG /BLU /SCH /DNC, I can probably name a few situation use for /SMN as well. I still use /WHM /DNC /DRG and /NIN pretty actively, others not so much. Every SJ is a completely different playstyle that's effective for certain situation, not all of them are about "the best dmg!" So it's certainly a biased opinion if you think I just want da best dmg with a narrow minded POV toward playstyle.

In all those shield WAR argument, you've never actually tell us WHY a WAR should use a shield, except "SE said so in 2003!" or "it's just a playstyle!"

Should I play BLU/MNK not equipping any weapon and tell everyone "I want to play BLU fighting bare fists like Kung Fu panda because that's my playstyle!"

That's more like role playing, instead of a playstyle.

MMORPGs are about Role Playing. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing game.

And if you can't even accept that a warrior may choose to use a shield and not be annoyed by it, then I maintain my original point that you are against different playstyles and need to learn to be more tolerant of other players.

[Afania]

There is more to being a melee job than having a weapon skill. Are you actually trying to suggest Summoner is designed to be a melee job in the same warrior is simply because they have a B staff skill and Warrior has a C shield skill? This is exactly the kind of reasoning I am talking about that makes me doubt you are interesting in having a serious discussion.

And I didn't even mention the word elitist once in that post you are quoting. So you are the one obsessing over this label. Not me.

The truth is your entire post makes my point for me and you don't even realize it. You keep saying give me one example where a Shield war works better than a GW war? Everything has to be better or the best else players shouldn't do it. That's the issue.

MMORPG gameplay was never meant to be about a comparison of numbers to see what way is best and everything else sucks and should not be done. And just because something isn't or may not be the best doesn't mean it is not a valid way to play.

I disagree with you. SE disagrees with you. ffxiclopedia disagrees with you. There is more to the warrior class than just using a great axe. They can be played in different ways. You need to just accept this simple fact and stop trying to push your own very limited view about how the job should be played on to everyone else.

SE didn't disagree with me, lol. Cuz if they did, they'd do so with game design, by making a shield WAR more effective.

There's also a lot more than using a shield effectively than writing a wall of text on ffxiclopedia. It seems that you still insist that WAR should use a shield because the text said so, instead of actually telling me why a WAR should.

I suppose if I hack into ffxiclopedia website and change the description of SMN into "A melee mage fighting with avatars", you'd agree that SMN should be a melee job, because the text said so.

WAR has other weapon options, such as GS, axe, or even club. Depending on situation, there's a reason to use those options.

You still fail to tell us a valid reason for a WAR to use a shield though, except "MMO shouldn't be about what's better"

So what IS better in a MMO? If you don't agree with me, you tell me. Don't just deny everyone else's opinion.

[Dale]

SE didn't disagree with me, lol. Cuz if they did, they'd do so with game design, by making a shield WAR more effective. (snip)

It seems that you still insist that WAR should use a shield because the text said so, instead of actually telling me why a WAR should.

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

[Afania]

MMORPGs are about Role Playing. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing game.

And if you can't even accept that a warrior may choose to use a shield and not be annoyed by it, then I maintain my original point that you are against different playstyles and need to learn to be more tolerant of other players.

I'm not against role playing in a MMORPG, but role playing is not the same as playstyle.

I agree that role playing is a legit reason to use a shield on WAR, yes.

But I don't agree that it's a "playstyle", no.

You need to see the difference between a playstyle(a way to play the job that's effective and produce a noticeable result) and role playing.

Also, I'm not against players role playing, but they shouldn't join other ppl's event if they want to role play, that's the point. The current game content in FFXI mostly don't design for role playing gameplay.

If ppl want to role play, they should ask SE to design contents/events that reward players role play, instead of complaining about the community "only want to be the best". The community just play the game as intended.

[Afania]

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

SE gave my BLU GK access via ark tachi as well, I suppose that means SE wants BLU to use a GK?

If SE really want WAR to use a shield, they'd do more than letting them to wear a shield. They'd make a shield WAR a lot more effective as a tank.

I don't tell others how they should play, I only point out mathematically effective way to play certain jobs. Ultimately, it's other ppl's freedom to choose a less effective way.

However, I can't do anything to change certain playstyle from ineffective to effective. Only SE can do that.

[Dale]

I'm not against role playing in a MMORPG, but role playing is not the same as playstyle.

I agree that role playing is a legit reason to use a shield on WAR, yes.

But I don't agree that it's a "playstyle", no.

You need to see the difference between a playstyle(a way to play the job that's effective and produce a noticeable result) and role playing.

Also, I'm not against players role playing, but they shouldn't join other ppl's event if they want to role play, that's the point. The current game content in FFXI mostly don't design for role playing gameplay.

If ppl want to role play, they should ask SE to design contents/events that reward players role play, instead of complaining about the community "only want to be the best". The community just play the game as intended.

Again: if SE never intended for Warrior to use a sword and shield they would have never given them sword and shield combat skills and Swords and Shields they can use.

Warriors are intended to be a versatile melee job capable of using many different weapons. That is how SE designed them. This opinion of yours that they should only use Great Axes else never join a group or do any content outside of what you refer to as role playing is just your own narrow opinion.

If you don't want to play with a warrior who uses a shield then don't. No one is forcing you to. But there is no good reason to get annoyed at those who do.

[Dale]

SE gave my BLU GK access via ark tachi as well, I suppose that means SE wants BLU to use a GK?

If SE really want WAR to use a shield, they'd do more than letting them to wear a shield. They'd make a shield WAR a lot more effective as a tank.

I don't tell others how they should play, I only point out mathematically effective way to play certain jobs. Ultimately, it's other ppl's freedom to choose a less effective way.

However, I can't do anything to change certain playstyle from ineffective to effective. Only SE can do that.

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

And if you want to use a great katana on your BLU go for it. I won't hold it against you.

[Afania]

Again: if SE never intended for Warrior to use a sword and shield they would have never given them sword and shield combat skills and Swords and Shields they can use.

Can you answer my last question first? Lol. SE also gave my BLU Ark Tachi access, does that means SE want BLU to use a GK?

I've played with some good warrior tanks. Just the fact you haven't, doesn't mean they aren't out there or that SE never meant for them to ever play as a tank. Perhaps if you were more tolerant of who you play with you would see a greater variety of players.

And its good you don't tell others how they should play. Though I should point out you have been doing exactly that through out this entire discussion.

I've played with MNK tank, BLU tank, NIN tank, SAM tank, and pretty much every DD job tanking stuff without a shield, so?

Of course WAR can tank, but WAR tanking without a shield can probably produce similar or better end result as not using a shield, that's my point.

Yes I've play with WAR tank, without a shield as well. Anything a WAR can tank with a shield, they can probably tank better without it. Tanking is more than just turtle.

I also don't understand why you insist that I'm the one telling how others to play the job. I don't work for SE. If I work for SE, I'd actually want to make shield WAR more effective.

Again, if you insist that shield war is a valid play style, perhaps you should ask your friend to reply here and explain why, cuz atm I feel this discussion isn't going anywhere.