[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Byrth]

I am pretty confident that good players could beat normal mode fights with decent gear despite playing inefficiently. It would not shock me in the least to see a bunch of WHM/NINs meleeburn every N fight and probably quite a few D ones too. Or shield WARs and bow SAM/RNGs. However, there is absolutely no incentive to shout for such a player.

There is a major lack of organizers in the NA community on Lakshmi right now, to the extent that I get people joining my shouts regularly without comments because they just have nothing else to do. It is a shouter's market, so why shout for or accept a pink THF that offhands Ridll because he wrestled it from the clutches of the mighty wyrm Fafnir? Might as well get someone else and ensure that the other 6 players in your group have a better experience as a result.

[Dale]

I am pretty confident that good players could beat normal mode fights with decent gear despite playing inefficiently. It would not shock me in the least to see a bunch of WHM/NINs meleeburn every N fight and probably quite a few D ones too. Or shield WARs and bow SAM/RNGs. However, there is absolutely no incentive to shout for such a player.

There is a major lack of organizers in the NA community on Lakshmi right now, to the extent that I get people joining my shouts regularly without comments because they just have nothing else to do. It is a shouter's market, so why shout for or accept a pink THF that offhands Ridll because he wrestled it from the clutches of the mighty wyrm Fafnir? Might as well get someone else and ensure that the other 6 players in your group have a better experience as a result.

Not even normal fights to aid in your point. I've done difficult mode battlefields with a pair of dragoons before.

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

[Afania]

Not even normal fights to aid in your point. I've done difficult mode battlefields with a pair of dragoons before.

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

[Dale]

Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

[Afania]

But it was a good example. From all you have said, unless someone helps you as efficiently and quickly as possible you view it as a punishment. And to touch on what you said, even if you had two choices for a drive to work - one in a Ferrari and another in a station wagon... it doesn't really matter. The person driving you to work in a station wagon is still doing you a favor and it's faster than walking your butt to work. So to view someone helping you as punishment because you had better choices is still extremely misguided - to use a mild term.

And if you want me to stop thinking you always want the fastest set up possible, then you should probably stop putting such an emphasis on it. All I ever read from you on these forums is spreadsheets and dps and how players should do the most damage as possible else they are punishing other players, a leech, and should be barred from all activity outside of role play. So the only one to blame for my impressions of how you think is yourself.

It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.

No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

[Malithar]

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

[Dale]

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

I was trying to make a more general point based off what you said but not limited to your specific situation. If that makes any sense to you.

There is a lot of intolerance on MMORPGs these days toward players experimenting with and using a variety of different play styles. And part of why I spend my time on this forum is to combat that. So I'm sorry if you felt I unfairly signaled you out, derailed the thread, or psychoanalyzed you. That was not my intention.

I used to play regularly with a warrior who used a shield. She was a Japanese player and very good and I was able to complete a lot of content with her. So warriors who use shields do not automatically suck and therefore legitimate targets for annoyance (I'm not saying you said that, just making that clear). And that was what I was trying to get across.

There are a lot of players out there who play in unusual ways yet succeed at it. So I am advising people to give them a chance before they assume things about them, judge them, or become annoyed by them. That was basically my point.

As far as me wanting to get the last word: all you have to do is clarify that you won't let the mere fact a warrior chooses to play with a shield annoy you and I'll be happy to give you the last word ^^

[Glamdring]

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing. all I said is that when you hopefully swap into that defensive set a shield has utility-an extra 30 defense can help a lot and many shields have -dmg on them as well. Once a cure lands on you, you swap back to whatever set you normally play in, and for most Wars that's likely a GAxe and a grip (seeing a dual-wielding war at 119 is extremely rare) so a shield is impossible. But if you are going to need a few seconds longer than usual (whm mid-cast or low MP or TP on healers) it might be the difference that keeps you alive long enough for them to cure you. I remember leveling war in the old days and I was tanking-until level 30 when all ability to tank pretty much dried up. From that point on, war tanking is pretty much confined to giving the nin time to put shadows back up, allowing a pld to cure themselves, or voking off a pt member who CANNOT take the hit when hate control hits the fan-especially healers or support people-and then only until the tank can take it back, and you wouldn't swap in a shield there unless the fan is fully hit.

no, the only time I would switch to a shield fulltime as a war is going to be when you find out you made a BIG mistake picking that enemy and are hoping to survive by a miracle. IF you live, you don't make that mistake again, fight something else and should only need it if you are waiting on a cure, like soloing with trusts, and that is a swapping situation again.

[Afania]

Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing.

We knew that, and we've been saying that a WAR using a shield is extremely ineffective...if you're dying with a GA, you're probably gonna die with a shield anyways.....while making the fight last longer and WHM harder to keep the DD alive.

[Olor]

Please, lets not lump players that make dumb choices (single handed weapon & shield war) to players that play jobs that SE has given the shaft to. They are two different things.