[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Byrth]

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

[Afania]

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

Alhanelem's argument isn't "unsupported arguement", it's just based on different design fundamental as yours. The point of defending for merit point system is to mimic how real life works, which is "a master scientist can't be a master baseball player". Without merit point system, current FFXI game system fail to simulate such facet of real life because it's much easier to obtain very good gear and skill to be good at multiple jobs, as long as you have time to invest.

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

If one day census shows that every_single_player do exactly same merit, then maybe "merit point is useless design" is a legit argument....once everyone makes the same choice there's no reason to give the player option to choose anymore. Until then players still make different choices, which is fact.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

Torclever is terrible, and GSD has nothing else available, and Scythe is pretty much a utility weapon at this point. As your job is a DD, how do you expect to perform your job as a DD to the fullest of your ability without having a solid DD WS? Is that just it, you don't expect to perform to the fullest of your ability, and you settle for mediocrity? Not trying to be insulting, but that's a really terrible example to give for the benefit of your argument.

Since "role playing element" should come first, then the right way to solve this issue is to buff existing/2nd best WS so they can catch up, and keep the role playing element in this game. Now you're saying merit point system/role playing element shouldn't exist because SE didn't do a good job balancing it, but it should be other way around.

Furthermore, I'd argue it actually is quite a crippling system. Lets take a hypothetical mage only character that decides to level a DD job, lets say Rng. Being mage only, they've stuck their merits into Mnd, Int, Club, Staff, defensive skills, and idk, sword or something for a Rdm, as well as 5/5ing the corresponding WSs. Cool beans. Now lets bring that Rng to a VD fight. They're missing 12 Str/Agi merits, 8 weapon merits, and a stronger WS (barring relic, ignore enmity for this example.) That may not sound like much, but that's giving them a lower fStr, lower accuracy, less WS damage, and less RAtt. Without removing merits from their mage jobs, they're stuck without these benefits. I'm not going to say this Rng is now crippled and incapable of doing said content. But should they really be hindered for their choices in merits? Is that really something you believe is fair?

This is actually not a very convincing example for ppl defending for merit point system For ppl like me and Alhanelem who value role playing element more than anything else, the above example is exactly what we wanted: a player who choose to be a pro mage with high MND/INT/club will be bad at archery.

This isn't a matter of "fair", it's not like this game is PVP game and if you deal less dmg than another RNG you get low ranking. This is life, a mage that's smart and spend entire life studying and get smarter (higher INT)shouldn't be strong enough to deal good dmg with a bow(lower STR). If you want the game to be perfectly "fair", then there's no point to play a RPG at all. Games like FTG or RTS are perfectly "fair" that character performance is separate by skill, not stat. Games like RPG should let players live another life in a game though.

On the other hand, there's almost 0 reason to be perfectly "fair" in FFXI. A RNG without 12 STR/AGI merit and do less dmg, won't be in that much of a disadvantage. He can still complete the content. There's no PVP/recommendation/ranking system in FFXI either. He may have harder time to complete the content that needs RNG but that's only because current content design doesn't benefit mage main(nukers such as BLM SCH isn't main DD) so he can't get advantage as a mage main, not because there's a flaw in merit point system.

Anyways, it seems that ppl who doesn't want merit point system can't grasp the idea of role playing element in a MMORPG, so there's no point to argue about this subject anymore IMO. You can argue that role playing doesn't work in MMO because of optimization mentality, this is actually a whole other subject.....even games with 1 single class has balance issue with talent tree, all the time. There's always "most efficient/popular choice" in any RPG, even if the choice is there. However, last time when I play a game that removed choice making completely(FFXIV, I'm looking at you) I have 0 fun in it even if it's completely "fair" when it comes to class performance. I'd rather play a game with merit point system/talent tree and not perfectly balanced, than another game that removes such aspect completely. You can't ask the dev to erase the role playing element from a MMORPG just because merit point is hard to balance.

[Alhanelem]

Between optimization or not optimizing. What's the logical choice?

Your choice is between optimizing one job and optimizing another. But if you really want to not optimize anything, that's an option too, I suppose.

Also, some of us are not as crazy hardcore as you are and are not super concerned with putting out the absolute greatest numbers and one-upping the rest of the party, as long as they're able to win the content. Some play play a bit more relaxed (But that also doesn't mean they aren't capable). However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

---

I'm still not convinced that there is such a huge gap between the merit WS and the next best possible option (Which, even if there is, the whole system is going to be undergoing revisions soon, so any argument we're having about it could be moot- Ignoring people's cynicism about how SE will change the older WS). I'm also not convinced that the difference between a 1/5 and 5/5 WS is significant enough to majorly alter your DPS over a fight or affect your ability to play content. Odds are, if you have the WS at all, nobody's going to be paying attention to exactly how much damage you do with it- so unless you're playing with the most elite of elitists, nobody's going to notice you haven't fully upgraded it.

As I've said before, I wouldn't mind if they increased the WS limit as I think it's a bit too restrictive atm (and I'm sure everyone would love that). I only don't feel that it should be uncapped entirely.

In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.

Also, every other game pretty much lets you play every class. FFXI just makes it much more convenient to do so by allowing you to do it with a single identity. Should those games have all their customization options removed, since being able to play all classes apparently means you have to be allowed to be the best at everything?

I would honestly be more bothered if the decisions you have to make couldn't be undone. But they can be. And while its a bit of a hassle, it is not in any way difficult to remove your merits from something and then upgrade something else- something I've done on a few occasions after regretting my choices.

Personally, I like making choices about my character. But it doesn't seem like anyone else does. I don't feel my ability to be the best PUP should be limited to gear obtainment (especially since everyone who wants to play a job will probably get the best or near the best gear for it eventually). If that's my favorite job, I should be able to customize my character to favor that job. I also play other jobs when necesary, and I can still play those jobs. I'm just better at this job because it's my favorite. (In fact, in most content I end up using something else. I use my SCH, DNC, SMN, DRK and GEO all the time even though my stat merits are for STR and my Others merits favor melee combat. Have I been prevented from using those jobs by my merit choices? Absolutely not. The merit system has successfully enhanced my favorite job, whilst not preventing me from using others when necessary.)

[Byrth]

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

Au contraire. My actual argument is that attempting to impose "reality" on our job system in the final throes (aka the merit point system) is a waste of time. The job system is inherently un-limiting. Applying caps late in the game just doesn't make any logical sense and runs contrary to FFXI's Level 1 design principles.

Example: The job system and current exclusionary events indicate that we're supposed to be versatile characters so that we can take part in the content that is released. The limiting merit system discourages us from becoming more versatile and encourages us to specialize. These are obviously running at cross purposes.

If one day census shows that every_single_player do exactly same merit, then maybe "merit point is useless design" is a legit argument....once everyone makes the same choice there's no reason to give the player option to choose anymore. Until then players still make different choices, which is fact.

This depends strongly on what you think of as "every single player". Something like 70% of the level 12 stats in 2012 were STR. Is it safe to say that "every single player" had 12 STR merits? No, but c'moooon. The data doesn't provide any information on how many people are actually at the merit cap, which makes it difficult to answer any relevant questions with it, but it looks like people overwhelmingly merit the same thing in essentially every single category that matters.

Here is a response to a similar post:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/118...=1#post6124375



By the way, a supported argument would offer evidence to support it. In this case, it would need to offer evidence that keeping a limited merit system notably improves the average player's gaming experience.

[Alhanelem]

By the way, a supported argument would offer evidence to support it. In this case, it would need to offer evidence that keeping a limited merit system notably improves the average player's gaming experience.

There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

A more reasonable thing to measure is if there is a meaningful amount of variation in merit point combinations in use. The problem here is the only data we are given by SE lumps everything together. You can only see the total amount of people with one or more levels of each merit. You can't see all the individual combinations in use. Attribute category for example isnt a great measurement because there are more melee-based (STR) jobs than ranged jobs (DEX, INT) or support/specialist jobs (MND/AGI/CHR). So if everyone set their attribtue merits for the one and only job they play most, I would expect to see more STR merits than other merits. But this doesn't mean everybody plays STR based jobs nor does it mean nobody uses other combinations. (e.g. if your true love is mages and you don't use melee DDs or tanks much, you're not going to merit STR)

[Malithar]

However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

That's pretty much borderline insulting, for someone who deleted their response to someone for calling you a moron. There's a rather large difference between "absolute perfection" and "wanting to play each and every job to the same ability." I don't need your pity, and I'd imagine most other's that strive to at least hit what they feel is a good level of play for a quality player don't need it either.

If you're missing an HQ piece or two or 4 and missing -4 stats, I don't care, and I don't care that I'm missing those. Are you using a WS that's doing less than 70% of what another WS you could unlock as 1/5 could do as a Drk? /kicked Are you a DD that's more apt at pushing air around with your weapon than hitting a mob? /kicked

There's a certain degree of gear/skill that most put into and bring with a given job that they play. Ever see a Whm that can keep everyone topped off just fine, knows how to manage AF3+2 legs correctly and very rarely over cures? How about when they keep Dia II up full time, boost spells up full time, and properly manage a Haste cycle? -Na's before people even ask? That's a good player. Now that's Whm, their degree of skill comes more from management of resources, IE, MP, spells, gear.

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.

I'm viewing Afania's argument better than your's simply because at least his has a point, as silly as it is. Your's is simply "they're choices, bonuses, and you're capable of doing anything and everything without them," which isn't incorrect per-se, but if that's the honest case, why divide the playerbase on their purpose and include them anyways?

Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.

That's seriously your retort to an MMO with a job selection system as varied as XI's? Lemme rephrase then. In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree, unless you're too lazy to level more useful/fun jobs, cause you're obviously in tune with the game's variable job system. Did I hit the mark that time?

[Alhanelem]

That's pretty much borderline insulting, for someone who deleted their response to someone for calling you a moron.

How is that an insult to you? and what business is it of yours if i changed my mind about responding to a rude post? (Which, by the way, was the right thing to do)

There's a rather large difference between "absolute perfection" and "wanting to play each and every job to the same ability."

Actually, there isn't much of a difference: you're demanding maximum ability on every single job (the very definition of what you said). You have zero willingness to compromise, you're not willing to sacrifice a single point of damage on one job to gain one on another, even though it will have virtually zero impact on each job's playability. In other words, you want all of us and everybody to be exactly the same. I would prefer it if every player had their own chosen strengths and weaknesses, it's what makes us unique and it's also what lets us shine at what we really want to do. I don't know anyone who plays all 22 jobs equally and doesn't have a favorite they'd prefer to play more often than the others.

Why do you NEED to "play each and every job to the same ability? Why does it matter that XYZ job you're not currently playing and don't use much isn't at the same exact level of performance (not that the game is balanced that well in the first place)

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs)

You're very likely missing out on little else other than a couple main stat points and a small percentage on your WS modifier. Not a major impact by any stretch of the imagination as long as you're gearing your jobs properly (which you covered in talking about sets).

FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, people who gear their jobs up well enough for the content they are playing will, skill willing, perform close enough to other people who play the same job that it doesn't significantly matter who does it. Merits allow customization and do not deny you the ability to play a job to a level where nobody would be able to tell that you didn't merit for it.

I'm not sure why you think I don't have a point, as I've made several. My point is I like and want the customization that the merit system offers. I WANT to be better at some jobs and worse in others. I want my merit build to reflect my individuality and my favorite aspects of the job system. I could really care less if my weapon skill on DRK does 100 less damage than yours- If I need to use the job, it will work well enough to get the job done. I would prefer this varied environment to a sterile one where everyone is exactly the same.

Unfortunately, this is two circles of thought that pretty much can't coexist. The desire to customize and play to one's strengths vs the desire to be the best at everything. We can fight over it til the cows come home, you're not changing your mind nor will I change mine. I doubt we'll come to any sort of understanding here, so I'll leave it here, while I go play my job I didn't merit specifically for in Delve and perform just fine.

[Byrth]

There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

Why do I need data to support my arguments, which were basically:
1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in
2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)
3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

All three of my points are just logical outgrowths of looking at the game, don't make any unwarranted assumptions about the average player's experience (having more to do = good), and don't really require a survey of the playerbase to support them. Of course, if we were going to survey the playerbase, it's fairly obvious that it would be supported. Is this the most "liked" post on the NA forums? I'm not sure, but it has got to be up there. Meanwhile, posts to the contrary garner something like 0-1 "like." Basically, if this was a idea-popularity contest then uncapping the merit system wins.

[Afania]

Au contraire. My actual argument is that attempting to impose "reality" on our job system in the final throes (aka the merit point system) is a waste of time. The job system is inherently un-limiting.

I don't agree, and this is just your personal opinion, that you wanted to force your own ideal job system on to FFXI's. I think FFXI with merit point system and +/- on the stats works perfectly fine.

If you want to talk about design philosophy and removing "unnecessary" portion of the game, I can argue that dev should remove lv1~lv99 first and let everyone jump straight to endgame.

It works, and it'd work better than current FFXI. But the role playing element would be gone and make the game less interesting. Merit point system is the same.

Example: The job system and current exclusionary events indicate that we're supposed to be versatile characters so that we can take part in the content that is released. The limiting merit system discourages us from becoming more versatile and encourages us to specialize. These are obviously running at cross purposes.

All the content are still doable without having capped merit though, it didn't "discourage" the player to play certain job just because your stat is 12 lower than another player. The gap between merit point WS and the 2nd best option is a bigger issue, and that needs to be fixed. But not through removing merit point system.

This depends strongly on what you think of as "every single player". Something like 70% of the level 12 stats in 2012 were STR. Is it safe to say that "every single player" had 12 STR merits? No, but c'moooon. The data doesn't provide any information on how many people are actually at the merit cap, which makes it difficult to answer any relevant questions with it, but it looks like people overwhelmingly merit the same thing in essentially every single category that matters.

Huh, if I'm lving a mage only character or a mage mule, I probably won't merit STR, ever.

[Xantavia]

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.

What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.