[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Demonjustin]

This is a defect of the hardcore playerbase (which is mostly all that is left in the game at this point) being perfectionist/elitist rather than a defect of the system, in my opinion. Your typical run of the mill player who doesn't care if he's winning a parsing contest will still get enough damage out of a merit WS with less than 5 points for it to be worth using.

Sometimes it's not about a parse, but viability and victory. Extra damage in some cases such as Tojil for instance can mean the difference between a win and a loss, kill to slowly and you fail due to stun resistance that only becomes an issue when your damage overall is too slow to kill. Making a weapon skill weaker by taking merits out of it for other WSs which will also be on the weaker end can aid failure in this way. As for viability I'm referring to something along the lines of how Req is hardly ever the best WS for RDM, CDC almost always beats it as a WS and if you have fewer merits in Req you're only going to see Req's gap become larger and larger with fewer places to make use of it.

I don't mean to say that 1/5 WSs don't have a place or that they're not at all worth doing but even some of the on this forum seem to be in the mindset of having only 3 5/5 WSs and simply re-meriting them to another WS if need be. I know many people in game who do this as well. I won't say everyone does but I've met enough players both casual and hardcore who stick to the idea of 5/5 only to say that I honestly believe the idea of leaving it as it is right now is only going to leave us with a flawed system that few are happy with.

While it also may be a defect or flaw with the hardcore players in your opinion I honestly find it more a defect with the game, as many people have pointed out in the past the great advantage to this game so few others have is that all jobs and all possibilities are open to any character. Merits however are the exact opposite of that idea, restricting the freedom of players and instead forcing strict choices upon them and as a result we've narrowed most merits down to right & wrong choices with Merit WSs being the most difficult choice to make and truly only being dependant on the jobs you play or favor most. I honestly think that Job Points are a step in the right direction in this field in a way since they are unlimited unlike merit points, allowing us to cap every category at will provided we are willing to farm the points necessary to do so. They are also taking that sort of path with HP/MP/Merit, merits. We will be able to cap all things within those categories which I personally think is another example of moving in that direction of complete freedom to optimize at will rather than restricting us to making choices that will almost certainly leave some choices unchosen.

Honestly I'm going to wager that they plan to bring up existing WS to the power level of most of the merit WS so choosing a WS will be more about the additional effects, skillchain attributes, and other things rather than the raw damage value.

As much as I'd like this to be the case, I doubt it will happen. With how WS Mods work unless they almost completely removed them from making much of a difference I doubt it would even be possible to truly balance their DMG, at best I think we'd see more of what we see now where in some situations one WS wins and in another situations a different one wins with the only real differences between the situations being the mob and your buffs.

[Alhanelem]

Sometimes it's not about a parse, but viability and victory.

And I would argue those WS are still able to produce "viability and victory" with less than 5 points in them. How is this not about a parse, lol? 2150 damage vs 2100 when your auto attack remains the same is very unlikely to alter your chance of winning. I did make up those numbers, but the point i'm trying to convey is that the difference between maxed out and not maxed out is not very big.

While it also may be a defect or flaw with the hardcore players in your opinion I honestly find it more a defect with the game,

This is mostly a matter of perspective. You, like other people that tend to frequent a game's forums, are likely a more serious player than the average and demand a higher standard than necessary to achieve your goals (there's nothing wrong with that per se, I'm just making a point). This system does not restrict you from playing any job, literally or effectively. You dont' need 5/5 in every WS to be able to use them and get worthwhile results. There's a difference between that and not being able to play the job-a difference as wide and deep as the grand canyon.

As much as I'd like this to be the case, I doubt it will happen.

They said they intend to rebalance older WS, there would be no point in doing so if it didn't make at least one or two other WS per weapon viable for content. If it doesn't, it would be a totally wasted effort, so in this case I'll choose optimistic over cynical.

[Alhanelem]

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

Still waiting for the game to "shatter the mold."

There are game design reasons when you don't just let everyone get all of everything. Making decisions about your character (or party in a single player game) is supposed to be one of the elements of challenge, fun, and creativity in an RPG. Over the years though, decisions have been gradually getting stripped from just about every MMO in existence. You see a lot more people creating nonsensical names for their avatars because they can just pay to change them later. You see people making hasty decisions about their appearance because they can pay to change it later. People feel compelled to get every item for every job because the game lets them even though they don't have to. Letting people have everything creates as many problems as it solves. In most single player RPGs you have to make a decision at every turn, a decision that affects the outcome of a battle, a decision that affects the story, and a decision that irrevocably changes your characters. But put those things in an online RPG and everyone will beg for it to be removed. Why is this? can people just not handle decision making?

bla bla bla bla bla. You don't need to be the best at all 22 jobs, but that also doesn't mean you can't actually use all 22 of them. Why not enjoy choosing a path for your character instead of resenting the fact that a decision needs to be made?

Hell, I chose to be a Galka. Then I chose to be a summoner. Back when the game was new, you can predict the crap I got for doing that. Now, nobody cares. I can do my job just as well as any other SMN, and I can assure you my merits are probably not the same as yours. I chose to "waste" my merits on certain WS. Suprise! I can still play as my SCH or DNC or DRK if I really want to.

[Camiie]

Still waiting for the game to "shatter the mold."

I hear there's this one MMO from a bit over a decade ago that let's you level all classes on a single character. It was a pretty groundbreaking concept at the time.

There are game design reasons when you don't just let everyone get all of everything. Making decisions about your character (or party in a single player game) is supposed to be one of the elements of challenge, fun, and creativity in an RPG. Over the years though, decisions have been gradually getting stripped from just about every MMO in existence. You see a lot more people creating nonsensical names for their avatars because they can just pay to change them later. You see people making hasty decisions about their appearance because they can pay to change it later. People feel compelled to get every item for every job because the game lets them even though they don't have to. Letting people have everything creates as many problems as it solves. In most single player RPGs you have to make a decision at every turn, a decision that affects the outcome of a battle, a decision that affects the story, and a decision that irrevocably changes your characters. But put those things in an online RPG and everyone will beg for it to be removed. Why is this? can people just not handle decision making?

bla bla bla bla bla. You don't need to be the best at all 22 jobs, but that also doesn't mean you can't actually use all 22 of them. Why not enjoy choosing a path for your character instead of resenting the fact that a decision needs to be made?

Hell, I chose to be a Galka. Then I chose to be a summoner. Back when the game was new, you can predict the crap I got for doing that. Now, nobody cares. I can do my job just as well as any other SMN, and I can assure you my merits are probably not the same as yours. I chose to "waste" my merits on certain WS. Suprise! I can still play as my SCH or DNC or DRK if I really want to.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

[Ramzi]

Dumb question, but how is a party leader going to know if you are lying if you say "yes, I have 5/5 Shijin Spiral" but in reality you only have 3/5... or even 1/5. The max multiplier is 85% and min is 73%. With enemy defenses and randomness thrown in, I wouldn't think it would be THAT noticeable. Especially considering they don't know how much dex you have at any given time. I guess my point is, if you are worried about elitists not inviting you for not having maxed merit WS just lie about it. No party leader should be that picky anyway, and it will not make the difference between winning and losing Tojil. If it does, you are deficient in other areas.

[Byrth]

Malithar just laid out Argument B2 from this thread.

[Nappy]

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?

[Alhanelem]

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?

Well, it does depend on the WS and what its used against. The real question is: is the weapon skill ever the best choice without the upgrades? I'd say most of the time, it's still good enough to be king (at least until the WS revamps depending on what they do).

I personally do agree with your message, that the WS are plenty functional without the upgrades and that the upgrades aren't likely to determine the outcome of a fight. But some people, we'll call them "perfectionists," are not satisfied until they've milked every single potential point of damage possible, whether it's necesary or not. There's nothing wrong with that, really, just pointing out that the revisions they made likely satisfied some people but not others.

[detlef]

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?

Totally agree. That damage is completely insignificant over the course of a long fight with dozens upon dozens of weapon skills.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

I disagree. Other players should be restricted from improving their characters beyond what I'm willing to do. Why should they be able to merit more weapon skills just because they have the time and inclination to do so? I'm glad barriers are in place to prevent this. As it is, the few unpopular jobs I've leveled have never been turned away from current content (like voidwatch) based on my choice of merits. Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

This is how MMOs were meant to be. Fun is all about making compromises and concessions.

[Malithar]

Totally agree. That damage is completely insignificant over the course of a long fight with dozens upon dozens of weapon skills.

I disagree. Other players should be restricted from improving their characters beyond what I'm willing to do. Why should they be able to merit more weapon skills just because they have the time and inclination to do so? I'm glad barriers are in place to prevent this. As it is, the few unpopular jobs I've leveled have never been turned away from current content (like voidwatch) based on my choice of merits. Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

This is how MMOs were meant to be. Fun is all about making compromises and concessions.

Been up for too long when I didn't see the sarcasm til the bolded. D: